Methylation Cycle dysfunction a possible part of benzo withdrawal picture

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Gmit, did your doc run all those tests? Or did you get them yourself? I'm interested to see what my levels are gor everything. All I know is my D is low but when I take D I get anxiety pretty bad.

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I'm not trying to heal the wd, although it would be nice! I'm trying to get healthy, which could also aid in healing!

 

 

 

I know precisely what you mean!

[[Se...]]

Smiff cool and GMIT

 

I am part of the Magnesium Advocacy Group on Facebook. LOTs of good information regarding nutritional / mineral interactions that sply aren't addressed I. The medical world and how Magnesium is so critical in all healing and cellular function - and how it plays out and interacts with other cofactors and nutrients and enzymes.

 

Here's a link regarding the founders thoughts on MTHFR. This guy does a lot of research. And keeps digging all the time into the biochemistry and nutrition of the body. Lots of really good info on the site. Lots of vet knowledgeable people on there - including some doctors, etc. also Benzo survivors getting help too. (Some not so knowledgeable ones like me too!) You just have to dig through the site to find answers. New research regarding the thoughts on vitamin D too. As it is not a vitamin but a hormone. And when your magnesium levels are low your D goes low. They are interlinked.

Anyway. Here's thee MTHFR link if you are interested. Well worth looking at as their focus is healing the body nutritionally with what we are lacking.

 

http://gotmag.org/mg-deficiency-affects-mthfr-really/

 

Blessings Selah

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Gmit, did your doc run all those tests? Or did you get them yourself? I'm interested to see what my levels are gor everything. All I know is my D is low but when I take D I get anxiety pretty bad.

 

 

I did the cortisol myself, my doc had me to the micronutrient and the neurotransmitters!

 

Selah, I'm on the FaceBook site for magnesium! My magnesium is not low, but I've been supplementing with magnesium glycinate for months! I took zinc as well!

 

[[Co...]]

Thanks gmit.

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Sure! There are sites that you can run tests yourself, like MyMedLab!

 

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Ms off cool and GMIT

 

I am part of the Magnesium Advocacy Group on Facebook. LOTs of good information regarding nutritional / mineral interactions that sply aren't addressed I. The medical world and how Magnesium is so critical in all healing and cellular function - and how it plays out and interacts with other cofactors and nutrients and enzymes.

 

Here's a link regarding the founders thoughts on MTHFR. This guy does a lot of research. And keeps digging all the time into the biochemistry and nutrition of the body. Lots of really good info on the site. Lots of vet knowledgeable people on there - including some doctors, etc. also Benzo survivors getting help too. (Some not so knowledgeable ones like me too!) You just have to dig through the site to find answers. New research regarding the thoughts on vitamin D too. As it is not a vitamin but a hormone. And when your magnesium levels are low your D goes low. They are interlinked.

Anyway. Here's thee MTHFR link if you are interested. Well worth looking at as their focus is healing the body nutritionally with what we are lacking.

 

http://gotmag.org/mg-deficiency-affects-mthfr-really/

 

Blessings Selah

 

Selah can you recommend a good magnesium?

 

I was about to buy one but it was magnesium biglyciene and I didn't want to risk the glyceine.

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Sure! There are sites that you can run tests yourself, like MyMedLab!

 

 

Oh cool thx. I was looking at them right before I read this. I'll try that site. Thanks smitten (the kitten) lol

[[Se...]]

Hi Smiff

I hate recommending stuff to people! So worried about messing my own body up let alone others. I take magnesium malate Twice a day. Not sure my brand is great. The magnesium site has better info. Transdermal magnesium is really good. Have made my own magnesium chloride oil and sprayed on my skin to help with cramping etc. my body is just sooooo sensitive! I had done mag glycinate last year. Then stopp and all the floors dropped out from under me.

Switched toaye this year because read that malic acid is needed for the Krebs cycle. For some magnesium is energizing and stimating. Other kinds are more calming. It seems to be totally individual. Even "normal" people not on benzos seem to have trial and error with this. That's why the site is helpful. And it can work for a whe with people then they have to change it up. Making sure they get all the cofactors balanced right. The mag Facebook group has lots of files posted to their main page that explain the basics and all kinds of other stuff. People from all over the world are on it. Hope that helps a bit!

 

GMIT - what kind of doctor did you use to get your micronutrient testing done? I paid out of pocket earlier this year to get Spectracell done - unknowingly and not covered by my insurance as was explained. Still working on a doctor to beleive me that my nutrients are messed up. Want to get help so I know where to start. Did you do the HTMA?

Thanks for your help?

Blessings

Selah

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Mine was done through my doctor but it was Spectracell. I paid $190 for it! I have not done HTMA. I am seeing an internist.

 

She recommended Ashwaghanda for my extremely high nighttime cortisol, but I am allergic to it!

 

[[Se...]]

Hi GMIT

Have heard ashwaganda not great for Gaba stuff. Heard some people have done well with vitamin C for cortisol. Not sure though. My insurance doesn't cover Spectracell. Out of pocket was a SHOCK! Sounds like you have a good internist. Can't find/ get an empathetic ear. I keep asking for nutritional testing. My GP won't order because she doesn't know what the results mean!? Crazy. I think it's more about not wanting to be sued.

The 2 doctors I have seen regarding MTHFR have been the "one size fits all" type. Not helpful. The one naturopathic doc I saw who was interested and really studying Yaskos stuff was $350/hr.

So I am researching what I can when I can.

Glad you have someone who will at least look into things. I think the health aspect complicates way more than we realize. Praying for healing for all!

Blessings

Selah

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I've heard that the Ashwaghanda wasn't good with wd, but the nighttime cortisol is killing me with the 3 am wake ups! Doesn't matter, cause I had such a bad allergic reaction to it!

 

I've been taking vitamin c for a long time, but testing shows it's great, so I've stopped it for a while! I'm doing much better since I'm supplementing for the deficiencies! The problem I have right now is a very terrible cold!

 

[[Ma...]]

I would really like to know what to start eating for this. I am a mess and won't even remember reading it later I'm so bad. I have to have specific directions for everything again. This is so hard.

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To treat the methylenation you need to first know your mutations! You need to get a test, such as 23andme!

 

[[Ma...]]

To treat the methylenation you need to first know your mutations! You need to get a test, such as 23andme!

 

Tha is so much. Can it really be healed though? I sure hope so. I got bad cfs 8 years ago from pesticides.

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Yeah! People treat through their mutations and do get better!

 

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To treat the methylenation you need to first know your mutations! You need to get a test, such as 23andme!

 

Tha is so much. Can it really be healed though? I sure hope so. I got bad cfs 8 years ago from pesticides.

 

You never know what can be healed. We just don't know. But you can always try.

With past bad cfs, and a protracted withdrawal, I'd say you need someone who really knows their stuff. You could find a practitioner who knows their methylation on redmountainclinic.com or mthfr.net. They'll want 23andme anyhow.

 

You can still work on simple, safeish, stuff in your diet thought. Cutting out neurotoxins, or excitory substances, is I think helpful for anyone and shouldn't throw you.

 

Very simply you can try cutting out wheat, tofu, most other soy products (particularly soy protein isolate and concentrate), oats, any aspartame products, any 'protein' products (protein powders/shakes/bars)

 

Additionally you could try to minimise dairy and gluten (possibly eliminate it?) in general.

 

Other than that a varied diet where you have multiple small meals a day to keep blood sugar steady is a good idea.

 

Vegetables and fruits tend to be highly anti inflammatory, anti oxidants with a good dose of nutrients, so you could really try to actually eat 8 serves of different vegetables (and fruit) daily. Blueberries, green vegetables, cruciferous vegetables and herbs are stand outs on nutritional front. One way to get extra is smoothies and juices though you want to minimise fruit in juices as it has the highly concentrated form of their sugars without their fibre.

 

Fresh, unprocessed whole foods are going to be easier on your body too.

 

Finally, if you want to chuck in another dimension avoid, or lower, histamine rich foods: fermented foods, bananas, beetroot, spinach, peaches, apricots, chocolate, soy products, dairy products.

 

So in sum if you want to try to tweak your diet and see what happens after a week:

 

In

 

Lots of vegetables and fruit/frequent meals

 

Cruciferous vegetables - cauliflower, bok choy, cabbage, broccoli

Green vegetables (not spinach)

Blueberries

Mango

Apple (particularly green)

carrot

parsnip

artichoke

fennel

celery

cucumber

lettuce

kale

Zucchini

Peppers (less so chilli spectrum)

Melons

Cherries?

onion

garlic

ginger

tumeric

all herbs

Meat

eggs

nuts - ?depending on how you react/good quality almonds tend to be pretty good

minimal dairy

rice (rice pastas etc)

lentils

Chickpeas

beans (except for red beans) - depending on how well you react

 

OUT

protein products

soy

wheat/gluten

any MSG

aspartame

highly processed foods

too much dairy

fermented foods ?(unless you don't react in which case they are IN)

apricots/peaches ? (unless you don't react to them in which case they are IN)

some berries ?(stawberry, blackberry, raspberry unless you don't react to them in which case they are IN)

spinach?

beetroot ?

Tomatoes?

Banana?

potatoes ?

pumpkin ?(unless you don't react in which case it is IN)

quinoa?

Chocolate

Cinnamon?

oats?

some nuts?

 

These are just my thoughts from reading and testing on myself. I'm not a dr or nutritionist. I tend to think the above list though isn't controversial and is unlikely to hurt someone though which I why I'm willing to say it. But with everything this is a highly individual thing. Sometimes you need to try a bunch of the questionable stuff to see if you have a reaction and know whether it is in or out. So all the things that are questionable - have brackets or ? next to them  - you can try by having none for a week and then add it in to see how you go. The question mark ones are related to histamine.. It may not be a problem someone has but if their methylation is compromised or if they are getting rebound from some psych med anti histamine quality then it very well may be and you may as well try going a week without them or just limit them.

 

From the other article these are common sources of neurotoxins glutamate, aspartate, aspartame etc

 

Monosodium glutamate. Keep in mind that MSG is found in numerous places you may not be aware of like most processed food, fast food restaurants, and it may be a binder in medications, supplements, prescription drugs, over the counter drugs, IV fluids, vaccines, and as a growth enhancer sprayed on crops of food and produce called Auxigrow.

 

Aspartame (Nutrasweet)

 

Glutamate and aspartate are naturally occurring in wheat gluten, hydrolyzed yeast, and milk casein.

 

Other common food sources that contain excitotoxins include hydrolyzed protein, hydrolyzed oat flour, or anything hydrolyzed, sodium caseinate, calcium caseinate, disodium caseinate, autolyzed yeast, yeast extract or anything else autolyzed, gelatin, glutamic acid, carageenan or vegetable gum, guar gum, bouillon, kombu extract, anything malted, maltodextrin, many seasonings and spices, soy extract, soy protein or soy protein concentrate, or soy protein isolate, and soy sauce, textured protein, whey protein, whey protein concentrate or isolate.

 

The words natural flavor or natural flavoring on a package typically means it contains MSG or some other excitotoxin because they are used to stimulate your taste buds and artificially intensify flavor.

 

Other foods or substances that contain excitotoxins and can damage nerves include anything fermented, protein fortified, or ultra-pasteurized, or vitamin enriched, corn syrup, body builder formulas or protein formulas, caramel flavoring or coloring, flowing agents, dry milk, L-cysteine, egg substitutes, cornstarch and some brands of corn chips, citric acid if it is processed from corn, certain brands of cold cuts, hot dogs and sausages (even the ones in health food stores), many canned foods, pectin, pickles, any processed food, meats in mainstream grocery store are often injected with them, tofu or other fermented soy products, xanthan gum or other gums.

 

[[Co...]]

I would really like to know what to start eating for this. I am a mess and won't even remember reading it later I'm so bad. I have to have specific directions for everything again. This is so hard.

 

I have the same problem. What I'm doing is trying to eliminate all grains, dairy, sugar and mostly all junk food. That leaves organic vegetables, fruits, meats. I'm not sure I can handle nuts and seeds so will leave those out for now. Eating healthy is a must for any condition. Then once u find out you test results, you can fine tune it. It's mostly diet and supplements for this.

[[Sm...]]

I would really like to know what to start eating for this. I am a mess and won't even remember reading it later I'm so bad. I have to have specific directions for everything again. This is so hard.

 

I have the same problem. What I'm doing is trying to eliminate all grains, dairy, sugar and mostly all junk food. That leaves organic vegetables, fruits, meats. I'm not sure I can handle nuts and seeds so will leave those out for now. Eating healthy is a must for any condition. Then once u find out you test results, you can fine tune it. It's mostly diet and supplements for this.

 

Tell use how you go Cool 

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Someone asked me to explain why I thought it could be involved in benzo wd. I don't know if I succeeded. In fact I'm pretty sure I didn't. A big part of the problem is my knowledge in the area is still infinitesimally small (maybe not infinitesimally small but certainly teeny tiny)

 

But here is what I wrote

 

ok so my thoughts on this are infant thoughts that are only half formed but here is some of the connections I see with both why benzo wd is worse for some people, and how outcomes may possibly (less clear on this) be improved.

The main 3 things I think of with methylation and benzo wd are:

1) the GAD snp/enzyme and how that degrades glutamate (turns it into GABA even) and a mutation with that could see excesses of glutamate with little (to virtually nil once very dysfunctional?) ways of ridding the body of glutamate (and I think we mostly accept glutamate is part of the picture of benzo wd).

2) Possibly the COMT snp/enzyme is implicated as it breaks down, and regulates, adrenaline and cortisol. Upshot is if there is a polymorphism here than you will have more cortiosl and more adrenaline, in response to stress. Furthermore, both cortisol and adrenaline will stay in the body longer as COMT is implicated in the break down of adrenaline in particular. The implications of having increased cortisol and decreased elimination of stress hormones is fairly well documented (here is a paper I was just reading on COMT genotype and HPA axis 'Children under stress - COMT genotype and stressful live events' http://ijnp.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/9/1229. This talks a bit about COMT and adrenaline https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xehiaWFafBM.. This one talks about methylation problems and blood sugar and general methylation snps which might interest you

)

3) Generally - and this includes point 1/2 - methylation is a big part of dealing with inflammation, detoxification, and elimination (particularly stress hormones and glutamate as above but also homo-cysteine, ammonia and histamine [Excess homocysteine is bad news!]) so having a dysfunctional methylation system - or genetically questionable methylation dispositions - could potentially mean you are more likely to suffer the affects of stress, and out of control inflammation throughout your body/brain/cells (gut permeability; GI issues; headaches; pain; depression etc etc). But also the appealing thing is how interconnected methylation processes are. So if one area is working overtime to degrade adrenaline, or glutamate, other areas will fall short - particularly if you are genetically not so awesome in any part of the methylation cycle (for instance a kinda not uncommon mutation called MTHFR). This is true particularly in situations of stress, as physiological stressors - disease etc - or general stressors will inevitably have one part of the system working those methyl groups overtime which can leave deficits in other areas. This fits my lived experience of benzo wd and the fact that a stressor - physical or other - can set off other issues which can cascade until equilibrium again returns.

 

My other baby thoughts on this have to do with histamine (histamine is also degraded by methylation processes and excesses of it are inflammatory, neurotoxic and can result in symptoms of anxiety etc). Being reactive to histamines in food can particularly indicate impaired methylation because you don't have excess histamine as an immuune response but rather because you aren't breaking it down properly. On that topic I note that beyondmeds and a few others have got into the topic, and diet, of histamine intolerance.

 

My final baby thoughts are on the question of why - if there are genetic changes at the sites of the receptors in the brain as an adaptation to benzo use - is that some people can bounce back - change back? - and others can't. Methylation is a BIG factor in DNA maintenance, repair and gene expression so is it possible impaired methylation means less adaptive genetics/epigenetics and/or impaired gene expression?

 

One infant question I have is whether methylation relates to drug metabolism and how.

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Here are a couple that I thought I would add! I know I'm homozygous for these! The VDR is tied to vitamin D, which so many of us are low in! This come directly from Dr. Yasko.

 

 

MAO-A

MaoA is involved in the breakdown of serotonin in the body. Like dopamine, serotonin is another

neurotransmitter in the body. It is involved with mood, and imbalances in serotonin levels have

been associated with depression, aggression, anxiety and OCD behavior. Since Mao A is

inherited with the X chromosome and is considered a dependent trait it may not show standard

inheritance characteristics in males. Since the X chromosome in males can only come from the

mother, this means that the fathers Mao A mutations (or lack thereof) does not play a role in

their sons Mao A status. For females, since one X chromosome is inherited from each parent,

the genetics tend to reflect the Mao A status of both parents.

 

 

VDR taq VDR fok

The panel looks at more than one portion of the vitamin D receptor, the Taq as well as the Fok

sites. While the Fok change has been related to blood sugar regulation, changes at Taq can

affect dopamine levels. For this reason it is important to look at the composite of the COMT and

VDR/Taq status and make supplement suggestions based on the combined results at these two

sites. The focus on changes in the Fok portion of the VDR is in regards to supplements that

support the pancreas and aid in keeping blood sugar in the normal healthy range. Understanding

of the VDR SNPs is a bit more complicated.

The situation with Fok is more complex as the polymorphism (FF, loss of site) actually leads to

the production of a protein with increased activity. The Fok SNP, situated in exon 2, gives

rise to an alteration in the start codon position resulting in a 3 amino acid longer protein than

produced by the F allele. So the Fok site affects the protein directly such that those who are

missing the restriction site (FF) make a shorter protein, but one that is actually more active.

While those who do not have a mutation and have the restriction site actually make the full

length protein but it has less activity. (Nutrition Reviews, What Are the Frequency,

Distribution, and Functional Effects of Vitamin D Receptor Polymorphisms as Related to Cancer

Risk? Nicholas J. Rukin August 2007(II): S96 -S101Vol. 65, No8). In conclusion, the Fok

polymorphism yields a 424 VDR variant somewhat more active than the 427 variant in terms of

its transactivation capacity as a transcription factor. (Uitterlinden et al. / Gene 338 (2004)

143-156)

The Taq and Bsm situation is even more complicated. Both are in a regulatory portion of the

protein and the SNP changes do not affect the protein per se but they both affect a regulatory

string of As in the sequence. Thus the presence or absence of the Bsm and Taq sites affects the number of A's in the protein.

Since Bsm and Taq have inverse effects both Bt and bT impact the number of As. The number

of As in turn affects the stability of the information to make the VDR protein. As with everything

else related to VDR, there is disagreement whether the shorter stretch of As (Bt) or the longer

stretch of As (bT) grants more stability to the protein. Reports regarding which genotype is

associated with a range of diseases or health conditions vary depending on the researcher.

We use the tt or TT designation to denote VDR Taq and FF and ff for Fok. Those who are tt

should consider more limited methyl donors. Those who are TT tend to have a greater tolerance

for i.e. methylB12. Again, the bottom line is that Dr Amy feels low dose vitamin D plus rosemary

and sage and resveratrol are a positive for all. This is especially true as there is conflicting

literature regarding disease susceptibility and the various VDR SNPS that at times is totally

contradictory.

 

[[Se...]]

GMIT - you have done a lot of work. I only recently got my results so I have a long way to go. I added my 23and me to several websites (my husband did for me). Amy Yaskos link. Geneticgenie  And Livewello. Which did you find most useful in I interpreting what and how to proceed?

I am having difficulty with my taper as my CYP450 enzymes have become extremely sensitive - in part due to this tapering processs and in part due toy methylation issues I am sure. I think they are more sensitive to compensate for my poor detoxification. Not sure.

 

Smiff - yes the methylation pathway and various SNPs etc DEFINITELY have to do with drug metabolism because the detox pathway is affected. My not so Benzowise doctor thought it was odd I needed to dose my valium so frequently. He said I was only encouraging a Pavlovian response... Lol! He's obviously never been through Benzo withdrawal!  However - he did suggest a genetic panel that would look at how my body processed psych drugs and opiates I beleive. It would specify which drugs would / would not be a problem genetically so that people could be better treated with appropriate antidepressants, psych drugs, all kinds of things that suited their genotype. Newer physician specific or psych doc specific testing I guess.  So I called the 2 different companies and they wanted to charge $3000.00! But If I had Medicare it would have been $200. So I spoke with my other doc who said 23and me would provide more info. Wish I didn't have the money so I could get the test done. Now have to find a way to interpret my results. My doctor said she believes since Medicare is covering this new testing that it will soon (within the next year) become more mainstream. But yes they are linked.

 

The methylation pathway contributes to glutathione production - which I am severely lacking in - and other pathways I. The liver/body that detox. So it is all intertwined. My one doc thinks I am a fast metabolizer of meds. Have to research more on my results and this.

 

Found a link that explains the phase 1 and 2 detox pathways fairly simply. It's not published medical journal but just an easy read. But this is exactly what makes me nervous with my situation regarding treating my SNPs MTHFR right now. Just not sure.

If you already know all this sorry if it's a repeat...the first part of the article with regards to liver pathways is what I am referring to. Not trying to detox as we all know!

 

http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/liver-detox-pathways/

 

Blessing

Selah

[[Co...]]

Definitely some interesting stuff!

[[Sm...]]

Selah so you are nervous about treating methylation during withdrawal because you are worried about more efficient drug metabolism? aka potentially worse withdrawal and interdose withdrawal?

 

If so the question has occurred to me too.

 

I asked an BB member called bart who know somethings about drug metabolism and he said it would play a role but a minor one. The main metaboliser is CYP450 enzyme which is also very variant between individuals.

 

mm interestings, as Cool rightly says

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http://www.tuberose.com/Graphics/liver-detox-pathway2.jpg

 

If I am reading this right methylation is needed in phase 2 but also really in stage 1 to provide the methyl forms of the B vitamins needed at the enzyme level?

Is that right?