ASHTON TAPER / CUT & HOLD SUPPORT

[[...]]

I'm three doses away from jumping! 

 

Hi NoNo,

 

In what increments are you going to be dropping? How are you doing on the 0.5mgs?

 

That's great news to hear that the pee problems are getting better. After having two kids I'm pretty darn sure I'll be following in your footsteps!

 

My favorite quote: "benzo withdrawal is an asshole". I still want to put that in my signature! lol

 

 

koko

[[...]]

Of course I don't mean that everyone will be able to taper quicker using a daily method, but from my experience at reading a lot of posts from people who are following the cut and hold method on the lower doses, most don't seem to be able to cut as frequently or in the amount that Dr Ashton suggests. TBH, I don't know of anyone who has successfully been able to go from 5mg to 4mg in just 2 weeks, without experiencing a lot of s/x.

 

Hi Diaz-Pam,

 

The above is exactly why I started this support thread. There are many, many buddies that have, indeed, been able to drop in 1mg increments. They're just afraid to talk/moan/groan about their symptoms for fear of being chastised for cutting "too fast", as I pointed out in the intro post for this thread.

 

I've been PM'd many, many times by buddies who are dropping 1mg per week who are under the 10mg mark. I've watched other buddies from a distance drop by 1mg at a time when under 5mgs. Most of those buddies would then start dropping either in 0.5mg increments or 0.25mg increments after that point in time. I've witnessed plenty of buddies jump off from either 1mg or 0.5mg, as well.

 

The question is, why aren't these buddies more visible? My personal answer to that question is that they just don't want to hear it, you know? They're tired and weary from tapering and the last thing they need to hear is that they're going too fast, or too slow, or that they need to updose, or titrate, or microtaper, or....  you get what I mean. They're just plain tired of being told that what they're doing is wrong and is not the "right" thing to do.

 

Just using myself as an example, I know that when I was at 5mg, and I did an initial cut of 0.25mg, I still wasn't stable after 2 weeks.  So let's assume that I would have been stable enough to cut after 3 weeks (and that's not guaranteed), and was also able to do similar cuts down to 4mg, that would have taken me 12 weeks, but if you have a look at my signature, it took me just 7.5 weeks to get to 4mg by using a daily method. I was also able to do it fairly symptom free, where if I had followed the 3 weekly cuts I would have suffered a great deal for most of that time before I stabilised.

 

Again, in my original post, I pointed out that stabilization, in many cases, is just  n-o-t  p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e. It was for me for a while during my taper but once I hit a certain point it simply disappeared. Just like that ... *poof!...gone!* ... never to be felt again.

 

We're not talking ever being able to stabilize here. And we're not talking about being symptom-free or even fairly symptom-free. We're talking survival. Survival and getting off of this stuff as soon as is humanly possible. I loathe to type the word "we" because, obviously, I cannot speak for anyone else. What I mean is "I" and "I'm", etc.. But judging by PMs and such, I know there are plenty aside from myself who feel the same way.

 

Again, it's not about stabilization or about being symptom-free. It is about pushing my (our) limits in order to get off this drug so that, once and for all, I (we) can finally heal. 

 

Everyone is different and everyone will have the method that they prefer. The only point I'm trying to really make is that a daily taper is NOT a slow taper or a micro-taper. That's all.  Like you, I have no interest in percentages either because I think they just confuse the tapering process too much. The bottom line is that you taper according to your symptoms, whether that be a cut and hold taper or a daily taper.

 

Of course. If a person totally wigs out then their taper is too fast. So, yes, taper according to symptoms. But to what degree are our symptoms too much for us to tolerate? That can only be answered on an individual basis and each one of us has our own line that we draw in the sand during this process. Absolutely. It's just that some people can extend their lines a bit further than others.

 

Obviously, it's much more complicated than that but, again, that is not the point of this support thread. The point of this thread is to provide a safe haven for those of us who chose to taper as close to the Ashton protocol as possible. 

 

btw - I just noticed that you are still on 10.5mg valium. I hope you can continue to use the cut and hold method, but I talk everyday with a lot of people on the lower doses of valium and (without exception) all of them have had to switch to a daily taper when their dose got somewhere between 5-10mg.

 

If what you're trying to say is, "You may end up eating crow," you might very well be right. But then again, you might not. Only time will tell. Nobody here is superhuman. And nobody can say with any certainty what the future holds. But if there is one thing that is a certainty in my mind, it is that every single one of us on this forum is herculean in mind, body, and spirit. Of that I am entirely and genuinely convinced.

 

 

koko

[[...]]

I agree with diaz because I had my mom following the ashton method she got so bad, I had to updose her from 0 - 2.5mg.

I also, did the cut and hold method and symptoms were just getting bad for more days after a cut.

She just would't stabilize.

Then, I was convinced to try the daily taper and it worked great.

She would have a symptom here and there, but not to the degree it was with the cut and hold.

She has reduced very quickly compared to the cut and hold method.

 

I wish I would have started her on the daily taper from the start and she might have done better and off sooner.

 

Hi mrtmeo,

 

I'm glad that your mother is doing well on a daily taper. I'm sorry that the cut & hold didn't work for her. She has my best wishes and she couldn't have a better son than you. You're an amazing person to be caring for her as you are and I truly admire you for that.

 

I'm also glad that you have many people supporting you and your mother in the Valium thread. That is your safe haven and your place of comfort where you can agree with Diaz-Pam and receive the comfort that you must need very badly right now. This can't be easy for you. Not by a long shot.

 

all my best wishes to you and your mom, now and always,

 

koko

[[Di...]]

I wasn't actually going to post on this thread again because I didn't want to intrude on this being a support thread for those who are following the cut and hold method, but it was only because I happened to notice your question and I thought I should reply.

 

My only reason for posting in the first place was to clear up the misperception of "micro-tapers" and "slow tapers", and to explain how they are not actually “daily tapers” which is what the majority of people (who aren’t following a cut and hold taper) are doing.

 

No I definitely didn't mean that you might end up "eating crow". I was simply pointing out that you really don't know what tapering off a low dose will be like yet. I certainly hope you are able to continue cutting the way you are and that you have no problems at all.

 

I'm sure there are people who continue to use Ashton's Method on the low doses, but all the people that I see asking for help on the valium support thread, always end up switching to a daily taper and doing much better, but then I obviously don't know about the people who don't ask for help, or who don’t have any problems or who are quite happy to continue using the cut and hold taper do I? However, I also get many many PMs from people, and the PMs I get are vastly different to the PMs you get. So what does that tell us? Nothing really, except that everyone is different and have different tapering requirements.

 

Those who only want to get through their taper and not worry about stabilisation will no doubt do better with a cut and hold taper. However, there are many people here whose main priority is to still maintain a near normal lifestyle because they have to work or they have a family to care for etc. For those people, minimal symptoms will always be top priority. I do also wonder though just how long the people who taper more quickly and jump from say 1mg take to really heal. Fast tapers and jumping early often ends up being a false economy, but that, like everything else, is an individual choice.

 

Having said all that, I do strongly disagree with you though when you said that those who are cutting by say 1mg increments are chastised. I have personally never seen that. If someone is having problems and they are asking for help, they are perhaps encouraged to try a daily taper simply to see if that sorts out their problems, but if someone is happily following the Ashton or cut and hold method, I have NEVER seen anyone “chastise” them or try to influence them to change, unless there is some individual poster who is not one of our more supportive/helpful posters, and who is just out to cause a drama. The majority of people here only want to offer support and advice, and will support whatever tapering method someone chooses.

 

Now, I don’t plan on posting on this thread again. If anyone has any further comments to make about what I have said I would prefer you PM me, because it has never been my intention to create any debate about anything. I was only clearing up a misperception. I fully support everyone’s right to choose the method they feel is right for them. I always have and I always will.

 

[[No...]]

I'm three doses away from jumping! 

 

Hi NoNo,

 

In what increments are you going to be dropping? How are you doing on the 0.5mgs?

 

That's great news to hear that the pee problems are getting better. After having two kids I'm pretty darn sure I'll be following in your footsteps!

 

My favorite quote: "benzo withdrawal is an asshole". I still want to put that in my signature! lol

 

 

koko

 

I take my last .5mg dose on New Year's Eve. (I meant that I had, literally, three more doses to choke down before jumping--two, now!).

 

So, I'm going with Ashton: "Take the plunge when you reach 0.5mg daily; full recovery cannot begin until you have got off your tablets completely."  Yes, ma'am!

 

As far as how I'm doing ... I'm a lot better at .5 than I was at 15 or 10 or 5. The lower I go, the better I feel. Symptoms come and go. I was a little worried about the holidays, but it was all for naught. I kept cutting and had fun, anyway. 

 

I've noticed plenty of posts by people who have felt better as they've gotten lower in dosage, by the way. I think I just notice them more because that's how it's worked for me, and because people don't tend to post about symptoms they're not having, lol. I hope this is how it works for you, too!

 

 

[[...]]

Benzy, I can't say that you didn't warn me.    Good luck on that blood test. I'll keep an eye out for your results.

 

NoNo, I am so excited for you, I could scream. You go, girl! 

 

 

Diaz-Pam, I'm pretty sure you've done a great job in scaring away anyone / everyone who might have otherwise been considering posting here. I'll be shocked if this thread survives another day after the invasion. Thank you so very much for your support and for your input.

 

 

 

"But I tried, didn't I? G***amnit, at least I did that."

-- R.P. McMurphy

 

 

 

koko

 

[[...]]

I have been reading and participating in this thread. Yes some people do titration and some do Ashton taper, some cut too fast. I was one of them end up in the ER, some are so terrified or have to be fully functional cut too slow. We are all struggling with this monster. I feel like some posts have turned into a competition to which taper is better. We should be here to support each other and not judge, even if we don't agree with the taper method someone is practicing. After all who are we to have all the answers.

Think about it, nobody else understands us the way buddies here do. So we only have each other!!!!

[[Vr...]]

 

I've been PM'd many, many times by buddies who are dropping 1mg per week who are under the 10mg mark. I've watched other buddies from a distance drop by 1mg at a time when under 5mgs. Most of those buddies would then start dropping either in 0.5mg increments or 0.25mg increments after that point in time. I've witnessed plenty of buddies jump off from either 1mg or 0.5mg, as well.

 

The question is, why aren't these buddies more visible? My personal answer to that question is that they just don't want to hear it, you know? They're tired and weary from tapering and the last thing they need to hear is that they're going too fast, or too slow, or that they need to updose, or titrate, or microtaper, or....  you get what I mean. They're just plain tired of being told that what they're doing is wrong and is not the "right" thing to do.

 

Koko,

 

I went faster than Ashton at first and slower towards the end but she was always my guide.  What she wrote outside the tables about fears and withdrawal symptoms reassured me and helped me keep the taper in perspective.  The taper is just a tool, a means to an end - getting off a drug - not the goal.

 

Yet I was often chastised for not doing a perfect taper, told, more than once, to updose, to go back and do it right when I went too fast.  And if I didn't follow the sacred law of the micro or daily taper, I was frequently cursed with, "You'll pay for it later with protracted withdrawal syndrome", this often, from people still tapering.

 

Avoiding even the hint of symptoms shouldn't hijack the taper and become the guiding purpose.  Getting off the drug and tapering comfortably should be the priority, not perfecting the Holy Taper.  Imagine being told after I had dropped 5Mg's of Librium in 2 weeks to updose 5Mg's because I had some sxs along the way?  Then forever cursed when I didn't. 

 

Later, when I reinstated after my first taper, I got plenty of "I told you so".s, that I had failed, and how "disappointed" they were in me.  The second taper was successful and I'm now 11 months off with no sxs since month 4 but, of course, I'm still under the curse of the protracted withdrawal syndrome until I'm at least 18 months free.  (their form of original sin I guess)

 

In their book all symptoms, every imaginable ache and pain, are withdrawal related so I can't go back to being depressed and anxious after I get off the drug without fulfilling their prophecy.  Yeah, you still have problems.  You went too fast.  You were wrong, we were right....they will crow.  Again, all from people still tapering.  Funny that they are the loudest.

 

The taper should just be something we do and forget about.  Like umpires in baseball, quiet and behind the scenes - well, maybe that was a bad example, but you get the point.  The taper shouldn't be watched, worried over, or even thought about that much.  Just take the scheduled dose and forget about it. 

 

In AA, (I'm sober 25 months) I'd hear sayings about letting go, giving up the wheel, and letting someone else do the driving.  Afterall, we drove it into a ditch or blind alley and don't have the wherewithal to get ourselves out - I mean, look where our driving got us?  Surrendering the wheel doesn't have to be to a "higher power", just anything that gets us out of the driver's seat.  We already micromanaged ourselves into a mess with our continuous fretting and frequent adjustments. 

 

If I'm dizzy I shouldn't rush to judgment that I need to "dose correct", but instead remember that I'm often dizzy first thing in the morning.  If my skin is dry or I get a pimple, I shouldn't blame it on benzo wd but realize, oh right, it's winter and this always happens.  Before I ever took a benzo I felt ill half the time yet I caught myself, again and again, during my taper blaming my sxs on benzo wd.  This is an easy trap to fall into.

 

Koko, thanks for giving us a voice.  I'm one of those tired and weary, people who's kept quiet for several months because I didn't want to be beat down again.  I really appreciate how well you speak for many of us.  I sure miss that uber-focus clarity. 

 

Ibble

 

 

 

 

[[No...]]

 

 

Diaz-Pam, I'm pretty sure you've done a great job in scaring away anyone / everyone who might have otherwise been considering posting here. I'll be shocked if this thread survives another day after the invasion.

 

 

Yeah, probably. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.

 

It's annoying, though. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"But I tried, didn't I? G***amnit, at least I did that."

-- R.P. McMurphy

 

 

 

koko

 

 

Is this the part where I smother you to death with a pillow? 

 

 

 

[[La...]]

 

I've been PM'd many, many times by buddies who are dropping 1mg per week who are under the 10mg mark. I've watched other buddies from a distance drop by 1mg at a time when under 5mgs. Most of those buddies would then start dropping either in 0.5mg increments or 0.25mg increments after that point in time. I've witnessed plenty of buddies jump off from either 1mg or 0.5mg, as well.

 

The question is, why aren't these buddies more visible? My personal answer to that question is that they just don't want to hear it, you know? They're tired and weary from tapering and the last thing they need to hear is that they're going too fast, or too slow, or that they need to updose, or titrate, or microtaper, or....  you get what I mean. They're just plain tired of being told that what they're doing is wrong and is not the "right" thing to do.

 

Koko,

 

I went faster than Ashton at first and slower towards the end but she was always my guide.  What she wrote outside the tables about fears and withdrawal symptoms reassured me and helped me keep the taper in perspective.  The taper is just a tool, a means to an end - getting off a drug - not the goal.

 

Yet I was often chastised for not doing a perfect taper, told, more than once, to updose, to go back and do it right when I went too fast.  And if I didn't follow the sacred law of the micro or daily taper, I was frequently cursed with, "You'll pay for it later with protracted withdrawal syndrome", this often, from people still tapering.

 

Avoiding even the hint of symptoms shouldn't hijack the taper and become the guiding purpose.  Getting off the drug and tapering comfortably should be the priority, not perfecting the Holy Taper.  Imagine being told after I had dropped 5Mg's of Librium in 2 weeks to updose 5Mg's because I had some sxs along the way?  Then forever cursed when I didn't. 

 

Later, when I reinstated after my first taper, I got plenty of "I told you so".s, that I had failed, and how "disappointed" they were in me.  The second taper was successful and I'm now 11 months off with no sxs since month 4 but, of course, I'm still under the curse of the protracted withdrawal syndrome until I'm at least 18 months free.  (their form of original sin I guess)

 

In their book all symptoms, every imaginable ache and pain, are withdrawal related so I can't go back to being depressed and anxious after I get off the drug without fulfilling their prophecy.  Yeah, you still have problems.  You went too fast.  You were wrong, we were right....they will crow.  Again, all from people still tapering.  Funny that they are the loudest.

 

The taper should just be something we do and forget about.  Like umpires in baseball, quiet and behind the scenes - well, maybe that was a bad example, but you get the point.  The taper shouldn't be watched, worried over, or even thought about that much.  Just take the scheduled dose and forget about it. 

 

In AA, (I'm sober 25 months) I'd hear sayings about letting go, giving up the wheel, and letting someone else do the driving.  Afterall, we drove it into a ditch or blind alley and don't have the wherewithal to get ourselves out - I mean, look where our driving got us?  Surrendering the wheel doesn't have to be to a "higher power", just anything that gets us out of the driver's seat.  We already micromanaged ourselves into a mess with our continuous fretting and frequent adjustments. 

 

If I'm dizzy I shouldn't rush to judgment that I need to "dose correct", but instead remember that I'm often dizzy first thing in the morning.  If my skin is dry or I get a pimple, I shouldn't blame it on benzo wd but realize, oh right, it's winter and this always happens.  Before I ever took a benzo I felt ill half the time yet I caught myself, again and again, during my taper blaming my sxs on benzo wd.  This is an easy trap to fall into.

 

Koko, thanks for giving us a voice.  I'm one of those tired and weary, people who's kept quiet for several months because I didn't want to be beat down again.  I really appreciate how well you speak for many of us.  I sure miss that uber-focus clarity. 

 

Ibble

 

 

 

 

 

Right on brother. 

[[Ma...]]

It would be nice if the microtaperers could maybe go hang out on the microtaperer thread and not come to the Aston support thread (which is a wonderful idea for a thread, thank you).

 

I don't know about you, but I have never felt the need to go over the microtaperer thread, because, um....I'm not microtapering. 

 

Whenever someone asks about microtapering, I say something like "Why don't you check out the microtapering board?"  Because, I cannot help them.  I somehow don't feel the need to go over there and bug them about what they are doing.

[[or...]]

Hi all.

 

This is a good idea for a thread. Much needed.

 

Although I am in the "other camp" (boy I hate it that we now have an us vs them stance toward tapering methods) I come here to read your comments, which I find brave and useful.

 

I especially appreciated vribble's comments about not attributing every little hiccup and sneeze to the s/x of our taper. For instance I have a monster headache and feel crappy . . . but it is not my taper. I have a virus.

 

I will keep vribble's comments in the forefront of my mind as  so often attribute anything going wrong to a s/x. Thank you vribble.

Let's all be well . . . and supportive of each other no matter what our chosen methods. We all have one goal -- to be off our drug.

 

Mairin33 I won't post here anymore. Just wanted to let you all know that I appreciated vribble's comments.

 

Okatz

[[bu...]]

Hi everyone

Did any of you have blood glucose elevation (not diabetic) during taper?

D21

 

Mine has dropped down (normalized(..

[[mr...]]

I agree with diaz because I had my mom following the ashton method she got so bad, I had to updose her from 0 - 2.5mg.

I also, did the cut and hold method and symptoms were just getting bad for more days after a cut.

She just would't stabilize.

Then, I was convinced to try the daily taper and it worked great.

She would have a symptom here and there, but not to the degree it was with the cut and hold.

She has reduced very quickly compared to the cut and hold method.

 

I wish I would have started her on the daily taper from the start and she might have done better and off sooner.

 

Hi mrtmeo,

 

I'm glad that your mother is doing well on a daily taper. I'm sorry that the cut & hold didn't work for her. She has my best wishes and she couldn't have a better son than you. You're an amazing person to be caring for her as you are and I truly admire you for that.

 

I'm also glad that you have many people supporting you and your mother in the Valium thread. That is your safe haven and your place of comfort where you can agree with Diaz-Pam and receive the comfort that you must need very badly right now. This can't be easy for you. Not by a long shot.

 

all my best wishes to you and your mom, now and always,

 

koko

 

Hi koko,

I guess I never realized that I was causing a debate and maybe shouldn't have posted in this forum.

Everyone has their reasons for the type of taper they choose or are forced into and need support for their taper method.

However, I do feel it necessary for everyone to have an informed choice, meaning if they are looking to make a choice, they can find and determine which method is best for them based on all the info.

Sorry, I didn't mean to start a debate, just share experiences.

[[...]]

Ibble,

 

That was an amazing post. I'm thrilled for you that you're finished and done with the benzos and that you're thriving as well. That's so wonderful to hear and such an inspiration for us all. Truly. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for opening up enough to share your feelings about what you went through emotionally while you struggled to get to where you are now. It is hard without support and I'm so sorry that you had to go through it pretty much alone. Nobody should have to feel so isolated while going through such a rough time in their lives. Most especially not when you should have had people reaching out to you instead of the opposite.

 

I wish I had been around to help you through. I have an ache in my heart just thinking about how much you must have been hurting during both of your tapers. Ow, ow, ow, ouch.

 

But look at you now! You won! 

 

Someday we will all win. No matter how many obstacles lie in our paths, we will all win just like you, with or without support.

 

 

my best to you always,

 

koko

 

[[...]]

 

 

Is this the part where I smother you to death with a pillow? 

 

 

LOLOLOL....!!!!

 

No, please don't do that. Unlike McMurphy, I'm not brain dead.....      Yet! 

 

 

 

koko

[[La...]]

Any nano-taperers out there?

[[...]]

Think about it, nobody else understands us the way buddies here do. So we only have each other!!!!

 

Once again, D21, you are right on.

 

Ditto that. 

 

 

koko

[[...]]

Any nano-taperers out there?

 

There very well might be, Laser!

 

Only the Shadow knows.

 

 

koko

[[No...]]

Okay, y'all. I just now swallowed my next-to-last dose of benzo--ever. (Isn't this fascinating?  )

 

I re-read a bunch of the Ashton manual today. She seems like an exceedingly sensible and compassionate woman, doesn't she? Why she didn't answer my emails pleading for her to adopt me, I have no idea. (It would have been temporary.  )

 

Anyway, I'm stoked! No anxiety about it at all. I can't believe I'm almost done tapering. I can't believe I never have to take another benzo. I can't believe I can fire my doctor soon. This is fun!

 

 

[[li...]]

 

Of course I don't mean that everyone will be able to taper quicker using a daily method, but from my experience at reading a lot of posts from people who are following the cut and hold method on the lower doses, most don't seem to be able to cut as frequently or in the amount that Dr Ashton suggests. TBH, I don't know of anyone who has successfully been able to go from 5mg to 4mg in just 2 weeks, without experiencing a lot of s/x.

 

Hi Diaz-Pam,

 

The above is exactly why I started this support thread. There are many, many buddies that have, indeed, been able to drop in 1mg increments. They're just afraid to talk/moan/groan about their symptoms for fear of being chastised for cutting "too fast", as I pointed out in the intro post for this thread.

 

I've been PM'd many, many times by buddies who are dropping 1mg per week who are under the 10mg mark. I've watched other buddies from a distance drop by 1mg at a time when under 5mgs. Most of those buddies would then start dropping either in 0.5mg increments or 0.25mg increments after that point in time. I've witnessed plenty of buddies jump off from either 1mg or 0.5mg, as well.

 

The question is, why aren't these buddies more visible? My personal answer to that question is that they just don't want to hear it, you know? They're tired and weary from tapering and the last thing they need to hear is that they're going too fast, or too slow, or that they need to updose, or titrate, or microtaper, or....  you get what I mean. They're just plain tired of being told that what they're doing is wrong and is not the "right" thing to do.

 

 

Diazapam

Just using myself as an example, I know that when I was at 5mg, and I did an initial cut of 0.25mg, I still wasn't stable after 2 weeks.  So let's assume that I would have been stable enough to cut after 3 weeks (and that's not guaranteed), and was also able to do similar cuts down to 4mg, that would have taken me 12 weeks, but if you have a look at my signature, it took me just 7.5 weeks to get to 4mg by using a daily method. I was also able to do it fairly symptom free, where if I had followed the 3 weekly cuts I would have suffered a great deal for most of that time before I stabilised.

 

koko

Again, in my original post, I pointed out that stabilization, in many cases, is just  n-o-t  p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e. It was for me for a while during my taper but once I hit a certain point it simply disappeared. Just like that ... *poof!...gone!* ... never to be felt again.

 

We're not talking ever being able to stabilize here. And we're not talking about being symptom-free or even fairly symptom-free. We're talking survival. Survival and getting off of this stuff as soon as is humanly possible. I loathe to type the word "we" because, obviously, I cannot speak for anyone else. What I mean is "I" and "I'm", etc.. But judging by PMs and such, I know there are plenty aside from myself who feel the same way.

 

Again, it's not about stabilization or about being symptom-free. It is about pushing my (our) limits in order to get off this drug so that, once and for all, I (we) can finally heal.  

Everyone is different and everyone will have the method that they prefer. The only point I'm trying to really make is that a daily taper is NOT a slow taper or a micro-taper. That's all.  Like you, I have no interest in percentages either because I think they just confuse the tapering process too much. The bottom line is that you taper according to your symptoms, whether that be a cut and hold taper or a daily taper.

 

Of course. If a person totally wigs out then their taper is too fast. So, yes, taper according to symptoms. But to what degree are our symptoms too much for us to tolerate? That can only be answered on an individual basis and each one of us has our own line that we draw in the sand during this process. Absolutely. It's just that some people can extend their lines a bit further than others.

 

Obviously, it's much more complicated than that but, again, that is not the point of this support thread. The point of this thread is to provide a safe haven for those of us who chose to taper as close to the Ashton protocol as possible. 

 

btw - I just noticed that you are still on 10.5mg valium. I hope you can continue to use the cut and hold method, but I talk everyday with a lot of people on the lower doses of valium and (without exception) all of them have had to switch to a daily taper when their dose got somewhere between 5-10mg.

 

If what you're trying to say is, "You may end up eating crow," you might very well be right. But then again, you might not. Only time will tell. Nobody here is superhuman. And nobody can say with any certainty what the future holds. But if there is one thing that is a certainty in my mind, it is that every single one of us on this forum is herculean in mind, body, and spirit. Of that I am entirely and genuinely convinced.

 

 

koko

 

Nice thread Koko  (McMurphy) 

 

Hopefully this thread may be of benefit to many.

 

Yeah... I have to agree with you on the " n-o-t  p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e" TO STABILIZE issue. Most certainly was the case for me. For many of us this is all to common. I would imagine it may be difficult for one who has not experienced this to relate to it. It defies all logic... I can relate... for many of us we simply MUST go forth as we get little if NO RELIEF when we hold. A STEADY SLOW taper is truly is the only way for many of us to get off of poison. Then, what follows more often than not, a LONG, SLOW, recovery...

 

Another thing that troubles me is when I read over & over & over again  where one gets symptoms and have a hard time believing or accepting that symptoms for the MAJORITY on this forum is only part of the withdrawal process. I am constantly reading "you/I must have tapered to fast because..." or "I got hit with a wave because I...", or " if I had only gone slower..." etc etc.... truth be told is that  these symptoms present to the MAJORITY of users on this forum no matter what rate we go, what supplements we take, what time the sun rises, it is all irrelevant.... It is what it is... ACCEPTANCE IS KEY...

 

I also believe that when one "turtle tapers" & are "symptom free" it is due to the fact that the benzo is still a therapeutic dose & is down regulating GABA as it is engineered to do (even at a low dose). (This is a good thing for those who need to be functional)

 

What I have also observed is that many turtle taperers get off of benzo thinking that the worst is over because they are now off of poison only to be hit with an on slough of symptoms. Often this leads to a sense of failure or worse yet re-reinstatement because one then thinks they some how screwed up their taper because............what ever.......(Bart, your are an exception... maybe because you were only initially on POISON for 7 WEEKS... & then a 1 1/2 year taper... OMG...REALLY come on....)

 

Going SUPER SLOW DOES NOT GUARANTEE YOU WILL BE SYMPTOM FREE AFTER YOU ARE DONE & off of the poison. Simply NOT the case for the the MAJORITY of long term dependents on this forum... A PIPE DREAM to say the least... 

[[...]]

Okay, y'all. I just now swallowed my next-to-last dose of benzo--ever. (Isn't this fascinating?  )

 

I find it extremely fascinating! I cannot wait for the next chapter which is genuine-honest-to-goodness-not-to-be-mistaken TRUE healing! Yay, NoNo!!!!  :yippee: :yippee:

 

I re-read a bunch of the Ashton manual today. She seems like an exceedingly sensible and compassionate woman, doesn't she? Why she didn't answer my emails pleading for her to adopt me, I have no idea. (It would have been temporary.  )

 

Don't feel bad. She didn't answer my adoption plea, either.  :'(

 

Anyway, I'm stoked! No anxiety about it at all. I can't believe I'm almost done tapering. I can't believe I never have to take another benzo. I can't believe I can fire my doctor soon. This is fun!

 

I'm not allowed to post pictures here. If I could, I would. So, instead, I'll just make some big letters for you, NoNo:

 

 

! Freedom !

 

 

No sweeter word in the benzo world than that one! 

 

 

koko

[[No...]]

 

Nice thread Koko  (McMurphy) 

 

Hopefully this thread may be of benefit to many.

 

Yeah... I have to agree with you on the " n-o-t  p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e" TO STABILIZE issue. Most certainly was the case for me. For many of us this is all to common. I would imagine it may be difficult for one who has not experienced this to relate to it. It defies all logic... I can relate... for many of us we simply MUST go forth as we get little if NO RELIEF when we hold. A STEADY SLOW taper is truly is the only way for many of us to get off of poison. Then, what follows more often than not, a LONG, SLOW, recovery...

 

Another thing that troubles me is when I read over & over & over again  where one gets symptoms and have a hard time believing or accepting that symptoms for the MAJORITY on this forum is only part of the withdrawal process. I am constantly reading "you/I must have tapered to fast because..." or "I got hit with a wave because I...", or " if I had only gone slower..." etc etc.... truth be told is that  these symptoms present to the MAJORITY of users on this forum no matter what rate we go, what supplements we take, what time the sun rises, it is all irrelevant.... It is what it is... ACCEPTANCE IS KEY...

 

I also believe that when one "turtle tapers" & are "symptom free" it is due to the fact that the benzo is still a therapeutic dose & is down regulating GABA as it is engineered to do (even at a low dose). (This is a good thing for those who need to be functional)

 

What I have also observed is that many turtle taperers get off of benzo thinking that the worst is over because they are now off of poison only to be hit with an on slough of symptoms. Often this leads to a sense of failure or worse yet re-reinstatement because one then thinks they some how screwed up their taper because............what ever.......(Bart, your are an exception... maybe because you were only initially on POISON for 7 WEEKS... & then a 1 1/2 year taper... OMG...REALLY come on....)

 

Going SUPER SLOW DOES NOT GUARANTEE YOU WILL BE SYMPTOM FREE AFTER YOU ARE DONE & off of the poison. Simply NOT the case for the the MAJORITY of long term dependents on this forum... A PIPE DREAM to say the least... 

 

Thanks for the post, liljoe, and I hear ya. No way was I stabilizing. The only way for me was OFF.

 

I nearly drove myself batty when I first got here, trying to figure out how to proceed, until I had a duh moment and just went with Ashton. Is it ideal? I'll never know.

 

Outside of cold turkey/super-fast tapers being a bad idea, the only thing about benzo withdrawal that I'm sure of is that it sucks.

 

It's too unpredictable to say much beyond that. That's clear from the massive amount of opposite advice on the forum. Diet, exercise, supplements, antidepressants, all kinds of tapers ... it's all here ... but for every person who swears by something, there's someone else who swears against it.

 

So, benzo withdrawal sucks. That's it. I can dwell on that or I can accept (key, yes!) it, grit my teeth, and get it done. It isn't a terminal disease, after all (and that's about the nicest thing I can think of to say about it).

 

Now I'm just rambling.    Glad you posted. 

 

 

Okay, y'all. I just now swallowed my next-to-last dose of benzo--ever. (Isn't this fascinating?  )

 

I find it extremely fascinating! I cannot wait for the next chapter which is genuine-honest-to-goodness-not-to-be-mistaken TRUE healing! Yay, NoNo!!!!  :yippee: :yippee:

 

I re-read a bunch of the Ashton manual today. She seems like an exceedingly sensible and compassionate woman, doesn't she? Why she didn't answer my emails pleading for her to adopt me, I have no idea. (It would have been temporary.  )

 

Don't feel bad. She didn't answer my adoption plea, either.  :'(

 

Anyway, I'm stoked! No anxiety about it at all. I can't believe I'm almost done tapering. I can't believe I never have to take another benzo. I can't believe I can fire my doctor soon. This is fun!

 

I'm not allowed to post pictures here. If I could, I would. So, instead, I'll just make some big letters for you, NoNo:

 

 

! Freedom !

 

 

No sweeter word in the benzo world than that one! 

 

 

koko

 

You da best. Thank you. 

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Just in support of the Ashton Method, I got from 8 mgs Ativan to my present dose of .25 Ativan using the Ashton method.

 

I started off badly because my dose was dropped in half in a three month time span.  I went from 6 mg K to 6 mgs A in three months.  That was bad.  That screwed me up royally.

 

However, I continued to cut using Ashton after that initial too much drop, and although it was pretty damn terrible, I slowly got out of the acute, even while tapering using the Ashton Method.

 

I know that most people are never on that high of a dose.  But really, when I see people taking more than a year to get off 1 mg of Valium, I find that very unpalatable.  Because, that's like saying I should take another year to get off the .25 that I am on?  I am on 2.5 V equivalent right now.  Following the method of some on here, would take me another two years to get off of what I am on?

 

I definitely think reason goes out the window with some microtaperers.  I think it is Obsessive Compulsive behaviour.  You cannot convince them of that, but the absurdity of the extreme lengths they will go to is very obvious to others.  And when you are in benzo withdrawal, it is easy to be misled that way or get confused because you may not be thinking entirely straight.  But, I do believe that the Ashton Method is very good, very sound and I have seen Colin try to dissuade people from taking the infinite taper course.

 

I do believe slow is the way to go.  But there is slow, and then there is sloooooooooooooooow.  Peeps be measuring amounts that are almost certainly not having any measurable affect.

 

So rest assured, if anyone is doubting the Ashton Method, it is doable and has been done numerous times.  Don't let fear take hold and think you have to taper for 10,000 years.  You don't.

[[No...]]

Hi, Mairin33. 

 

Our experiences sound similar, although I wasn't on as high of a dosage as you were (wow!).

 

I also got out of acute while doing the Ashton taper. I'm glad you brought that up. I hadn't thought about it that way, but that's what happened.

 

Sometimes I think I'm still recovering from that first 50% drop ... it was that bad.

 

You've made fantastic progress! Do you know yet when you'll be finished with your taper?