Methylation Cycle dysfunction a possible part of benzo withdrawal picture

[[pe...]]

Smiff-

Did you use a site to read your 23andme results? If so, which one? It sounds like it requires some degree of expertise to understand. Who could you take this kind of report to? Which kind if professional would be most helpful with interpreting results?

 

My kit is on it's way to my home. Just getting the ball rolling...

 

I'm trying to find more about diet.... is paleo the 'right' idea?

Thanks,

Peace2

[[Se...]]

Peace

Above GMIT listed some sites that you can upload your info to. Genetic Genie, Livewello, there are others. Integrative doctor may be u on the MTHFR things but 2 of my doctors had a "one size fits all approach" and have read enough to know that's not helpful.

Too big of monster to tackle. Have to look for specific doctor. I also think while tapering is different than after tapering in addressing stuff. Not sure. I know there is a woman here on BB who had successfully tapered and was healed and then tried to tackle her MYHFR and was sent back into withdrawal. So I am a bit overwhelmed. Knowledge is power. But sometimes too much knowledge is worse. Not sure. If this can help someone else great! I just have no clue where to go myself. If you induce methylation you induce detox pathways.

 

Smiff,

Here a link to a photo / diagram of benzos and their Cyp action regarding breakdown and detox in the liver which all relates to methylation. I have the NAT2 polymorphism which affects Klonopin metabolism. Wish I would have known that! Also have a CYP2C19 issue. Not sure how that plays into it.

I don't have the money but somebody mentioned Genelex in the US that will test and tell you what meds to avoid because of your polymorphism a with your doctors approval.

Doesn't help me right now. Just trying to figure out how to get off the darn stuff.

Foods affect me big time, and I think my processing and Cyp enzymes have actually changed through this process. I had read that "starvation" scenarios cam upregulate CYP enzymes but no clue where I read it.

Anyway, here is the diagram link

 

http://www.pharmgkb.org/pathway/PA165111375

 

 

 

Blessings to all on this Jouney!

Selah

 

 

[Guest [Ma...]]

Hello Friends,

I have pursued Genelex, Spectracell, 23andme and Livewello all in hopes of trying to demystify the genetic/nutritional/neurotransmitter/ benzo interplay. It's been an interesting and overwhelming journey.

I do believe that there is a connection. For me, after failing a few times to discontinue a lower dose of K (.75 mg), and experiencing liver enzyme & bilirubin elevation and many diagnostically unexplained neurological issues, I found it curious that when genetically tested for the NAT2 pathway (Genelex) I discovered I was a slow acetylator - my liver was struggling to detox the drug and it became neurotoxic. My liver was working very hard; I was yellow from the ekevated bilirubin. Doctors completely missed the causal relationship.

What I find interesting, is that caffeine & sulphate drugs are also broken down via NAT2 - I react strongly to both.  I cannot tolerate sulpha drugs and now I believe I have a better understanding why.

I've been working with an integrative physician, with a background in biochemistry, to understand this cutting edge look at benzo toxicity. Although not curative, the nutritional tweaking has been helpful. I will be retesting the Genova NutrEval and Spectracell tests withing a few weeks to see if my body has made measurable corrections.

 

Marija

[[Se...]]

Marija,

Good for you! So glad you have found someone that is willing to help! Who is the doctor you are seeing?? I am struggling to find someone to help! And my anxiety makes things less easily absorbable mentally! Been a mess.

So much info it's crazy!

Truly glad you are able to find someone to help!

 

Like I mentioned earlier the Facebook group Magnesium Advocacy Group has a lot of interesting info. If you join, the latest thread by "Dana Summers" on glycinate and methylation has been intriguing. Lots of things related to magnesium, copper, zinc imbalances and how the liver works. Maybe your biochemistry doc knows more!

Good luck!

Blessings!

Selah

[[pe...]]

Interesting marija,

I had allergic reactions to sulfa drugs as a child and it's always been on my list. Also can't do caffeine.

I found the naturopath I use on the mthfr.net list. Hopefully she'll be helpful when results come back. All of this is way over my head, but I definitely think it's key to understanding sensitivities we have to meds,etc.

it's amazing how much we have to be our own scientists/doctors.

[[bu...]]

Butterfly1

Sorry to hear about your struggles! There is a book I have been reading called "Could It be B12? An Epidemic of Misdiagnosis" by Dr. Jeffrey Stuart and Sally Pacholok. Very intriguing info. B12 deficiency is widely undetected and the normal ranges the doctors use when tested are evidently too low.

Especially being a vegetarian. This also ties in with methylation. May be worth getting yours checked out. Different B12 forms affect people differently based on gene mutations. Just a thought.

Blessings

Selah

 

i have been on a supplement for years, but concerned about the ingredients after reading some/ of the back/posts. my doc is pretty good about testing nutritional stuff and she told me to also add b6 and magnesium a few years aback. not sure what got her to look for the adrenal insufficinecy now, wondering if it goes with thryoid since they work together.

 

i still need to read more of these back posts, had a clear day today but the weather was mild so i got out with a friend for a bit then a long walk in the woods. Tree energy always improves my energy!

[[Sm...]]

Hello Friends,

I have pursued Genelex, Spectracell, 23andme and Livewello all in hopes of trying to demystify the genetic/nutritional/neurotransmitter/ benzo interplay. It's been an interesting and overwhelming journey.

I do believe that there is a connection. For me, after failing a few times to discontinue a lower dose of K (.75 mg), and experiencing liver enzyme & bilirubin elevation and many diagnostically unexplained neurological issues, I found it curious that when genetically tested for the NAT2 pathway (Genelex) I discovered I was a slow acetylator - my liver was struggling to detox the drug and it became neurotoxic. My liver was working very hard; I was yellow from the ekevated bilirubin. Doctors completely missed the causal relationship.

What I find interesting, is that caffeine & sulphate drugs are also broken down via NAT2 - I react strongly to both.  I cannot tolerate sulpha drugs and now I believe I have a better understanding why.

I've been working with an integrative physician, with a background in biochemistry, to understand this cutting edge look at benzo toxicity. Although not curative, the nutritional tweaking has been helpful. I will be retesting the Genova NutrEval and Spectracell tests withing a few weeks to see if my body has made measurable corrections.

 

Marija

 

That is good to hear the nutritional tweaking has been helpful.

 

Yes it is overwhelming to say the least.

 

On what to plug the information into I think MTHFRsupport is an important stop. It doesn't tell you much about the snps as it leads to snpedia which seems mostly to have links to studies (invariably about cancer or schizophrenia  )

But it does give more snps than the others.

 

 

Peace, I loathe to suggest someone to help with this because in many ways I agree with JJ earlier. That is, I'm not keen on recommending people spend a lot of money seeing people etc. However, if it is something someone really wants to pursue than yes I think the genetic information is too complex to understand fully on one's own. There are people with expertise in this area. You can find them on MTHFR.net. Redmountainclinic does a lot of videos on the various enzymes and he still is taking patients, and can do so long distance.

So yea, it is altogether tricky but for my part I think it is part of the picture.

[[Sm...]]

On testing the drug metabolism stuff particularly, dna dose in Australia does that and it looks like genelex is the place for that.

 

more money though.. 

 

 

Butterfly, what ingredients in your supplement have you worried?

[Guest [Ma...]]

Via Genelex, health care insurance pays for the basic p-450 liver pathway tests, which include all the benzo pathways except klonopin.

 

That was helpful for me.

Marija

[[bu...]]

On testing the drug metabolism stuff particularly, dna dose in Australia does that and it looks like genelex is the place for that.

 

more money though.. 

 

 

Butterfly, what ingredients in your supplement have you worried?

Several have magnesium stearate did I see you mentioned the "ates"?

[[Sm...]]

On testing the drug metabolism stuff particularly, dna dose in Australia does that and it looks like genelex is the place for that.

 

more money though.. 

 

 

Butterfly, what ingredients in your supplement have you worried?

Several have magnesium stearate did I see you mentioned the "ates"?

 

ates doesn't mean anything really. well it does but not something we have to care about

 

we mentioned 'glycinate' but the thing that is problematic in that is the glycine

[[Se...]]

Hey Smiff and everyone else

Here is a link of a PowerPoint presentation that looks at methylation and SNPs in groups rather than specifics. Lots of good diagrams how they are all interrelated.

 

 

http://www.mthfrsupport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/23andme-snp-presentation-FULL-USA-ver.pdf

 

Very good - a bit long, but more simplified.

 

I feel beyond exasperated. I have NO glutathione and in order to detox I don't even know where to begin.

Praying for decent insight from somewhere!

I feel like the scarecrow from the wizard of Oz! Lol! ... If I only had a brain... Sorry, bad joke but truly need somebody's functioning brain to sort through all this WITHOUT benzos!

 

Praying all are doing well today!

Blessings

Selah

 

[[Sm...]]

Hey Smiff and everyone else

Here is a link of a PowerPoint presentation that looks at methylation and SNPs in groups rather than specifics. Lots of good diagrams how they are all interrelated.

 

 

http://www.mthfrsupport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/23andme-snp-presentation-FULL-USA-ver.pdf

 

Very good - a bit long, but more simplified.

 

I feel beyond exasperated. I have NO glutathione and in order to detox I don't even know where to begin.

Praying for decent insight from somewhere!

I feel like the scarecrow from the wizard of Oz! Lol! ... If I only had a brain... Sorry, bad joke but truly need somebody's functioning brain to sort through all this WITHOUT benzos!

 

Praying all are doing well today!

Blessings

Selah

 

Thanks Selah

 

Interesting and this was a particularly good analogy

 

Think of it this way

•

Think of the biochemical pathways as highways that are able to process a certain level of “traffic” to produce their stated result (detoxifying, creating glutathione, metabolizing excitatory neurotransmitters, etc.)

•

Normal expression (-/-) (green) is like an 8 lane highway.

•

Heterozygous (-/+) (yellow) islike a 4 lane highway

•

Homozygous (+/+) (red) is like a 2 lane highway

•

All is well if the traffic is light (like when you were a baby)

•

Pushing 12 lanes of traffic through an 8 or 4 lane highway will slow down processes

•

Pushing 12 lanes of traffic through a 2 lane highway may “crash” the pathway.

•Increased traffic comes from chronic infection, viral loads, food allergies, leaky gut syndrome, immune upregulation, autoimmune diseases, fungal (yeast), parasites, and any combination thereof.

 

AND THE MOTHER LOAD OF INCREASED TRAFFIC IS FREAKING BENZO WITHDRAWAL

 

 

 

I understand your frustration. Once I got my snps it was apparent to me that there was potentially a lot there that needed support to work functionally (MTHFR, GAD - glutamate conversion to GABA - and MAO/COMT with their issues breaking down adrenaline are possibly particularly problematic in benzo wd). The issue is supplementation in benzo wd is notoriously bad news. Benzo wd is notoriously shaky, changeable ground. The body is a complex organism and even worse so in benzo wd.

I don't know yet what the answer is Selah.

I suspect I'll attempt to help some of these pathways with the assitance of someone. I'm not sure what the outcome will be for withdrawal. But it is maaayybbee worth a try..

 

Tricky 

[[ro...]]

Hi, new to this..

My brain can't figure this out. I'm do mixed up. My dr , phychitrist fid the swab, sent it off..

I have one parent mutation gene..he gave me deplin, a metyhl folate supplement. I'm to take it for life he said. Bc my body lacks the enzyme to convert folate..may help my depression,

 

He just did a swab to check liver metabolism. I'm confused. I'll see him agsin next week..

 

Have any of you taken the deplin, L-methyl folate.?  I watched the videos I swa here, I read all the posts, but I'm mixed up.

 

Does supplementing help?

 

Do you think I need the 23and me test? I font know where mine was sent to...

I'm worried that something is wrong with me, I'm not sure what to do..I eat healthy, but I have severed stress at home...

I'm worried now that something's wrong with my brain..

 

The wd paranoia, intrusive thoughts....I don't know...

Ant replies please , thank you...

 

Rose

[[ro...]]

The research supports theory about insomnia too with the gene mutation.

Have any of you been helped with supplementation..?

I'm still tapering valium...

My results about my liver metabolism aren't in yet, I just called..my dr. Used..

Mellineim lab in Ca..

Oh dear,

 

Rose

[[Sm...]]

Hi, new to this..

My brain can't figure this out. I'm do mixed up. My dr , phychitrist fid the swab, sent it off..

I have one parent mutation gene..he gave me deplin, a metyhl folate supplement. I'm to take it for life he said. Bc my body lacks the enzyme to convert folate..may help my depression,

 

He just did a swab to check liver metabolism. I'm confused. I'll see him agsin next week..

 

Have any of you taken the deplin, L-methyl folate.?  I watched the videos I swa here, I read all the posts, but I'm mixed up.

 

Does supplementing help?

 

Do you think I need the 23and me test? I font know where mine was sent to...

I'm worried that something is wrong with me, I'm not sure what to do..I eat healthy, but I have severed stress at home...

I'm worried now that something's wrong with my brain..

 

The wd paranoia, intrusive thoughts....I don't know...

Ant replies please , thank you...

 

Rose

 

nothing wrong with you Rose. This is just normal human variation. The MTHFR enzyme polymorphism isn't uncommon. Having only one of it puts you with 40% of the population I think. Having two is rarer but still not overly uncommon.

The methyl folate may help with your depression. I'm not super sure how it will sit with withdrawal particularly if you dont have some other things to go with it to help it do its work and not build up with side effects.

[[ro...]]

Smiff,

Thank you for replying..

 

I'm not sure what could be used with the folate, my dr. Never mentioned that.

He's just beginning to do this testing.

 

I'm confused about so much..

 

Hugs,

Rose

[[ro...]]

Thank you Smiff

 

Rose

[[On...]]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2014/12/17/how-exercise-changes-our-dna/

 

I'm posting this here because it also speaks to methylation.

 

Thanks for starting the thread, Smiff, and everyone else for adding good information.

[[pe...]]

I have results from 23andme and have no idea what it means. I even ran them through a site that gives more specifics. Any suggestions on what to look at first and how to gather helpful info?

 

Thanks,

Peace2

[[Sm...]]

I have results from 23andme and have no idea what it means. I even ran them through a site that gives more specifics. Any suggestions on what to look at first and how to gather helpful info?

 

Thanks,

Peace2

 

Well there are a few things

 

Have you run it through the site on MTHFR? You probably want to do that.

 

Once you've done that the ones to most look for probably (given I'm not an expert in this area are)

 

CYP enzymes. They are at the top of the MTHFR read out. If you have any red or yellow ones then you are likely a slower metaboliser of drugs

 

The following are in the 'methylation' part of the MTHFR read out

 

GAD - if they are red or yellow - depending on how many - then you may have a less efficient GAD enzyme which is responsible for converting glutamate to GABA

 

CBS - if they are red or yellow - then you may have an issue with CBS enzyme which is responsible for many many things. The upshot on here though is if it isn't running efficiently you can get build up of ammonia. Little known fact: Ammonia is a BIG hitter of NMDA receptors (the ones that are implicated with glutamate excitability. Ammonia is a bit like glutamate in its excitory ways. Look up ammonia toxicity and you'll see what I mean

 

COMT and MAO - if they are red or yellow - then you have slower functioning COMT and MAO enzymes. They are responsible for clearing/converting Adrenaline, Dopamine, cortisol? (MAO is also responsible for serontonin)

 

MTHFR - MTHFR enzyme is one of the main ones that supply methyl folate to all of the enzymes listed above - and more - in the methylation cycle. They need methyl groups to do their work. Without it, it doesn't matter if they are working they won't do the job. So having red on this can mean all of the above, and more, are working less efficiently.

 

 

[[pe...]]

I have results from 23andme and have no idea what it means. I even ran them through a site that gives more specifics. Any suggestions on what to look at first and how to gather helpful info?

 

Thanks,

Peace2

 

Well there are a few things

 

Have you run it through the site on MTHFR? You probably want to do that.

 

Once you've done that the ones to most look for probably (given I'm not an expert in this area are)

 

CYP enzymes. They are at the top of the MTHFR read out. If you have any red or yellow ones then you are likely a slower metaboliser of drugs

 

The following are in the 'methylation' part of the MTHFR read out

 

GAD - if they are red or yellow - depending on how many - then you may have a less efficient GAD enzyme which is responsible for converting glutamate to GABA

 

CBS - if they are red or yellow - then you may have an issue with CBS enzyme which is responsible for many many things. The upshot on here though is if it isn't running efficiently you can get build up of ammonia. Little known fact: Ammonia is a BIG hitter of NMDA receptors (the ones that are implicated with glutamate excitability. Ammonia is a bit like glutamate in its excitory ways. Look up ammonia toxicity and you'll see what I mean

 

COMT and MAO - if they are red or yellow - then you have slower functioning COMT and MAO enzymes. They are responsible for clearing/converting Adrenaline, Dopamine, cortisol? (MAO is also responsible for serontonin)

 

MTHFR - MTHFR enzyme is one of the main ones that supply methyl folate to all of the enzymes listed above - and more - in the methylation cycle. They need methyl groups to do their work. Without it, it doesn't matter if they are working they won't do the job. So having red on this can mean all of the above, and more, are working less efficiently.

 

Thanks, Smiff.

I'm yellow for some of those and red for MTHFR. So, now what? I'll go check out yaskos site and there's a naturopath I've worked with who has gone through the yasko training. Hopefully we can piece something together. But any other suggestions are welcome.

 

Thanks,

Peace2

[[pe...]]

So,

I've been doing a tiny bit of research and I'm scared to take anything right now. Is it worth trying some of these supplements recommended for the homozygous MTHFR mutations? I don't want to muddle things further, but I certainly want to help my body out. Has anyone tried supplementing for these things during benzo recovery and seen a positive outcome? Do you think supplementing for this condition will help healing?

 

Thanks,

Peace2

[[ro...]]

Peace,

I'm taking Deplin, a b9 vitamin , folate bc I am deficient in the methyl folate that crosses the blood brain barrier..after genetic testing. I have the supplement bc I can't get the folate from food or ordinary otc vitamin. Folate or folic acid. I've taken it about 5 weeks now, I don't notice any significant changes in my depression, or sxs..it suppose to aid in depression. It comes by dr script only.

 

I am waiting for test results for the gene metabolism ....whether a fast or slow type...not sure what that will yield as for as tapering..I know the valium that I take doesn't seem effective...I'm probably a fast type...the 2 mgs ativan I reached last year didn't seem effective any more..I must process these meds guickly. I'll soon know..

 

Hope I helped a little. I'm still learning myself..

 

Rose

[[Sm...]]

Sounds good Peace

 

I'll be trying some of this stuff. I am trialing things at the moment. I'll get back to you

 

I think that means everyone on this site who has got tested did come back as homogenous MTHFR. Faskinating. I'd love everyone in bad benzo wd tested to see any patterns.