WORLD'S FIRST REVERSE BENZO DRUG - C/T feels like a Benzo

[Guest [Mi...]]

Hi mindseeker, what kind of anger issues?  Uncontrollable temper?  When you stopped taking it was there any sedation or did you have trouble waking up?  I have been researching all day and it definitely increases glutamate the the AMPA receptor and binds gaba at the NMDA receptor in gabaA site. In theory if one takes it long enough it should leave you in a gabaA rich condition for a long while and hopefully nice landing at baseline, maybe just enough to set things straight for severe paws sufferers.

 

As far as tolerance ending in anger that makes total sense to me.

 

Benzo tolerance leaves many people in fear, panic or anxiety so what's the opposite of that?  Anger?

 

Do you think 

 

Tread carefully with drugs like this. Intense anger as in wanting to really hurt someone. I didn't act on it and it scared me enough to cold turkey the drug.

 

Don't really know what it would do with PAWS folks; however, it's definitely NOT a magic pill. Why it was given to someone like me with a history of hallucinations and mania on SSRI's, I don't know.

 

A part of me thinks there's a placebo effect with the drug just like antidepressants and pain medication (if you're interested in the placebo effect, Dr. Irving Kirsch wrote a great book called "The Emporer's New Drugs," but that's another thread. . . .).

 

BTW, the doctor who prescribed the Provigel to me also upped my Klonopin and put me on Vibrydd (a very powerful SSRI) even though I had a history of psychosis on SSRI's. I lost my job, ended up on medicaid and lost most of my retirement savings as I've tried to dig myself out of this hell hole.

 

So no thanks to magic pills. Just be careful with these drugs. They aren't safe. They simply are not safe.

[[sp...]]

Hi again,

 

The logic of taking modafinil post withdrawal would seem to be similar to taking a sore head and banging it sharply and repeatedly against a brick wall for a while in the hope that when you stop you might feel comparatively "better".

 

Sounds like a clever thing to do.

 

Almost as clever as deciding to balance the old brain with benzodiazepines, or any other random chemical.

 

Just putting this out there...but could the notion that we know enough to "balance" the odd trillion, wildly-interconnected neurones be a trifle flawed?

 

No-one here could claim much success in this area.

 

spart 

[Guest [Mi...]]

I hear ya, spartacus. I'm traumatized to the point that I'll never trust another doctor again. What a world. . . .

[[Wi...]]

Hi again,

 

The logic of taking modafinil post withdrawal would seem to be similar to taking a sore head and banging it sharply and repeatedly against a brick wall for a while in the hope that when you stop you might feel comparatively "better".

 

Sounds like a clever thing to do.

 

Almost as clever as deciding to balance the old brain with benzodiazepines, or any other random chemical.

 

Just putting this out there...but could the notion that we know enough to "balance" the odd trillion, wildly-interconnected neurones be a trifle flawed?

 

No-one here could claim much success in this area.

 

spart 

 

As always, the voice of reason.

 

[[xe...]]

I took modafinal a few times. I thought it was very mild, and much less anxiety producing than amphetamine.

[[Ga...]]

Just watched the you tube video  you posted birdman relating to this drug. It seems  the people taking the drug are touting it as a miracle cognitive enhancer. Funny, when Valium came out it was declared to be a new miracle drug. Years later we now have a clear understanding of its side effects and how difficult it is for some to get off of.

 

I, for one, do not wish to be a big Pharma guinea pig. I have had my share of woes getting off the K. After this hell like experience , I won't be putting anymore brain altering drugs into my body. Ill let neuroplasticity and time heal my brain.

 

Like Valium , when it was introduced, we don't know the long term effects on the brain from sustained use of this drug. No thanks.

 

there are always guinea pigs for new drugs....

 

look aty the ones made for pregnant womn and their babies came out w birth defects. Thamilihide, cant spell it.

 

drug companies scare me now

[[Bi...]]

As one who has had a miserable taper and who at almost a year still experiences glutamate surges constantly causing significant distress I would do just about anything to stop this.  In theory I can see how a benzo/gaba antagonist might encourage the growth of gaba receptors.  My challenge is that the idea of taking a pill that would emulate what has been the single worst experience of my life holds little appeal. 

 

Spartucus,  Thanks for the info. I'm going to check that out.

 

WWWI

 

Not for me either, this expericne sucks any way you cut it. Diving back into it is not my idea of a fun time either BUT what if it really helps?  It's mystery I just may have to visit one day.  Better me then you 

 

I feel like I am on my own, no one out there is going to help me and I've just have never been satisfied playing the waiting game, I need to learn and fight and struggle, it's just in my core nature. Sitting around doing nothing does not come easy to me.

 

It would be wonderful if you found this to be the miracle we all seek but I have seen  every other "miracle" turn out to be fools gold including Flumazenil.  Now it's possible that a lot is dependent how it's administered and clearly there are no studies out there to lead the way so I would never say never but I no longer believe in miracles.  If you end up going down this path, I will still watch with great interest on how it pans out.

 

It's not a miracle since it involves some suffering with insomnia and the like.  Glutamate is no fun, no one knows this better than this group and for this reason I think it has a true shot.  NO PAIN NO GAIN and this one has that element. Taking a FEEL GOOD pill well we know how that turns out but what about a feel bad pill?  This is a new theory in this game topped off with possibly pleasant withdrawals. I'm going to find out however, maybe unless someone can talk me out of it OR if I heal naturally before hand

[[...]]

You go, Lab Rat #1

[[Bi...]]

Hi again,

 

The logic of taking modafinil post withdrawal would seem to be similar to taking a sore head and banging it sharply and repeatedly against a brick wall for a while in the hope that when you stop you might feel comparatively "better".

 

Sounds like a clever thing to do.

 

Almost as clever as deciding to balance the old brain with benzodiazepines, or any other random chemical.

 

Just putting this out there...but could the notion that we know enough to "balance" the odd trillion, wildly-interconnected neurones be a trifle flawed?

 

No-one here could claim much success in this area.

 

spart 

:laugh: :laugh:

[[Bi...]]

You go, Lab Rat #1

 

Bart you will always be the #1 lab rat in my eyes 

 

Hugs 

[[Bi...]]

I took modafinal a few times. I thought it was very mild, and much less anxiety producing than amphetamine.

 

Thanks X for posting. That's the story I get from people who took it. It's generally mild. Not like being hurled into an uncontrollable c/t or anything like that.  Did it at least keep you awake longer?  Any effect you can report?

[[ba...]]

Trying to fix brain chemistry that was screwed up by a drug by introducing more drugs?

 

No thanks.

 

A no vote from me too.

[[ba...]]

I still have this in my cabinet! Grrr. . . .Are you talking about Provigil? It was prescribed to help me wake up after taking anti-psychotics. It's been out there for years.

 

In fact, when the patent was expiring, another "similar" drug called Nuvigil came out. Same thing.

 

Many schizophrenics and bipolars use it. It helped me wake up, but after a while, it stopped working and made me extremely angry. I stopped taking it.

 

Hi mindseeker, what kind of anger issues?  Uncontrollable temper?  When you stopped taking it was there any sedation or did you have trouble waking up?  I have been researching all day and it definitely increases glutamate the the AMPA receptor and binds gaba at the NMDA receptor in gabaA site. In theory if one takes it long enough it should leave you in a gabaA rich condition for a long while and hopefully nice landing at baseline, maybe just enough to set things straight for severe paws sufferers.

 

As far as tolerance ending in anger that makes total sense to me.

 

Benzo tolerance leaves many people in fear, panic or anxiety so what's the opposite of that?  Anger?

 

Do you think 

 

Take it easy Bird.  Really, slow down.  I get where you are coming from because withdrawal ain't easy.  But you have so many questions in such a short period of time.  Anger is problematic for me too.

 

 

Hugs

 

[[...]]

And a no vote from me too.

 

This sounds like the original excitement and optimism behind benzos, then SSRI's, then atypical antipsychotics, then z drugs, and so on.

 

I don't think the solution to any of our problems will ever be found in a pill.

 

Trying to fix brain chemistry that was screwed up by a drug by introducing more drugs?

 

No thanks.

 

A no vote from me too.

[[sp...]]

Hello again.

 

This thread is "exciting". It possibly demonstrates one of the less well-known symptoms of benzodiazepine withdrawal...the bizarre enhancement of the ability to do the same thing over and over again while expecting the outcome to be different.

 

Modafinil has been kicking around since the early Nineties and,

 

"Despite extensive research into its interaction with a large number of neurotransmitter systems its precise mechanism of action remains unclear".

The receptor systems with which it has demonstrated some propensity to mess include, serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, histamine, GABA, glutamate and orexins or hypocretins.

 

The last of these wasn't discovered until the late Nineties when it was thought they had "something to do with wakefulness".

 

Pharmaceutical companies, forward-thinking as ever, aware that their disingenuous marketing of the "mostly harmless" z-drugs to replace vile benzodiazepine sleepers could come unstuck anytime, and aware of the huge market involved(Ambien has 80% of the market in the USA and is in real trouble on the side-effect front), have been working on the new generation of sleeping tablets ever since.

 

The first orexin antagonist, designed to reduce wakefulness, will probably be Suvorexant brought to us very soon, courtesy of the FDA, by Merck .

 

It has of course been extensively tested...on narcoleptic dogs. Which is interesting because narcolepsy was what modafinil(Provigil, Alertec, the clue is in the name Dummy)was first designed to treat.

 

And narcolepsy is in itself interesting. The usual "familial trait, environmentally triggered" and pretty uncommon until recently, until the entirely drug-company manufactured H1N1 "epidemic".

 

Because it turns out that the only real effect of Tamiflu, potential saviour of the Western world in its battle against birds, is to trigger narcolepsy, irreversible disabling narcolepsy, in a significant proportion of the people who take it.

 

These children and adolescents, like the genetically-engineered narcoleptic dogs before them, have necessarily become the unwilling subjects of further enforced experimentation with modafinil...have awoken what interest there was in a weird, little understood drug.

 

Which is where we come in.

 

Really?

 

spart x

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Hello again.

 

This thread is "exciting". It possibly demonstrates one of the less well-known symptoms of benzodiazepine withdrawal...the bizarre enhancement of the ability to do the same thing over and over again while expecting the outcome to be different.

 

Modafinil has been kicking around since the early Nineties and,

 

"Despite extensive research into its interaction with a large number of neurotransmitter systems its precise mechanism of action remains unclear".

The receptor systems with which it has demonstrated some propensity to mess include, serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, histamine, GABA, glutamate and orexins or hypocretins.

 

The last of these wasn't discovered until the late Nineties when it was thought they had "something to do with wakefulness".

 

Pharmaceutical companies, forward-thinking as ever, aware that their disingenuous marketing of the "mostly harmless" z-drugs to replace vile benzodiazepine sleepers could come unstuck anytime, and aware of the huge market involved(Ambien has 80% of the market in the USA and is in real trouble on the side-effect front), have been working on the new generation of sleeping tablets ever since.

 

The first orexin antagonist, designed to reduce wakefulness, will probably be Suvorexant brought to us very soon, courtesy of the FDA, by Merck .

 

It has of course been extensively tested...on narcoleptic dogs. Which is interesting because narcolepsy was what modafinil(Provigil, Alertec, the clue is in the name Dummy)was first designed to treat.

 

And narcolepsy is in itself interesting. The usual "familial trait, environmentally triggered" and pretty uncommon until recently, until the entirely drug-company manufactured H1N1 "epidemic".

 

Because it turns out that the only real effect of Tamiflu, potential saviour of the Western world in its battle against birds, is to trigger narcolepsy, irreversible disabling narcolepsy, in a significant proportion of the people who take it.

 

These children and adolescents, like the genetically-engineered narcoleptic dogs before them, have necessarily become the unwilling subjects of further enforced experimentation with modafinil...have awoken what interest there was in a weird, little understood drug.

 

Which is where we come in.

 

Really?

 

spart x

 

dear Spart, thank you for this competent clarification.

[[Ch...]]

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

 

I'll pass.

 

Chinook 

[[Bi...]]

More data on how it works - Yup, it's an anti-benzo (opposite)

The vigilance promoting drug modafinil increases extracellular glutamate levels ... prevention by local GABAA receptor blockade.

 

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v20/n4/full/1395268a.html

 

 

Got to be careful because not everyone benefits from it.

http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=20717&name=PROVIGIL&PerPage=60&sort=satisfaction&order=1

 

above data from barban, thanks sweetie

 

Long term use of modafinil causes addiction people are saying?  It's interesting that anyone could get addicted to GLUTAMATE.  I often wondered if our brains get used to the glutamate making the jump that much tougher and our brains must be confused as heck by that point in time?  Addiction to glutamate seems ridiculous from my point of view but I guess our brains get used to any imbalances.  It's still a key in the puzzle of way this process is so tough on us.

 

[[Bi...]]

I still have this in my cabinet! Grrr. . . .Are you talking about Provigil? It was prescribed to help me wake up after taking anti-psychotics. It's been out there for years.

 

In fact, when the patent was expiring, another "similar" drug called Nuvigil came out. Same thing.

 

Many schizophrenics and bipolars use it. It helped me wake up, but after a while, it stopped working and made me extremely angry. I stopped taking it.

 

Hi mindseeker, what kind of anger issues?  Uncontrollable temper?  When you stopped taking it was there any sedation or did you have trouble waking up?  I have been researching all day and it definitely increases glutamate the the AMPA receptor and binds gaba at the NMDA receptor in gabaA site. In theory if one takes it long enough it should leave you in a gabaA rich condition for a long while and hopefully nice landing at baseline, maybe just enough to set things straight for severe paws sufferers.

 

As far as tolerance ending in anger that makes total sense to me.

 

Benzo tolerance leaves many people in fear, panic or anxiety so what's the opposite of that?  Anger?

 

Do you think 

 

Take it easy Bird.  Really, slow down.  I get where you are coming from because withdrawal ain't easy.  But you have so many questions in such a short period of time.  Anger is problematic for me too.

 

 

Hugs

 

 

Thanks babyrex,  I will be fine   It's interesting that such a drug even exists and that it's actually addictive in long term use.  Addiction to excess glutamate?  Is that even possible? 

 

The things it exposes are interesting about what we are all going through like:

"by the end of our tapers are we partially addicted to glutamate? Is THAT the cause of paradoxical reactions! GLUTAMATE ADDICTION?  Maybe that's why some people feel lethargy after a jump for a long time?  There is so much we do not know about the complexities. 

 

Addiction to excess glutamate is something I would have NEVER of thought of in a million years but yet here are people in barban's link above addicted to long term use of Provigil. A glutamate enhancing and gabaA suppressing drug. WEIRD! WILD! WOOLY!   an anti-benzo 

 

It's also good to know about and what is does. If we hear about a person taking it we will kind of know what's going on and what they are going through and what they may be in for too, the opposite of what happened to us! 

 

Still short term use could have interesting effects on a benzo brain I'm thinking. A very stable "jumped a year ago" brain.  Still keeping this one in my back pocket

[[Bi...]]

Great info SpartX!  I guess what you are saying is the BEST Sleeper pill is maybe one that keeps you 'twice as awake' during the day so you kind of crash into bed at the end of the day?  That's backwards thinking and very novel!    I love it!

 

Maybe the best fix for an excess of glutamate is even more glutamate?  It's really twisted thinking but not many people have thought of it that way I bet  

 

Could it be that simple? That the fix for too much glutamate is even more glutamate in order to achieve a superior level of homeostasis via higher gabaA levels in play? If the withdrawal from Provigil gives a benzo like tranquility anything is possible

[[sp...]]

Hello Bird,

 

"I guess what you are saying is the BEST Sleeper pill is maybe one that keeps you 'twice as awake' during the day so you kind of crash into bed at the end of the day"

 

The very BEST sleeping tablet is no sleeping tablet at all.

 

" Addiction to excess glutamate?  Is that even possible"

 

In mice, and remember most receptor work is done on mice and their minced up brains, cocaine-seeking behaviour requires both dopamine and glutamate receptor systems to be intact, but only glutamate is indispensable for cocaine dependence.

 

I would have been absolutely staggered to find out that Provigil was not addictive.

 

Take care,

 

spart x

[[Wi...]]

Great info SpartX!  I guess what you are saying is the BEST Sleeper pill is maybe one that keeps you 'twice as awake' during the day so you kind of crash into bed at the end of the day?  That's backwards thinking and very novel!    I love it!

 

Maybe the best fix for an excess of glutamate is even more glutamate?  It's really twisted thinking but not many people have thought of it that way I bet  

 

Could it be that simple? That the fix for too much glutamate is even more glutamate in order to achieve a superior level of homeostasis via higher gabaA levels in play? If the withdrawal from Provigil gives a benzo like tranquility anything is possible

 

If you do a search on here there are multiple conversations about downregulating glutimate receptors with differing substances including coffee, Flumazenil, amphetimines etc.  So at the very least several members here have arrived at a similar hypothesis as you just with different substances. And again, those few post taper individuals that have investigated flumazenil have not reaped any sustained benefit.

[[Bi...]]

Great info SpartX!  I guess what you are saying is the BEST Sleeper pill is maybe one that keeps you 'twice as awake' during the day so you kind of crash into bed at the end of the day?  That's backwards thinking and very novel!    I love it!

 

Maybe the best fix for an excess of glutamate is even more glutamate?  It's really twisted thinking but not many people have thought of it that way I bet  

 

Could it be that simple? That the fix for too much glutamate is even more glutamate in order to achieve a superior level of homeostasis via higher gabaA levels in play? If the withdrawal from Provigil gives a benzo like tranquility anything is possible

 

If you do a search on here there are multiple conversations about downregulating glutimate receptors with differing substances including coffee, Flumazenil, amphetimines etc.  So at the very least several members here have arrived at a similar hypothesis as you just with different substances. And again, those few post taper individuals that have investigated flumazenil have not reaped any sustained benefit.

 

Hi WWWI,  flumazenil is real  "non-choice"  it does not do anything but unseat and dislodge benzo's from receptor sockets and it has no effect all beyond that.  If you gave a normal person a shot of flumazenil it would have the effect of water.  Now coffee and amphetamines have established track records and research data to show they do up-regulate gabaA but it's real indirect in their mode of action, more of a CO-reaction.

 

Modafinil really zero's in right on gabaA and blocks receptors from even torquing CW.  An over dose of this drug would be horrific, something like benzo c/t. This drug is about the most opposite thing to a benzo I can find with the exception of these.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armodafinil

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampakine

 

How to hypothetically use them or if to use them is the purpose of this post.

 

I'll put you down for another "NO" vote I'm assuming   

 

Thanks WWWI 

[[Te...]]

Even if the drug may seem to work for a bit, as it gets deeper into the cns and body as a whole, who knows what havoc it could cause? And by that time addiction could be well underway. 

[[Bi...]]

I think the fact people can get addicted to higher glutamate level's is fascinating.  That just twists my brain in a knot thinking about it,  "glutamate addiction from a pill"?  I'm sure that fact means something very profound as it relates to all of us swimming in this cerebral pool of excess glutamate for so long. It's probably the reason people who slow down to a snails pace at the end of tapers report jumping healed or close to it.  Maybe then end up jumping not addicted to either "ying-yang" (gab-glut) chemical imbalance.

 

Glutamate addiction,,,,,, hmm, very very weird indeed.