Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[Th...]]

I have been on Valium for 15 years. I started a Valium taper from 17.5 mg on Oct 31. I have only 5mg tabs so I cut each tab in half, 2.5 mgs. I went down to 12.5 mg on Dec 9 and got really sick on Dec 14. (about 1.3 months) I went to an addiction med. specialist and she told me that I should have only tapered by .5mg per month, she recommended that I go back up to 15mg. I did that 2 days ago and am still not functional. I am reluctant to go back to 17.5mg yet I need to be functional.  I would like to stabilize and then try a very slow taper at .5mg like recommended.  Does anyone have experience with this type of going back to original dosage and then tapering much slower?

 

Hi Agape1,

 

I'm currently helping my wife off Valium. You can see from the signature her progress. We had many false starts at tapering, but sooner or later you finally get better at it, you gain experience and that's when things start heading in the right direction. Don't worry about going back to the start. It is all trial & error until you find that right amount to cut in the right amount of time. Geez, even then you get plenty of surprises along the way.

 

If you can get a hold of 2mg tablets it will help you mix & match with the 5mg tablets to achieve the 0.5mg drops you want. For example, if you are on 15mg split in two equal doses daily, you take 7.5mg in the morning and 7.5mg at night. You get 7.5mg using a full 5mg tablet and half another 5mg tablet.

 

When you want to drop down to 14.5mg, you pick which dose you want to drop. Say you pick the morning dose, you now take 7mg in the morning using a full 5mg tablet and a full 2mg tablet, and 7.5mg at night using a Full 5mg tablet and half another 5mg tablet.

 

Once you get to the lower doses like 4-5mg you might consider another method like daily micro tapering using liquid Diazepam or following a titration method used by many on this thread. I'm sure one of them will be more than happy to guide you with that.

 

I wish you all the best. Take your time and be patient. It is really hard to be patient when all you want is to be free from these pill, but remember that you will get better with time.!

 

The Rock.

[[Di...]]

Hi Agape1

 

I agree with everything the others have said. I also particularly agree with Rock in saying that you should try to get a hold of 2mg tablets. You will find tapering much easier with the 2mg tablets. Also, if at some point you decided to switch to a daily taper, the 2mg tablets will make that easier too.

[[jj...]]

Can ora-plus be used alone? After looking into the options, using the ora-plus method seems like it might work the best for me, but I'm diabetic as well... so ora-sweet syrup is probably not going to be the best if it must be used.

[[Do...]]

I have been doing cut and hold and have been stuck on 3mg for the past 2 months.  Have had a lot of stress which is why  I haven't cut before and now with Christmas so near have been afraid to make another cut in case I make my wds worse.  However, over the past 2 weeks my wds have been getting much worse anyway, not helped by a really bad cold.  My physical wd symptoms have returned with a vengeance, severe joint pain, mouth ulcers, sore  eyes, stomach probs. insomnia.  Last time I experienced a relatively reasonable day was 2 weeks ago.  I am wondering if this could be due to the lower dosage or is it possible that I have held for too long and am now in tolerance to the 3mg dose.  Feel pretty rough and need to do something but am in a quandary.  Have a lot of pressure from well meaning friends, who, because I look relatively OK and try to act 'as if', give me added pressure. Don't know which way to go - my instinct is to do another cut, say 1/8th of a 2mg tab. but really would appreciate any advice offered on this one. Can't take this much longer.  Thanks in advance [hopefully].

[[...]]

Can ora-plus be used alone? After looking into the options, using the ora-plus method seems like it might work the best for me, but I'm diabetic as well... so ora-sweet syrup is probably not going to be the best if it must be used.

 

I used Ora-Plus and Ora-Sweet alone for my entire taper. You don't need the Ora-Sweet. Ora-Plus doesn't taste particularly good but is certainly doable. If you like, you add a little artificial sweetener.

 

Bart

[[or...]]

Dorothy, if your w/d are bad, I wouldn't cut. You will just make matters worse IMO. I think that is the conventional wisdom here. And no, you are not in tolerance w/d.

 

I would spend the rest of the holidays at 3 mg and try not to stress.

 

You might plan, for the future, to look into microtapering and daily reductions. So much better than cut and hold (aka cut and suffer). I cut and held all the way down to 2 mg, suffered a lot, never stabilized, and ended up in a mess. That's why I am holding at 2.5 mg. I realized way too late that I needed to split my dose to 2x a day and when I did this, things evened out. How many times a day do you dose? I am holding here until the New Year. Things are getting better but I have strep throat and feel unwell so I am waiting to feel physically better until I start microtapering again. (I started microtapering at 2 mg.,  went too fast, had to stop and updose to 2.5 mg. where I am now)

 

I use Diaz Pam's liquid titration and daily reduction method but there are several methods you could use. Just look on the Tapering board for info or bring up one of etown or eliz's posts as well as Diaz Pam. Then you can see several methods.

 

So, no, if it were me, I would stay right where you are. Then I would start in again reducing, but not with cut and suffer. Microtapering is so much easier on your body and brain. Perhaps plan on making .01 mg cuts to start. Go slow.

 

Others may disagree. Just my thoughts, based on my experiences with this evil drug.

 

Okatz

[[bu...]]

I have been on Valium for 15 years. I started a Valium taper from 17.5 mg on Oct 31. I have only 5mg tabs so I cut each tab in half, 2.5 mgs. I went down to 12.5 mg on Dec 9 and got really sick on Dec 14. (about 1.3 months) I went to an addiction med. specialist and she told me that I should have only tapered by .5mg per month, she recommended that I go back up to 15mg. I did that 2 days ago and am still not functional. I am reluctant to go back to 17.5mg yet I need to be functional.  I would like to stabilize and then try a very slow taper at .5mg like recommended.  Does anyone have experience with this type of going back to original dosage and then tapering much slower?

 

Anytime I have updosed, it took 7-10 days for the new dose to become effective.

[[Sn...]]

Hi Oregonkatz,

 

I dose once daily at 11.00pm.  I did dose twice daily.  When I was on 5mg I dosed twice daily,.5mg am and 4.5mg 11.pm then when I reduced to 4.5mg I took the whole dose at night. I read in Prof Ashton's book that it is often better to reduce to once daily as you come down so that you are not thinking of dosage all the time [or words to that effect].  I did think it might help with sleep - alas not so. I just feel I am getting worse on this dosage, I was feeling much better until  I came past 3.5mg.  I have given thought to the daily liquid using tablets tapering, but am useless with figures and my mind just boggles.  Why do you say I am not tolerant? I thought you could become tolerant to a dose if you stayed on for too long, or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Your advice is appreciated, thank you.

 

[[or...]]

I think tolerance withdrawal goes the other way. Say you are not tapering and are on 10 mg of valium. Eventually that does not work because you have been on it for so long (years maybe) that your body needs more and you get s/x. You are then in tolerance w/d. So you have to go up to 12, say, or more. I do not think that those of us who are tapering can experience tolerance w/d. I think we are experiencing plain old w/d because we are reducing and our brains are having a hard time with the reductions. It is possible to get "stuck" on a given dosage, and then that's when problems arise and we have to figure out why those problems are arising. I don't think any of the buddies would advise just going ahead and reducing if your w/d f/x are awful. Some w/ds are to be expected, and if they are tolerable, then if it were me I would go ahead. (Some of the bb have held at a certain dose for months longer than you have to even things out. Personally, holding never worked for me).

 

More of the conventional wisdom on these BB is that when holding does not work, an updose to the place where you last felt well, and a hold there, might straighten things out. So that's something to think about, too.

 

When I got stuck at 2 mg I had to figure out that I was having interdose w/d -- I took careful note of the time of day when I got sick and figured out that my once daily dose of valium did not cover the whole 24 hours. So now I dose at 11 and 4 and that seems to have solved the nausea and the cog fog. I will stay here until the New Year and then resume microtapering.

 

I listened to my pdoc who advised me at 4 mg, when I was dosing twice a day (and things were going fine), to go to once a day because it would help me with sleep, just like you. It didn't. I wish I had never listened to her. My trouble started then. But both she and Ashton advised the same thing. Well, they were both wrong. I think we instinctively know what's right for us. When something feels wrong, we have to change it up. It took me 6 months to "wake up" and figure things out.

 

OK, let's think about your situation. Did your trouble start when you went from dosing twice to dosing once a day? They might have. What are your w/d f/x and when  do they happen?

 

You have a couple of choices -- and remember, these are just suggestions based on my experience. I cannot decide what's best for you. One, stay at your current dose and continue dosing once a day and see if things straighten out. Two, stay at your current dose and try splitting your dose. Three, try a small updose and take it once a day. Four, try a small updose and split your dose.

 

Whatever you decide, if it were me, I would definitely start to think about microtapering using liquids once you have solved your problem. Cut and hold was awful for me. With c & h your brain gets an awful shock once every 2 weeks or so, and then has to sort things out. With daily reductions, you are able to "sneak" your dose down so that hopefully your brain doesn't rebel and your healing rate stays ahead of your cutting rate. With c & h you are always playing catch-up. At least I was.

 

There are other methods, but I looked at them and found Diaz Pam's method suited me best. I am a mathematical idiot and her method does not involve you doing any math at all. But you ought to look at etown and eliz's methods (both their methods are accessible via links in their signatures) as they are dry cutting using Gemini scales to weigh their tablets and calculate the necessary reductions. I don't mean to dismiss their methods, just telling you what worked best for me.

 

I know this is a lot to digest.

 

So why don't you think about your w/d f/x and try to take not of when they happen. Maybe splitting your dose will fix things. Maybe a small updose and splitting your dose will help.

 

Feel free to get back to me.

 

I am not going anywhere over Xmas as I am sick with strep throat so I will be on the BB.

 

I am by no means an expert (etown, I hope will chime in here as he's very experienced and helped me solve my problem. eliz is knowledgeable, too) but I think I have overcome my problem and am ready to resume microtapering Jan 1.

 

Like I said, get back to me with questions. But DO look at Diaz Pam's instructions on how to do daily reductions using liquids. That's the solution that I could most easily understand and utilize.

 

And don't get panicked.

 

There are lots of people here to help you out. And if one thing doesn't work, we'll help you try something else.

 

Okatz

[[jj...]]

Okat, spitting up the dose into AM and PM sounds like that might be good advice that I"m going to try out. I've been on .5 mg of k and I think that there is a good possibility that I'm getting interdose w/d.

 

I am wondering though, when I start my taper should I go back and forth between the AM dose and PM dose tapering? Or should I try to taper both at the same time? I'm going to c/o the PM to dose to diazepam next MD visit and thought that I would start working on whittling down the PM dose first after holding for a couple of weeks to allow the .25 dose of k to work out of my system. Some of the worst w/d symptoms I'm having, like derealization, I'm betting is a direct result of klonopin.

[[or...]]

Snow White:

 

Just to clarify . . . my long reply above was meant for you. Sorry. I should have said that. Sorry jjrosk if you thought it was meant for you. I'm a little dingy today -- groggy and on antibiotics.

 

Okatz

 

 

[[jj...]]

Sorry, I know you were addressing Snow White but you brought up some good info in your response to her that I hadn't considered. I'm learning more about benzos and benzo w/d in the last three days on this site then I got in grad school and five years experience as a clinical social worker.

 

Admittedly I'm very new to these kinds of forums. Is it considered rude to directly comment on a comment meant for someone else?

[[or...]]

jjrosk:

 

No it isn't rude at all. And here is the post I had just typed for you when you were posting for me. If may have info in it that you can use.

 

If you are thinking of splitting up your dose and moving to valium, if it were me I would hold for awhile to let your system get accustomed to the new drug. I can't speak to K as I have had no experience with it. It seems reasonable to wait to taper until you are on only one drug . . . and definitely wait for a week or two on the new drug (valium) to let it start building up in your body. That's what I would do. When I crossed from Ativan to valium, that's what I did. Then I started tapering the valium.

 

I wouldn't want to see you get "in the weeds" doing cut and hold (cut and suffer). I think .5 mg of K = 10 mg of valium. However, when I was on 10 mg of valium, I had no problem using all tablets. I dropped 10% every two weeks until I got to 5 mg. I dosed twice a day. I do notice that some of the BB are microtapering using liquid and tablets, or using scales to reduce tablet size, when they are near the dose you will be on. I would ask etown for his recommendation about microtapering starting at 10 mg. I wouldn't want to give you bad advice. 

 

Where I got in trouble was below 5 mg was when I listened to bad advice and went to dosing once a day. I was definitely having interdose w/d. Sounds like you may be, too.

 

Hope this has helped.

 

Okatz

[[et...]]

Snow Okatz is right...we have  no power so I'm on my phone. I have a few ideas and when I get my power back I will get in on the conversation

Etown

[[dr...]]

Snow White-I was down to once a day dosing and once I got down to around 5mg I went to two doses. I am now under 3mg and went to three doses. It has been a huge help. I followed what Ashton said too, but I was feeling worse so I knew something was wrong. The half life of a drug is different than the immediate effect of ingesting it.  It is a pain to take it three times but it's a small price to pay for felling better.  I take my doses when I wake up, around 5-6 hours later, and around 7-8 pm. My symptoms were the worst during late afternoon.  Now they are all okay at this point.

I also have gone from the cut hold over to the daily taper once I hit 4.5mg. I feel sooo much better. Again, I have withdrawals and bad days but I am functional most of the time. Read my signature for details.

 

Jjrosk-I was on klonopin for a long time. I would definitely recommend dosing at least 3x per day. Did you ever consider crossing over to Valium?  Not sure if I missed that in your posts. I got stuck on K at .75 and wish I swapped to V way earlier.

 

Drew

[[...]]

Hi Everyone!

 

I have been out of town the last few days and since I am just horrible at trying to use my phone to type, have been MIA on the site.

 

I have slowed my taper rate since last week to .007mg daily.  .009 was my previous rate but my sleep was starting to decay and the wide awake feeling in the evening was becoming more prevalent.  Even though I was loathe to slow down yet again, I plugged the new rate into my spreadsheet and discovered that .007 would get me to my next milestone dose of .59mg only 5 days later than .009. 

 

I need to stop being so stubborn.  Since I slowed my rate down I am sleeping 2 - 3 more hours a night and this is very exciting for me since I have not averaged more than 4 hours a night since I started this taper on July 1st.  Almost six months.  I am still waking up early but now for the first time ever am able to go to France (oui, oui  ) and then fall back to sleep.  Just this development alone would be enough to make me feel very good about my taper at this point, but there is another positive development as well.  My afternoon symptoms no longer seem to be as noticeable.  I am starting to think that what Diaz-Pam has said about things taking a turn for the better at around .7mg may be true.  It is subtle, but very noticeable how much better over all I am feeling.

 

If I can keep feeling this much better and almost 95% symptom free, then I don't think it will matter to me how much longer this taper might take.  There is no substitute for feeling good, I think.

 

For those still on doses above 5mg, hang in there.  It does get better and you do start feeling the healing the lower you go.   

[[...]]

Can ora-plus be used alone? After looking into the options, using the ora-plus method seems like it might work the best for me, but I'm diabetic as well... so ora-sweet syrup is probably not going to be the best if it must be used.

 

Hi JJ

Orasweet is sugar free and approved for diabetics.  There is nothing wrong with using just Ora-plus as Bart stated, it just makes the dose more palatable.  You could add stevia or just hold your nose 

[[Sm...]]

I'm also a fan of multiple doses per day. I like the 3 a day - super smooth.

 

Ashton says once but Ashton just doesn't get everything right. Living this you learn a lot more then someone ever could looking in.

 

I've actually been able to increase my cut rate lately. Quite odd. The two things that have changed: taking bioperine/piperine (the pepper extract) 5mg and Half a tablet of a Cal/Mag/C/B vitamins with my 2 day doses (I always took 1 curcumin and 1 fish oil with those doses).

B vitamins have definitely helped with some of my hormonal stuff - they help estrogen production - so I'm now off estrogen patches altogether.. But I think The bioperine/piperine is doing the added absorbtion/boosting of the Valium. It isn't necessarily a good thing because it means a bigger hit of something I'm trying to get off. But hey.. I may be able to get off it faster with a higher cut rate because of the increased absorbtion so I can live with that. It does help with longevity of the drug too I'm sure. I took it to help with the curcumin absorbtion and it has helped with that too.

[[...]]

To add to the discussion on daily dosing,

I am dosing just once per day to cover my afternoon symptoms since they, if left uncovered, can be quite unpleasant (although, per my earlier post - they now seem to be releasing their death grip on me). 

 

Technically though, I am taking two afternoon doses - half my daily dose at 11:30am and the other half at 1:30pm to be sure I cover the entire afternoon and evening.  This "dose loading" method ensures I have the entire duration of effect of the Valium covering the noon - 8pm time period.

 

A month or so ago, I tried to split my dose to every twelve hours thinking it might help my sleep issues, but it was a disaster.  It did not improve my sleep and left me too vulnerable in the afternoon.

 

The point is, this is an individual process.  What works for one will not necessarily work for all.  The best advice I can give to anyone who is trying to determine how often and at what time to dose is to keep a daily log of symptoms and when they occur.  If you have only one period during the day when you feel bad, maybe dosing once per day is for you.  If you have several times per day when symptoms flare up, you may be experiencing inter-dose withdrawal and dosing just prior to each of these times may be the way you need to go.

 

Don't be afraid to try new times and dosing schedules.  The good thing about Valium is that the half life is so long, that these types of experiments are possible.

 

CC and Okatz - sounds like you two ladies are feeling much better than last week.  Good to read this and I hope that things keep improving for you both now that you have the ability to slow down and taper more slowly with daily cuts.

[[...]]

Smiff

I am still intrigued by your success with the Bioperine.  I may try it yet!

[[Te...]]

Hi BB,

I have been reading all your posts and I am learning more as this forum continues.

I am still holding at 4.5mg V since Nov 12th and still have anxiety and dp, heart palps, out of breathe but sleeping is not too bad (I probably should not say that...I might jinx myself).

 

I am now wondering if I am having interdose sx since the morning and days have been the problem now. Everyone has been talking about divided doses. What are your thoughts on dividing my dose to 2mg in the morning and 2.5mg at night? I have been having a hard time during the day now that I am at 4.5mgs. I know I have to start a daily taper either liquid or dry. When I first started my taper I was on 2 doses but changed to one as you see in my signature because I so tired during the day, but I know that wouldn't be the case at this low dose.

 

Please help me figure this out.

 

Tess

 

 

[[bu...]]

I think tolerance withdrawal goes the other way. Say you are not tapering and are on 10 mg of valium. Eventually that does not work because you have been on it for so long (years maybe) that your body needs more and you get s/x. You are then in tolerance w/d. So you have to go up to 12, say, or more. 

 

Okatz

 

Just FYI, tolerance and tolerance withdrawal are NOT the same thing.

 

Tolerance means your med no longer has therapeutic effect.  It no longer resolves the symptom/condition it was prescribed for.  Because of the nature of benzos, virtually all users will eventually develop tolerance.

Tolerance withdrawal occurs when you begin to experience WD sxs, although you have not reduced your dosage.  Tolerance withdrawal occurs much less frequently.

 

Colin has a more detailed explanation.  He prefers the term "relative withdrawal" to "tolerance withdrawal".

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-information/tolerance-and-dependency/

 

 

.

[[...]]

Tess,

The only way you will know if moving your doses will help you is if you try it.  Based on my own experience when I tried to split mine to 12 hours apart, if it does not work for you and makes things worse, just move them back.  That is what I did.

 

Keep us posted

[[Sm...]]

Tess I agree with Eliz

 

You can try to see if moving the doses helps. And that is the only way you'll know if it helps. However from the sounds of it you probably you are in out and out withdrawal not interdose withdrawal. Moving doses will only help if there is an interdose withdrawal problem.

 

You can either: sit it out or slowly updose till you feel better.

 

The end result is the same

[[Te...]]

Smiff & Eliz,

Do you both dose twice a day? I just don't want to make things worse. IYO would a change back and fourth make the taper harder? I surely don't want to make sleep to suffer. Sorry, I am starting to really over think everything. Should the anxiety be gone to be labeled "stable"?

 

Also, has anyone taken Buspar/Buspirone? My doctor suggested it for my anxiety but I am really hesitant about taking even more drugs. Does anyone have any suggestions for my anxiety?

 

I think your term "cut & suffer" is accurate in my case.

 

Tess