ASHTON TAPER / CUT & HOLD SUPPORT

[[...]]

well, to be "fair".... I "feel".... going slower than Ashton suggest would be ok.......but after a certain point I "feel" it would lead to the problems we've already suggested.

 

when I say slower I mean, like we've already suggested, just holding a week or two more, than she originally suggested,,,, I think she updated her manual didnt she, and extended her original suggestions herself, Im not sure...

 

but the micro tapering and such,,, geez, Im so glad Im not in that....right or wrong...

 

Benzy research magnesium and heart rhythm, it helps unless you have a physical reason that is causing it. If you decide to take it take Jigsaw brand SR from Amazon does not cause intestinal problems (because you need higher dosages) or you can get transdermal mag oil from Amazon.

I thought this will help.Let me know if you have any questions.

D21

[[Be...]]

thanks, Im a old pro.... 2000 mgs a day sometimes

[[...]]

Does it help?

[[...]]

I will be here Koko

Another thought I had was that Benzos are CNS depressants with side effects of depression, fatigue, cog fog, it generally slows everything down.This are symptoms that are added on top of the withdrawal symptoms.I may be wrong but my logic is telling me that the sooner one tapers the benzos the sooner they will get rid of the side effects. Yes it has to be reasonable,I rushed it once and end up in the ER.I learned my lesson and started following the Aston method.

Be in touch.

 

Ditto that, D1. I believe, for me too, that is key.

 

 

koko

[[...]]

Hi koko

I think this thread is a great idea! Ashton showed that her method worked for a very high percentage of people and she remains the best authority in this field. Those of us who join these support groups and post a lot are not the norm, and I suspect the Ashton tables will continue to work for most people. I can see how one could get the message that slower than Ashton is better, but I say that only applies to a minority of taperers who are over represented on BB. Keep up the good work. I wish I could have done my taper at the Ashton rates.

Bart

 

Thank you, Bart.

 

Yes, I suppose I am simply trying to balance the scales here on BB both for current buddies and for new buddies that come along, as well. And for selfish reasons(!) -- I need help getting through this, too.

 

And let me say congratulations to you for winning your battle with the benzos. I'm so very happy for you! 

 

 

koko

[[Vr...]]

Koko,

 

I was in a similar situation and came to the conclusion Ashton is a good guide.  My taper was a slow Ashton with some tweaking (the method, not me) towards the end.  Like you say, she does give plenty of wiggle room (taper, not me) for those who want to go slower and reduce doses even further before jumping.

 

I especially liked her chapters on sxs and the fears they may bring.  Sometimes I had to push through a few sxs around day 7-10 after a cut but always felt better for it and came out smiling the other end.  In fact, I set personal bests at scrabble during my taper.  I remember how sharp my mind would feel when I experienced minor sxs during a dose reduction.  I sort of miss that.

 

I'm now 11 months out and sxs free for the last 7.  The last thing to go was the benzo bloat around month 4.  I'm still depressed and anxious but I was that way before I took benzos in the first place.  I learned to recognize that not every sxs is benzo withdrawal.

 

I was told a short taper (even slower than Ashton speed) would lead to some sort of prolonged misery called the protracted withdrawal syndrome yet it never came.

 

Ibble

[[La...]]

I don't see why Ashton's work would be outdated. What has changed to make her guidances less valid? She witnessed many people withdrawing from benzos and her perspectives are the sum total of all that experience. Who has had more experience than her and has shared it through publication? 

 

Laserjet Congratulations on your taper, I was just wondering if you support the Ashton method why did you not switch to Valium?

 

DD21: Thanks for the  congratulations. Not there yet, but I see it coming.

 

Ashton? V? The path for me was clear. I developed a method of cutting the lorazepam each week that I could tolerate. I used Ashtons taper rate, but stayed with the lorazepam. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. I also think it is more helpful to get quick feedback if the cut was too small or too big. Due to its rapid pharmacokinetics (PK), I would know rather quickly if I needed to adjust, and if so, from which cut. Valium's delayed PK, would make it hard to adjust quickly with confidence. That's not to say V isn't a good choice for someone else. Just not for me in this particular situation.

[[...]]

Hi AlmostFreeIsMe,

 

I loved your post. I can identify with everything that you wrote aside from working a full time job. There is a thread here somewhere on the forum for support for people who have to work through their taper. I can't imagine in my wildest dreams how anyone could manage that. I'm in awe of you and all the others like you who can power through your taper and work at the same time. Wow.

 

Your attitude is wonderful and I love it. I try to keep moving, too, as much as I possibly can. And I'll continue to do my best at that as I get lower and lower in dosage. It's strange, though. I keep thinking that things are going to get worse and worse the lower I go but that's not necessarily true, is it? many times I've read that things get better rather than worse. Was/is that the case for you?

 

Thanks for writing such a positive post. I'm looking forward to getting to know you better, for sure.

 

Oh, and let me not forget to welcome you to the BB forum! 

 

 

koko 

[[Di...]]

I guess you know it will be hard to hold this thread together without a war, but... lol

my concern with the slow taper is  this, to me it would maybe produce a type of "tolerance", thats not a medical fact, just my own math... makes sense to me..

and those that Ive read about insisting its the only way to go, seem to have the most problems along the way....

 

thats just my observation from everything Ive read on here...

 

I certainly hope that there won't be any “wars” on this thread. Everyone needs to remember that we all have the right to taper using whatever method we find the best. However, people need to be very specific about what they define as a “micro taper” or a “slow taper”.  Usually what they actually mean is a “daily taper”.

 

Just because someone is doing a daily taper, it doesn't necessarily mean they are not using the Ashton protocols or that they are tapering “slowly”. This seems to be a constant misconception with people who aren’t familiar with the daily tapering methods. Even daily taperers themselves often say they are doing a “slow” taper, yet when you work out what cuts they are making they really aren’t tapering that slowly at all. Certainly no more slowly than someone following the Ashton Method.

 

Daily taperers are just splitting those larger one-off cuts into daily portions. Oftentimes the percentage of the cut is still very similar, so I don’t really see that they are in any more danger of tolerance than someone who is following the Ashton Method.

 

For example, throughout my taper, my cuts have always worked out to being around 7-10%. Even now that my dose is very low, the cuts that I'm making actually work out to being around 10-12%. I'm just choosing to taper down to a very low dose before jumping. Not everyone wants to do that, but I know from my own experience with s/x that it is necessary for me to do it.

 

A lot of us have very different sensitives to benzos and some of us just can’t handle those one-off larger cuts. I tried numerous times to cut my 5mg dose by just 0.25mg and every time I would face-plant because I just couldn't tolerate the insomnia even after a couple of weeks. I just wasn't prepared to put myself through that constant trauma. For me, a daily reduction plan worked much better and mostly I'm symptom free, except for when my impatience gets the better of me.

 

However, for those who choose to follow the cut and hold plan, I really hope everything goes well for you and you have minimal s/x.

[[...]]

Ha Ha and we thought this thread will not last.Thanks again Koko!

D21

[[Be...]]

D21, sorry got busy, yes it helps mucho, it helped get my heart back into the right rythmn, after a year of being out of rythmn...

[[...]]

Koko,

 

I was in a similar situation and came to the conclusion Ashton is a good guide.  My taper was a slow Ashton with some tweaking (the method, not me) towards the end.  Like you say, she does give plenty of wiggle room (taper, not me) for those who want to go slower and reduce doses even further before jumping.

 

I especially liked her chapters on sxs and the fears they may bring.  Sometimes I had to push through a few sxs around day 7-10 after a cut but always felt better for it and came out smiling the other end.  In fact, I set personal bests at scrabble during my taper.  I remember how sharp my mind would feel when I experienced minor sxs during a dose reduction.  I sort of miss that.

 

I'm now 11 months out and sxs free for the last 7.  The last thing to go was the benzo bloat around month 4.  I'm still depressed and anxious but I was that way before I took benzos in the first place.  I learned to recognize that not every sxs is benzo withdrawal.

 

I was told a short taper (even slower than Ashton speed) would lead to some sort of prolonged misery called the protracted withdrawal syndrome yet it never came.

 

Ibble

 

Hi Ibble,

 

Thank you so much for that. How generous of you to take the time to sit down and write such a reassuring post. That's probably not an easy thing to do once you've been through a taper. I'm bracing myself for some sort of PTSD once I'm finished with this.

 

It's funny that you mention how you miss your uber-focus during w/d. I've been having the same experience as you had in that way and was hoping that it would stay this way. I've been thinking that maybe this is the real me that lies beneath the benzo blanket. Oh, well. At least I have one sx that I'll miss! lol

 

I'm sorry that you're still depressed. And still have anxiety. Is it tolerable for you? I often wonder if my panic disorder and agoraphobia will return when I'm off the benzo. I keep hoping that since it's been over 30 years that maybe my mind has forgotten how to have panic attacks or have so much anxiety that I can't leave the house? That is yet to be seen, I suppose.

 

That is such wonderful news to hear that you haven't suffered protracted withdrawals. I am so happy for you that you haven't experienced that. I think protracted withdrawal is probably the biggest fear for all of us during our tapers. It probably was for you too?

 

Thanks again for sharing your experience. I think you probably know just how much it means to us. That was very, very kind of you. 

 

 

koko

[[...]]

thanks, Im a old pro.... 2000 mgs a day sometimes

 

Benzy & D21,

 

I can't be 100% sure but I think I had a bad reaction to magnesium. In my sig you can see where I got hit really, really hard. I had started taking chelated magnesium the week before that happened. I stopped the magnesium once I realized that maybe it could have been the reason I was slammed so badly out of seemingly nowhere. The next night I started feeling better. The night after that I felt even better.

 

Coincidence? Or do you think that maybe it's possible it was the magnesium?

 

I don't know the first thing about magnesium. Obviously.

 

 

koko

[[...]]

I guess you know it will be hard to hold this thread together without a war, but... lol

my concern with the slow taper is  this, to me it would maybe produce a type of "tolerance", thats not a medical fact, just my own math... makes sense to me..

and those that Ive read about insisting its the only way to go, seem to have the most problems along the way....

 

thats just my observation from everything Ive read on here...

 

I certainly hope that there won't be any “wars” on this thread. Everyone needs to remember that we all have the right to taper using whatever method we find the best. However, people need to be very specific about what they define as a “micro taper” or a “slow taper”.  Usually what they actually mean is a “daily taper”.

 

Just because someone is doing a daily taper, it doesn't necessarily mean they are not using the Ashton protocols or that they are tapering “slowly”. This seems to be a constant misconception with people who aren’t familiar with the daily tapering methods. Even daily taperers themselves often say they are doing a “slow” taper, yet when you work out what cuts they are making they really aren’t tapering that slowly at all. Certainly no more slowly than someone following the Ashton Method.

 

Daily taperers are just splitting those larger one-off cuts into daily portions. Oftentimes the percentage of the cut is still very similar, so I don’t really see that they are in any more danger of tolerance than someone who is following the Ashton Method.

 

For example, throughout my taper, my cuts have always worked out to being around 7-10%. Even now that my dose is very low, the cuts that I'm making actually work out to being around 10-12%. I'm just choosing to taper down to a very low dose before jumping. Not everyone wants to do that, but I know from my own experience with s/x that it is necessary for me to do it.

 

A lot of us have very different sensitives to benzos and some of us just can’t handle those one-off larger cuts. I tried numerous times to cut my 5mg dose by just 0.25mg and every time I would face-plant because I just couldn't tolerate the insomnia even after a couple of weeks. I just wasn't prepared to put myself through that constant trauma. For me, a daily reduction plan worked much better and mostly I'm symptom free, except for when my impatience gets the better of me.

 

However, for those who choose to follow the cut and hold plan, I really hope everything goes well for you and you have minimal s/x.

 

Thank you very much, Diaz-Pam. That is very sweet of you. I hope the very same for you.    No matter what way we choose to taper we all have the same end goal, don't we? To be benzo free and to get on with our lives. But, wow, what a ride in the meantime!

 

 

koko 

 

[[No...]]

thanks, Im a old pro.... 2000 mgs a day sometimes

 

Benzy & D21,

 

I can't be 100% sure but I think I had a bad reaction to magnesium. In my sig you can see where I got hit really, really hard. I had started taking chelated magnesium the week before that happened. I stopped the magnesium once I realized that maybe it could have been the reason I was slammed so badly out of seemingly nowhere. The next night I started feeling better. The night after that I felt even better.

 

Coincidence? Or do you think that maybe it's possible it was the magnesium?

 

I don't know the first thing about magnesium. Obviously.

 

 

koko

 

Nothing surprises me in benzo withdrawal, koko. You may have had a reaction to the magnesium. I think our bodies go into some kind of bizarro hyper-alert where they don't know friends from foes for a while.

 

I'm not sure that means magnesium is off-limits for you, however.

 

Early on in my taper, I ate some almonds and broke out in itchy hives. I thought, "Great, I have a nut allergy now."

 

Well, I love almonds, so the next night, I ate them again (yes, I was prepared to die for almonds, lol). Nothing happened. I haven't had a problem since.

 

I think my whacky benzo-withdrawal brain sent my body a false message ... like it was nodding off on the job, woke up confused, and pressed the wrong button or something...? It just so happened that I was eating nuts at the time. On a different day, it might have been milk or an aspirin or magnesium.

 

What happened when you took the magnesium? New symptoms? Or revving up of the usual ones?

 

 

[[...]]

thanks, Im a old pro.... 2000 mgs a day sometimes

 

Benzy & D21,

 

I can't be 100% sure but I think I had a bad reaction to magnesium. In my sig you can see where I got hit really, really hard. I had started taking chelated magnesium the week before that happened. I stopped the magnesium once I realized that maybe it could have been the reason I was slammed so badly out of seemingly nowhere. The next night I started feeling better. The night after that I felt even better.

 

Coincidence? Or do you think that maybe it's possible it was the magnesium?

 

 

I don't know the first thing about magnesium. Obviously.

 

 

koko

 

Koko when you say bad reaction what did you feel?

[[Be...]]

Koko, what were your symptoms?

personally, I have "felt"  "something".. occassionally after taking it, or a epsom salt bath, the bath seems to effect me more than 2000 mgs orally, for some reason, I think cause the water gets in my mouth and leaves that "metallic taste, which reminds me of the beginning of a anxiety attack, that also happens with a anxiety attack with me. so my awfulizing brain kicks in and I have had a bit of trouble like that....

it has given me kinda of a "saturated wet floaty feeling" (orally) at times,,,, it is a relaxant to your muscles and such, I guess thats just the "feeling" it can produce, which would be normal, but in withdrawals and being sensitive to how we feel, it can mess with your head, and set of anxiety I think, thats happened before, but I was able to put 2 and 2 together and ride it out just fine... I also stop taking it occassionally if Im in a place where that would happen, then pick it back up later when I feel more stable in my taper.....

 

maybe this is what you experienced...

[[Be...]]

thats GREAT DPam!!!!!

 

I guess since this thread is about the Ashton taper, we arent "tip toeing" as carefully as we would on another thread, but we certainly dont mean any disrespect towards anyone just because we're a little more lax with our definitions of the different tapers, thats all....

[[Di...]]

No disrespect taken. I just wanted to point out that a lot of people seem to assume that those who aren't following the Ashton cut and hold tapering method are automatically doing a much slower taper, when in fact they aren't. Ironically sometimes it can actually be a faster taper than a cut and hold taper because you aren't waiting for s/x to diminish as much. I know for me my initial 1mg cut was a lot quicker than if I had done it as a cut and hold taper.

 

The term "micro-taper" is actually one that was coined by a different benzo website and isn't a term that is condoned on BB, although it is often used, because the definition is too ambiguous and misleading. Daily taper says what it is on the tin, so there can’t be any confusion over what it actually means.

 

However, as koko said, the only thing that is really important is that we all reach that ultimate goal of zero. How we get there is really unimportant, as long as the process was manageable.

[[Be...]]

well I think I make up my own abbreviations as I go, and none of them are probably accurate, to anyon except my brain, they make sense to me tho 

[[os...]]

 

 

I might join the Ashton club soon.

 

The other method isn't working any longer... I'll never be free at this rate.

 

I might crawl for another year... not decided yet.

 

I NEED INPUT ON EXPERIENCES WITH ASHTON CUTS PEOPLE, PLEASE GIVE ME SOME FEED BACK.

 

If you take a cut and say, you get a panic attack and bad shakes and stuff, when does that stuff settle?

 

Is it possible to get stable between these cuts?

 

What if a cut is a bad one?

 

Just wait it out?

 

Thanks y'all. 

[[...]]

Bart

Congratulations you are done!!

When you say you could not go lower then 2mg V and started micro,did you try to cut the 2mg into 1/4 or less? I am just curious trying to understand, soon I will be reaching 2mg V .

D21

 

Hi D21

Thanks. I've been done about a week now and have no symptoms most of the time. My initial taper was from 2-4mg of Ativan a day to .7mg at a rate much faster than Ashton, around 3-4 weeks. When symptoms cropped up I crossed to Valium and followed the Ashton tables down to 2mg. I felt a bit rough at 2mg and went to 1.7 for a week and then 1.5 for a week. My next cut was to 1.25 which I was only on for a couple days feeling like hell. Afraid I would have to take a long leave of absence from work and becoming dysfunctional, I really researched the subject and was significantly aided by BB. This led to my game plan for doing this with minimal symptoms if possible. I next did a mix of updosing, holding and tapering up until I again felt well. This took me back to 1.78mg. From here, I just tapered at whatever rate kept me with just some modest symptoms all the way down. Much of my long time from 2mg to 0 could have certainly been due to recovering from my overly rapid initial taper or maybe I had something like a mini-protracted condition. I'll never really know. I would expect a lot of people would be able to do the last bit a whole lot faster than me, maybe even at the Ashton rates. Just listen to your body and come on down however you  need to. There is really no "best way" to do this, as we all seem to vary so much. Supplements seemed to help me along with lots of rest, good diet, meditation, etc. I've always thought the benefits of exercise in benzodiazepine withdrawal are under appreciated and I really went for it when I was able to work out. Remember, the Ashton tables will get a very high percentage of people off benzos and doing all this baloney I did for the last couple of milligrams will most likely not be necessary for you. But if you are in the minority and hit some kind of brick wall at the lower doses, there are other options so you will not need to suffer unduly. Happy tapering and we'll see you at 0, fit and sassy.

Bart

[[Be...]]

Osco, wheres that damn post I said I was gonna put up in your face lol......

 

Come on join the club Osco... you have read the manual right?

[[os...]]

Osco, wheres that damn post I said I was gonna put up in your face lol......

 

Come on join the club Osco... you have read the manual right?

 

Yep, I read the manual... I am just scared of losing the plot if I make a bigger cut...

 

Will my head explode?

 

It's like, last small cut, baaaaad headache for 2 days, hot face... inner vibrations in the legs, I have had far worse and just wondered if Ashton cuts will cause millions of bugs to run around under my skin, my eyes to melt and to start seeing stuff and generally not know what planet I am on...

 

Does that make sense?

 

Will I freak out???

 

 

[[Be...]]

yes but thats easy enough to handle, just get a large can of Raid, one of those night time eye mask that you can refridgerate and a map, before you cut...thats what Id do...