Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[Pa...]]

Spitfire, you need a pill cutter, and a nailfile and a tweezers and the scale.  I just weigh a 2mg tablet, which each weigh about 160mg with the filler, then divide that number in half, so 80mg, then i divide it by 7 and cut little pieces till i get the exact weight i want.  I just started cutting by 1\7th as at first I was going 1mg every 7 days, which was too fast, even though I had only been on valium for one month total! You could cut by 1\10th or whatever.  Just bear in mind there are slight variations to the weight of the pills, some 2mg tablets weigh only 150mg and some weigh 165!  Also,  i love my nightly glass of wine, but do not drink at all while I am tapering and probably won't for a year after, it can really exacerbate wd side effects! 

[[ho...]]

Hi BB’s. I hope everyone had a nice Easter.  Just bumping us up on the boards too.

 

I made it to 1.55mg today.  That is another month down and over 8% this past month.  However this last stretch is so slow…LOL.  It is going to take a while to get down to 1mg and then from 1 to 0….   Yet it is exciting to finally be down to these numbers.  I can still remember back when I thought this was a lifetime away.  So hang in there if you are thinking the same way.  It is coming!!!!

 

Marie

[[Pa...]]

Wow! You must be so excited and relieved!  Congratulations!

[[sp...]]

Ok, so lets say i pick 120 days to come off of 5MG (4 months). By what i saw on a video, you would take 120 ML of water and dissolve a pill in it....take out 1ML of water then drink the rest.  Next day you take out 2ML of water with a syringe, then drink the rest.... you do that every day until your out.....

 

Doesn't this cause basically you being in withdrawals almost every day?

 

Anyways before that even occurs i need to put a stop to what happened after my last cut which is STOP DRINKING. I hadnt had a drop in weeks before this last cut, This last cut down to 5MG really threw me for a loop of anxiety, depression and for first time since i started tapering INSOMNIA.....ugh. god dammit!!! So i started drinking last thursday night so i could fall asleep, well that was a horrible idea here it is 5 days later and im on the wheel of doom i call it. Drinking all day just to stop the feelings your getting from drinking all day and trying to manage the symptoms that are being highly worsened by drinking. Ive never been an alcoholic before but this is turning me into one, and not the road i want to go down. So yeah going down 1MG at a time if symptoms are so bad im self medicating hello! is not working for me. Ive always been a hard head and think i can be superman and accomplish anything, its mind over matter!!! But at 54, its not panning out that way. Sigh. Lately people are suggesting i just check into a rehab center, that way i can get off the 5MG and get off the alcohol all at once, but i dont think they understand that getting off of 5MG of valium in a few weeks just "makes it go away" i have a feeling those places kick you out after 30 days and your left to suffer with trying to heal for a quick few week taper.

[[ho...]]

Wow! You must be so excited and relieved!  Congratulations!

 

Thank you so much.  It feels so amazing to be here.  Truly. I’m sure I could go back on this thread to two years ago and find a person who was thinking I would never be here… .  So there us hope 

 

Marie

[[ho...]]

Ok, so lets say i pick 120 days to come off of 5MG (4 months). By what i saw on a video, you would take 120 ML of water and dissolve a pill in it....take out 1ML of water then drink the rest.  Next day you take out 2ML of water with a syringe, then drink the rest.... you do that every day until your out.....

 

Doesn't this cause basically you being in withdrawals almost every day?

 

Anyways before that even occurs i need to put a stop to what happened after my last cut which is STOP DRINKING. I hadnt had a drop in weeks before this last cut, This last cut down to 5MG really threw me for a loop of anxiety, depression and for first time since i started tapering INSOMNIA.....ugh. god dammit!!! So i started drinking last thursday night so i could fall asleep, well that was a horrible idea here it is 5 days later and im on the wheel of doom i call it. Drinking all day just to stop the feelings your getting from drinking all day and trying to manage the symptoms that are being highly worsened by drinking. Ive never been an alcoholic before but this is turning me into one, and not the road i want to go down. So yeah going down 1MG at a time if symptoms are so bad im self medicating hello! is not working for me. Ive always been a hard head and think i can be superman and accomplish anything, its mind over matter!!! But at 54, its not panning out that way. Sigh. Lately people are suggesting i just check into a rehab center, that way i can get off the 5MG and get off the alcohol all at once, but i dont think they understand that getting off of 5MG of valium in a few weeks just "makes it go away" i have a feeling those places kick you out after 30 days and your left to suffer with trying to heal for a quick few week taper.

 

Hi.  I don’t know what video you watched, and how they do that ( I get my liquid made for me in a compound pharmacy) so I can’t really answer this very well, but I am going to try a little bit.  First, I know with my liquid, it is only stable for so long….so I don’t know how if you make it yourself it stays “stable” for 4 months like that.  If you are going down by 5mg in 4 months, YES most people would have pretty bad w/D’s sx everyday, because the amount would be so large and compounding daily. 

 

So there is a way to make your own liquid to do a daily micro taper and do it based on a comfortable %, so you aren’t having terrible w/d symptoms everyday.

 

I understand the alcohol is giving you really bad symptoms, but they also sound like benzo w/d side effects too.  If a person is going too fast the w/d sx can just become horrendous, and this is why the guidelines are strongly suggested at no more than 5-10% every 10/14 days and that is even too high for many.  There are a lot of people who can only reduce by about 5% per month.

 

Please don’t go to a rehab for the “benzo’s”, unless you have no other choice ( I don’t know all of your information) because they don’t do long term benzo cessation, it is quick and masked by other drug’s and then a person is left with acute w/d.  My doctor/psychiatrist does not believe in them at all for benzo’s. 

 

Maybe try holding where you are at and stabilizing so you feel better, give up the alcohol and get your feet under you and then start weaning again in about a month.  I am a strong believer in “holds” only because they have worked for me.  If you were to do this, you could look into possibly doing micro taper when you are feeling better, and not while you are at your wits end. 

 

I really hope you can start to feel better…..

 

Marie

[[Su...]]

Are there better ways to get off the last 4MG other than dry cutting? Ive heard of people mixing it in almond milk or water titration everyday.....is that better? I dont know anything other than cutting it with a pill cutter.

 

Hi…YES.  Slow down…LOL.  I know the wanting so bad to get off and just try and muscle through, only to have to “hold” and end up with debilitating sx.  The best way is the symptom based taper and the % based that works for each person.  As far as the method, cut and hold seems to be harder for most, not all.  I finally switched to a daily micro taper with liquid and pill’s, so a hybrid (it took me a while to figure this out).  I have my liquid done at a compound pharmacy and it is a tincture type (so held under the tongue, then swallowed) and it is pretty cheap.  Diazepam does come in a liquid form too.  I am at 1.57mg and when I get to 99ml (1mL =1mg in my solution) I will obviously be on all liquid at that point.  I found that the daily micro taper was much more gentle than the dry cut method for me, and I could manage my sx much better.  I still got into trouble going to fast many times ( I still do ) and would have to hold.  The lower in mg i got the %’s got much harder.  I also think I really taxed my CNS too much in the beginning sticking to the fast system of just trying to get off and I am still trying to recover from that, while also trying to reduce, recover and get off the final mg’s.  If that made sense. 

 

Obviously you can make your own liquid to do your titration if you wanted to try a DLMT as many do, and are very successful with this, as well as many do the scale method of weighing their doses and still cutting daily too.  It just depends on what you are most comfortable with.  When I was researching this, by reading those who had gone before me, it just seemed that those who had gone to a daily micro taper seemed to have less sx and more control over their taper over all.  Then they talked a lot about the “symptom based”, and that really spoke to me.

 

I would encourage you to break up with your calendar (focusing on the end date, counting the mg and weeks) and instead focus on healing while you gently walk off the benzo’s, so your CNS can heal during the process.  Turning to alcohol, which is a stimulant is counter productive and will only aggravate the process.  A quick fix with TERRIBLE SX.  I rarely drink anymore, I miss my wine but the stimulant isn’t worth it.  You mention having to work full time and also buying a house (thats huge) and remaining functional is the goal.  As you go lower, the % and cutting will just get more intense.  However, I have seen some people on here be able to handle it (just a few) and that is where “symptom based” comes in.  But you are already having to hold….so with that, you may want to figure out what % works best for you and your symptoms, and not focus on a # of mg’s.  Just a suggestion and something you will need to discuss with your doctor obviously.

 

Marie

 

Everything that Marie said I punctuate.

The calendar is not your friend right now and a sxs based taper can be one that is tolerable.

I make my own juice for a DLMT and can control things pretty well.  It's taken me a long time but I was/am VERY  kindled and went WAY TOO FAST in the beginning,.  really messed things up big time and had to hold for five months -- it worked however -- that hold.

 

% are important and can make or break a day -- as can alcohol unfortunately.

 

I need to work and have a life so the snail's pace has been OK, I'm more interested in living every day than getting off in a particular amount of time -- I can now cut 5% a month, but that's a vast improvement recently.

 

I've seen so many get off!  It can be done with patience and a decent pace.....

SS

[[ho...]]

Are there better ways to get off the last 4MG other than dry cutting? Ive heard of people mixing it in almond milk or water titration everyday.....is that better? I dont know anything other than cutting it with a pill cutter.

 

Hi…YES.  Slow down…LOL.  I know the wanting so bad to get off and just try and muscle through, only to have to “hold” and end up with debilitating sx.  The best way is the symptom based taper and the % based that works for each person.  As far as the method, cut and hold seems to be harder for most, not all.  I finally switched to a daily micro taper with liquid and pill’s, so a hybrid (it took me a while to figure this out).  I have my liquid done at a compound pharmacy and it is a tincture type (so held under the tongue, then swallowed) and it is pretty cheap.  Diazepam does come in a liquid form too.  I am at 1.57mg and when I get to 99ml (1mL =1mg in my solution) I will obviously be on all liquid at that point.  I found that the daily micro taper was much more gentle than the dry cut method for me, and I could manage my sx much better.  I still got into trouble going to fast many times ( I still do ) and would have to hold.  The lower in mg i got the %’s got much harder.  I also think I really taxed my CNS too much in the beginning sticking to the fast system of just trying to get off and I am still trying to recover from that, while also trying to reduce, recover and get off the final mg’s.  If that made sense. 

 

Obviously you can make your own liquid to do your titration if you wanted to try a DLMT as many do, and are very successful with this, as well as many do the scale method of weighing their doses and still cutting daily too.  It just depends on what you are most comfortable with.  When I was researching this, by reading those who had gone before me, it just seemed that those who had gone to a daily micro taper seemed to have less sx and more control over their taper over all.  Then they talked a lot about the “symptom based”, and that really spoke to me.

 

I would encourage you to break up with your calendar (focusing on the end date, counting the mg and weeks) and instead focus on healing while you gently walk off the benzo’s, so your CNS can heal during the process.  Turning to alcohol, which is a stimulant is counter productive and will only aggravate the process.  A quick fix with TERRIBLE SX.  I rarely drink anymore, I miss my wine but the stimulant isn’t worth it.  You mention having to work full time and also buying a house (thats huge) and remaining functional is the goal.  As you go lower, the % and cutting will just get more intense.  However, I have seen some people on here be able to handle it (just a few) and that is where “symptom based” comes in.  But you are already having to hold….so with that, you may want to figure out what % works best for you and your symptoms, and not focus on a # of mg’s.  Just a suggestion and something you will need to discuss with your doctor obviously.

 

Marie

 

Everything that Marie said I punctuate.

The calendar is not your friend right now and a sxs based taper can be one that is tolerable.

I make my own juice for a DLMT and can control things pretty well.  It's taken me a long time but I was/am VERY  kindled and went WAY TOO FAST in the beginning,.  really messed things up big time and had to hold for five months -- it worked however -- that hold.

 

% are important and can make or break a day -- as can alcohol unfortunately.

 

I need to work and have a life so the snail's pace has been OK, I'm more interested in living every day than getting off in a particular amount of time -- I can now cut 5% a month, but that's a vast improvement recently.

 

I've seen so many get off!  It can be done with patience and a decent pace.....

SS

 

SS- Yes…that fast pace in the beginning really messes things up.  If I only knew what I know now…oh to go back in time. 

 

It is a much longer process but to be functional is so much better and eventually we will get off.  I can’t believe I am down to 1.55 (well today I was supposed to drop to 1.54, but i am going to hold another day)….so just plugging along and then we eventually make slow and steady progress w/o the debilitating sx.

 

I did make the mistake of calculating (looking a head at the calendar  :tickedoff) out my drop down to 1mg, and I thought I would get there by July, but it turns out it will be more like October “and” that is presuming I don’t run into any problems and having to hold ……. So I am really looking at another year until I am off.  That will make this about a 4 year taper……I laugh because when I got really serious in about my taper, I thought it was going to be about 6 to 7 months, maybe 8 at the most.  LMBO….I was really really married to my calendar back then.  Breaking up was hard to do :laugh:

 

So for those who might be lurking….”slow n steady” is truly your best friend….It will save you from the dreaded sx, and “holds” that just end up putting you further behind anyway, plus it really taxes your CNS….climbing out of a fried CNS is brutal. 

 

*side not…I was skimming the boards and reading somewhere, and someone was sharing about how they went very slow n steady, and it was a long taper too, but they gently walked off and at 2months off, they felt GREAT!  That gave me so much hope last night.

 

Hope everyone is doing well….it is quiet on this thread. 

 

Marie

[[sp...]]

Yes i had a meeting with my Dr. in person yesterday....told her im holding at 5MG....could be a few months i told her....im the middle of buying a house, working full time and have a kid and i cant afford to do what i just did which is completely fall apart, had insomnia for 6 days straight where i think i got a total of like 10 hours in 6 days, started to hallucinate and loose it and became basically an alcoholic all with the last cut. Wow. it kicked my butt hard. Im on day 10 of the cut so i think i made it, i quit drinking last night and finally slept for 7 hours in a row uninterrupted. Some day when i do decide to finish tapering i will prob try 4.5 and see. I cant even think of cutting anymore right now it was too bad 

[[ho...]]

Yes i had a meeting with my Dr. in person yesterday....told her im holding at 5MG....could be a few months i told her....im the middle of buying a house, working full time and have a kid and i cant afford to do what i just did which is completely fall apart, had insomnia for 6 days straight where i think i got a total of like 10 hours in 6 days, started to hallucinate and loose it and became basically an alcoholic all with the last cut. Wow. it kicked my butt hard. Im on day 10 of the cut so i think i made it, i quit drinking last night and finally slept for 7 hours in a row uninterrupted. Some day when i do decide to finish tapering i will prob try 4.5 and see. I cant even think of cutting anymore right now it was too bad

 

I am glad you met with your doctor and you are going to hold for a while.  Great news on the alcohol too, good for you.

 

When you do decide to begin your taper again, just remember the % based taper, and try to go slow.  Being successful at the taper and getting off is the goal while remaining functional.  This is very doable, even if it takes a long time.  It is better to move slowly and towards the goal of getting off than to remain on the benzo’s.

 

Take care and we will be here when you are ready to resume to cheer you on. 

 

Marie

[[Su...]]

Yes i had a meeting with my Dr. in person yesterday....told her im holding at 5MG....could be a few months i told her....im the middle of buying a house, working full time and have a kid and i cant afford to do what i just did which is completely fall apart, had insomnia for 6 days straight where i think i got a total of like 10 hours in 6 days, started to hallucinate and loose it and became basically an alcoholic all with the last cut. Wow. it kicked my butt hard. Im on day 10 of the cut so i think i made it, i quit drinking last night and finally slept for 7 hours in a row uninterrupted. Some day when i do decide to finish tapering i will prob try 4.5 and see. I cant even think of cutting anymore right now it was too bad

 

This sounds like a very sound plan!  Life goes on and it's important not to miss too much of it I figure.

You may want to look at DLMT when you decide to taper again.  I find it to be much easier than cut and hold-- MUCH easier.  The thought of cutting 5% and riding it out gives me the shivers.....  DLMT allows me to plan when I will feel "not so good" and mostly I feel "OK"  I can even hold for a few days if I've got events when i want to feel well enough to attend.

SS

 

Remember that alcohol really can interfere with the whole process as well.  I do have a glass of wine now and then but that's it.

 

[[Pa...]]

This has been my mistake.  I was only on valium one month, so decided to rush the taper so soon after my son's death.  Became completely nonfunctional, couchbound.  Then the dr prescribed me gabapentin to help, which worked really well at first and allowed me to keep racing along and be more functional, until just this week.  Now i am having waves of anxiety insomnia and depression, and now am addicted to a second drug that I will have to face a taper later.  Arghhhh

[[ho...]]

Paula - Sorry you are suffering so much.  It is hard when other drugs are introduced and then the daunting task of yet another wean. 

 

Hang in there….we are here to support you 

 

Marie

[[sp...]]

Yes i had a meeting with my Dr. in person yesterday....told her im holding at 5MG....could be a few months i told her....im the middle of buying a house, working full time and have a kid and i cant afford to do what i just did which is completely fall apart, had insomnia for 6 days straight where i think i got a total of like 10 hours in 6 days, started to hallucinate and loose it and became basically an alcoholic all with the last cut. Wow. it kicked my butt hard. Im on day 10 of the cut so i think i made it, i quit drinking last night and finally slept for 7 hours in a row uninterrupted. Some day when i do decide to finish tapering i will prob try 4.5 and see. I cant even think of cutting anymore right now it was too bad

 

This sounds like a very sound plan!  Life goes on and it's important not to miss too much of it I figure.

You may want to look at DLMT when you decide to taper again.  I find it to be much easier than cut and hold-- MUCH easier.  The thought of cutting 5% and riding it out gives me the shivers.....  DLMT allows me to plan when I will feel "not so good" and mostly I feel "OK"  I can even hold for a few days if I've got events when i want to feel well enough to attend.

SS

 

Remember that alcohol really can interfere with the whole process as well.  I do have a glass of wine now and then but that's it.

 

What is DLMT?

[[Su...]]

Yes i had a meeting with my Dr. in person yesterday....told her im holding at 5MG....could be a few months i told her....im the middle of buying a house, working full time and have a kid and i cant afford to do what i just did which is completely fall apart, had insomnia for 6 days straight where i think i got a total of like 10 hours in 6 days, started to hallucinate and loose it and became basically an alcoholic all with the last cut. Wow. it kicked my butt hard. Im on day 10 of the cut so i think i made it, i quit drinking last night and finally slept for 7 hours in a row uninterrupted. Some day when i do decide to finish tapering i will prob try 4.5 and see. I cant even think of cutting anymore right now it was too bad

 

This sounds like a very sound plan!  Life goes on and it's important not to miss too much of it I figure.

You may want to look at DLMT when you decide to taper again.  I find it to be much easier than cut and hold-- MUCH easier.  The thought of cutting 5% and riding it out gives me the shivers.....  DLMT allows me to plan when I will feel "not so good" and mostly I feel "OK"  I can even hold for a few days if I've got events when i want to feel well enough to attend.

SS

 

Remember that alcohol really can interfere with the whole process as well.  I do have a glass of wine now and then but that's it.

 

What is DLMT?

 

Daily Liquid Micro Taper -- sorry about the acronym.

[[sp...]]

yes once again i gave up alcohol about 7 days ago now, of course i feel a hundred times better and am back to sleeping and feel normal again. The only good thing about dry cutting is at least i always stabilize fairly quickly (if not drinking) takes about 2-3 days max then im back to normal. Then i feel great until the next cut. I then think i can handle the 1MG cuts again....then regret it once i do it lol. So im going to just stay here at 5MG for about 6 weeks then start cutting by .5.....if i hit a wall again at some point then yeah my next plan is to start a liquid daily tapering method. Ive watched enough videos to understand how it works. I think if i was feeling bad inbetween the dry cuts i would start it now but still want to see how i fare with NOT drinking alcohol...and going to just .5 cuts first.

[[Pa...]]

Sounds like a good plan!  Alcohol affects the same receptors as valium, and causes your brain to be "confused" and exacerbates wd side effects.

[[sp...]]

Sounds like a good plan!  Alcohol affects the same receptors as valium, and causes your brain to be "confused" and exacerbates wd side effects.

 

Its strange, ive never had a problem with alcohol in my life until now. Its like the alcohol and Benzos create some sort of terrible affect on me where i get a nasty hangover the next morning for just say drinking one or two beers the night before. Like im talking so bad that i wake up at 3am in a pool of sweat and anxiety that is through the roof.....so by 6am i literally cant stand another minute and start drinking again just to stop the horrible feelings, then it turns into a terrible cycle of drinking every 2-3 hours just to stop the horrible anxiety and hangover feeling...well then that stretches on and on for like 7 days until i finally say enough! and just suffer through about 2-3 days with no alcohol and swear on my life ill never have another drink again. This use to NEVER happen before 8 months ago when i got hooked on these things. I could have 2-3 beers night before and wake up feeling great. Alcohol and Benzos at least for me are a horrible, poison mixture i cant even have one beer....not even one!!

[[Pa...]]

It took me about a year after my first valium taper in 2006, to be able to have one small glass of wine, with no return of s\x.  But then I was fine for 16 years until my son died and  I foolishly took valium for 4 weeks, and now am tapering again!  Down to 3.4 mgs as of tonight though!  And probably at least another year of no wine, after this taper as well.

[[ho...]]

Spitefire- I am so glad that you have a “plan”.  That is the best way to move forward.    Just remember, that even if you stick with .5 cut and hold method, at some point, you may need to adjust the .5 because the % is will become too high again and you could get into trouble.

 

This is where the Micro tapers are more beneficial; either dry or liquid or liquid/pills, because we can control the % so much easier.  If you do stick with a dry cut and hold taper, you still may want to invest in a scale so you can weigh your pill’s to make your cut’s easier 

 

 

Hi everyone else, I hope all is going well….

 

Marie

[[Al...]]

Howmany,

 

Have you jumped?

[[ho...]]

Howmany,

 

Have you jumped?

 

Alycat….oh no….I am at 1.52mg and no way would I jump.  I struggle going down now.  I am afraid to jump at even .50 or .25.  I’m sure I will gently walk off, unless I can do the NAD+ and jump.  I am looking into this.  I am following BenzoLottie and her journey right now with the patches of NAD+.  I am also doing more research.  Today I am ordering the nose spray of NAD+ and will see how I do with that first.  Also i have to look more into if I am a candidate or not because of not having a gallbladder???

 

Marie

[[Be...]]

Howmany,

 

Have you jumped?

 

Alycat….oh no….I am at 1.52mg and no way would I jump.  I struggle going down now.  I am afraid to jump at even .50 or .25.  I’m sure I will gently walk off, unless I can do the NAD+ and jump.  I am looking into this.  I am following BenzoLottie and her journey right now with the patches of NAD+.  I am also doing more research.  Today I am ordering the nose spray of NAD+ and will see how I do with that first.  Also i have to look more into if I am a candidate or not because of not having a gallbladder???

 

Marie

 

I notice more people are reading that thread. I can't blame curious (and desperate) BB's following and seeing how things go with me. I felt that way about the ones who did the IV drips. Like Strong, it was tempting to just put myself in debt and get infusions. I answered there your concern about having no gallbladder, as I don't have one either.

[[Al...]]

Howmany,

 

Have you jumped?

 

Alycat….oh no….I am at 1.52mg and no way would I jump.  I struggle going down now.  I am afraid to jump at even .50 or .25.  I’m sure I will gently walk off, unless I can do the NAD+ and jump.  I am looking into this.  I am following BenzoLottie and her journey right now with the patches of NAD+.  I am also doing more research.  Today I am ordering the nose spray of NAD+ and will see how I do with that first.  Also i have to look more into if I am a candidate or not because of not having a gallbladder???

 

Marie

 

I notice more people are reading that thread. I can't blame curious (and desperate) BB's following and seeing how things go with me. I felt that way about the ones who did the IV drips. Like Strong, it was tempting to just put myself in debt and get infusions. I answered there your concern about having no gallbladder, as I don't have one either.

 

 

Thanks for responding.  I assume a prescription for NAD is required? 

[[Su...]]

Howmany,

 

Have you jumped?

 

Alycat….oh no….I am at 1.52mg and no way would I jump.  I struggle going down now.  I am afraid to jump at even .50 or .25.  I’m sure I will gently walk off, unless I can do the NAD+ and jump.  I am looking into this.  I am following BenzoLottie and her journey right now with the patches of NAD+.  I am also doing more research.  Today I am ordering the nose spray of NAD+ and will see how I do with that first.  Also i have to look more into if I am a candidate or not because of not having a gallbladder???

 

Marie

 

I notice more people are reading that thread. I can't blame curious (and desperate) BB's following and seeing how things go with me. I felt that way about the ones who did the IV drips. Like Strong, it was tempting to just put myself in debt and get infusions. I answered there your concern about having no gallbladder, as I don't have one either.

 

 

Thanks for responding.  I assume a prescription for NAD is required?

 

I just called Ken Starr's clinic and they are sending me the spray. I had spoken to them a few years ago but it was all pretty simple