Methylation Cycle dysfunction a possible part of benzo withdrawal picture

[[Sm...]]

Smiff-

I dropped the multi and felt better than on it. It might be a coincidence but I just don't seem to tolerate much of anything and don't have the energy to go through the trial and error ride. I'm not taking anything for methylation at this point. I just don't feel like I can tolerate it all. I was ok on just hydroxy b12 but was told taking that alone would throw other things off. So, I've got a cupboard of supplements I'm not taking. Frustrating for sure!

 

Wish I could find a sure thing. Still have not.

 

Peace

 

Fairy enough. Benzo body is super sensitive. Good luck with it Peace. Let us know if you return to any of it

[[Sm...]]

yes westcoast the cascade of chronic crappiness is the kicker

[[Sm...]]

This was an interesting-ish article

 

Genes, Methylation and your health

http://suzycohen.com/articles/snpsmethylation/comment-page-1/#comment-5569

[[Sm...]]

Update on me

 

I'm below 2 now. I really am impressed at the rate I've been able to pick up my taper since treating my methylation

 

On what I'm doing with that..

 

I got tired of taking a billion tablets a day. Plus the doses of zinc and B6 were leaving me with mood swings from the boost to neurotransmitters. Anyway I had the thorne pregnancy multi - the one with picolinate forms - so I thought I'd try it. It worked well. I'm now taking 1 thorne pregnancy multi. Their dose is 3 capsules for pregnancy levels of these vitamins. On top of that I take extra methyl b12 and methylfolate

 

It is going well.. always a win in benzo wd and if goes arse up I'm close enough to cut hard and be off.

 

Be well

[[ro...]]

Smiff, where's a good place to buy methyl b12.?

On line z.

I'm just ttying anything.

Very depressed.

[[Se...]]

Hey Smiff. That's GRET to hear!

So glad u are finding success!

 

Couple of questions...

What did your 23andme say with regards to B12? Yasko suggests the different types. I am supposed to take adenosyl or hydroxy based on COMT and VDR things. And also do you take it sublingually?

 

The methylfolate - how did you find what amount worked? Was your doctor helpful or just trial and error?

 

Last thing - your Valium - (I  having to dose 3 times a day and probably should be doing it more based on duration of action in my body. Have you been able to just stick with one dose per day?

 

Thanks. Keep up the good work!

Let us know what else you find out!

Blessings

Selah

[[Sm...]]

Hey Smiff. That's GRET to hear!

So glad u are finding success!

 

Couple of questions...

What did your 23andme say with regards to B12? Yasko suggests the different types. I am supposed to take adenosyl or hydroxy based on COMT and VDR things. And also do you take it sublingually?

 

The methylfolate - how did you find what amount worked? Was your doctor helpful or just trial and error?

 

Last thing - your Valium - (I  having to dose 3 times a day and probably should be doing it more based on duration of action in my body. Have you been able to just stick with one dose per day?

 

Thanks. Keep up the good work!

Let us know what else you find out!

Blessings

Selah

 

Hey Selah 

 

I don't have VDR and only have 1 heterozygous COMT so I'm alright for methyl B12. I still sometimes get too many neurotransmitters action but I am homozygous MAO, so it is a balancing act.

 

What VDR and COMT do you have?

 

on the methylfolate.. my guy usually suggested a higher dose than I was happy with. He wasn't used to working with hyper sensitive benzo peeps. I did it based on trial and error. I tried small amounts initially. Then added more. It worked. I still can't really handle more than 1mg for more than a day. The buzz gets too much. I guess that is MAO.

 

Yup still only taking valium once a day.

 

What are you taking to get around VDR and COMT? Bminus? folinic acid and hydroxo b12?

[[Sm...]]

Even though there aint a ton of interest in this I think it is important so I'll keep recording how I'm going...

I say this with a cautionary advisory though. This is what has worked for me but it took some trial and error, and testing. Some of this stuff I know I need because I don't have the capacity to do the work for methyl folate for instance. But that is my personal genetic situation. The other area where this gets tricky is when people assume methyl folate is the same as folic acid, or magnesium oxide is as good as magnesium threonate. Each of these are very particular forms of vitamins. Some are the same, or closer to, the ones we use in our bodies - like methyl folate. Some, like minerals and metals can't be absorbed unless they are a compound. What makes up the compound - glycinate/glycine; threonate; citrate - etc makes them very different substances...

 

where I am at

 

I'm still doing a good 50% better than I was targeted pre-vitamins on both symptoms and speed of taper I can handle.

 

I am taking a fair amount of vitamins and a few other supps though. My current list is:

 

Thorne prenatal multi vitamin (I take 2 - one in morning and one at midday - but the recommended is 3. I wouldn't be able to take 3 due to the amount of iron but I had to go the prenatal since it is the only multi vitamin that has methyl folate and B12 without biglycinate forms of minerals [biglycinate gives me rapid freaky waves])

 

Methyl folate: An additional - over what I already get in the Thorne multi which is about 500mcg - 800 mcg of methyl folate (400mcg twice daily). I had to work myself up to this much methyl folate. Initially I could only handle 400mcg daily. Now I guess I'm around 1.2mg.

 

Methyl B12: An additional - over what I get in the Thorne multi which isn't much - 1.5mg of methyl B12. Again I worked my way up to this much. It is weird how sensitive I was initially and now I can take a whole 1mg of methyl b12 with barely noticing.

 

Magnesium: I get some magnesium in the Thorne but I also take 2 caps of Mag threonate. I had to come to Mag threonate because the crappier forms of mag hurt my gut and had me having other funky skin tingly/wavey feelings. The only other quality form of mag - mag glycinate - gave me most definite rapid wave cycling. Mag threonate is weird stuff cause I'm not sure how much of it is magnesium. I don't react badly to it though and that is enough for me. I know magnesium is a cofactor for COMT - which I think is vital to this BS - and many more enzymes so I stuff it in as long as it isn't doing something negative.

 

Fish oil with extra DHA

 

Yucca to absorb some ammonia. This did help initially a great deal, particularly with my reaction to protein rich meals.

 

Liposomal gluthathione: This stuff is the goodness. If I could have gluthathione on a drip I reckon I could kick valium in weeks  . I'm pretty convinced here is something to gluthathione all this.

 

NAC: I sometimes take this as it helps gluthathione production. It is supposed to reduce glutamate too. They've done a bunch of trials on cocaine addicts and glutamate in the brain of humans does lower with NAC. Initially I did really well on it. Now I can only stay on it for 3 days or so and then need a break. The only one of the things I take that I'd be the most cautious about someone else using. I tried it once in the past but it was a crappy brand and the result wasn't good. Now the result is either good or not great, and that is with a really quality NAC.

 

Zinc: I try to shove some extra zinc in because I have pyrroles, which means I am always losing tons of zinc, and zinc is important for neurotransmitters and keeping copper down (copper speeds/sets up the dopamine to adrenaline change and I don't want extra adrenaline). I don't do to well with a lot of zinc though. I think/suspect maybe/kinda that it is an excess neurotransmitter thing with me and zinc. I get a serious buzz on and my brain gets a bit over the top if I take too much. I do have the slow MAO so my clearance of neurotransmitters is kinda crappy. Still, I try to push a bit in extra based on the theory (which I'm not sure I agree with doing  )

 

That is it my friends. It is a lot more then I thought I'd be taking. But I've gone with what has worked for me and this is where it led me. Now to finish with this *expletive* drugs.

 

Hey Selah.. I was told by my nutritionist that niacin is a cofactor for COMT. COMT is a tricky one then because another cofactor is samE which means you need methyl groups. Still, that might be part of the picture on why niacin works for you. I still don't know your COMT status but even though my COMT status isn't bad I'm pretty sure my good response to methyl groups has partly been helping COMT eliminate all that god awful benzo wd adrenaline.

[[je...]]

Smiff,

Thanks for posting all that your taking, its great that you are seeing benefits from the supplements... Still debating on getting the genetic test now or after Im healed.. I want to take supplements NOW, but just don't know if I would tolerate them well or not. I guess Im a bit of a chicken...

[Guest [Ma...]]

Smiff,

How is your CBS, BHMT & VDR?

 

Also, did your 23andme report run results for SHMT?

 

Glad you are doing well on your taper!

 

Marija

 

[[Sm...]]

Smiff,

How is your CBS, BHMT & VDR?

 

Also, did your 23andme report run results for SHMT?

 

Glad you are doing well on your taper!

 

Marija

 

Hey Marija

 

My both VDR 2/2 are heterozygous. I only found that out then looking it up. I don't know much about VDR. Can you tell me something about it? I saw it has a role in inflammatory responses which I do think is part of the picture of the chronic form of benzo wd.

 

My CBS are fairly screwed with all 4/4 heterozygous.

 

BHMT-08 is homozygous. The rest aren't a polymorphism

 

 

You sound like you know something about this. Has any of this helped you?

[[Sm...]]

Smiff,

Thanks for posting all that your taking, its great that you are seeing benefits from the supplements... Still debating on getting the genetic test now or after Im healed.. I want to take supplements NOW, but just don't know if I would tolerate them well or not. I guess Im a bit of a chicken...

 

It is easy to be worried after the hyper-reactivity of benzo wd. It took some convincing to try what I did. I did it slowly  and testing each bit at a time. When you are ready is good. In the mean time I hope you're well 

[[Sm...]]

now I've gone to look up BHMT-08 a bit more - of course I did, even though I don't have time

Anyway, I found this which was kinda interesting:

 

http://dramyyasko.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/39-A1-BHMT8.pdf

 

Basically it says BHMT8 increases nor-epinephrine, particularly relative to dopamine. Then it goes on to say that CBS upregulations, producing extra sulfur, increase cortisol PLUS inhibit adrenaline receptors which results in lots of free circulating adrenaline.

I haven't got my head around it properly yet but it sounds like it could pose an interesting relationship to benzo wd and the increased cortisol and adrenaline that results in

[Guest [Ma...]]

Smiff,

 

This is a brief description of VDRtaq from heartfixer.com

I've found that website very helpful.

From my research, and methylation practitioner, the VDR variations all play a role in D3 reception.

The more I dig into this, together with my nutritional evaluations, the more I believe this factors into this benzo beast experience.

 

I'm homozygous for CBS, BHMT and MTRR. Trying to fix this is proving challenging.

 

 

 

VDR Taq:  Vitamin D Receptor Taq Abnormality

 

Vitamin D has many functions, an issue because 90% of my patients have low or low normal Vitamin D levels.  Pertinent to this discussion, Vitamin D stimulate the enzymes that generate dopamine, a good reason to keep your Vitamin D level up, as we need dopamine to defend against microbes and metals, and to keep our mood up.  While we utilize SAMe (and indirectly other methyl group donors) to degrade dopamine, we also utilize methyl donors to generate dopamine.  Individuals with a normal Vitamin D receptor, those who are VDR Taq (-/-), make plenty of dopamine.  They tend not to need or to tolerate methyl groups or dopamine precursor substances.  With respect to methyl group need and tolerance, they behave like COMT (+) individuals.  Individuals (+/+) or (+/-) for VDR Taq defect have lower Vitamin D levels, make less dopamine, and will need and tolerate dopamine precursor substances and methyl donors.  With respect to methyl donor tolerance, VDR Taq (+) individuals behave like COMT (-) individuals.  All sorts of permutations are possible here, impacting on your tolerance and need for dopamine precursors and methyl groups.  I acknowledge that this is all very difficult to understand.  Hopefully the chart below will help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

COMT    (+/+)

 

VDR Taq (-/-)

 

Highest dopamine levels

Better tolerance to toxins and microbes

Low need tolerance for dopamine precursors and methyl donors

Greatest susceptibility to mood swings

 

In such as individual, we would utilize the “un methylated” forms of Methyl Cycle intermediates.  If an MTR/MTRR defect increases your need for methyl-B12, in this individual we would start with hydroxy-B12, to avoid ODing you with methyl groups, expecting that with enough hydroxy-B12 and free methyl groups floating around you will form up some methyl-B12, even if MTRR activity is compromised by a defect.  We would not give your dopamine precursors such as quercetin or the herb macuna puriens.  We would not advise a diet high in tyrosine, the amino acid precursor of dopamine.  COMT (+/+) VDR Taq (-/-) individuals will be susceptible to iodine and lithium depletion as they detoxify, and we will have to watch for this and supplement accordingly.

 

COMT    (-/-)

 

VDR Taq (+/+)

 

Lowest dopamine levels

Poor tolerance to toxins and microbes

Needs and tolerates dopamine precursors and methyl donors

Lowest susceptibility to mood swings

 

In such an individual, we would utilize the methylated forms of Methyl Cycle intermediates, including methyl-B12 if n TR/MTRR defect is present.  Dopamine precursors such as quercetin, ginkgo biloba, and the herb macuna puriens might be helpful, as would a diet high in tyrosine, the amino acid precursor to dopamine.  Other methyl donors, including melatonin, TMG, turmeric, theanine, along with MSM and SAMe (the latter two only for CBS (-/-) individuals) would make sense. To support BHMT, instead of Phosphatidylserine, we would use Pedi-Activ, which contains Phosphatidylserine and DMAE, a methyl donor.  Rather than using GABA to deal with excitotoxicity, we would use Zen, which combines GABA with the methyl donor threanine.

 

COMT (+/-) and VDR (-/-) behaves like COMT (+/+)

COMT (+/-) and VDR (+/+) behaves like COMT (-/-)

 

Multiple (+/-) combinations of COMT and VDR Taq are possible.  We will address these “intermediate” genotypes with intermediate levels of methyl group supplementation.  I will be more specific on your individual report.

[[Sm...]]

Hey Smiff. That's GRET to hear!

So glad u are finding success!

 

Couple of questions...

What did your 23andme say with regards to B12? Yasko suggests the different types. I am supposed to take adenosyl or hydroxy based on COMT and VDR things. And also do you take it sublingually?

 

The methylfolate - how did you find what amount worked? Was your doctor helpful or just trial and error?

 

Last thing - your Valium - (I  having to dose 3 times a day and probably should be doing it more based on duration of action in my body. Have you been able to just stick with one dose per day?

 

Thanks. Keep up the good work!

Let us know what else you find out!

Blessings

Selah

 

Hey Selah 

 

I have 2/2 VDR heterozygous and only have 1 heterozygous COMT so I'm alright for methyl B12. I still sometimes get too many neurotransmitters action but I am homozygous MAO, so it is a balancing act.

 

What VDR and COMT do you have?

 

on the methylfolate.. my guy usually suggested a higher dose than I was happy with. He wasn't used to working with hyper sensitive benzo peeps. I did it based on trial and error. I tried small amounts initially. Then added more. It worked. I still can't really handle more than 1mg for more than a day. The buzz gets too much. I guess that is MAO.

 

Yup still only taking valium once a day.

 

What are you taking to get around VDR and COMT? Bminus? folinic acid and hydroxo b12?

[[Sm...]]

Smiff,

 

This is a brief description of VDRtaq from heartfixer.com

I've found that website very helpful.

From my research, and methylation practitioner, the VDR variations all play a role in D3 reception.

The more I dig into this, together with my nutritional evaluations, the more I believe this factors into this benzo beast experience.

 

I'm homozygous for CBS, BHMT and MTRR. Trying to fix this is proving challenging.

 

 

 

VDR Taq:  Vitamin D Receptor Taq Abnormality

 

Vitamin D has many functions, an issue because 90% of my patients have low or low normal Vitamin D levels.  Pertinent to this discussion, Vitamin D stimulate the enzymes that generate dopamine, a good reason to keep your Vitamin D level up, as we need dopamine to defend against microbes and metals, and to keep our mood up.  While we utilize SAMe (and indirectly other methyl group donors) to degrade dopamine, we also utilize methyl donors to generate dopamine.  Individuals with a normal Vitamin D receptor, those who are VDR Taq (-/-), make plenty of dopamine.  They tend not to need or to tolerate methyl groups or dopamine precursor substances.  With respect to methyl group need and tolerance, they behave like COMT (+) individuals.  Individuals (+/+) or (+/-) for VDR Taq defect have lower Vitamin D levels, make less dopamine, and will need and tolerate dopamine precursor substances and methyl donors.  With respect to methyl donor tolerance, VDR Taq (+) individuals behave like COMT (-) individuals.  All sorts of permutations are possible here, impacting on your tolerance and need for dopamine precursors and methyl groups.  I acknowledge that this is all very difficult to understand.  Hopefully the chart below will help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

COMT    (+/+)

 

VDR Taq (-/-)

 

Highest dopamine levels

Better tolerance to toxins and microbes

Low need tolerance for dopamine precursors and methyl donors

Greatest susceptibility to mood swings

 

In such as individual, we would utilize the “un methylated” forms of Methyl Cycle intermediates.  If an MTR/MTRR defect increases your need for methyl-B12, in this individual we would start with hydroxy-B12, to avoid ODing you with methyl groups, expecting that with enough hydroxy-B12 and free methyl groups floating around you will form up some methyl-B12, even if MTRR activity is compromised by a defect.  We would not give your dopamine precursors such as quercetin or the herb macuna puriens.  We would not advise a diet high in tyrosine, the amino acid precursor of dopamine.  COMT (+/+) VDR Taq (-/-) individuals will be susceptible to iodine and lithium depletion as they detoxify, and we will have to watch for this and supplement accordingly.

 

COMT    (-/-)

 

VDR Taq (+/+)

 

Lowest dopamine levels

Poor tolerance to toxins and microbes

Needs and tolerates dopamine precursors and methyl donors

Lowest susceptibility to mood swings

 

In such an individual, we would utilize the methylated forms of Methyl Cycle intermediates, including methyl-B12 if n TR/MTRR defect is present.  Dopamine precursors such as quercetin, ginkgo biloba, and the herb macuna puriens might be helpful, as would a diet high in tyrosine, the amino acid precursor to dopamine.  Other methyl donors, including melatonin, TMG, turmeric, theanine, along with MSM and SAMe (the latter two only for CBS (-/-) individuals) would make sense. To support BHMT, instead of Phosphatidylserine, we would use Pedi-Activ, which contains Phosphatidylserine and DMAE, a methyl donor.  Rather than using GABA to deal with excitotoxicity, we would use Zen, which combines GABA with the methyl donor threanine.

 

COMT (+/-) and VDR (-/-) behaves like COMT (+/+)

COMT (+/-) and VDR (+/+) behaves like COMT (-/-)

 

Multiple (+/-) combinations of COMT and VDR Taq are possible.  We will address these “intermediate” genotypes with intermediate levels of methyl group supplementation.  I will be more specific on your individual report.

 

That is super interesting. So I guess since I'm heterozygous I'm somewhere in-between hence I mostly tolerate and need methyl groups.

 

Homozygous to CBS has got to suck. I've struggled with CBS. Liposomal gluthathione, and keeping my methyl groups high, was the most important thing for me here. Vitamin B still causes me problems form CBS.

 

You'd need methyl B12 big time with those snps wouldn't you? How does methyl B12 sit with you?

[[Sm...]]

 

From my research, and methylation practitioner, the VDR variations all play a role in D3 reception.

The more I dig into this, together with my nutritional evaluations, the more I believe this factors into this benzo beast experience.

 

 

totally agree. I think people often make the mistake of trying to find the root cause of benzo wd, or giving up totally on causal factors. There is no one cause of something so complex. These snps don't cause benzo wd. I believe it just it complicates it, and makes it worse. That is enough though. If there is even a few controllable things that you can put in place to help yourself deal with the fall out of benzo wd it is worth it by my reckoning.

 

 

Are you MTHFR too?

[Guest [Ma...]]

The CBS up regulation is a nightmare!

I rotate methyl, hydroxyl and adenosine B12 but it's still insufficient. The problem is the MTR, COMT, MTRR and heterozygous for MTHFR. A mess. Alters my ability to manufacture adequate SAMe - SAH and all the down stream metabolites from CBS.

I feel better with methyl B12 though and need to increase my glycine, lysine and B6 & 2 to make the gears turn.

Where do you purchase your liposomal glutathione? 

[[Sm...]]

The CBS up regulation is a nightmare!

I rotate methyl, hydroxyl and adenosine B12 but it's still insufficient. The problem is the MTR, COMT, MTRR and heterozygous for MTHFR. A mess. Alters my ability to manufacture adequate SAMe - SAH and all the down stream metabolites from CBS.

I feel better with methyl B12 though and need to increase my glycine, lysine and B6 & 2 to make the gears turn.

Where do you purchase your liposomal glutathione?

 

Yea I'd imagine you feel better with methyl B12. Because CBS sucks it down its pathway of blag, it is like you need even more.

 

You need more b6? I can't handle any decent doses of B6. I have in the past so I'm hopeful I will again in the future.

Can you handle glycine? Glycine gives me serious waves hence I have to avoid all bi-glycinate forms of minerals. It hits NMDA receptors so I'm guessing that is where the wavey comes in.

 

Liposomal gluthathione is from seeking health.

[Guest [Ma...]]

I will bump my methyl B12 to 2,000 mcg.

I am very deficient in glycine, B2 & B6; need to risk waves.

My body is the perfect storm 😳

 

I like the Seeking Health products. I will pick some up - thanks. 

[[Se...]]

For those keeping tabs on this ...

Here's a link to the first of 4 videos called "Methylation Made Easy". Easy to understand.

 

Hopefully will help someone. The other 3 video links are right after this first one on YouTube.

 

 

Blessings

Selah

[[Se...]]

Hey Smiff,

Take a look at this link on GABA /Glutamate balance from Dr. Yasko and tell me what you think...

 

http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how-to-increase-gaba-and-balance-glutamate/

 

Thanks! Hope you are well!

Blessings Selah

[[Sm...]]

It is a good read Selah. It sounds sensible enough. I guess nothing in there is very controversial so it shouldn't hurt anyone/most people

The balance thing is interesting. I've been able to drink daily whey again now. I actually found it helped me sleep a bit, maybe because of the tryptophan.

She is probably right-ish on the animal protein front, except I think in my case maybe I had to reduce all my protein for a while because of ammonia, and possibly glutamate.

All in all as I'm healing so is my chemical sensitivities, presumably partly because I am closer to balance and the tiniest bit doesn't tip it to crazy town.

And we all know excess glutamate is crazy town.

 

How you feeling Selah?

[[Se...]]

Hi Smiff,

Marija -

Struggling with MTHFR stuff.

Found out my "MTHFR-wise" doc is not really at all. Just blows a lot of smoke.

So infuriating. Found others who used him and they were AWFUL!

Stuck. Need help.

Also need to know how you get your Bs tested. I know you have to not take your Ba for a few days to get true levels unless I am mistaken. I can't do that. It's like my body is addicted to the vitamins  I am at such a loss.

I know I am depleted. Badly.

Also really need to figure out the niacin thing.

It is in B-minus by seeking health. Why I don't know because evidently it stops methylation?

I can't figure out if I over or under methylate and this Valium is not sitting well with me.

Also, I have read that niacin and niacinimide interact with GABA receptors.

What on earth!

Soooo stuck. Am afraid I am messing up my taper again.

Any advice would be great.

Thanks!

 

[[Sm...]]

Hi Smiff,

Marija -

Struggling with MTHFR stuff.

Found out my "MTHFR-wise" doc is not really at all. Just blows a lot of smoke.

So infuriating. Found others who used him and they were AWFUL!

Stuck. Need help.

Also need to know how you get your Bs tested. I know you have to not take your Ba for a few days to get true levels unless I am mistaken. I can't do that. It's like my body is addicted to the vitamins  I am at such a loss.

I know I am depleted. Badly.

Also really need to figure out the niacin thing.

It is in B-minus by seeking health. Why I don't know because evidently it stops methylation?

I can't figure out if I over or under methylate and this Valium is not sitting well with me.

Also, I have read that niacin and niacinimide interact with GABA receptors.

What on earth!

Soooo stuck. Am afraid I am messing up my taper again.

Any advice would be great.

Thanks!

 

Selah I'm not sure I can help

 

but I can maaayybbee (not very likely) offer some suggestions but I'd need to know everything:

 

what exactly are you taking - dosages and all

 

what are your main SNPs: COMT, MAO, MTHFR, CBS, VDR