Methylation Cycle dysfunction a possible part of benzo withdrawal picture

[[Se...]]

Off -

I'm heterozygous 677t. Plus other garbage. My NAT2 is RED so I understand why the Klonopin didn't work. But it seems I am a fast metabolizer. My valium only lasts about 5 hours. But my CYP enzymes seem to be morphing from the beginning of this. I can eat specific things and KNOW my body is "updosing" via my liver metabolism. All kinds of crazy stuff - pineapple papaya herbs (I know about those) but now onions and garlic are doing something. Definitely feel like I am going nowhere slowly.

Magnesium Malate seems to keep my brain clear along with carbohydrates - potatoes bananas apples. Definitely a methylation relationship to the hormones. Really feel stuck. Have to stay somewhat clear because of my diabetes so just hanging by threads. Feel like I may detox too much and perplexed as many others are.

Still here though. I should not be - so many times I. This.

I am taking a multi with 400 methylfolate, mag malate,  1/3 of a "B minus" by Seeking health, B1 as I am bordeine low all the time, and a sliver of adenosyl B12 under my lip. But I honestly can't say what is what. I ask my doc to check my B bitins  ever couple months but that means I have to stop them for a couple days and that's when the floor drops out so I have no clue if that means they are working or making things worse?

Just disgusted with this as all are.

Trying to stay positive!

Good luck on your testing Rose!

Selah

[[ro...]]

I am so confused.. I am going to have blood test this time..next Friday the 27 th...

Gene test for mhtfr.  B12,  the saliva test revealed only the folate problem I'm going to a dr who  Specializes in gene testing.

I don't know if I need extra B12 , a pill, a shot...whatever.

I'm tired of this...

What if liver metabolism is slow or fast? My saliva test was messed up again after waiting 3 weeks. The lab repeated the folate test and not the liver metabolism test.

I have to go again tomorrow with this pysch dr. To repeat saliva test.  But I found another specialist as I said, and I'm going to see what he finds with blood draw..on the 27th.

 

Just getting more confused...do you guys just taper, no supplements, or do some of you take supplements due to the results of your gene test results?

I want to be healthy, do what's best, but I'm confused....did I mention that?

 

Rose

[[Sm...]]

Don't worry about it Rose. You don't need to know everything. No one knows everything about this stuff. Working with genes is a new field. Methylation, bodies, and benzo wd are crazy mind-blowingly complicated.

 

I have started taking supplements but mostly just testing them to see my response to them. B12 is working well for me. I almost need it now or the anxiety surges start up again. It doesn't work on GABA or anything but it does help to get the whole methylation cycle working properly which includes eliminating nasties like ammonia, glutamate, cortisol and adrenaline.

I'm yet to try the methyl folate. This weekend I will and next week I will probably be starting a full program of supplementation for methylation with my polymorphisms in mind.

 

For me at this stage it will look like:

NAC

Methyl B12

Methyl folate

B6

Riboflavin

and probably magnesium and zinc.

 

I don't know the amounts that will work well. I know I'll have to take small doses throughout the day. Big doses at once result in surging and instability which benzo wd doesn't need.

For instance I took 1mg of methyl b12 and didn't feel great - though did sleep amazing and had awesome clearance of adrenaline and cortisol. Then I tried it again where I just took small amounts of it all day. I still took the same amount but throughout the day and I felt fine - better even.

 

This is very new to me though so it may go completely arse up

Sooo.. can't really give any advice

Did that help any? 

[[Se...]]

Hi all!

 

Rose, Smiff and everyone else...

Just after reading Smiffs post a note on the Magnesium Advocacy Group that I belong to showed up regarding methylation... it is a link regarding supplementing methylfolate (Deplin is a high form of this) and B12. It cautions toaye sure your electrolytes are in balance (among other things that I am not so sure about with regards to Benzo withdrawal" but is worth a read.

Hope it helps.

Mineral balancing is HUGE in all of this - diet alone can affect a ton of things with minerals frog what I have read so I totally agree with his thoughts on electrolytes/minerals. Not sure about all his supplement recommendations as I said. But the info on starting slow and how to do it is helpful.

 

http://mthfr.net/preventing-methylfolate-side-effects/2014/11/26/

 

Smiff - just curious, have you had you B vitamins checked? We're they off? Just curious as mine were.

My glutathione was checked last year and was nonexistent. Not sure where I stand now as I can't afford the Spectracell test again. But my Bs have been low in a variety of places. Thanks!

 

Blessings,

Selah

 

Blessings,

Selah

 

 

 

 

[[ro...]]

Hi Smiff,

Selah,

 

Smiff,

Did your dr do the blood or saliva test?

I am trying to get my primary care doctor to do blood test....to check my b vitamins, Etc...

Or is the saliva  test better?

 

I am so more confused Smiff, and worried that my body is missing vital nutrients..

This gene info is so new..

 

How did you find out what supplements to take?  Would otc b12 work do you think?

Just buy it at the store..

 

Smiff, I'm worried . I'm older, 62.....im younger looking, but havnt felt well since tapering and tolerance last 2 years ago.

 

This is all confusing to me..

I take the deplin, but I don't notice much change in depression..maybe. I need the b12 too, but my Physch dr. doesn't  go into all that, he just said to take l methyl folate , deplin every day...

I feel tossed around by these doctors.....so I thought I would ask my primary dr to help me...

 

I'm worried.

 

Thank you Smiff,

Rose.

 

 

[[Sm...]]

Yea I had bloods and everything was low really. Bs definitely were.

 

I had the saliva genetic test Rose.

 

I've read that on preparing for methylfolate. I agree methylfolate should be taking cautiously, slowly, and well supported by other things. Rose I'm impressed you are holding up so well with just methylfolate on its own. It is good you are, but yea.. interesting.

[[Co...]]

Got all my stuff back and uploaded. I'm more confused than ever.

[[Sm...]]

Got all my stuff back and uploaded. I'm more confused than ever.

 

mm?

 

Did you use the MTHFR.net one? All of them are the same but that one has a good layout. I'll repost what I wrote to peace

[[Sm...]]

I wrote this earlier:

 

Have you run it through the site on MTHFR? You probably want to do that.

 

Once you've done that the ones to most look for probably (given I'm not an expert in this area are)

 

CYP enzymes. They are at the top of the MTHFR read out. If you have any red or yellow ones then you are likely a slower metaboliser of drugs

 

The following are in the 'methylation' part of the MTHFR read out

 

GAD - if they are red or yellow - depending on how many - then you may have a less efficient GAD enzyme which is responsible for converting glutamate to GABA

 

CBS - if they are red or yellow - then you may have an issue with CBS enzyme which is responsible for many many things. The upshot on here though is if it isn't running efficiently you can get build up of ammonia. Little known fact: Ammonia is a BIG hitter of NMDA receptors (the ones that are implicated with glutamate excitability. Ammonia is a bit like glutamate in its excitory ways. Look up ammonia toxicity and you'll see what I mean

 

COMT and MAO - if they are red or yellow - then you have slower functioning COMT and MAO enzymes. They are responsible for clearing/converting Adrenaline, Dopamine, cortisol? (MAO is also responsible for serontonin)

 

MTHFR - MTHFR enzyme is one of the main ones that supply methyl folate to all of the enzymes listed above - and more - in the methylation cycle. They need methyl groups to do their work. Without it, it doesn't matter if they are working they won't do the job. So having red on this can mean all of the above, and more, are working less efficiently.

 

[[Co...]]

Thanks stiff I'll check it out again.

[[Sm...]]

This paper was interesting, not so much because of Parkinson's disease but it has a good run down of COMT and MAO

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3924247/

 

This one also caught my attention. It has to do with CFS patients but still I think their hypothesis on some of the chronic cyclical dysfunction could be applicable to the problem case of benzo wd.

 

It describes the gluthathione depletion methylation block hypothesis of CFS.

 

The person has a number of genetic predisposing factors to CFS - COMT V158M, BHMT 08, MTHFR, MTR A, CBS C699Y

• The person then experiences some combination of a variety of possible stressors

(physical, chemical, biological, and/or psychological/emotional) that place demands on

glutathione.

• Glutathione levels drop, producing oxidative stress, removing protection from cobalamin

(vitamin B12) and allowing toxins to accumulate.

• Toxins react with cobalamin, lowering the rate of formation of methylcobalamin.

• Lack of sufficient methylcobalamin inhibits the activity of methionine synthase, placing

a partial block in the methylation and folate cycles.• Sulfur metabolites drain excessively through the transsulfuration pathway to form

cysteine.

• Much of the cysteine is oxidized to cystine because of the state of oxidative stress, and is

therefore not available for the synthesis of glutathione. An alternative pathway initiated

with catalysis by cystathionine gamma lyase carries the cystine on to form hydrogen

sulfide and thiosulfate, and the latter is excreted in the urine.

• An interaction (vicious circle) is established between the partial block in the methylation

cycle and glutathione depletion, and the disorder therefore becomes chronic.

• A wide range of symptoms results from these chronic abnormalities in the basic

biochemistry of the cells.

• The dysfunction of the detoxication system and the immune system that results from this

combination allows toxins and infections to accumulate over time, which increasingly

produce effects of their own.

• Treatment should be directed primarily at increasing the activity of methionine synthase.

The resulting normalization of the methylation cycle, the folate metabolism and

glutathione levels will restore function to the immune system and the detoxication

system as well as to a wide range of other parts of the overall biochemistry.

• It can be expected that die-off of pathogens and mobilization of stored toxins will

initially produce some exacerbation of symptoms, but improvements will be experienced

as the body burdens of toxins and active infections are decreased.

 

http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/www.mecfs-vic.org.au/files/Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf

 

 

Not that my experience is remotely good scientific evidence, but I had the biggest turn arounds with NAC - gluthathione support - and methyl B12, which fits the above hypothesis. I've only had good results for 2 weeks though so there is a long way to go. And in reality I think it is much more complicated and I'd be surprised if COMT and MAO weren't implicated because the loss of methylb12 would also effect COMT and MAO snp holders more on the catecholomine metabolisation front.

[[Sm...]]

Article on how treating MTHFR helped one woman's anxiety in my home city. The difficult thing is there is never one protocol. But that is the point really: medicine can never be fully generalisable. Hopefully as more information about genetics, and epigenetics emerges, we will move away from that totally broken model.

 

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/lifestyle/sa-lifestyle/how-a-vitamin-cured-my-anxiety-elisa-blacks-story-of-lifelong-struggle-and-new-hope-for-the-future/story-fnizi7vf-1227251037624

 

[Guest [Ma...]]

Good article Smiff.

Thanks for sharing

[[ro...]]

Sniff,

Yes, good read, thank you..

 

I still take deplin, but not sure how much b12 to take,,

I saw sublingual tabs at store..

Do you know what a moderate dose would be?

 

My dr doesn't think I need b12, he said my blood levels were fine.

 

Hope u are good.. I have a disk, neck injury. Type is hard..

Hugs,

 

Rose

[[Sm...]]

Sniff,

Yes, good read, thank you..

 

I still take deplin, but not sure how much b12 to take,,

I saw sublingual tabs at store..

Do you know what a moderate dose would be?

 

My dr doesn't think I need b12, he said my blood levels were fine.

 

Hope u are good.. I have a disk, neck injury. Type is hard..

Hugs,

 

Rose

 

You could try 200mg of the sublingual methyl b12 twice a day? But Rosie there are some people who have issues with methyl b12- one type of COMT polymorphism for instance

So you could try it

But yea

If you are really interested in this route I'd be seeing someone listed on the mthfr.net website

[[pe...]]

I just had a consultation with a functional medicine doc around the genetic testing I had done. She knows her stuff and new much about my body just through interpreting my genetic results. I was laughing at all the things she could 'read' in the test. She understands that benzos cause receptor damage and also feels like there are some chronic deficiencies because of how my body works (MTHFR being one of these things) that might help my overall health even if they do nothing for the symptoms caused by benzo withdrawal. I'm open to this approach.

 

BUT she also recommended a test that runs close to $800 that would look at my blood levels of all kinds of things like vitamins and minerals, etc. She  said it's not necessary, but would be helpful in putting together the best plan based on what my body is currently getting/not getting. Is this a waste of time and money at this point? I'd like to believe she can find something that might help a little bit. I tell myself that I know there's nothing to help withdrawal but that maybe it will help my overall health and I'll feel a bit better. What do you think? Is this just wishful thinking? Should I try her basic suggestions without getting the more specific test or just go for it and spend the $800? I think we'd all spend $800 if we could and we thought it might help…I'm just not sure it will be anything besides wasted time, money and energy.

 

Thanks for reading the ramble and weighing in.

Peace2

[[Se...]]

Peace.

My gut tells me if u have the money. Yes. Even if it's just different foods that you could eat. What is the name of the test? Man I wish I could find a doctor like that here in Ohio! So frustrating. I had Spectracell done and it showed major glutathione deficiency. High choline cans low chromium. I know my magnesium is low from a Mag RBC. And my zinc and copper are out of whack. But so hard to figure out without help and Benzo brain. And really hard when doc won't listen to you. Also have really low B1and B2. Can't mess with low B vitamins. But those tests were covered by insurance. (Spectracell was not). You could see how many tests you could get done by insurance from the vitamin mineral side of things. I am stuck because of being on the Benzo and everything I eat/take affects the darn Benzo ansorption.

If she knows of anyone else like her let me know!

Sounds like you at least have somebody that will work with you ! Congrats!

Selah.

[[be...]]

A lot of interesting info on this thread. Selah, I see you are in Ohio..so am I. Not a lot of knowledgeable benzo wize docs here. I'm so grateful for this site and the information here.

Much healing to all.

[[Sm...]]

Peace.

My gut tells me if u have the money. Yes. Even if it's just different foods that you could eat. What is the name of the test? Man I wish I could find a doctor like that here in Ohio! So frustrating. I had Spectracell done and it showed major glutathione deficiency. High choline cans low chromium. I know my magnesium is low from a Mag RBC. And my zinc and copper are out of whack. But so hard to figure out without help and Benzo brain. And really hard when doc won't listen to you. Also have really low B1and B2. Can't mess with low B vitamins. But those tests were covered by insurance. (Spectracell was not). You could see how many tests you could get done by insurance from the vitamin mineral side of things. I am stuck because of being on the Benzo and everything I eat/take affects the darn Benzo ansorption.

If she knows of anyone else like her let me know!

Sounds like you at least have somebody that will work with you ! Congrats!

Selah.

 

I know people who will consult over skype. The red mountain clinic guy will for instance.

 

I wrote out a response to you Peace but it seems like it was lost in the interwebs.

I said, I couldn't really say what to do because it was very individual.

I did also add that I, and my nutritionist/functional dr, did mostly work out what I needed to take based on my genetics and my reaction to it - so I'd try something for a few days without anything else and record the results.

 

Selah B1 helps GABA production and B2 is the cofactor for MAO which is part of catecholomine metabolisation so I'd try and get on them. Also benzos apparently reduce B2, and I wouldn't be surprised if it drops gluthathione - like alcohol does - due to liver strain (maybe only V). I tried liposomal gluthathione and it was less good. NAC was good but you need a really good one.

[[Se...]]

Smiff - I can't figure my body out. I was physically a wreck before this from my bout with the flu. I have to dose valium 3 times per day. The duration of action for me is limited. I know this has to do something with my detox pathway. Really wish it worked longer.

Here's my dilemma. Benzo related ... Yes. Methylation related ... Yes. Vitamin deficiency ... Yes. For me anyway I am convinced. I cannot function without a steady flow of carbohydrates all day long. Get HORRIBLE brain fog, but not only that, my body physically shuts down. Once the carbs kick in it's like a light switch. Big problem for a diabetic. I know B1 helps make seratonin, folate too... Methylation things. If I try to stop supplants after I start them I can't. Not sure if the supplements are creating more liver pathway:methylation dysfunction or not. Also am nonexistent in CoQ10 which I know is essential for mitochondrial function. We need folate for bodily function but if we add to much we create more detox. Same with the B12, etc. That's what makes me hesitant about the NAC. Have seen info on it for glutathione. But worried about ramping up detox. Did your functional med doc have any I sight on this? Just curious. Thanks.

Blessings to all for this thread!

[[Sm...]]

I don't think we thought too much in the extra detox front

To be honest I think I NEED extra detox; not so much of v but all the crap that comes from withdrawal: adrenaline, cortisol, and other crap because my system is overloaded trying to detox the v plus the chemicals from withdrawal

 

The best effects I've had are from methyl folate and methyl b12

 

i can taper faster even with them. So I'm not worried about detox. My body needs help with that because of mthfr and other less then helpful polymorphism a

 

I think if I stopped the methyl folate and b12 my symptoms would get worse too. I don't think that has anything to do with dependency but rather my body needs that stuff to go through the process of withdrawal

Once withdrawal is through I will no doubt be able to stop those nutrients but there may not be much of a reason to.

[[ro...]]

Hey Smiff,

I know I'm not as sharp lately,

You may have told me....

I take methy folate. Deplin, 7.5 mg, I split the capsule...

I started b12 sublingual. 1000 mcg. I think..

 

How do you take your folate?

 

I'm so glad you are good, you sound wonderful.  I'm dealing with neck injury, degenerative , aging changes too. Trying to stay positive, continue on , keeping anxiety down as much as I cna.

Still have the morning cortisol surges too..

 

 

 

Rose

[[Sm...]]

Hey Smiff,

I know I'm not as sharp lately,

You may have told me....

I take methy folate. Deplin, 7.5 mg, I split the capsule...

I started b12 sublingual. 1000 mcg. I think..

 

How do you take your folate?

 

I'm so glad you are good, you sound wonderful.  I'm dealing with neck injury, degenerative , aging changes too. Trying to stay positive, continue on , keeping anxiety down as much as I cna.

Still have the morning cortisol surges too..

 

 

 

Rose

 

I take 400mcg of methyl folate a day and 1mg of methyl b12 sublingual

 

I didn't start on 1mg though Rosie. You might be better to start with only half twice daily? How have you responded to that much methyl b12?

[[Se...]]

Hi Smiff how is the methylation protocol ur doing going for you? Has it impacted sleep, symptoms, etc? Hope u are well.

I am doing a phone/skype call next week with a doctor who researches  a lot on MTHFR. Hopefully he has some insights. But really nervous about what advice to take or not take. Will have to check in back here to see what you all think.

I had been doing Seeking Health b minus but realized it has a ton of niacin in it which inadvertantly may have been stopping my methylation. Not sure how to get off it. Will have to taper but I need the other Bs as my body is limited. Very frustrating. Wish there was more vitamin options out there that's for sure!

Have started developing a histamine related rash on my back the dermatologist beleives. I am guessing it's methylation related. But benzos could be too. :o/ she also said that the sometimes give benzos for this type of thing - WHAT? Crazy! And this was a new doc out of medschool. Crazy is all I can say!

Hope you are well

Blessings

Selah

[[ro...]]

Smiff,

I take 7.5 mg methyl folate, I only take half the capsule..I take 500 mcg I think b12, under the tongue..just a store brand..

My dr says my b12 serum levels were normal..

My dry really know nothing much about this...only my need for the folate..bc of my genetic test results..my lab was Millinium in Calif.

 

At this point, lots of extreme family stress, I'm just taking these, a woman's over 50 multi, and tapering. Not having any more tests. Simply getting through the day.to the next..maybe I'm not as depressed as months ago, maybe the folate has helped a little..but my anxiety is still present, esp the 4 am cortisol surges...oh, I loathe them..

I saw a formula for a drink, oj, cream of tarter, and Himalayan sea salt...

Where does one get that salt?

Suppose to help the cortisol surge..

 

Be good,

 

Rose