ASHTON TAPER / CUT & HOLD SUPPORT

[[Ma...]]

Yes a 50% drop from a significant dosage, especially klonopin, is bad.  Just bad.

 

I figure I will be finished sometime in the next two months.

 

I recently went to the dentist.  It was time for x-rays.  I remember going last year and getting the x-rays.  I hate x-rays.  Anyway, I was a complete wreck at the dentist's office this time last year.  I was shaking, I was crying, I could hardly sit still.  It was the withdrawal.

 

So this time, about three weeks ago, he wanted to take x-rays again.  I wasn't happy about that, but my reaction was infinitely better than the way I reacted last year.  No crying, no shaking, I sat in that chair just fine.  But that incident helped me realize how far I had come from last year.  I have gotten so much better.

[[mr...]]

Congrats noklon!

Let recovery begin!

 

[[Be...]]

I am currently on 0.5 mg lorazepam (Ativan) and plan on using the Ashton method for withdrawal although my doc won't let me switch over to valium first.  So, I'll be cutting a 1/4 tab every two weeks and hope it works.  Wish me luck!

 

Bella

[[mr...]]

I am currently on 0.5 mg lorazepam (Ativan) and plan on using the Ashton method for withdrawal although my doc won't let me switch over to valium first.  So, I'll be cutting a 1/4 tab every two weeks and hope it works.  Wish me luck!

 

Bella

Have you presented the ashton manual to your dr?

 

[[Be...]]

I am currently on 0.5 mg lorazepam (Ativan) and plan on using the Ashton method for withdrawal although my doc won't let me switch over to valium first.  So, I'll be cutting a 1/4 tab every two weeks and hope it works.  Wish me luck!

 

Bella

Have you presented the ashton manual to your dr?

 

 

Mrtmeo --

 

Yes, I printed out the part of the manual that explains the reasons why it is difficult to have a smooth transition with fast acting benzos like Ativan with the suggestion of switching to valium.  I gave the internet sites.  I typed up a valium switch over schedule and taper down schedule (switch half of ativan to 2.5 valium for a week then other half for a week then reduce 1 mg valium every two weeks).  Nurse practitioner said I don't like to prescribe valium -- just ativan, xanax and klonipin.  Then stated that's a long time to be on valium.  Then stated BUT YOU"RE ONLY ON SUCH A SMALL DOSE OF ATIVAN.  Kind of felt like I was being blown off.  Then said well maybe your original symptoms are returning and need to be on the Ativan.  Uggggggggggggg.  So, for now I am stuck with lorazepam and tapering 1/4 tablet every two weeks and see how it goes.

[[...]]

Nice thread Koko  (McMurphy) 

 

Hopefully this thread may be of benefit to many.

 

Yeah... I have to agree with you on the " n-o-t  p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e" TO STABILIZE issue. Most certainly was the case for me. For many of us this is all to common. I would imagine it may be difficult for one who has not experienced this to relate to it. It defies all logic... I can relate... for many of us we simply MUST go forth as we get little if NO RELIEF when we hold. A STEADY SLOW taper is truly is the only way for many of us to get off of poison. Then, what follows more often than not, a LONG, SLOW, recovery...

 

I'm bracing for that, too, Joe: A long, slow recovery after not being able to stabilize for what seems like centuries. I bow to the Benzo God, I really do. BG has whooped my butt more times than I can count and has not let up for many, many months now. If I completely cave though and give in to the fear of the BG then I will get absolutely nowhere. I'll be stuck on this poison forever. And, you know, I'm just NOT going to go there! One of two things might happen. 1) BG will kill me, or 2) I will kill BG. Personally, I'm shooting for the latter.

Another thing that troubles me is when I read over & over & over again  where one gets symptoms and have a hard time believing or accepting that symptoms for the MAJORITY on this forum is only part of the withdrawal process. I am constantly reading "you/I must have tapered to fast because..." or "I got hit with a wave because I...", or " if I had only gone slower..." etc etc.... truth be told is that  these symptoms present to the MAJORITY of users on this forum no matter what rate we go, what supplements we take, what time the sun rises, it is all irrelevant.... It is what it is... ACCEPTANCE IS KEY...

 

You see, what you wrote above is the very reason I wanted to start this thread. I've seen way too many people who have chosen Ashton as their taper method being forced into silent suffering because the majority on this forum have been brainwashed into thinking that their symptoms are their fault for tapering "too fast". No matter what taper method a person chooses for themselves, their symptoms are NOT their fault! And nobody should have to sit shivering in a corner with bees buzzing in their veins and feeling as if they're being electrocuted alive and then, on top of that, have no one to turn to lest they get told that all of those sxs are their fault for tapering too fast!

 

Yes, it is all irrelevant and ACCEPTANCE IS KEY. If a person simply cannot stabilize no matter how hard they try, try, try to find that sweet spot then the only choice left is to push through. Accept the circumstances and push through. And THIS is the place where those people can come and complain their hearts away ... let it all out ... cry, kick, scream, whatever(!) ... and find that they will not be chastised and they will not be told that what they're doing is wrong and that support is just sitting here waiting for them.

 

Unfortunately for many that I've seen whispering in the corners about how there is nowhere here for them to turn, it is too late because they are already off of the benzos. How sad that they had to do it alone!!   

 

I also believe that when one "turtle tapers" & are "symptom free" it is due to the fact that the benzo is still a therapeutic dose & is down regulating GABA as it is engineered to do (even at a low dose). (This is a good thing for those who need to be functional)

 

You know, I am no scientist and by no means am I an authority on the subject, but I think that it's very possible that turtle-tapering can often be at the root of why some that choose that method end up in such a messy situation. I think it's possible that by going so, so, so very slowly, it may be creating a monster, so to speak. Creating an incredibly strong dependence that should never have been there in the first place. Too slow and if you weren't totally addicted to the benzo in the first place, you soon will be!

 

What I have also observed is that many turtle taperers get off of benzo thinking that the worst is over because they are now off of poison only to be hit with an on slough of symptoms. Often this leads to a sense of failure or worse yet re-reinstatement because one then thinks they some how screwed up their taper because............what ever.......(Bart, your are an exception... maybe because you were only initially on POISON for 7 WEEKS... & then a 1 1/2 year taper... OMG...REALLY come on....)

 

Going SUPER SLOW DOES NOT GUARANTEE YOU WILL BE SYMPTOM FREE AFTER YOU ARE DONE & off of the poison. Simply NOT the case for the the MAJORITY of long term dependents on this forum... A PIPE DREAM to say the least... 

 

Like I said above, I'm sure bracing myself for it. I don't believe for one second that when I finish my taper I'm going to be home free. Most especially not after having been on this drug for over 30 years. No, that would be way too easy. ha!

 

So, anyway, DURING this taper I'm going to come here and I am going to COMPLAIN about my symptoms and I am NOT going to let anyone try to convince me that these benzo w/d sxs are my fault! And I hope to see others in the future come here and do the same.

 

 

koko

[[...]]

I am currently on 0.5 mg lorazepam (Ativan) and plan on using the Ashton method for withdrawal although my doc won't let me switch over to valium first.  So, I'll be cutting a 1/4 tab every two weeks and hope it works.  Wish me luck!

 

Bella

 

Bella change your doctor, try to go to psych doctor they may be more open minded. Wish you luck. I stopped listening to the doctors when I know they are wrong. We hire them we can fire them.

D21

[[...]]

Congratulations Koko!!! What great way to start the New Year! I hope you will be posting about your progress, don't for get us.

D21

[[No...]]

 

Mrtmeo --

 

Yes, I printed out the part of the manual that explains the reasons why it is difficult to have a smooth transition with fast acting benzos like Ativan with the suggestion of switching to valium.  I gave the internet sites.  I typed up a valium switch over schedule and taper down schedule (switch half of ativan to 2.5 valium for a week then other half for a week then reduce 1 mg valium every two weeks).  Nurse practitioner said I don't like to prescribe valium -- just ativan, xanax and klonipin.  Then stated that's a long time to be on valium.  Then stated BUT YOU"RE ONLY ON SUCH A SMALL DOSE OF ATIVAN.  Kind of felt like I was being blown off.  Then said well maybe your original symptoms are returning and need to be on the Ativan.  Uggggggggggggg.  So, for now I am stuck with lorazepam and tapering 1/4 tablet every two weeks and see how it goes.

 

 

Welcome to the thread, Bella, and congrats on your progress so far. 

 

My doctor didn't want to prescribe Valium, either (though she was fine prescribing Klonopin for eternity). I'm not sure why this is true, but I'm guessing it's based on Valium's reputation. So much for a rational approach. 

 

If your doctor won't cooperate and you can't find a new one, know that plenty of people taper directly off of their original benzo, and it looks like you're well on your way to being free. Good luck and we're here to support you through it. 

 

 

 

Yes, it is all irrelevant and ACCEPTANCE IS KEY. If a person simply cannot stabilize no matter how hard they try, try, try to find that sweet spot then the only choice left is to push through. Accept the circumstances and push through. And THIS is the place where those people can come and complain their hearts away ... let it all out ... cry, kick, scream, whatever(!) ... and find that they will not be chastised and they will not be told that what they're doing is wrong and that support is just sitting here waiting for them.

 

Unfortunately for many that I've seen whispering in the corners about how there is nowhere here for them to turn, it is too late because they are already off of the benzos. How sad that they had to do it alone!!   

 

I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to post and didn't because I knew I'd be told to up-dose or hold or slow down. And doing any of those things would have been a disaster for me. I needed to be off the drug years ago. More years on it? WRONG answer.

 

[[Be...]]

I am currently on 0.5 mg lorazepam (Ativan) and plan on using the Ashton method for withdrawal although my doc won't let me switch over to valium first.  So, I'll be cutting a 1/4 tab every two weeks and hope it works.  Wish me luck!

 

Bella

 

Bella change your doctor, try to go to psych doctor they may be more open minded. Wish you luck. I stopped listening to the doctors when I know they are wrong. We hire them we can fire them.

D21

 

Hi D21 --

 

The nurse practitioner I happened to see that day since my psych doc was unavailable also checked with another psych doctor who suggested just a slower withdraw from the Ativan instead of a switch to valium. 

[[mr...]]

I am currently on 0.5 mg lorazepam (Ativan) and plan on using the Ashton method for withdrawal although my doc won't let me switch over to valium first.  So, I'll be cutting a 1/4 tab every two weeks and hope it works.  Wish me luck!

 

Bella

Have you presented the ashton manual to your dr?

 

 

Mrtmeo --

 

Yes, I printed out the part of the manual that explains the reasons why it is difficult to have a smooth transition with fast acting benzos like Ativan with the suggestion of switching to valium.  I gave the internet sites.  I typed up a valium switch over schedule and taper down schedule (switch half of ativan to 2.5 valium for a week then other half for a week then reduce 1 mg valium every two weeks).  Nurse practitioner said I don't like to prescribe valium -- just ativan, xanax and klonipin.  Then stated that's a long time to be on valium.  Then stated BUT YOU"RE ONLY ON SUCH A SMALL DOSE OF ATIVAN.  Kind of felt like I was being blown off.  Then said well maybe your original symptoms are returning and need to be on the Ativan.  Uggggggggggggg.  So, for now I am stuck with lorazepam and tapering 1/4 tablet every two weeks and see how it goes.

Hi Bella,

This mindset is all too common in the mainstream medical fields and they have no clue about how exteme w/d is with fast acting benzos.

Due to valium's bad history and that it is the oldest of the benzo's, is why they don't like to prescribe it.

It is best to find a benzo wise psych dr.

Here is a list.

http://www.benzodocs.com/

 

Coming off of a fast acting benzo very slowly is possible and some have successfully withdrawn and recovered, but I think they used titration.

Valium is easier to get in liquid form.

 

[[...]]

Hi D21 --

 

The nurse practitioner I happened to see that day since my psych doc was unavailable also checked with another psych doctor who suggested just a slower withdraw from the Ativan instead of a switch to valium. 

 

Hi Bella,

 

Your situation is sadly an all too familiar one. I'm so sorry that you're at the mercy of your doctor like that.   If there is no way that you can find a doctor to prescribe Valium and help you with a crossover then can you ask your current pdoc (who is so insistent that you stay on Ativan) to prescribe the Ativan in liquid form?

 

Welcome to the thread, btw. It's nice to meet you. 

 

 

koko

 

 

[[...]]

Congratulations Koko!!! What great way to start the New Year! I hope you will be posting about your progress, don't for get us.

D21

 

Oh, not me, D21. It's NoKlonoNo that's taking her last dose today. She's the one who has fought the good fight and tonight she will win! 

 

 

 

koko

[[Br...]]

Hello Koko.  I read your post about not being able to get stable.  (In such a case you didn't welcome any advice about tapering more slowly.)

 

Sometimes benzos cause adverse side effects and these side effects will occur, perhaps in a fluctuating manner, whilst benzos are being taken.  In this case the sooner you get off benzos the quicker you will feel better.

 

However in this situation you can still get withdrawal symptoms from tapering too quickly, so the rate of taper can become a delicate balancing act.

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

Hi Mairin33,

 

How are you cutting your Ativan? Any words of wisdom for Bella?

 

 

I'm so sorry that I haven't had a chance to talk with you yet. You have a great attitude and everything you have written here has really resonated with me. But, as you can see, I've been pretty busy trying to hold up the castle walls. Thank you for being here to help! Hopefully that's a thing of the past now and we can get down to what's really important: supporting each other through this.

 

I'm really looking forward to getting to know you better. Do you know that by word of mouth I have been told that your posts are awesome and that I should read them for inspiration? Pretty cool to find that out, huh? I haven't had a chance to do that yet but I'll get around to it some day, I'm sure.

 

You're only a couple of months away. Yay for you!    If all goes as planned on my end, I should be done by mid-May. But like NoNo says, ~nothing~ about benzo withdrawal makes sense so I'm reserving that wiggle room if I find myself in need.

 

 

koko

[[...]]

Hello Koko.  I read your post about not being able to get stable.  (In such a case you didn't welcome any advice about tapering more slowly.)

 

Sometimes benzos cause adverse side effects and these side effects will occur, perhaps in a fluctuating manner, whilst benzos are being taken.  In this case the sooner you get off benzos the quicker you will feel better.

 

However in this situation you can still get withdrawal symptoms from tapering too quickly, so the rate of taper can become a delicate balancing act.

 

Hi Braban,

 

Oh, gosh, I've gone more slowly. More fastly. More everything-ly. Nothing...absolutely nothing worked. I used to stabilize but then the day came when it just didn't happen anymore. If you read my intro post again, you'll see that I gave everything a try. That is why I haven't welcomed advice about tapering more slowly. I've already been through the asking for advice stage and trying every bit of advice that's been offered. Been there, done that, in other words. Didn't work. What I'm doing now is working better for me than anything else I have tried, so onward I go.....

 

I don't know if I'm getting adverse side-effects or not. To some people it's very clear that they are, and there is no question in their mind that that is what is happening to them. To others, it is not so clear. I belong in the 2nd group.

 

As far as the balancing act goes, I'm through with that fruitless search. If I hadn't wasted so much of my taper time searching and searching for that delicate balance, I'd be off the benzos by now and have been done with it.

 

I hope you're doing well, Braban. Happy New Year to you! 

 

 

koko

 

 

 

[[Vr...]]

 

You know, I am no scientist and by no means am I an authority on the subject, but I think that it's very possible that turtle-tapering can often be at the root of why some that choose that method end up in such a messy situation. I think it's possible that by going so, so, so very slowly, it may be creating a monster, so to speak. Creating an incredibly strong dependence that should never have been there in the first place. Too slow and if you weren't totally addicted to the benzo in the first place, you soon will be!

 

koko

 

Well put!  We keep hearing that anything other than a microtaper leads to a protracted withdrawal, yet isn't it just as likely that a protracted taper leads to protracted withdrawal?  Could Protracted Taper Syndrome lead to dependence that, like you say, "should never have been there in the first place"?

 

Ibble

[[Ma...]]

HI Bella,

 

I would not despair about not being able to get Valium.    One thing I disagree with about the Ashton Method is her insistence on having people cross to valium.  It's really not necessary to do that.  Ashton was dealing with people who had already tried and failed to get off their benzos.  Valium has its own qualities that can be difficult to work with.  Valium contains many metabolites which stay in the body for about a month.  Ativan does not stay in the body like that, and personally, I think Ativan is better to taper in that way.  Because, once you cut, that cut will be out of your system in about 5 days.  Valium accumulates in the body.  Ativan does not.

 

The main reason Ashton suggested valium was specifically for it's long lastingness and also because it comes in smaller dose pills which are easier to cut.  It is supposed to take away interdose withdrawal problems, BUT, if interdose withdrawal is not a problem for you, you really don't need to switch to valium.  Just breaking your Ativan dose up into 3x or 4x a day is probably sufficient to ward off interdose withdrawal.  Worked for me.

 

People were warning me about interdose withdrawal back when I was on 6 mgs, and I kept expecting that to happen but it never did.  I'd say Valium is a good idea for people with severe interdose problems.  Taking ativan 4x a day is really no big deal.  Just split the dose into four, that's all.  Takes 15 seconds to take your dose.  It should really be prescribed that way, but the reason that it is not, is because studies have been done that show people are very adverse to taking pills multiple times a day.  Compliance falls off when the prescription is more than twice a day. 

 

I'd say that, unless a person has been on a high dose for a long time, long time meaning more than a year, a short term user does not normally need to taper a very long time.  Time is on your side.  Also age has something to do with this. Older people are going to have a harder time with this because their bodies are not as regenerative as a younger person's.  Mr. Mateo's mother is elderly and also has emphysema.  That is going to complicate the situation hugely.  You cannot compare someone like that to someone who is not elderly.  You have to take into account the age and health of the person.

 

Thanks for saying that Koko, it makes me glad to know that something I said might have helped someone.  We will make it through this 

[[li...]]

[move][shadow=red,left][glow=red,2,300]CONGRATS NOKLONONO... YOU DID IT! BENZO FREE 2014 WOO HOO...[/glow][/shadow][/move]

 

A great big welcome to everyone on this thread! 

 

Hey Bella- yeah... if at all possible Valium is a  last resort. Only if all else fails. If you have  inter dose issues their are alternate ways to taper off of Ativan.. Just ask & I can tell you how. NO worries 

 

 

You know, I am no scientist and by no means am I an authority on the subject, but I think that it's very possible that turtle-tapering can often be at the root of why some that choose that method end up in such a messy situation. I think it's possible that by going so, so, so very slowly, it may be creating a monster, so to speak. Creating an incredibly strong dependence that should never have been there in the first place. Too slow and if you weren't totally addicted to the benzo in the first place, you soon will be!

 

koko

 

Well put!  We keep hearing that anything other than a microtaper leads to a protracted withdrawal, yet isn't it just as likely that a protracted taper leads to protracted withdrawal?  Could Protracted Taper Syndrome lead to dependence that, like you say, "should never have been there in the first place"?

 

Ibble

 

Hi Ibble!

 

Protracted Taper Syndrome 

This is a good one...    P. T. S.  ... how original...

 

[move][shadow=blue,left][glow=blue,2,300]HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL OF MY BUDDIES! I WISH SMOOOTH TAPERING & FAST HEALING FOR ALL ...[/glow][/shadow][/move]

[[Be...]]

Ive held my last cut over a month due to the holidays, I dunno why, Im not doing anything...

I forgot my dose the other night and slept ALL night...I think I could probably jump, already should have probably, but I'll start my final cutting day after tomorrow...

[[...]]

WiFi is bad where I am ... Cell phones suck unless, of course, you're stranded high up on a glacial mountain and need somebody to find u ... 

 

Just wanted to wish everyone a very, very Happy New Year 2014. May it be the greatest year of your life thus far!!

 

 

love,

 

koko 

[[Be...]]

[[pi...]]

I have a friend who wears the same size shoe as I do.  I was attending a wedding and didn't have time to shop for shoes so my friend said to come over and look at hers for a possibility. They were really nice shoes but I could not wear a single one.  She is a lucky person to be able to wear pointy toes and high heels.  My fat toes would not fit into her shoes.

 

Tapering is similar to that, we might be on the same medication and the same dose, yet each might need to adopt a different taper plan.  It does not matter, the important thing is that the road leads to the same place, being benzo free.

 

There will always be debate about differing taper plans and that is fine. However, I find calling a plan "protracted taper" a rude and unfriendly description.  How is this helpful to anyone?  Lets leave the ridicule and the debasing off the forum and discuss what works for us and let others find their own path. 

 

pianogirl

[[La...]]

Congratulations on jumping NoKlonoNo! Hope your landing is just wonderful.

[[No...]]

Thanks so much for the well wishes. 

 

This will be the first day in a loooong time that I haven't taken a benzo. I still find it--all of it--hard to believe.

 

I hope everyone had a Happy New Year's celebration. Mine was unforgettable!