Methylation Cycle dysfunction a possible part of benzo withdrawal picture

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I'm wrong. Thorne's multi has biglycinate form. The reason I thought it was all picolinate minerals/metals is because their prenatal multi is all picolinate.. weird

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TFAC .. well, you can suppress your CYP enzymes using grapefruit or piperine yea

So it would be like an updose. You wouldn't metabolise the V as much.

It isn't exactly a safe route to take

The CYP enzymes are needed for stuff plus they'll probably upregulate to compensate. When you take that piperine or grapefruit away like I did you do have a big withdrawal.

 

Curcumin is safe without piperine yea. As far as I know.

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http://indinature.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/April-Ward-Hauge-Yasko-Methylation-Cycle.jpg

[[pe...]]

Talked to doc today. She said you shouldn't take just b12 and folinic acid without supplementing with some kind of multi for more than a couple of weeks. Says it can lead to other symptoms.  So, I'm trying the multi with ginseng, in a very small dose.

 

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Talked to doc today. She said you shouldn't take just b12 and folinic acid without supplementing with some kind of multi for more than a couple of weeks. Says it can lead to other symptoms.  So, I'm trying the multi with ginseng, in a very small dose.

 

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Let us know how you go Peace?

 

The cycle I posted above is because it gives some memorable names,and a few symptoms, associated with a polymorphism at the enzyme

 

This one is pretty spectacular with all the cofactors. The body is a remarkably complex thing my friends

 

[[Se...]]

 

Hi Rose

Hi Smiff

 

Found this regarding Sagemom's experience. Not sure what to think anymore.

 

 

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=40450.0

[[ro...]]

Selah,

Yes I read the posts.. I'm more upset, confused. I've been on the deplin 2 months. And I feel more depressed. Cry all day..

 

Confused..feel like giving up on all this ...

 

Rose

 

Thank you for sharing this..

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Yea to be honest I'm not surprised.

Benzo wd makes for extreme sensitivity and biochemical chaos. You will find someone on here reacting to everything. Methylfolate is particularly difficult. Even non benzo wd people it can have side effects of anxiety and depression. Add to that she is MTHFR A rather than C - which generally calls for folinic acid not methylfolate - plus there is no mention of any of her other snps.. and yea.. really not surprised...

 

Deplin is also a very strong dose of methylfolate. It is something like 7mg of the stuff. That is a crap load.

 

I agree with her also when she says concentrating on nutrients in diet is the safest way for most people in benzo wd.

 

As for methylfolate if someone risks it they have to do two other things (at least): (1) avoid side effects from methyl trapping with electrolytes, gluthathione and small amounts of niacin (2) probably take zinc and b6 to support neurotransmitter production cause methylfolate could mean you eliminate neurotransmitters more (including those that ward off depression).

 

Rosie, you know I've never agreed with your current protocol. It is my opinion and I'm not remotely trained or even really know what I'm talking about. Even if I did I'd be skeptical about this absolutely helping someone in the biochemical mess of benzo wd. But yeah, I've never thought deplin alone was a good idea. Particularly with a standard multivitamin - with folic acid - and cynocobalamin b12. There isn't a person around who knows anything about this that would recommend that.

 

Your depression got worse lately. Is it since you started B12 or the multivitamin? It could be the deplin though. There was a Dr I mentioned a page back or so who thinks deplin shouldn't be used in depression because of the methylation elimination of neurotransmitters.

 

[[ro...]]

Smiff,

Yes, depression seems worse.

My dr l the psych , never told me any other directions. He said just take this deplin the rest of your life. No extra supplements or ones to avoid...

I try to eat well, but I fon feel better.

My primary dr also just says to eat well..

 

Do you think I need to find another doctor..

The only other ones are osteopaths, or chiropractors.....I saw one several counties away , who foes testing and interpretations...but more money...

I just don't know....I didn't take the deplin today..may just forget it.

 

I'm really tired of all this trying and hoping. 

I wish I had more support, info from my DRs, but they are very new to this also..they just say, take the folate, deplin.....

Just tired..

 

I'd like to start drinking...just forget everything...just drink......

 

Rose

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Up to you Rosie...

Good luck. Let me know how you go either which way  :smitten:

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you could start by just getting rid of the b12 .. you said the depression got worse since then. I only just caught on to that part

[[ro...]]

Hi Smiff,

 

Yes, I stopped the B12. I took a deplin break too. No supplements now.. Only 200 mg magnesium, chelated at bedtime, seems to help with calming ..only sleep 3 hours some nights..

 

Very depressed. Intrusive thoughts..cry much..

Need to get out of house more, but so exhausted or just blah.....

 

You are so sweet and kind..

Rose

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Hi Smiff,

 

Yes, I stopped the B12. I took a deplin break too. No supplements now.. Only 200 mg magnesium, chelated at bedtime, seems to help with calming ..only sleep 3 hours some nights..

 

Very depressed. Intrusive thoughts..cry much..

Need to get out of house more, but so exhausted or just blah.....

 

You are so sweet and kind..

Rose

 

ok

Well good luck

This stuff is never easy 

[[Se...]]

Hi Smiff-

What has your MTHFR doc said about niacin? I have read stuff on Ben Lynchs website MTHFR.net that says it stops methylation.

But I started taking his "B-minus" which has 180 much of niacin in it. The doc who I am talking to who works with Lynch said you need niacin, and that only high doses stop methylation. Does Yasko mention it at all? Very confused because it definitely clears my brain.

So frustrated.

Also, have you read any of "Freddd's" simplified methylation protocol on Phoenixrising.com?

Just wondering. He uses HIGH doses of sublingual B-12rthyl and adenosyl to heal nerve damage. Just curious?

Thanks.

Feel like I have been sent down another rabbit hole.

This doc said I have leaky gut - definitely I do, and suggested digestive enzymes, probiotic, and colostrum. Also checking for Lyme disease. Will see

Hope u r well!

Selah

[[Co...]]

Ok so which ones am I looking for? I have my results. Just the negative or the positive/negative too?

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Hi Smiff-

What has your MTHFR doc said about niacin? I have read stuff on Ben Lynchs website MTHFR.net that says it stops methylation.

But I started taking his "B-minus" which has 180 much of niacin in it. The doc who I am talking to who works with Lynch said you need niacin, and that only high doses stop methylation. Does Yasko mention it at all? Very confused because it definitely clears my brain.

So frustrated.

Also, have you read any of "Freddd's" simplified methylation protocol on Phoenixrising.com?

Just wondering. He uses HIGH doses of sublingual B-12rthyl and adenosyl to heal nerve damage. Just curious?

Thanks.

Feel like I have been sent down another rabbit hole.

This doc said I have leaky gut - definitely I do, and suggested digestive enzymes, probiotic, and colostrum. Also checking for Lyme disease. Will see

Hope u r well!

Selah

 

My MTHFR doc hasn't said much about niacin. We haven't put me on any but he said he planned to at some point. I said something like 'but oh doesn't it reduce methylation' and he said something similar to what yours did - only in high doses.

So the question is whether yours is high dose. Honestly I don't have an answer. You feel better from taking it? I think that is the key really

I took biotin/b7 yesterday. The plan was that it would help me tolerate B6. I didn't have a theoretical reason for how that would work. My MTHFR doc didn't really either. He said that a practitioner he knows had found biotin helped those who didn't tolerate B6 to tolerate. And.. it worked. I feel much better with biotin on b6.

I'll go by the 'how I respond' over anything theoretical any day. This area isn't hard fast science anyhow. As we know even standard old medicines - like benzos - aren't hard and fast perfect science. There are many many more questions about all drugs and vitamins than answers.

 

So.. I guess I think.. do what works for you.

 

I haven't seen 'Fredd's' protocol yet but I'll have a look. I have found B12 quite amazing. I haven't tried adenosyl yet though. That is on my to-do list. I bought the seeking health b12 which is 5mg - yup 5mg! of methyl and adenosyl b12. I haven't been game to try it yet.

I'll let you know.

 

Yes I've heard benzos cause leaky gut. I'm not surprised you do. I definitely did/do. I keep it at bay with two things: zinc; and probiotics. I had to build up my probiotics very slowly. I had to start on a d-lactate free probiotic with small amounts and build up. My goal was to be able to use l-plantarum which has double blind control study evidence of helping with leaky gut and IBS. I got there.You can buy it in a single strain at custom probiotics.

 

Sorry.. I gotta dash. Speak soon xx

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Ok so which ones am I looking for? I have my results. Just the negative or the positive/negative too?

 

the negative/positive ones too

 

They are heterogenous. You inherited it from one side not two - as is the case with the two negatives - but they can still play a role

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Ok I did it.. 5mg of adnosyl and methyl B12. I felt pretty awesome really

[[Se...]]

Hey Smiff

What did Yaskos suggestions say for you? To do both or just one or the other?

And did you break the dosing up? Throughout the day? Also did the B12 make you tired?

I can't figure mine out.

I know the adenosyl skips over the methylation pathway. But the methyl contributes to it csi wondered.

The protocol I mentioned earlier from phoenixrising.com has lots of info regarding high doses of B12 as being neuroptotective and healing the brain.

Curious. My mutations are different than yours obviously. But curious

 

My doctor suggested digestive enzymes from Seeking Health as they are basic and powerful with no added fillers etc. Supposed to help with leaky gut and absorption of vitamins and minerals because it helps break down foods better. Well, a quarter capsule and the invertase that breaks down carbs really worked. My blood sugar skyrocketed. Not so good. But the stuff works. Also read that digestive enzymes support healing faster because allowing you to get the nutrients you need. Just stuck again with the darn diabetes.

Let me know on the B12. I have been doing 1/4 of adenosyl in the morning (a3000 much tab under my upper lip so it absorbs better). My serum B12 was high but not sure what that means if Zi still need more B12 for methylation purposes. Hmmm.

[[Sm...]]

Hey Smiff

What did Yaskos suggestions say for you? To do both or just one or the other?

And did you break the dosing up? Throughout the day? Also did the B12 make you tired?

I can't figure mine out.

I know the adenosyl skips over the methylation pathway. But the methyl contributes to it csi wondered.

The protocol I mentioned earlier from phoenixrising.com has lots of info regarding high doses of B12 as being neuroptotective and healing the brain.

Curious. My mutations are different than yours obviously. But curious

 

My doctor suggested digestive enzymes from Seeking Health as they are basic and powerful with no added fillers etc. Supposed to help with leaky gut and absorption of vitamins and minerals because it helps break down foods better. Well, a quarter capsule and the invertase that breaks down carbs really worked. My blood sugar skyrocketed. Not so good. But the stuff works. Also read that digestive enzymes support healing faster because allowing you to get the nutrients you need. Just stuck again with the darn diabetes.

Let me know on the B12. I have been doing 1/4 of adenosyl in the morning (a3000 much tab under my upper lip so it absorbs better). My serum B12 was high but not sure what that means if Zi still need more B12 for methylation purposes. Hmmm.

 

Hey

 

I never got a Yasko treatment plan buuuttt I am supposedly supposed to do both. My COMT is only heterogenous and it isn't the one that reacts badly to methyl groups.

Ok I'll look into the info on high b12. Yea I was reading Yasko on B12 a few weeks ago and she was talking about how parents of autistic children seem to never have an upper limit on B12 'The more the better' she said they say. It is a curious vitamin. We certainly don't know all of what it does. That is true for everything in the body though I think.

 

I loved methyl B12 from the minute I took it. That was the first thing I took and it was like crack early on. I could be having a rising wave of benzo yuck, nibble on some methyl b12 and feel better soon enough. I was taking it spread out through the day - virtually as needed. After a while I tolerated, and only needed, 1mg as a whole sublingual in the morning. Just lately I've started playing with upping that and having more twice daily. We'll see.. I'll let you know. From my perspective though: I would try methylb12 and see how it worked for me (unless you have COMT V).

 

Yea I've got those digestive enzymes. Sometimes my gut hurt a bit from them but they certainly did something. I mostly took them when my gut was going through a very bad stage post SSRI withdrawal. I'm kinda on top of that at that moment. Probiotics - particularly L Plantarum - helped the most. Lately zinc turned things around a bit too. I noticed Seeking Health now has a a multi vitamin for leaky guts with big doses of zinc.

 

Let me know how you go 

 

How are you going on your multi Peace?

 

Cool, did you want to ask anything about any of your pluses or plus/minuses?

[[Co...]]

I'll get back to u later today. I was on my death bed yesterday.

[[je...]]

Just found this thread and trying to read through it. I want to get the genetic test, and see if maybe something is missing nutrition wise that could help me. I will be following all of you, this stuff is so confusing to me, but I really want to have a better understanding.

[[pe...]]

Smiff-

I dropped the multi and felt better than on it. It might be a coincidence but I just don't seem to tolerate much of anything and don't have the energy to go through the trial and error ride. I'm not taking anything for methylation at this point. I just don't feel like I can tolerate it all. I was ok on just hydroxy b12 but was told taking that alone would throw other things off. So, I've got a cupboard of supplements I'm not taking. Frustrating for sure!

 

Wish I could find a sure thing. Still have not.

 

Peace

[[We...]]

Methylation cycle dysfunction a part of the picture of benzo wd?

 

My current pet theory on part of what goes wrong with benzo wd and the cascade of chronic illness. I copied and pasted bits and pieces cause I can't be stuffed fully unpacking everything, nor have I fully collected my thoughts on the matter.

 

Still there is I think something to this being related to severe protracted dysfunction in the methylation cycle.

 

One plus to the theory is it can explain just about every symptom, including its protracted nature. This may be though because methylation cycle dysfunction can be smooshed to cover just about every possible symptom in the body (possibly why it is also appealing to other chronic systemic illnesses like ME, CFS, Fibro and autism). Similarly some of the potential complicators away from, and some of the possible routes toward, healing fits anecdotal reports from benzo wd sufferers - cutting glutamate, gluten, animal proteins, and healing gut. The other plus for it is there are very clear genetic polymorphisms that predispose to methylation cycle dysfunction at various different points (or indeed mean your methylation cycle has never worked very well). That is, some people will have fabulous functioning methylation cycles no matter what and others can easily fall into chronic dysfunction due to their genetics. That makes it appealing in the context of trying to make sense of why some people can walk away from benzo wd untouched and others get hurt badly and longly.

 

I possibly, maybe, have made progress cutting out the neurotoxins, and inflammatory foods, in diet - glutamate, gluten, reduction in protein, including high levels of histamine (histamine is broken down in the methylation cycle so increased histamine can be a sign of a disrupted methylation cycle) and healing the gut through diet as well as the right probiotics (in many cases not any probiotic will do for chronic illness and inflamed individuals).

I came to these things seperately and each improved the situation. Only later did I find out there were protocols for healing the methylation cycle that begin with the same steps.

The next stage following reduction of neurotoxin, histamine and improvement in gut health is to look at the methylation cycle itself. The daily green juice with the methyl folate may prove to be part of this too. I'll only know with some genetic testing.

 

Some history:

 

The idea of a trigger starting a cascade resulting in lowered glutathione levels is not new, by any means. I was taking glutathione injections back in 1999. A couple of docs, including Dr. Yasko, started looking upstream since patients would get a little better taking injections but would relapse as soon as the therapy was stopped. This lead to realizing that the biochemistry was 'broken' and fixing that would allow glutathione levels to rise naturally while reducing toxic loads on the body. Hence, Rich's use of the terminology of a “methylation cycle block”. The idea that dysfunction in the methylation cycle can be part of  a range of chronic body/mind illnesses like Fibro, ME, CFS and Autism is well established in those communities.

 

Dr. Yasko has identified the various stressors that can cause strain on the methylation cycle. These include viruses, bacterial infections, protozoa, chemicals, pesticides, mold, ciguatoxin exposure, head trauma, severe PTSD or psychological stress which all cause increased Nitrous Oxide which if left uncontrolled, initiates a chain reaction that results in chronic illness.

 

First, let's review methylation:

The Methylation Cycle is a biochemical pathway that manages or contributes to a wide range of crucial bodily functions, including:

 

    Detoxification

    Immune function

    Maintaining DNA - the switching on and off of DNA as well as general maintanence

    Energy production

    Mood balancing

    Controlling inflammation

 

All these processes help the body respond to environmental stressors, to detoxify, and to adapt and rebuild. That’s why lowered methylation function may contribute to many, major chronic conditions. Methylation is involved in almost every bodily biochemical reaction, and occurs billions of times every second in our cells.

 

Refer to the diagram below - taken from Dr. Yasko but this doctor labels the cycles with numbers and this is important to look at from a bird's eye view before digging into each cycle/mutations.

All these cycles interlink with each other like Olympic rings and getting one cycle going will drive another. The important cycles know to be major players include blood sugar wobbles, allergy problems, sleep cycles, mitochondrial function, anti-oxidant status, the NO/OONO cycle, thyroid and adrenal hormones cycles and de-toxification.

 

The 5 cycles of the methylation pathway are, from left to right

1. The Urea cycle

2. The Neurotransmitter cycle

3. The Folate cycle

4. The Methionine cycle (erroneously called the methylation cycle)

5. The Transulfuration cycle

 

The Krebs Cycle feeds into the Urea cycle so while it is not a part of the Methylation pathway, it gets sluggish or broken when the methylation is blocked - ergo, fatigue!

 

1. The Urea Cycle deals with an imbalance of ammonia and the creation of free radicals, excess nitrous oxide - ergo, inflammation, toxicity from ammonia, and excess NO leading to smooth muscle issues (gut dysmotility and possible dysautonomia from relaxed blood vessels)

 

2. The Neurotransmitter cycle or BH4 cycleshows an imbalance of seratonin and dopamine - ergo, OCD, mood disorders, sleep issues, bipolar and other psychological issues as well as central nervous system dysfunction.

 

3. The Folate Cycle demonstrates an imbalance or deficiency in folate and B12. This cycle directly affects the 4th cycle, the methionine cycle.

 

4. The Methionine Cycle when out of balance leads to elevated homocysteine (usually) which leads to cardiovascular disease, more inflammation, DNA/RNA changes,

 

5. The Transulfuration Cycle leads to out of balance sulfur, elevated homocysteine, low glutathione levels - ergo, reduced immunity to bacteria/viruses, cardiovascular disease, increased toxicity from excess sulfur.

 

These 5 cycles plus Krebs cycle work as a set of gears - when one is sluggish or broken, the next one is affected and on down the line. This is difficult to address and change.

 

 

 

Description of Dr. Yasko's Phases or Steps:

 

Phase I is preparing the body, correcting the foundation, primarily reducing inflammation caused by excess glutamate and excess ammonia. The first part of Phase I includes dietary changes (primarily, no excitotoxins in order to balance the GABA/glutamate levels (no MSG, glutamate, vitamins ending in “ates”, lowered calcium and protein (in the beginning), no gluten, no casein. Then balancing CBS/Ammonia (lowering sulfur by-products). There are several gene mutations that cause increased ammonia such as MTHFR A1298C as well as CBS). The next step of Phase I is gut health, lowering bacterial/viral loads, organ support to prepare for detoxification, supporting thyroid, Vit D levels, addressing parasites.

 

Step 1 of Phase I:

Removing all toxins possible and reducing toxic loads on the body from food or your environment.

 

The GABA/glutamate balance is usually the first step. GABA is calming and glutamate is stimulating. The brain needs both in the right balance. Glutamate is needed to lay down memories and is important for learning. Excess glutamate levels are toxic to the brain as the excess becomes an excitotoxin. See/read Dr. Russell Blaylock "Excitotoxins: The taste that kills". Read his book and/or view his YouTube seminar. Or google excitotoxins, glutamate, etc.

 

Glutamines comes from food so learn which foods contain it and eliminate or restrict: no MSG, no glutamine supplements, no gluten, no casein, no artificial flavors, (controversy about natural flavors). Unfortunately, this means most processed foods. Gluten free processed foods are not a good substitute. Going grain-free/carb free for a short while may make you feel better anyway so use that time to learn how to bake gluten free. I will post some tips and recipes soon.

 

Reducing calcium (especially for autism) and re-introducing it during Phase III.

Reducing protein (in order to reduce ammonia) by sprinkling Yucca when consuming protein. Adults with ME/CFIDS can't always do this because our carb metabolism is faulty so reduction might be more beneficial then elimination. But some people do feel better by not eating animal protein.

Reducing sulfur until you know if you have the CBS mutations or not.

Consider stopping all supplements unless they are essential until you get your genetics, especially those containing calcium, amino acids, chelated minerals, cysteine and mineral forms ending in "ate" such as glycinate or aspartate which can be excitotoxins.

 

Phase II is first stages of genetic bypass, getting systems working again by helping the body to release toxins – toxic metals which are released when bacteria and viruses are reduced. This Phase is laying the groundwork for Phase III: healing damaged neurons and helping the body to generate new ones. It may include chelation but balancing of essential minerals is an important part of this step, supporting the Krebs cycle, balancing amino acids, increasing methyl groups, controlling urea cycle. This is the longest phase since it addresses each mutation/mutation group one-at-a-time and slowly.

 

Phase III is for nerve growth and myelination - healing of the neurological damage and starts when the body has stabilized, systems are working better due to the genetic bypass where needed. This step usually allows re-introduction of calcium and reduction of the various supplements that are used for detoxification. The supplements that are kept are the ones needed for genetic bypass of mutations and the supplements for supporting nerve growth.

 

YES !!!.

 

The cascade is brutal isn't it. It becomes a vicious cycle, unfortunately benzo's become apart of that cycle.