Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[wi...]]

::::This is a little left field but Estrogen is a pretty amazing sleep aid. It also really helps with benzo w/d.

 

I'm post menopause.    Would phytoestrogens be any good?  I could eat slabs of bean curd if it would help?   

 

 

[[pi...]]

I'll be interested in seeing how you do, drew. I know what you mean. Cut and hold was awful for me . . . but at least it was predictable. Daily reductions seem so iffy. You just wait . . . and then an 18 wheeler hits you. Or not. But what everyone says is that IT DOES!!!!

 

I have been wondering if now that I split up my dose and things got gradually better if doing a much less ambitious cut and hold (say .01 mg valium every couple of days instead of every day) than I did in the past might not be better for me.

 

I so hate the idea of that 18 wheeler coming for me. I don't know. And if I start daily reductions and get in the weeds again I am going to be so discouraged that jumping in the ocean may seem like a viable alternative. I am really on the fence about this.

 

It took me a long time to feel better -- almost a month now -- and I sure don't want to wreck the 90% of feeling like a human being I am experiencing now.

 

I am a wimp. I went through 6 months of hell with my Ashton taper (aka cut and suffer) trying to reduce 2 mg of freakin' valium. I don't want any more suffering.

 

Does anyone else have thoughts about this?

 

On the fence,

 

Okatz

 

Hello Okatz,

 

I believe, as most do here, that everyone must find their own path to benzo freedom.  Recently, because of something similar to your statement, I posted on the Ashton Cut and Hold support thread that we should respect everyone for whatever method they decide to take.  I will do the same here.  The Cut and Hold method, while perhaps did not work for you, has worked for many people.  Let's not debase this method by describing it in unsavory terms.

 

pianogirl

[[co...]]

wisernow,

I thought I read somewhere in an earlier post that you were on 15mg of Lexapro and not 10 to begin with, however I could be mistaken and you have always been on 10mg.

 

I believe the 10mg of Lexapro would be equal to 20mg of prozac however you can do your own research on equivalency doses and speak with your doctor who should know that. Lexapro is much more potent. If you were originally on 15mg then that would be the dose to return to on lexapro and taper from there that is if you wanted to try Lexapro again and if it was 10 then that is where you go to. Prozac would be i think 20mg as an equivalent to 10mg, however I am not sure so please check that out.

 

It does take the body awhile to get used to any new drug whether it would be to return to lexapro or try prozac. MY Gi tract also had an adjustment for 4-6 weeks or when I first started taking lexapro and then it stopped. I have never taken prozac however it is known to be easier to taper from then lexapro is and is the most compatible to lexapro. Initially all antidepressants can cause increased anxiety during the adjustment period. Eventually those symptoms stabilize and go away. So whichever drug you try or resume you need to start slowly, build up to full dose and then stay on it for awhile until you feel well on it. Only then, would you begin a very slow taper down.

 

Each drug affects each person differently. It took me a long time to adjust to lexapro. I started with 5mg and then moved on to 10mg and eventually felt better except for sleep and at the time I was prescribed Trazadone for that. I was on it for a year. When I decided to taper I had capsules compounded with no lactose or starches and I made 5% reductions every 14 days. Initially,  I may have made 10% reductions however I quickly moved to reduce at 5% every 2 weeks and that worked very well. I had no major problems and was able to come off of it without many withdrawal symptoms or mild ones. Other people I know switched to Prozac or introduced prozac together with Lexapro temporarily and then moved to only prozac. This is for discussion with your doctor.

 

I can't say how Prozac will affect you however it is worth discussing with your doctor so you can go back on something, feel better and stay on it for awhile before your taper off of anything further. That is what I would do. Otherwise you are being prescribed benzo's to help you with withdrawal from lexapro and you develop a tolerance to them as well. They would not counteract the rapid withdrawal from lexapro syndrome however they may help some symptoms which have come up from doing that. Best of Luck, Concerned

[[or...]]

You're right about cut and suffer pianogirl. While we may privately hold derogatory  thoughts, we don't need to air them on the forum. Sorry.

 

Okatz

[[hu...]]

human11 you c/d off lexapro?  How long was the bad w/d?

 

Hi wiser,

 

Lexapro w/d was horrible. I made a terrible decision to c/t. I don't think I was thinking clearly because I was essentially forced to c/t off Vyvanse (amphetamine) just two months earlier and that had crushed me. Vyvanse had been the wonder drug that changed my life, until it slowly lost its efficacy (as I believe all these drugs eventually do).

 

Lexapro w/d was a totally different kind of hell than benzo w/d for me. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, but if benzo w/d has been a 10 in terms of suffering, Lexapro w/d was probably a 7.

 

Starting at about 30 days off of Lexapro I was seriously considering reinstating, so I did a lot of reading on various forums to figure how long the Lexapro withdrawal was likely to last. I found very few reports to suggest that it would last longer than 9 months. I can't remember now what I thought the average time frame was ... probably 2-4 months.

 

I would question the figure of 2-4 years. While I absolutely believe that is possible in extreme cases, I suspect at least some of the posters on paxilprogress are extreme "outliers" from a statistical standpoint.

 

Here's what I think is important from my experience for you: While Lexapro w/d was absolutely hellish for me and my improvement felt like it was happening at a glacial place, my improvement was at least relatively consistent. It seemed like in months 3, 4 and 5 it consistently got 10%-20% better each month. I could see some of the specific symptoms very slowly improving each month. By the time I was six months out I felt at least 75% healed, if not more.

 

As someone who knows how awful ssri w/d can be, I think you have reason to be very hopeful that you will start to feel substantially better in the next few months!

[[hu...]]

Wiser,

 

I feel intuitively that the Lexapro w/d set the stage for these great benzo w/d difficulties. It's not very scientific, but I feel like my brain chemistry was already in a fragile state from the Lexapro w/d.

 

I would be super careful about mixing benzo w/d with ssri w/d. Do you have to change the benzo regimen right now?

 

Also, do you see any improvement happening (albeit slowly) as you get farther out from the last time you took an SSRI? I had a handful of very specific symptoms (aside from feeling generally strange, uncomfortable and unbalanced!) that I was able to monitor for progress.

 

Hang in there. I know that feeling when you feel like you can't get through another day. It makes me tear up just thinking back to how unbearable that was!

 

Best, Human

[[co...]]

I agree with human11 and he clearly has personal experience with it cold turkey withdrawal from Lexapro. You would feel gradually better in 6-9 months and not 2 or more years. If you can tolerate that it is an acceptable option. If you do not want to go through that you can reinstate and taper slowly. I think you have a choice based on what you are doing in your life, how you are feeling and your tolerance level.

 

When I was at my low point from initial Benzo withdrawal I had to come up with a new strategy to function normally and that became my priority as I could not go on as I was feeling at the time.

 

I had to work full time and having experienced terrible symptoms when I first started tapering Ativan at 8 and 10% cuts, even 5% I was at a very low point until I slowed my taper down considerably to very minor daily cuts and spread my doses out 4 days a week. I also knew from others that getting off Lexapro was treacherous so I starting tapering very slowly from the get go. Either way, you will eventually feel better and it does not have to be as long as you think. You have a few good choices based on what feels best for you, Concerned

[[hu...]]

Guys,

 

Is there any evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that catching a cold might cause benzo withdrawal symptom flare-up?

 

I ask because I started a nasty wave almost two weeks ago and the start of the wave was concurrent with getting a bad head cold. I'm frustrated to be suffering from some pretty significant anxiety at a point where I thought I would be more stabilized ... then it occurred to me that perhaps the cold might have been a factor?

 

Thx, Human

[[pi...]]

You're right about cut and suffer pianogirl. While we may privately hold derogatory  thoughts, we don't need to air them on the forum. Sorry.

 

Okatz

 

Thank you so much Okatz! 

 

PG

[[co...]]

Human, I had a stomach bug for about 10 days when I started my daily tapering and I definitely felt more symptomatic during that period. I think others have reported similar things so they very well may be related. I hope you feel better soon, Concerned

[[Di...]]

For those of you who are doing a daily taper, do you have to throw away part of the dose? Or can you do it in a way that doesn't waste any of the medicine?

 

The portion of my batch that is left over is used as part of my next dose.

[[wi...]]

WAs only on 10mg lexapro Concerned.  I would be sooooo happy if I was only looking at a few more months of lexapro w/d. 

 

This morning I experienced my first ever episode of extreme dizziness or vertigo.  7.15 am, awake in bed when the inside of my head started spinning very fast like a top.  Sat up and it dissipated.  Laid down and it came back.  Is this likely to be a w/d symptom from valium? 

 

I've been trialing 1mg of valium for the last few days instead of the 2mg I was taking.  I thought I might be able to stabilise on 1mg given the short time I was taking valium (2 months).   

 

Anyone else experienced this?

 

 

[[co...]]

How long were you on 10mg of Lexapro and why did you decide to go off of it cold turkey? it took me 6 months to taper off of it slowly and it was a successful taper. So you can either ride it out and hope your symptoms subside, reinstate it and stabilize and go off it more slowly or try some thing like Prozac as I mentioned it is closest to Lexapro and easier to taper due to longer half life.

 

Vertigo can be a withdrawal symptom. Actually they often prescribe Valium for that. It may have been triggered by going to 1mg too quickly. Any change in medication that affects the brain needs to be tapered more slowly even if it is for 2 months. I developed a tolerance to Ativan in one month. Concerned

[[wi...]]

::::How long were you on 10mg of Lexapro and why did you decide to go off of it cold turkey?

 

5 yrs on 10mg.  I dropped my dose to 5mg last April - no knowledge of  withdrawal issues.      Got bad anxiety.  Reinsted to 10mg.  Anxiety remained.    Four months later changed to Paxil.  One month later stopped paxil due to horrible side effects.    Very upset GI system on Paxil.    Gastric reflux, bad diarrhoea waking me at night, dry mouth and burning lips and face at 4 weeks on.  Waited 10 days and reinstated Lexapro at 5mgs.    Couldn't seem to tolerate Lexapro anymore.  Very bad gastric reflux and other.    Couldn't eat.  WEight loss continuing.  Very thin.  Decrease to 2.5mg.  Doctor said no point taking lexapro now as cannot get on to a dose high enough to help.  Doc said withdrawal only a couple of weeks.    They want me to take other a/d but not sure my body can tolerate SSRIs now.    I have celiac disease.    I think the only answer is to get onto a new a/d. Citalopram is meant to be close to lexapro too?   

 

 

 

 

:::: it took me 6 months to taper off of it slowly and it was a successful taper.

 

I just didnt' know about tapering.    I tapered off 5mg over a couple of weeks without difficulty.    But a few weeks later I crashed.    Many people believe the doctor when they say it's only 3 weeks of feeling a bit off when you stop a/ds.  I only found out about long term withdrawal mid November.

 

 

::::So you can either ride it out and hope your symptoms subside, reinstate it and stabilize and go off it more slowly or try some thing like Prozac as I mentioned it is closest to Lexapro and easier to taper due to longer half life.

 

 

Wish they were easier to get on.  The start up side effects are so bad for me now.  Didn't have any bother 5 yrs ago when I started on lexapro but now I can't seem to take them.  Is it just a matter of putting up with 6 weeks of utter misery?

 

::::Vertigo can be a withdrawal symptom. Actually they often prescribe Valium for that. It may have been triggered by going to 1mg too quickly. Any change in medication that affects the brain needs to be tapered more slowly even if it is for 2 months. I developed a tolerance to Ativan in one month.

 

Yes I agree with you.      Thank you so much for your reply re the vertigo.  If I'm to avoid vertigo I need to take 2 mgs per day of valium yeah? 

[[...]]

Hello guys my details are below, sorry if you have replied but I cant see it, any help on a taper would be great.

 

Thanks in advance:)

 

Hello all.

 

I think I have hit tolerance big time and basically struggle to do much although barely hold a job down.

 

I need to withdrawal diazepam 30mg. I take 10 mg x 3 daily and been on the drug for over 10 years.

 

I take it at 7am, 3pm, 7pm.

 

Any advice of reduction, whether my times to take my doses are ok or should they change would be appreciated.

 

I really do need help with this.

 

Thanks in advance

[[wi...]]

To recap my valium dependancy,  I was taking 2mg - divided in to 1mg late morning and late afternoon dose (actually took as required but this was usually every day) for 2 months.

 

 

Does withdrawal severity and time period to recover equate to doseage and time on the drug?  If I do a taper from 2mg what sort of time period would be wise to taper over?    It seems like I have to take a lot more valium in order to stop taking it.  Seems counterintuative.    I can't be the first person to think like this.... 

[[et...]]

Gra - your situation is very unique to me as most people cross over from a fast acting Benzo to Valium for the slow decent. Would you mind telling us how you got to 30mg from the start dose? Did you hit tolerance each time you added more Valium and then hit tolerance again and again?

etown

[[jj...]]

Thanks DP, that's good to know. I probably won't have much wiggle room w/ my dose to be throwing it away.

[[Sm...]]

Wisernow:

 

I'm on citalopram. I plan to taper at least to a pretty low amount after this. I was reading surviving depressants who say taper the AD off first but I'm pretty sure I don't agree. Sure SSRIs can cause sleep problems but unless on a high dose they wont overly rev you up. And some ADs don't rev you up much at all. Of course these things are dose dependant and everyone is different. The thing is though ADs are anxiolytics. And well frankly everyone needs all the anxiolytic they can get when tapering benzos. I don't know if people should necessarily pick up an SSRI to taper the benzo though - if people are desperate there are probably more suitable ADs. As for you though - you are in SSRI withdrawal and want out. Citalopram is virtually the same drug as Lexapro. Just less powerful and has a longer half life.

 

As for estrogen being post-menopausal - Diazepam might have more knowledge here. I'm pretty sure you can still take a bit of estrogen. I read some post menopausal women taking very low doses for osteoporosis defence.

 

Now on to your benzos: yes 2mg V as needed taken for not a long time probably seemed like not much. Unfortunately serax is a benzo though. I can sympathise why you don't want to switch to a bigger valium dose to taper both. It seems like a big hill to climb but that is hill you've got whether it is under the name serax or valium. It would be easiest to just taper valium.

 

I don't envy you your position. Its horrible when you find out the hold these drugs have on you and see that big long hill you have to climb all because you took a prescribed pill.

 

Sadly it is what it is though..

 

Peace

Smiff

[[Di...]]

::::This is a little left field but Estrogen is a pretty amazing sleep aid. It also really helps with benzo w/d.

 

I'm post menopause.    Would phytoestrogens be any good?  I could eat slabs of bean curd if it would help?   

 

 

 

I will quote directly what Dr Heather Currie says on her website "Menopause Matters", because I don't trust the copious amount of "alternative" practitioner websites to give impartial or correct information. I have highlighted comments which I think are relevant. Incidentally, this website has an excellent forum section for women with peri/meno issues.

 

http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/phytoestrogens.php

 

The interest in Phytoestrogens has developed because of the epidemiological evidence that diets rich in these compounds have led women in Japan and Asia to appear to have a much lower incidence of "Western diseases" such as heart disease, osteoporosis, and cancers of breast, colon, and womb. Women in these countries do not appear to suffer the same way with hot flushes and sweats as we do in the western world.

 

Whether we can attain the same protection by starting their diet later in life remains to be seen and the difference may also be related to other factors such as cultural differences in attitude to menopause.

 

Phytoestrogens are derived from naturally occurring compounds that have estrogenic activity. They have a similar chemical structure to estrogen and bind to the estrogen receptors, acting like hormone regulators. As a group of compounds they exhibit many properties and can behave by boosting estrogen effects even though the dose is very small. As a group of compounds they also seem to have anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties and may reduce the effects of viruses.

 

Phytoestrogens have been shown in some clinical trials [Ref 5 and Ref 29] to reduce hot flushes significantly, although many of the trials were undertaken over short periods e.g. 3 months and some trials have shown limited effect.

 

Phytoestrogens can be taken either by increasing dietary intake or from supplements. To rely on dietary intake alone would involve the ingestion of large amounts of legume food plants, such as peas and beans, with variation in their quantities of phytoestrogens. There are many supplements now available which aim to be equivalent to a typical Japanese diet rich in phytoestrogens.red clover

 

There are four classes of phytoestrogens that have been most investigated: isoflavones, lignans, flavones and coumestrans. Isoflavones are the most common form and include genistein, daidzein and glycitin.

 

Novogen Red Clover is an excellent source of several isoflavones. There are many other options on the market but this one is well studied and tested and is made from a standardised extract. Always check the label!! It can be quite an expensive option but cheaper than buying the similar food sources on a daily basis. Red Clover or Promensil in the USA has been endorsed by the Food and Drug Administration as cholesterol lowering and prostate cancer reducing.

 

Another link on her website, which I also think is very relevant, is where she is talking in general about alternative remedies and she mentions the adverse nature of some of them. http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/otherpreps.php

 

This and other changes have resulted in more confidence about products bought over the counter, however you must still be careful, as 'natural' doesn't necessarily mean 'safe'. Some products had been found to contain contaminants and some Chinese medicines had been found to contain small amounts of active drugs. Cases of kidney toxicity have been reported. Consequently, if you have any doubts, ask a qualified healthcare professional.

 

From my own personal POV, phytoestrogens are a crock. They never worked for me, and I spent $3000 going to a naturopath to prove it. I also got hooked on valium in the process. I also have friends who have tried these over the counter preparations with absolutely no benefits at all. However, like we always say on BB, everyone is different.

 

My opinion is that there will never be any substitute for properly regulated natural hormones, and these are only available from a medical doctor.

 

I am post-meno, and there is no way in hell anyone is going to take my estrogen away from me...lol...

 

[[Th...]]

 

 

Hi T

 

Good to hear from you. I hope everything is going well with your taper. What dose are you at now? How are you going with the lyme diagnosis?

 

Arggghh, didn't get a notification about this for some reason.  And now there are about 20 more new pages on here!

 

I'm on 1.5ml a day, two doses.  I was planning on tapering the AM dose and staying on 1mg (1/2 a tablet) while I got off that.  But things have been worse and I started wondering whether the change in doses - jumping constantly to twice as much every evening - might be a really bad idea.  So at the start of the year I changed it to all liquid and equal doses of .75ml a time.  Feeling pretty darned rocky at the moment and think it could be taking a bit of adjusting to.

 

The Lyme stuff combined with this has been an awful combination.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  Suspect both make each other infinitely worse.  I'm still treating the Lyme gently with herbals and will keep doing that until I feel I've recovered from the withdrawal.  Then reassess.  Have seen some improvements.

 

How are things in your world DP?

[[un...]]

I feel like this is going to take forever and my signature will fill an entire page by the time I'm done.

 

Been tapering V @ .0125 mg most of the past month. Tried .015 for a week and began feeling pretty bad, so returned to .0125. Is this really low for a daily cut?  Doesn't 4.1 to 3.75 mg in a month seem awfully slow?

 

I need a reality check or something.

 

Thanks. -utc

[[Di...]]

 

 

Hi T

 

Good to hear from you. I hope everything is going well with your taper. What dose are you at now? How are you going with the lyme diagnosis?

 

Arggghh, didn't get a notification about this for some reason.  And now there are about 20 more new pages on here!

 

I'm on 1.5ml a day, two doses.  I was planning on tapering the AM dose and staying on 1mg (1/2 a tablet) while I got off that.  But things have been worse and I started wondering whether the change in doses - jumping constantly to twice as much every evening - might be a really bad idea.  So at the start of the year I changed it to all liquid and equal doses of .75ml a time.  Feeling pretty darned rocky at the moment and think it could be taking a bit of adjusting to.

 

The Lyme stuff combined with this has been an awful combination.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  Suspect both make each other infinitely worse.  I'm still treating the Lyme gently with herbals and will keep doing that until I feel I've recovered from the withdrawal.  Then reassess.  Have seen some improvements.

 

How are things in your world DP?

 

Sorry to hear things have been rough for you, but I'm also pleased to hear that your dose is getting so low. Things are going well for me. The lower I get the more improvements I can see, but caution is still very much needed.

[[Di...]]

I feel like this is going to take forever and my signature will fill an entire page by the time I'm done.

 

Been tapering V @ .0125 mg most of the past month. Tried .015 for a week and began feeling pretty bad, so returned to .0125. Is this really low for a daily cut?  Doesn't 4.1 to 3.75 mg in a month seem awfully slow?

 

I need a reality check or something.

 

Thanks. -utc

 

Not at all. I was also cutting by about 0.012mg-0.015mg at that same level. I wish I could still cut by that much..lol...

 

If you're interested in percentages (which I'm not, but a lot of people are), over the last month you have cut 0.35mg which is just over 8% of 4.1mg. Not too shabby by any means.

 

Anyway, you shouldn't compare your taper to anyone else. Everyone has to do what is best for them. Daily tapering isn't about speed. It's about keeping your s/x as manageable as possible so you can get on with your life. You could go faster, but with speed usually comes an increase in s/x.

[[wi...]]

:::::I'm on citalopram. I plan to taper at least to a pretty low amount after this. I was reading surviving depressants who say taper the AD off first but I'm pretty sure I don't agree. Sure SSRIs can cause sleep problems but unless on a high dose they wont overly rev you up. And some ADs don't rev you up much at all. Of course these things are dose dependant and everyone is different. The thing is though ADs are anxiolytics. And well frankly everyone needs all the anxiolytic they can get when tapering benzos. I don't know if people should necessarily pick up an SSRI to taper the benzo though - if people are desperate there are probably more suitable ADs. As for you though - you are in SSRI withdrawal and want out. Citalopram is virtually the same drug as Lexapro. Just less powerful and has a longer half life.

 

Smiff,  thanks for the information.  I heard that about Citalopram.    I'm in quite a mess as you rightly point out.    Today I woke up with bad vertigo.  Head spinning crazilly  - thought I was having a stroke.    Not sure if it's benzo w/d or lexapro w/d?    I realised today that taking valium makes me feel cold - I shiver after I take it even though it's summer.  Even 1mg makes me feel cold.    That seems odd to me.  If I could get on to the Citalopram I could address the benzo dependancy first.    But I just don't know if my stomach can take it.     

 

Have you read James Heaney's blog about tapering?    You might not be able to save me a lot of angst but reading his blog might be save you a bit of trouble.  Slow taper for SSRI's is the same as with benzos.

.

 

::::Now on to your benzos: yes 2mg V as needed taken for not a long time probably seemed like not much. Unfortunately serax is a benzo though.

 

So are you thinking that coz of Serax I got addicted to valium more easily?    I've been told not to taper benzo's at the same time as being in W/D from lexapro but I think if I taper valium slowly I can do it....  yes?   

 

:::I can sympathise why you don't want to switch to a bigger valium dose to taper both. It seems like a big hill to climb but that is hill you've got whether it is under the name serax or valium. It would be easiest to just taper valium.

 

So I can just taper the valium?  Will my Serax use complicate the taper?   

 

:::::I don't envy you your position. Its horrible when you find out the hold these drugs have on you and see that big long hill you have to climb all because you took a prescribed pill.

 

WEll it keeps getting harder now that I've developed serious balance issues.    I won't be able to drive if it stays like this.  A reason to consider taking citalopram.   

 

To be totally honest with you guys - I'm still in denial about valium addiction and trying to cut back my use of it to just 1mg per day for a week and then to a quarter etc etc.    Does that make you laugh at my folly?          Even though Diaz-pam has written up a great schedule I'm so unwell i think I may as well add benzo withdrawal to the lexapro withdawal misery.  Kidding myself that I've not been on it long etc etc.  That's how I got here by kidding myself btw!

 

Diaz-pam  Thank you for the stuff on phytoestrogens.    Will read it later as my eyes are so sore from trying to read my way out of this mess.      I pretty much think as you do about phytoestrogens though.  Kinda needed to be on them as with the Japanese diet and not eat a western diet for 60 yrs.