ASHTON TAPER / CUT & HOLD SUPPORT

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gotta go cook pancakes for 4 teenagers right now....  bbl... Thanks, Benzy, for not getting huffy with me for getting personal...

 

 

koko

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Benzy

I did a regular blood profile test my glucose was elevated, it should be under 100, it was 118. It's not considered diabetic but needs to go down.There are different tests to check for diabetes, but i think that basic fasting (first thing in the morning before breakfast) blood test shows normal glucose levels I would not bother with more elaborate tests. some can take 2 to 3 hours.It's called glucose tolerance test.I am trying to keep my stress level as low as possible, plus

I have no energy. Going to docs is very stressful to me, specially after what they did to me.I have no respect left for med profession.

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Koko

What reaction did you have to magnesium? Maybe u already explained it but I can't find it sorry benzo brain. Mag helped me.

D21

[[Al...]]

Remember, I am not sure that it was the magnesium. It's so hard to be sure about anything during w/d's. It frustrates me to no end but that's just how it is.

 

This is the magnesium I was taking:

 

http://www.vitacost.com/doctors-best-high-absorption-100-chelated-magnesium-240-tablets-1

 

It's good magnesium. There's nothing wrong with it at all. And, like I wrote, it really might have been just a coincidence. But I won't really ever know. I'm pretty sure I'll try it again someday. Just not now while I'm still so fearful of it.

 

I was taking 200mgs mid-morning and 200mgs after dinner around 8pm for about a week and a half. I think there is a lot of info about magnesium on this forum if you do a search on it. For most people it is a godsend. For me that's still yet to be fully determined.

 

 

KOKO I took that magnesium in the beginning as recommended y a friend who tapered and it made me feel really bad had very bad symptoms and then i went to magnesium oxide. 200 mg twice a day and its great. but I heard a lot of people took that doctors best and had bad reactions to it. maybe you can try toe oxide. I was reading a post eariler on someone's blog and they are taking Magox 400 mg twice a day and it seems to help them a lot. I think i'm going to switch to that which is actually magnesium oxide but in s much stronger form. maybe the magox will work for you this person who posted about ti said it is great for extra sensitive people !!

[[Al...]]

AFIM,    <---- mind if I shorten your name to that?

 

How do you know when you're having blood sugar issues? And how can you tell the difference between w/d's and blood sugar problems? Is it like everything else having to do with w/d in that you just don't know unless you go to a doctor?

 

These guessing games about our health are really getting old. For me, at least. I'm so tired of always wondering. But, well, as they say: The show must go on!

 

 

koko

 

KOKO that's fine the abbreviated name  I didn't think about the length when i made it up.. Well I was having low blood sugar symptoms like shaky, clod sweats, and feeling i was going to pass out and my sugar was low then. then there were times when i felt kind of manic and the sugar was higher than normal. My doctor said it was form the withdrawals and it messes the metabolism up so not to worry but eat more healthy and less carbs and more protien and complex carbs. so i did that and it resolved.  so i got the meter to watch how it was doing and to help me figure out the best foods to eat and not eat !

yes the guessing games makes it hard sometimes but its all we really got cept each other !!!

[[Be...]]

ya thats the test, she said last year my number was 97

[[La...]]

Mg2+ is a really important ion in the body, particularly for proper muscle function. I took the citrate form for a while and really believe it helped me, both for muscle pain/aches and for insomnia (I took it before bed).  But as another poster on BB pointed out (they claim to have gotten kidney stones from taking too much Mg2+), too much of any mineral can be dangerous. I don't claim to know how much is too much, but I would caution all of us to be mindful about moderation when it comes to supplementing any mineral on a continual basis.

[[Al...]]

Hi Almostfree

What kind of sugar issues were you having when you began your taper? I would like to know my fasting blood glucose test level is elevated (not diabetic but can be considered pre diabetic). I am wondering if this is from lovely Benzos that we all love so much.lol

D21

 

D21 like I told KOKO I was going real high and real low all the time in the very beginning of my taper and it was a whacked out metabolism from the withdrawals. Once I changed the way i was eating it resolved. but YES it is totally form the benzos. My doctor said the withdrawals play Havoc on our Metabolism.

[[Ma...]]

I had severe blood pressure and blood sugar issues in the beginning.  It went on for more than 6 months. 

 

My large dose drop I think triggered that.  It put my body into shock I do believe and my body just could not regulate my blood pressure system.  I believe that was excitotoxicity from just dropping way to much.  My body gradually regained that function so that I am not passing out daily anymore and haven't for the last 10 months.

 

Also, the urination problem.  I was on high dose of klonopin, which is a potent muscle relaxer.  I developed the problem of having to urinate very frequently, like every 20 minutes.  That was pretty horrible, and I am sure it was from the drug.  It took a while for that to go away too.  Dear God I was just a mess.  But the more I look back on this, the more I realize how much damage was done by the large drop.  It brought on cold turkey like symptoms.  I would not think that would happen if you went down slow the whole way.  It's the big drops that really do serious bad damage.

 

Put it this way, I was on Klonopin and switched to ativan.  I was not on valium, but the equivalent drop I experienced was like going from 120 mgs V to 80 mgs V and then down to 60 mgs V shortly thereafter.  So I was cut from 120 mv V equivalent to 60 mgs V equivalent in a three month time span, and that was just way too much for my body to handle and I went into shock.  That's the kind of drop I am talking about.

 

I know most people are not going to go through THAT.  Because most people never wind up on that freaking much.

 

Benzos are muscle relaxers.  I am totally convinced the urination problems were caused by the klonopin.  I never had that problem on 2 mg A though.  But, it could be a factor in that problem.

[[mr...]]

I had severe blood pressure and blood sugar issues in the beginning.  It went on for more than 6 months. 

 

My large dose drop I think triggered that.  It put my body into shock I do believe and my body just could not regulate my blood pressure system.  I believe that was excitotoxicity from just dropping way to much.  My body gradually regained that function so that I am not passing out daily anymore and haven't for the last 10 months.

 

Also, the urination problem.  I was on high dose of klonopin, which is a potent muscle relaxer.  I developed the problem of having to urinate very frequently, like every 20 minutes.  That was pretty horrible, and I am sure it was from the drug.  It took a while for that to go away too.  Dear God I was just a mess.  But the more I look back on this, the more I realize how much damage was done by the large drop.  It brought on cold turkey like symptoms.  I would not think that would happen if you went down slow the whole way.  It's the big drops that really do serious bad damage.

 

Put it this way, I was on Klonopin and switched to ativan.  I was not on valium, but the equivalent drop I experienced was like going from 120 mgs V to 80 mgs V and then down to 60 mgs V shortly thereafter.  So I was cut from 120 mv V equivalent to 60 mgs V equivalent in a three month time span, and that was just way too much for my body to handle and I went into shock.  That's the kind of drop I am talking about.

 

I know most people are not going to go through THAT.  Because most people never wind up on that freaking much.

 

Benzos are muscle relaxers.  I am totally convinced the urination problems were caused by the klonopin.  I never had that problem on 2 mg A though.  But, it could be a factor in that problem.

My mom had the high bp (up and down) and blood sugar issues when tapering too fast on the valium.

She also, was urinating every 20 minutes.

I don't if it underlying ativan or valium w/d's.

She did end up with a breathing oxygen desaturation problem after ct from ativan.

 

[[Be...]]

did you have a full bladder when you went? I literally got up and down 6 times the other night,, immediately after laying back down, right back again,,, full bladder... its crazy..

can that be benzo induced as well?

[[Ma...]]

I'm not sure Benzy.  I know that problem was definitely triggered for me by too much Klonopin.  Before the klonopin, I had been on Ativan for 8 years and at 2.5 mgs a day and I never had that problem.  I think it was the klonopin that caused that because k is such a potent muscle relaxer.  I feel strongly that that was the cause.  However, X is pretty potent as well and may have triggered this for you.

 

X and K are the same potency I do believe.  It did go away for me, after about 7 months?  Can't remember for sure but it got less and less of a problem and now I DO NOT have that problem nor do I worry about it anymore which is such an enormous relief.

[[Be...]]

oky dok, Ill report back with my results later this week..

[[No...]]

I'm peeing a lot. It's ridiculous.    I had this somewhat when I dropped 50% of my Klonopin dosage in ~6 weeks (ow), then it went away for a long time, then it came back when I got to 1.5mg or so of the Valium. I think it's peaked, though, as it was better last night.

 

All part of the process, I guess. (Stupid process.  )

 

I'm three doses away from jumping! 

 

 

[[mr...]]

I'm three doses away from jumping! 

congrats!

[[be...]]

I'm totally pro Ashton, my motto is dont be so open minded that your brain falls out.

Also, with my "issues", I have to make a plan and stick with it, or I'll never get there..

It's worked for me, in fact I'm on my last dose before I jump..

Only thing I do/did different is sometimes I hold 3 weeks before cutting, as opposed to the 14 days, but she allows room for that.

Thanks for the thread..

 

ps, although the site allows for different "theories", the Ashton Manual is the one link the moderators give each new member, and they state Ashton is "quote... A leading expert authority", they don't recommend anything else n that manner upon joining... that speaks volumes.

 

Benzy:

 

Have been following you for quite some time now, and I can't wait for you to make that final jump. I hope it's an easy one for you and that you keep your sense of humor. I love that about you. Keeps me positive, or else my open brain WILL explode! Hugs, Betsy

[[Di...]]

No disrespect taken. I just wanted to point out that a lot of people seem to assume that those who aren't following the Ashton cut and hold tapering method are automatically doing a much slower taper, when in fact they aren't. Ironically sometimes it can actually be a faster taper than a cut and hold taper because you aren't waiting for s/x to diminish as much. I know for me my initial 1mg cut was a lot quicker than if I had done it as a cut and hold taper.

 

The term "micro-taper" is actually one that was coined by a different benzo website and isn't a term that is condoned on BB, although it is often used, because the definition is too ambiguous and misleading. Daily taper says what it is on the tin, so there can’t be any confusion over what it actually means.

 

However, as koko said, the only thing that is really important is that we all reach that ultimate goal of zero. How we get there is really unimportant, as long as the process was manageable.

 

Hi Diaz-Pam,

 

I'm a bit confused what you mean by this. Do you mean faster by percentage?

 

I'm not really sure where the 5-10% cut per 1 to 2 weeks came from. Here and there throughout a long Ashton taper her suggested withdrawal schedules exceed 10%. Sometimes far exceeding 10%. The best example of this is going from 10mg to 0mg:

 

1-2wks  --  10mgs 

1-2wks  --    9mgs  (10%)

1-2wks  --    8mgs  (11.1%)

1-2wks  --    7mgs  (12.5%)

1-2wks  --    6mgs  (14.3%)

1-2wks  --    5mgs  (16.6%)

1-2wks  --    4mgs  (20%)

1-2wks  --    3mgs  (25%)

1-2wks  --    2mgs  (33.3%)

1-2wks  --    1mgs  (50%)

1-2wks  --    0mgs  (100%)

 

So, that's quite a bit different than taking the same amount of time to drop from, say, 2mgs to 0mgs, right? I'm just trying to get my head around what it is that you're trying to point out.

 

In any case, personally, I don't focus on the percentages anymore. I gave that up a while ago when I realized that no matter what percentage I dropped (within reason, of course), I was still symptomatic regardless.

 

 

koko

 

Of course I don't mean that everyone will be able to taper quicker using a daily method, but from my experience at reading a lot of posts from people who are following the cut and hold method on the lower doses, most don't seem to be able to cut as frequently or in the amount that Dr Ashton suggests. TBH, I don't know of anyone who has successfully been able to go from 5mg to 4mg in just 2 weeks, without experiencing a lot of s/x.

 

Just using myself as an example, I know that when I was at 5mg, and I did an initial cut of 0.25mg, I still wasn't stable after 2 weeks.  So let's assume that I would have been stable enough to cut after 3 weeks (and that's not guaranteed), and was also able to do similar cuts down to 4mg, that would have taken me 12 weeks, but if you have a look at my signature, it took me just 7.5 weeks to get to 4mg by using a daily method. I was also able to do it fairly symptom free, where if I had followed the 3 weekly cuts I would have suffered a great deal for most of that time before I stabilised.

 

Everyone is different and everyone will have the method that they prefer. The only point I'm trying to really make is that a daily taper is NOT a slow taper or a micro-taper. That's all.  Like you, I have no interest in percentages either because I think they just confuse the tapering process too much. The bottom line is that you taper according to your symptoms, whether that be a cut and hold taper or a daily taper.

 

btw - I just noticed that you are still on 10.5mg valium. I hope you can continue to use the cut and hold method, but I talk everyday with a lot of people on the lower doses of valium and (without exception) all of them have had to switch to a daily taper when their dose got somewhere between 5-10mg.

[[mr...]]

I agree with diaz because I had my mom following the ashton method she got so bad, I had to updose her from 0 - 2.5mg.

I also, did the cut and hold method and symptoms were just getting bad for more days after a cut.

She just would't stabilize.

Then, I was convinced to try the daily taper and it worked great.

She would have a symptom here and there, but not to the degree it was with the cut and hold.

She has reduced very quickly compared to the cut and hold method.

 

I wish I would have started her on the daily taper from the start and she might have done better and off sooner.

 

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youd be hard pressed to offend me, unless someone just tries too..

 

my heart finally settled down and got back into a normal rythmn, the arrhythmias subsided. so I just dont need it anymore..it took about a full year on the meds to do it though, so i surely was dependent...

 

the main reason I did the Ashton taper tho was to hopefully get off the drug without agitating my system to the point that the problem started back up, so far so good....it woulda all been for nothing if I tapered the quick way, since heart palps and such are a common withdrawal sxs, that would had probably got me all messed up again....

 

In the meantime, I FINALLY learned to devvelop my coping skills and such, because of the taper/withdrawals... I already had them to use for anxiety/panic/depression/etc.... but I went through a 4 year period of high stress that set my heart off.. because though I had the skillz, I never developed them or used them, I thought just knowing about them was enough 

 

Im gonna rest a few months after I get off, and try to taper off the heart meds as well...

I would love to be drug free again, but I dunno if Ill be able to do that or not..

the heart meds make me very fatigued and tired all the time, it sucks..

 

Wow. That really does sound scary. What sort of coping skills have you learned? Do you mean cognitive behavioral skills? Relaxation exercises? Meditation? Self therapy like that?

 

I'd like to be completely drug-free, too, by the end of this taper but I don't think it's going to happen. That was my goal when I started this taper, actually. To one day be completely 100% drug-free. It may happen or it may not. We'll see. Let's just say, like you, I still have a fighting chance at it.

 

Drug-free ... no sweeter words, eh?

 

 

koko

[[Be...]]

thanks Benzogirl, that means a lot to me, Ive had some trouble on here because some people dont get me and my "humor"....also ya dont realize people are following your story, when they dont tell ya, that makes me feel good.. I hope I stay well, theres always room to hit a snag, especially when jumping and afterwards, Im pretty confident ill be ok tho, it would surprise me if I have a big problem,, we'll see...

 

Koko, yes, those are the skillz I was referring too, I had them in my head, from years of anxiety/panic/dpression disorders,,,,but evidently my problems weren't THAT bad, cause I never developed them.....also I popped a random .25 xanax off and on along the way (I didnt get dependent on xanax until the heart thing this last year because I never used them constantly, only one here and there, Id usually throw a near full bottle away after the expiration date)

But, the taper/withdrawal forced me to finally develop the skillz, so Im glad about that...

 

Im getting set to start my next cutting and my jump 

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I can "feel" my magnesium every now and then... and if ya dont know what it is, it can set off anxiety/withdrawals,, though I dont think the magnesium itself causes the proble,, if you get what Im saying.. it does cause a feeling sometimes,, but its harmless,,,, until your "benzo brain" takes over and you get scared and the anxiety takes off and such,,, thats what I think happens...

 

Ive taken up to 2000mgs a day,,,, you do need to gradually instate it though,, start with a really low dose and increase it every 2 weeks or so...they say increase it until it starts to bother your "stomach" (thats a good way to put it),, if it does, back down a dose..

 

I totally get what you're saying. And I'm the first to admit that, right now, it's just plain ole fear keeping me from trying it again. I'm sure that I'll try it again, no doubt, but I'll start with 200mgs a.m. only at first and then gradually add in the 200mg p.m..

 

My Ob-Gyn told me eons ago to start taking 400mgs a day just like that but I never did because I was a lazy butt. And that's his standard advice to all women of all ages. So, if he thinks there's nothing to it, there probably isn't. But then again he knows nothing about benzo withdrawal. So...?

 

Anyway, I will definitely give it another try but I do have to wait until my fear subsides.

 

 

koko

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Koko

What reaction did you have to magnesium? Maybe u already explained it but I can't find it sorry benzo brain. Mag helped me.

D21

 

Basically this, D21 (from my previous post):

 

 

A couple/few days after I started taking the magnesium, I started getting adrenaline rushes mid-afternoon. Which was weird because I hadn't experienced that before. Usually they're mid-morning or not at all. I just thought it was another w/d sx especially because I've read a million times over that those rushes are common in withdrawal. So I just rode them out chalking them up to yet another 'thing' that I would have to learn to deal with.

 

Well, when I cut again the rushes started getting really bad. Very strong. My current sxs did ramp up. Not a huge amount but some. And then I started getting insomnia. Not horrible insomnia but my sleep was really disturbed and I could only get about 3 or 4 hours in a night. I chalked that up to new w/d sxs too.

 

But when I stopped taking the magnesium the rushes went away and my sleep improved (moderately) at night.

 

 

Still, honestly, this could have just been a coincidence and might not have been the magnesium at all. I'm just being cautious right now.

 

 

koko

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KOKO I took that magnesium in the beginning as recommended y a friend who tapered and it made me feel really bad had very bad symptoms and then i went to magnesium oxide. 200 mg twice a day and its great. but I heard a lot of people took that doctors best and had bad reactions to it. maybe you can try toe oxide. I was reading a post eariler on someone's blog and they are taking Magox 400 mg twice a day and it seems to help them a lot. I think i'm going to switch to that which is actually magnesium oxide but in s much stronger form. maybe the magox will work for you this person who posted about ti said it is great for extra sensitive people !!

 

AFIM,

 

If you do start taking it I'll be curious to see how it works out for you. How about YOU be the guinea pig and I just sit back and watch?

 

Seriously, let me know how it goes for you if you do try it, okay? Thanks.

 

 

koko

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Mg2+ is a really important ion in the body, particularly for proper muscle function. I took the citrate form for a while and really believe it helped me, both for muscle pain/aches and for insomnia (I took it before bed).  But as another poster on BB pointed out (they claim to have gotten kidney stones from taking too much Mg2+), too much of any mineral can be dangerous. I don't claim to know how much is too much, but I would caution all of us to be mindful about moderation when it comes to supplementing any mineral on a continual basis.

 

Laser, I completely agree with that sentiment.

 

Right now I'm gun shy about taking anything at all. Even Vit D which I have to take because of deficiency. You should see me eyeballing that little pill every morning. If looks could kill........ 

 

 

koko

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I had severe blood pressure and blood sugar issues in the beginning.  It went on for more than 6 months. 

 

My large dose drop I think triggered that.

 

Mairin,

 

I'm so sorry that you were put through that. That sounds horrible. Really, really, gruesomely horrible. It's so sad to read this over and over again. So many people here innocently found themselves launched into the same scenario. augh.

 

As far as blood pressure goes, I'm not sure if yours dropped or skyrocketed?

 

When I started my taper, I was already well-informed about the dangers of benzo withdrawal thanks to this forum. I had been wanting to w/d for about 5 years. I actually had this forum bookmarked that entire time before I finally decided that I definitely wanted to take the plunge. And so I started Ashton with the help of my pdoc from the get go.

 

Still, once I started my taper my perfectly normal blood pressure started rising. And then as the taper continued it went higher. And then higher still as time went on. Finally I was rx'd hydro-something to control it and eventually my MD and pdoc switched me over to propranolol.

 

So, even though I didn't go through the horrendous experience that you did, my blood pressure took a big hit. Are you on anything now for blood pressure control?

 

Again, I'm so, so very sorry that you were put through such a traumatic ordeal.    

 

 

koko