Methylation Cycle dysfunction a possible part of benzo withdrawal picture

[[Se...]]

Hi Rose-

So sorry about your family situation. Prayers to you!

 

You may want to check your multi. If it has folic acid in it - it's not good for MTHFR and methylation. The methylfolate is the kind you want and are taking in addition. Really can't give much guidance as its so individual based on genes.

 

Himalayan pink salt can be purchased anywhere. It's quite popular. Walmart I think even carries or your local grocery store or on Amazon. Way better salt than table salt for minerals etc. Not sure about the drink you are talking about.

 

Smiff,

Found this on histamine. Not scientific but I know the DAO enzyme is linked from the genetic stuff. Basically, Valium is a med that inhibits the DAO enzyme. Man how This dug is crazy. Interesting it doesn't list other benzos.

 

http://theceliacmd.com/2014/03/histamine-intolerance-causing-symptoms/

 

Blessings

Selah

 

 

[[Sm...]]

Hi Smiff how is the methylation protocol ur doing going for you? Has it impacted sleep, symptoms, etc? Hope u are well.

I am doing a phone/skype call next week with a doctor who researches  a lot on MTHFR. Hopefully he has some insights. But really nervous about what advice to take or not take. Will have to check in back here to see what you all think.

I had been doing Seeking Health b minus but realized it has a ton of niacin in it which inadvertantly may have been stopping my methylation. Not sure how to get off it. Will have to taper but I need the other Bs as my body is limited. Very frustrating. Wish there was more vitamin options out there that's for sure!

Have started developing a histamine related rash on my back the dermatologist beleives. I am guessing it's methylation related. But benzos could be too. :o/ she also said that the sometimes give benzos for this type of thing - WHAT? Crazy! And this was a new doc out of medschool. Crazy is all I can say!

Hope you are well

Blessings

Selah

 

Hey Selah

 

My methylation protocol has been going well overall. It has improved the benzo wd - mainly the anxiety and surges of weirdness - by a good 50%.

It isn't without problems. Initially sleep was probably more of an issue. At the moment I've been getting worse depression. I believe it is related to the methylation protocol. Because methylation increases elimination of many things, including neurotransmitters, there are some like Dr Bill Walsh who believes it can make depression worse (that includes methyl folate that is often used to treat depression). I'd say in my case it is because of a lack of zinc and B6. I also have pyrrole disorder which is another genetic thing that means the hemoglobin in my blood binds to and inhibits zinc, b6, biotin and GLA omega fats.

Zinc and b6 are essential for neurotransmitter production, particularly serotonin.

Normally whilst taking my methyl B12 and methyl B6 I'd be taking zinc and B6 too. Problem is I keep reacting to B6. We haven't worked out a way around this yet.

 

So yea.. it isn't without its problems but it has helped benzo wd. I am at 2.25 today. It took me less than a month to microtaper this last .5mg. Prior to that it  took at least 2 months to drop .5mg. I'm not confident it wont go arse up, or there wont be tweaking. But from my experience the principles of helping yourself with vitamins you are not getting optimally due to various genetic issues is worth pursuing.

 

Let me know how you go with your methylation dr!

 

p.s I just saw your thing on histamine. Yea histamine is a part of this for sure. It is at least partly eliminated via methylation cyle mostly through the DAO and the MAO enzyme. But I didn't know valium inhibited the DAO enzyme! Yup: these drugs are just mental! I just can't believe they exist half the time.

 

Hope you are doing ok. Let me know how you get on

[[Sm...]]

Hey Rosie

 

How is the methyl B12 helping you?

 

I agree with selah the multi may not be the right thing.

 

Take care. let me know how the B12 reacted with you  :)

[[Se...]]

Hi all

Found this diagram regarding the genetic CYP450 pathways involved in each Benzo in the liver. Gives me clues after looking at my wonky NAT2 why Klonopin was a disaster.

Not sure vali is much better for me. Thought you might enjoy...

 

https://www.pharmgkb.org/pathway/PA165111375

 

Blessings

Selah

[[Sm...]]

wow! K doesn't go through CYP enzymes?

Is your NAT2 enzyme over active or under active do you know?

 

And even ativan doesn't go through CYP enzymes? Is that right?

 

Yea you can see why people call V a 'dirty drug'. It does have a lot of metabolisation to go through. Ah well.. at least those metabolites help the withdrawal process.

 

You don't see many people on here who are ex temazepam users. I'm one of the few. Temazepam withdrawal was fine to begin with. Then it went very very awol but I had done some other weird stuff like stop DHEA. I have no idea how that relates but I'm sure it did.

[[Sm...]]

I just checked.. All the CYP enzymes that metabolise V are normal genetically

I have 3/6 heterogenous dodgy NAT2 though. I don't really know much about NAT2 and I sure as shit am never ever trying K in my life so will never know how I react

[[Se...]]

Hi Smiff

I have one homozygous NAT2. Not sure if it's up or down regulated. My CYPs are all over. I do know there are a ton of foods that are metabolized through the CYP3a4 pathway... I really should make a list sometime. Not just crucifer pus veggies. Things I found looking at Cancer websites of foods to avoid like grapefruit juice etc. I am sure what we eat affects this more than we realize. Fat definitely changes my expression of valium. Can't seem to win. Also not sure why I am one if the lucky few who metabolizes valium a duration of action faster than others - who can dose once per day. Hoping the MTHFR doc has more insight.

I do know that on the MTHFRsupport Facebook page they talk about looking at your genetic profile from a 30,000 ft view. Just because you have a particular SNP polymorphism does not mean that it is expressed or how it is expressed. And just because you don't have a polymorphism doesn't mean it isn't expressed. I guess it's a matter of looking at things collectively in groups and not one single thing like JUST the MTHFR gene as you know.

Last thing,

I don't remember where, but I do remember reading that when under "starvation" circumstances, the CYP450 enzymes upregulate or become more sensitive. So with people going through this and losing weight/stress etc, these genes seem to turn off and one morph.

All interesting things to chew on...

Selah

[Guest [Ti...]]

Hi Smiff

I have one homozygous NAT2. Not sure if it's up or down regulated. My CYPs are all over. I do know there are a ton of foods that are metabolized through the CYP3a4 pathway... I really should make a list sometime. Not just crucifer pus veggies. Things I found looking at Cancer websites of foods to avoid like grapefruit juice etc. I am sure what we eat affects this more than we realize. Fat definitely changes my expression of valium. Can't seem to win. Also not sure why I am one if the lucky few who metabolizes valium a duration of action faster than others - who can dose once per day. Hoping the MTHFR doc has more insight.

I do know that on the MTHFRsupport Facebook page they talk about looking at your genetic profile from a 30,000 ft view. Just because you have a particular SNP polymorphism does not mean that it is expressed or how it is expressed. And just because you don't have a polymorphism doesn't mean it isn't expressed. I guess it's a matter of looking at things collectively in groups and not one single thing like JUST the MTHFR gene as you know.

Last thing,

I don't remember where, but I do remember reading that when under "starvation" circumstances, the CYP450 enzymes upregulate or become more sensitive. So with people going through this and losing weight/stress etc, these genes seem to turn off and one morph.

All interesting things to chew on...

Selah

 

Would you clarify this for me Selah? I want to make sure I am understanding. The CYP450 enzymes upregulate with weight loss? Does that mean that they would metabolize the drugs better or worse? I dropped 40lbs my first two months on benzos...yep 40.

[[pe...]]

I've got a list of supps from a functional medicine doc based on my genetic results. I'm scared of all of it. My understanding is you have to get things in balance, not just take b12 but take the right b12 and the other b vitamins too. So, has anyone found a multi without folic acid and b12, since those are supplented separarely to get the correct ones? Or are you just supplementing a few nutrients and not the others?

 

Thanks

Peace2

[[Se...]]

Hi TFA -

Found a few different references to certain CYP450 enzymes being unregulated during "starvation" or infection. Really not sure how this works and haven't looked into it much. Up regulating means they are more sensitive. For me foods in particular I think. But could be completely wrong. Not sure because so many thins are affected by these drugs ultimately. I had just curiously looked a long time ago as to why everything seemed to interact for me. No on the valium things are even more different in my body than the Klonopin. Really frustrating. No real answers for you. Hers the few things I found. And I know the Internet is hit and miss on many things and there are plenty of articles supporting many different sides to questions we don't have answers for.

 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=abZnBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA313&lpg=PA313&dq=cyp450+upregulation+starvation&source=bl&ots=F24rtl_9G1&sig=_cg_cvfuVKBKWfl9rKVfW4mOQQU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UjQdVeu_HoPCggT02YG4Ag&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAw

 

This is from Wikipedia...(not a great source, but simple, and there are others out there)

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP3A4

 

Note that this is a Protective mode for the body - not sure how.

 

"CYP3A4 activity levels have also been linked to diet and environmental factors, such as duration of exposure to xenobiotic substances.[25] Due to the enzyme’s extensive presence in the intestinal mucosa, the enzyme has shown sensitivity to starvation symptoms and is upregulated in defense of adverse effects. Indeed, in fatheaded minnows, unfed female fish were shown to have increased PXR and CYP3A4 expression, and displayed a more pronounced response to xenobiotic factors after exposure after several days of starvation.[25] By studying animal models and keeping in mind the innate differences in CYP3A4 activation, investigators can better predict drug metabolism and side effects in human CYP3A4 pathways."

 

Just not sure TFA. Wouldn't stress too much as nothing you can really do about it.

 

Peace -

Seeking Health by Dr Ben Lynch has a long list of things you can check out. I'm meeting with my functional doc tomorrow so will see if any better info for you. I am a bit stuck in this front too I think the vitamins I have been taking have not necessarily been the right ones. So hoping for more info.

 

Blessings,

Selah

[[Sm...]]

I've got a list of supps from a functional medicine doc based on my genetic results. I'm scared of all of it. My understanding is you have to get things in balance, not just take b12 but take the right b12 and the other b vitamins too. So, has anyone found a multi without folic acid and b12, since those are supplented separarely to get the correct ones? Or are you just supplementing a few nutrients and not the others?

 

Thanks

Peace2

 

Hey Peace

 

I have heard similar things - keeping things in balance. However I have also heard of many people mainly supplementing with methyl folate and methyl b12 (MTHFR people usually in those instances).

 

I don't like riboflavin B2 so I don't take it.

I got a lot out of methyl folate and methyl b12 so I take that.

Niacin I occassionally have a nibble

B6 I had problems with for ages but I pursued because it is so important to neurotransmitters

Biotin B7 I'm supposed to try soon to see if it helps with my B6 sketchiness

B1 I was interested in because it is part of what produces GABA but I haven't gone down that path yet.

 

I think the most important thing is to try all things individually first so you know how you react to certain things. I'm in benzo wd so presumably me and B6 should be great. Not only does it make the GAD enzyme do its work of converting glutamate to GABA but it is also a building block for serotonin. B6 and I however aren't friends.. yet.

 

If I'd just jumped straight into a multi or even a 'methylation multi' I would have felt horrible and not known it was the b6.

 

So in my view knowing how you react to certain vitamins trumps aiming for being 'in balance'.

 

Once you know how you react and you are at the stage for a multi there is probably only one I'd suggest. That is the thorne multi. The seeking health multis use bi-glycinate to chelate their metals. Glycine hits NMDA receptors. I've experienced it first hand. It isn't fun. Thorne uses picolinate to chelate its metals.

 

Both use methyl folate and methyl b12

 

But... I'd suggest a multi is too much for you at this stage without knowing your reaction to things.

 

I literally spent two months trying every vitamin for my protocol seperately and recording on a symptoms chart my reaction. I found out weird things like I always felt worse the first day I took a vitamin but it would progressively get better (except in the case of b6 and to a lesser extent b2).

 

As someone with MTHFR and a very compromised system I'd say your first stop has to be methyl b12 (unless you have the COMT that doesn't handle it in which case hydroxy b12). You continue that for a few weeks and then try to add in methyl folate starting slow and titrating up. At some point soon you try to add zinc probably to support your neurotransmitters particularly as your improved methylation will be moving them along quicker (good in the case of adrenaline less good in the case of serotonin).

 

After that you wait and see and if need be work with someone on complicating it further.

 

Oh wait you probably also want to support gluthathione. Liposomal gluthathione and/or NAC

 

and if you get a non sugar electrolyte like nun that could help give enough magnesium and potassium to make a bad reaction to methyl folate less likely (as per Ben Lynch's protocol on starting methyl folate to avoid side effects)

 

But it is a slow process, where you start at low doses at build up. It is an individual process, in which I think you want to know how each thing reacts to you.

 

aaannnd i've just given heaps more advice than I really feel comfortable with. I'm not a dr or trained in this. These are opinions only and ultimately the most important thing is the individuality of the process so I dunno if a blanket protocol can be invented.

 

aaannnndd on the topic of the indivduality there are complicating snp polymorphisms. Amy Yasko thinks you have to treat CBS snps before MTHFR (yucca for ammonia). Ben Lynch thinks you have to treat SUOX snps before MTHFR (molybdenum for sulfates). Others have said COMT need to be treated first. so yea.. I know nothing.. except try stuff first individually 

 

What has the functional medicine person suggested?

 

p.s tell the functional medicine person about benzo wd people and glycine/glycinate/biglycinate. I'm not the only one who has had horrible waves from that. (still in the principle I've just spoken about you can always try a biglycinate chelated mineral like magnesium biglycinate and see how you react)

[[Sm...]]

I see you actually asked for a b multi without methyl folate and methyl b12.

Seeking health does have this. It is called B minus. And the warnings about glycinate doesn't apply to that because there are no minerals and metals in it. It is just Bs without folate and b12.

But... again reactions to any of the bs could be a possibility, like me with b2 and b6. You wouldn't know what was what if you took them all at once.

 

its tricky. Taking a billion supplements of each individual one that you know is fine is annoying and costly too. It isn't the worst thing in the world though and wouldn't last forever. As we get better presumably we will be able to handle more things.

 

dunno....

[[Sm...]]

just before going to bed I'll post these two articles, partly because Peace you referred to using folic acid (the second one will explain why you don't wanna do that) and using the right b12 (the first one will explain why there is a right b12)

The 'right' ones are usually just closer to the end form most of your body/cells use.

 

 

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/99-vitamin-b12-market-contains-cyanide

 

http://www.tahomaclinicblog.com/folic-acid/

 

[[pe...]]

Hi Smiff,

Thanks for all that. I will sift through it again but I get the drift - one thing at a time.

My brain is not computing most of this. I am just trying to follow my gut which says go slowly and get help along the way.

 

The functional medicine doc said no methyls for me. Do you know what that's about?

 

I'm to alternate hydroxy b12 and adenosyl b12 every other day. I'm to take folinic acid. I've started that. And she recommended magnesium citrate which I already take.

 

She also recommended I take resveratrol, pomegranate extract, Optimal PC by Seeking Health (blended phospholipids), Optimal Start multi from Seeking Health (which has ginseng ?! in it), and lipsomal vitamin c.

 

I'm open to trying most of these things because they're all individual supplements. I'm most hesitant about that multi because of the ginseng. Why would you put ginseng in a multi for sensitive people?!?!

 

Those are the supplements recommended and she also recommend breathing and walking. She also wants me to take the organic acids test which I'm considering but mostly I see this as a big old benzo nightmare and trying to fiddle with this other stuff seems like another shot in the dark for now. I'm just trying to add in things that might help and won't be harmful, but of course that's easier said than done.

 

Thanks for your help. You seem to have your brain around all this.

Peace2

 

 

 

[[Se...]]

Hi Smiff

Just a couple things. LOTS of info from Dr. Derrick Lonsdale on B1 for neuropathy, nerves, carbohydrate metabolism etc. He was a doc at the Ckeveland Clinic and then got fed up and became a function med do and researcher. Retired now. But Thiamine deficiency linked to lots of stuff.

 

 

 

Final note,

I may have made a mistake with the B minus from seeking health. It has a LOT of niacin in it. Which can be problematic for those trying to figure out MtHFR stuff. So am checking with new doc tomorrow.

I also think my system is now "addicted to the supplements" and will have to wean off the B minus.

Just frustrating because my body is NZoT getting what it needs. Have not Ben fully mobile in 2 years since hospital stay and then benzos. Yuck.

 

Do you think that the supplements while tapering mask the Benzo withdrawal? And why do people have trouble when they stop supplements? That is my BIG question and fear.

I know what Aicwould be doing when off this stuff. But on it still and slow going.

 

Selah

[[Sm...]]

Hi Smiff,

Thanks for all that. I will sift through it again but I get the drift - one thing at a time.

My brain is not computing most of this. I am just trying to follow my gut which says go slowly and get help along the way.

 

The functional medicine doc said no methyls for me. Do you know what that's about?

 

I'm to alternate hydroxy b12 and adenosyl b12 every other day. I'm to take folinic acid. I've started that. And she recommended magnesium citrate which I already take.

 

She also recommended I take resveratrol, pomegranate extract, Optimal PC by Seeking Health (blended phospholipids), Optimal Start multi from Seeking Health (which has ginseng ?! in it), and lipsomal vitamin c.

 

I'm open to trying most of these things because they're all individual supplements. I'm most hesitant about that multi because of the ginseng. Why would you put ginseng in a multi for sensitive people?!?!

 

Those are the supplements recommended and she also recommend breathing and walking. She also wants me to take the organic acids test which I'm considering but mostly I see this as a big old benzo nightmare and trying to fiddle with this other stuff seems like another shot in the dark for now. I'm just trying to add in things that might help and won't be harmful, but of course that's easier said than done.

 

Thanks for your help. You seem to have your brain around all this.

Peace2

 

ok, well did you want me to add my thoughts to the mix on those things? or not? I don't have strong views except I agree with you that the seeking health combo of ginseng and biglycinate forms of minerals would put it in the too questionable basket for me for someone in benzo wd. I'm also not a fan of mag citrate, but that is just from personal experience. The only mag I've tolerated is mag threonate.

 

on the methyl groups though.. some people can react to the methyl groups. I know some COMT snps do. Do you have COMT snps, and if so which ones?

 

That could be why folinic and hydroxy.

 

I'm not sure she is right on the cycling hydroxy one day and adenosal the next though. For benzo wd systems everything is tilting and flipping out, waving and windowing as it is. I would have thought half dose of each every day would be better.

 

How did you react to folinic acid?

[[Sm...]]

Hi Smiff

Just a couple things. LOTS of info from Dr. Derrick Lonsdale on B1 for neuropathy, nerves, carbohydrate metabolism etc. He was a doc at the Ckeveland Clinic and then got fed up and became a function med do and researcher. Retired now. But Thiamine deficiency linked to lots of stuff.

 

 

 

Final note,

I may have made a mistake with the B minus from seeking health. It has a LOT of niacin in it. Which can be problematic for those trying to figure out MtHFR stuff. So am checking with new doc tomorrow.

I also think my system is now "addicted to the supplements" and will have to wean off the B minus.

Just frustrating because my body is NZoT getting what it needs. Have not Ben fully mobile in 2 years since hospital stay and then benzos. Yuck.

 

Do you think that the supplements while tapering mask the Benzo withdrawal? And why do people have trouble when they stop supplements? That is my BIG question and fear.

I know what Aicwould be doing when off this stuff. But on it still and slow going.

 

Selah

 

Ok thanks Selah I'll look into B1

 

Not everyone has trouble when the stop supplements. A lotta people in benzo wd feel better after supps which is why they are wary of supps and/or cause some supps are toxic shizen.

 

Why do you have problems stopping supps? I'm not sure really. What are your symptoms when you try to stop them? Which ones do you have problems stopping?

Personally I would have trouble stopping my methyl folate and methyl B12. I don't think that is cause I'm addicted to it per se. Or that it is masking benzo wd. I suspect it is mainly because those methyl groups, b12 and folate are helping my body process the chemical shit storm of benzo wd - glutamate and adrenaline mainly - so if I stopped it I'd go back to not eliminating those things well and I'd feel like shit.

Magnesium does something to GABA so that can be I guess 'addictive' in the benzo wd sense since it is related to GABA system.

What did you think was going on?

[[pe...]]

Hi Smiff,

This doc is good with the MTHFR and genetic pieces but the benzo business is not her expertise. It's hard to find someone who gets it all. So, yes please weigh in.

I have

COMT V158M rs4680 +-

COMT H62H rs4633 +-

COMT  rs6269 +-

 

I've just been taking the folinic acid for a few days and a very low dose.

I'm not noticing a big difference. I have not flipped out - that's my criteria for sticking with something.

 

I've been taking the b12 hydroxy for a bit with no bad side effects. I'm just starting the adenosal and I'm not sure about it yet. I'm not real sure why I need both instead of just the hydroxy. Thoughts on that?

 

Thanks,

Peace

[[Sm...]]

Hi Smiff,

This doc is good with the MTHFR and genetic pieces but the benzo business is not her expertise. It's hard to find someone who gets it all. So, yes please weigh in.

I have

COMT V158M rs4680 +-

COMT H62H rs4633 +-

COMT  rs6269 +-

 

I've just been taking the folinic acid for a few days and a very low dose.

I'm not noticing a big difference. I have not flipped out - that's my criteria for sticking with something.

 

I've been taking the b12 hydroxy for a bit with no bad side effects. I'm just starting the adenosal and I'm not sure about it yet. I'm not real sure why I need both instead of just the hydroxy. Thoughts on that?

 

Thanks,

Peace

 

mm so that is a few COMT snps. Do you have VDR too?

The COMT V158M is associated with not tolerating methyl groups so well

Problem as I see it though is COMT uses methyl donors as a cofactor to eliminate dopamine and adrenaline. With those COMT snps you already have reduced elimination dopamine and adrenaline. So you'd think methyl donors would help to finally get rid of that crap. But apparently not.. they claim the methyl groups will lead to more, and excess, dopamine. I don't really understand the theory there.

 

If you do ever want to see about trying methyl b12 let me know how it goes? I'm very curious.

 

I don't know why both the adenosyl and hydroxy. There will be some reason for it but I don't know enough. It is good you are coping fine with the folinic and hydroxy. Haven't noticed anything?

[[pe...]]

Smiff,

I'm slowly and cautiously tapering up both the folinic acid and b12. Really haven't noticed much of a difference. Maybe I'm not taking enough. I'm horribly afraid of my benzo symptoms getting worse. I'm feeling more depressed today and ofcourse want to blame the supplements rather than the usual suspects of benzo withdrawal and hormones. I'm in my 15th month post taper and still having rough symptoms. Hoping some of these supplements might help. Not sure it's the right approach for me yet.

 

Peace2

[[Se...]]

Smiff (lol - your name came out as "Ms off" when my phone first corrected it! -

Sorry my phone typing is not spellchecked as u can see from my previous post 

Regarding the supplements - I remember reading somewhere something you were taking - pipeline I think? Found in pepper? Made you crash when stopping or that it was unintentionally updosing you?

I know all supplements are processed through the liver. So if things get jammed up,  be it from methylation /detox isdues or not, there is potential that any supplement could "updose" someone or do the opposite depending upon how the CYP enzymes are affected. Supplements have interactions with drugs. Obviously while on the drug itself. Where I am at. Once off the drug I think it's a different ballgame.

Then you have to add in the fact that the supplement being taken has its own affects biologically in spite of the liver metabolism. So that's what I don't know.

Magnesium keeps my brain clear - very little anxiety (also my progesterone high righ before menses helps too). But stopping it before meant the wrath of he** broke loose.

My RBC magnesium level is 3.8 on a scale of 4 to 6.5 that is not good. So I know I can't Not take it. Same with my B1 - LOW - borderline beri-beri. I know this now from researching and from my diabetes probably have always been low. Probably even need more of it.

Just can't fit it all into the mix. Having to dose V 3 times per day makes taking sups and eating a bit of a nighare.

Tried stopping the Bs too get bloodwork done to find out my true levels -as you have to be off them for 48 hours... Anxiety, moody, drama through the roof. Unable to speak etc etc. I am not inclined to do that again real quick! I just know there are certain Bs my body needs to survive so am sticking with it.

The mag malate gives me energy relaxes muscles and makes me tired. Weird. But I obviously need more if my levels are low ci know they block NMDA so stopping the block means opening up glutamate garbage.

Lots of pieces too little answers. Will hopefully know more tomorrow.

Smiff - here's a link to thiamin deficiency and POTS and how things like stress nutrition and alcohol deplete B1. I would consider that benzos in their similarity to benzos may probably cause this deficiency too.

 

http://www.hormonesmatter.com/post-gardasil-pots-thiamine-deficiency/

You

 

Ok this one has good info and a good diagram. Some references my not be "Benzo friendly" but it starts to explain the relationship between thiamin and neurological dependence and the magnesium cofactors which is necessary. He has a few NIH research article but the are way to lengthy to post. We need thiamine. Is the basic thing. Don't ignore it especially if its low!

 

http://knowledgeofhealth.com/vitamins-in-absentia/

 

 

 

Peace -

I hear you on the doctor thing cause in MTHFR but not in benzos. Linked but different.

The adeno and hydroxy are different in terms of how they are used in the body. One is a precursor to the other I beleive. Depending on how your body is able to use them with other genetic factors.

My data showed (from Amy Yaskos site) that Zi should be using adeno /hydroxy either or. I am using adeno under my upper lip to absorb. Only 1/4 of the tablet. And I worked my way up from there. Going to ask the MTHFR doc about the hydroxy tomorrow ci think they both have benefits for different reasons for different people. MethylB12 was not good for me -anxiety producing.

Selah

[[Se...]]

Just info...

 

Ok here is a list of methylfolate from different companies from the MTHFR.net website. Did not realize how many different ones!

http://mthfr.net/forums/topic/methyl-b12-vs-hydroxy-b12-vs-adenosyl-b12-with-mthfr-mtrr-cbs-

Also it says

"Meurobiologix also carries a skin cream that contains methyl-folate and several cofactors. (Methyl-folate is a fat soluble vitamin form that will pass through the skin.) Especially if you are having trouble absorbing your fats, you may want to use the skin cream instead of, or with the pills."

 

Had NO clue there was a cream. Interesting!

[[Sm...]]

Smiff,

I'm slowly and cautiously tapering up both the folinic acid and b12. Really haven't noticed much of a difference. Maybe I'm not taking enough. I'm horribly afraid of my benzo symptoms getting worse. I'm feeling more depressed today and ofcourse want to blame the supplements rather than the usual suspects of benzo withdrawal and hormones. I'm in my 15th month post taper and still having rough symptoms. Hoping some of these supplements might help. Not sure it's the right approach for me yet.

 

Peace2

 

If you are feeling depressed I suggest zinc picolinate. Thorne brand probably and taper it up. Those methylation supps maayy mean elimination of neurotransmitters quicker, which is a good thing in the case of adrenaline and less good in the case of serotonin. So zinc might be an option for neurotransmitter support. And B6 and P5P would be helpful too on the serotonin and GABA production front. It doesn't work great for me yet but it is theoretically pretty darn useful.

 

See how you go... 

[[Sm...]]

Smiff (lol - your name came out as "Ms off" when my phone first corrected it! -

Sorry my phone typing is not spellchecked as u can see from my previous post 

Regarding the supplements - I remember reading somewhere something you were taking - pipeline I think? Found in pepper? Made you crash when stopping or that it was unintentionally updosing you?

I know all supplements are processed through the liver. So if things get jammed up,  be it from methylation /detox isdues or not, there is potential that any supplement could "updose" someone or do the opposite depending upon how the CYP enzymes are affected. Supplements have interactions with drugs. Obviously while on the drug itself. Where I am at. Once off the drug I think it's a different ballgame.

Then you have to add in the fact that the supplement being taken has its own affects biologically in spite of the liver metabolism. So that's what I don't know.

Magnesium keeps my brain clear - very little anxiety (also my progesterone high righ before menses helps too). But stopping it before meant the wrath of he** broke loose.

My RBC magnesium level is 3.8 on a scale of 4 to 6.5 that is not good. So I know I can't Not take it. Same with my B1 - LOW - borderline beri-beri. I know this now from researching and from my diabetes probably have always been low. Probably even need more of it.

Just can't fit it all into the mix. Having to dose V 3 times per day makes taking sups and eating a bit of a nighare.

Tried stopping the Bs too get bloodwork done to find out my true levels -as you have to be off them for 48 hours... Anxiety, moody, drama through the roof. Unable to speak etc etc. I am not inclined to do that again real quick! I just know there are certain Bs my body needs to survive so am sticking with it.

The mag malate gives me energy relaxes muscles and makes me tired. Weird. But I obviously need more if my levels are low ci know they block NMDA so stopping the block means opening up glutamate garbage.

Lots of pieces too little answers. Will hopefully know more tomorrow.

Smiff - here's a link to thiamin deficiency and POTS and how things like stress nutrition and alcohol deplete B1. I would consider that benzos in their similarity to benzos may probably cause this deficiency too.

 

http://www.hormonesmatter.com/post-gardasil-pots-thiamine-deficiency/

You

 

Ok this one has good info and a good diagram. Some references my not be "Benzo friendly" but it starts to explain the relationship between thiamin and neurological dependence and the magnesium cofactors which is necessary. He has a few NIH research article but the are way to lengthy to post. We need thiamine. Is the basic thing. Don't ignore it especially if its low!

 

http://knowledgeofhealth.com/vitamins-in-absentia/

 

 

 

Peace -

I hear you on the doctor thing cause in MTHFR but not in benzos. Linked but different.

The adeno and hydroxy are different in terms of how they are used in the body. One is a precursor to the other I beleive. Depending on how your body is able to use them with other genetic factors.

My data showed (from Amy Yaskos site) that Zi should be using adeno /hydroxy either or. I am using adeno under my upper lip to absorb. Only 1/4 of the tablet. And I worked my way up from there. Going to ask the MTHFR doc about the hydroxy tomorrow ci think they both have benefits for different reasons for different people. MethylB12 was not good for me -anxiety producing.

Selah

 

oh ok.

Yea piperine was an unintentional updose. It blocks CYP enzymes which is why it is used in conjunction with stuff like curcumin they wanna get around the CYP enzymes. That is fine if you aren't on a benzo 

 

But yea.. that is one supp. Grapefruit would do the same thing. I'm not sure how methyl folate and methyl B12 would reduce clearance of v. If anything, it might increase clearance of it.

 

As for the other stuff.. yes as we've noted Mag has a relationship to GABA/glutamate/NMDA receptors/neuronal firing potential so that could get addictive in the context of benzo wd.

 

Sadly I don't have much insight into your terrible reaction to the B vitamin loss of one day. It can't be explained in an obvious way like withdrawal from/addiction to as is the case with piperine or magnesium. Is niacin perhaps useful for your benzo wd because you are an over-methylator? There is of course that guy who got off 4mg k in 2 weeks with super high dose niacinimide (niacin). Being an over-methylator in some important areas might explain why you metabolise your V so fast? Your B1 status might explain the terrible mood swings without B1 too. Maybe the drop off of B1 and/or B6 could create a situation that is kinda like dependence in benzo wd cause they are related to GABA production.

 

Normally I guess I'd say 'don't worry about it; the Bs shouldn't be addictive per se so they must be doing something to help benzo wd and it should be fine to get off post benzo wd'. But you are saying you are unhappy with a few other things like dosing multiple times a day etc and you are worried they are related. Sadly the limit of my knowledge is well and truly reached at this stage though so I can't really offer much advise. Sorry 

 

[Guest [Ti...]]

Smiff (lol - your name came out as "Ms off" when my phone first corrected it! -

Sorry my phone typing is not spellchecked as u can see from my previous post 

Regarding the supplements - I remember reading somewhere something you were taking - pipeline I think? Found in pepper? Made you crash when stopping or that it was unintentionally updosing you?

I know all supplements are processed through the liver. So if things get jammed up,  be it from methylation /detox isdues or not, there is potential that any supplement could "updose" someone or do the opposite depending upon how the CYP enzymes are affected. Supplements have interactions with drugs. Obviously while on the drug itself. Where I am at. Once off the drug I think it's a different ballgame.

Then you have to add in the fact that the supplement being taken has its own affects biologically in spite of the liver metabolism. So that's what I don't know.

Magnesium keeps my brain clear - very little anxiety (also my progesterone high righ before menses helps too). But stopping it before meant the wrath of he** broke loose.

My RBC magnesium level is 3.8 on a scale of 4 to 6.5 that is not good. So I know I can't Not take it. Same with my B1 - LOW - borderline beri-beri. I know this now from researching and from my diabetes probably have always been low. Probably even need more of it.

Just can't fit it all into the mix. Having to dose V 3 times per day makes taking sups and eating a bit of a nighare.

Tried stopping the Bs too get bloodwork done to find out my true levels -as you have to be off them for 48 hours... Anxiety, moody, drama through the roof. Unable to speak etc etc. I am not inclined to do that again real quick! I just know there are certain Bs my body needs to survive so am sticking with it.

The mag malate gives me energy relaxes muscles and makes me tired. Weird. But I obviously need more if my levels are low ci know they block NMDA so stopping the block means opening up glutamate garbage.

Lots of pieces too little answers. Will hopefully know more tomorrow.

Smiff - here's a link to thiamin deficiency and POTS and how things like stress nutrition and alcohol deplete B1. I would consider that benzos in their similarity to benzos may probably cause this deficiency too.

 

http://www.hormonesmatter.com/post-gardasil-pots-thiamine-deficiency/

You

 

Ok this one has good info and a good diagram. Some references my not be "Benzo friendly" but it starts to explain the relationship between thiamin and neurological dependence and the magnesium cofactors which is necessary. He has a few NIH research article but the are way to lengthy to post. We need thiamine. Is the basic thing. Don't ignore it especially if its low!

 

http://knowledgeofhealth.com/vitamins-in-absentia/

 

 

 

Peace -

I hear you on the doctor thing cause in MTHFR but not in benzos. Linked but different.

The adeno and hydroxy are different in terms of how they are used in the body. One is a precursor to the other I beleive. Depending on how your body is able to use them with other genetic factors.

My data showed (from Amy Yaskos site) that Zi should be using adeno /hydroxy either or. I am using adeno under my upper lip to absorb. Only 1/4 of the tablet. And I worked my way up from there. Going to ask the MTHFR doc about the hydroxy tomorrow ci think they both have benefits for different reasons for different people. MethylB12 was not good for me -anxiety producing.

Selah

 

oh ok.

Yea piperine was an unintentional updose. It blocks CYP enzymes which is why it is used in conjunction with stuff like curcumin they wanna get around the CYP enzymes. That is fine if you aren't on a benzo 

 

But yea.. that is one supp. Grapefruit would do the same thing. I'm not sure how methyl folate and methyl B12 would reduce clearance of v. If anything, it might increase clearance of it.

 

As for the other stuff.. yes as we've noted Mag has a relationship to GABA/glutamate/NMDA receptors/neuronal firing potential so that could get addictive in the context of benzo wd.

 

Sadly I don't have much insight into your terrible reaction to the B vitamin loss of one day. It can't be explained in an obvious way like withdrawal from/addiction to as is the case with piperine or magnesium. Is niacin perhaps useful for your benzo wd because you are an over-methylator? There is of course that guy who got off 4mg k in 2 weeks with super high dose niacinimide (niacin). Being an over-methylator in some important areas might explain why you metabolise your V so fast? Your B1 status might explain the terrible mood swings without B1 too. Maybe the drop off of B1 and/or B6 could create a situation that is kinda like dependence in benzo wd cause they are related to GABA production.

 

Normally I guess I'd say 'don't worry about it; the Bs shouldn't be addictive per se so they must be doing something to help benzo wd and it should be fine to get off post benzo wd'. But you are saying you are unhappy with a few other things like dosing multiple times a day etc and you are worried they are related. Sadly the limit of my knowledge is well and truly reached at this stage though so I can't really offer much advise. Sorry 

 

If someone is processing valium way too fast wouldn't eating grapefruit be a good idea? Also isn't the curcumin safe to take while on valium as long as it's not the kind with piperine and you take it with ground pepper instead?