Z-Drug Support Group (Lunesta, Imovane, Zimovane, Ambien, Sonata, Zopiclone)

[[Mi...]]

Hi,

 

I am hoping to get some help from this group. I am pretty lost right now. I have been taking about 40-50mg of Ambien (working my way up from 2mg at the beginning) for about 15 years. I clearly reached tolerance years ago and would wake up in the middle of the night sweating and thought it was perimenopause. I have taken other benzos along the way but nothing consistent. Valium here and there for anxiety and some of the others but very sporadically. I liked valium the most because i got NO side fx when it went out of my system. Last spring I switched from Celexa to Prozac as it had stopped working. Prozac worked but I didn't like how numb it made me feel. I was switched to Zoloft on Sept 14th and it gave me insane anxiety and nausea. After 2 weeks of it not getting better I was switched to 5mg of Lexapro. It was hellish too but is now better. My doc gave me .5 ativan to help with the SSRI induced anxiety and i realized after being on it for 3 weeks that my body has become addicted to it. In the last 3 nights i have tapered down on Ambien and as of last night i took 20mg of Ambien 1mg of Ativan and 5mg of Diazepam and did ok. I woke up with anxiety and help off til 10am til i took .5 of Ativan and have been fine all day except for the morning nausea and anxiety.

It is now evening and i am thinking of repeating the same tonight. What i would like to do is actually skip the Ativan and see if the 20mg of Ambien and 5mg of valium does the trick.

Sorry this is so long and all over the place, but i would love to just take ativan out of the equation since it hasn't been that long and just deal with the Ambien using Diazepam and switch over and eventually taper off Diazepam slowly. I know this may be me being naive and i am so mad that i added Ativan in a few weeks ago because I feel like it has changed the game. I would love any advice you have. A schedule for tapering, order of drug tapering, etc. Also i have heard so much conflicting info on if i even need to switch to Diazepam or if i should just try to cut down Ambien on it's own. Any help is so so appreciated.

 

Thank you!

[[La...]]

Frida welcome to Team Z! Sorry to hear about your struggles. Sounds to me like your brain and body is reacting to being exposed to this and that kinds of pills while also being in tolerance of Ambien. Your body is really talking to you. My suggestion is to listen to it. I’m not sure exactly what you should do but perhaps the polydrug or tapering threads might be able to assist you in making an informed decision as to the best approach in getting off your medications. I do know from the Ashton manual that it might be beneficial for you to switch over to Valium. But that is to be a gradual crossover. This seems the thing to do IMO because the Valium is already helping you. It’s also longer acting and could help buffer your symptoms. You’re right to be careful doing this to obtain the correct equivalence. My advice is to reach out on the taper threads or cross over threads. I wish you the best! And well done lowering your ambien to 20 mg.

Hugs 🤗

[[Mi...]]

Thank you for this response. I will move this over to one of the other groups!

[[He...]]

MissFrida,

 

Nice job lowering your Ambien. I know that's not easy. I took different Z Drugs but I know several on this board took Ambien.  I was like you years ago toying around with different Benzos and Z drugs.  I'm sure the taper threads can be of good help to you.  My approach was to eliminate one med at a time.  It was hard but it needed to be done. I was on heavy doses and various things and I am now 16 1/2 months off of everything.  I couldn't be happier to have accomplished it.  Get a good plan in place and be ready to be flexible with it as you go.  I hope the best for you!

 

Helen

 

[[Mi...]]

Thanks. I took just 20mg of Ambien and 5mg of Diazepam last night and slept well but i am feeling the lack of Ativan today. I feel nauseous and and anxious and exhausted. I am so so bummed i added that to the mix. I keep thinking I can push through without it but i don't think i can .

[[Ge...]]

Hi,

 

I am hoping to get some help from this group. I am pretty lost right now. I have been taking about 40-50mg of Ambien (working my way up from 2mg at the beginning) for about 15 years. I clearly reached tolerance years ago and would wake up in the middle of the night sweating and thought it was perimenopause. I have taken other benzos along the way but nothing consistent. Valium here and there for anxiety and some of the others but very sporadically. I liked valium the most because i got NO side fx when it went out of my system. Last spring I switched from Celexa to Prozac as it had stopped working. Prozac worked but I didn't like how numb it made me feel. I was switched to Zoloft on Sept 14th and it gave me insane anxiety and nausea. After 2 weeks of it not getting better I was switched to 5mg of Lexapro. It was hellish too but is now better. My doc gave me .5 ativan to help with the SSRI induced anxiety and i realized after being on it for 3 weeks that my body has become addicted to it. In the last 3 nights i have tapered down on Ambien and as of last night i took 20mg of Ambien 1mg of Ativan and 5mg of Diazepam and did ok. I woke up with anxiety and help off til 10am til i took .5 of Ativan and have been fine all day except for the morning nausea and anxiety.

It is now evening and i am thinking of repeating the same tonight. What i would like to do is actually skip the Ativan and see if the 20mg of Ambien and 5mg of valium does the trick.

Sorry this is so long and all over the place, but i would love to just take ativan out of the equation since it hasn't been that long and just deal with the Ambien using Diazepam and switch over and eventually taper off Diazepam slowly. I know this may be me being naive and i am so mad that i added Ativan in a few weeks ago because I feel like it has changed the game. I would love any advice you have. A schedule for tapering, order of drug tapering, etc. Also i have heard so much conflicting info on if i even need to switch to Diazepam or if i should just try to cut down Ambien on it's own. Any help is so so appreciated.

 

Thank you! >>>>

 

 

Hi MissFrida and welcome to the forum! If my response seems a bit disjointed, I apologize in advance as I am really not really cognitively with it right now (and it is possible I am missing a lot in what you wrote because I am so out of it, but the following are just general impressions.)  First of all, it seems that you are at least sleeping decently on the Ambien, Valium/Diazepam, and Ativan mixture which is at least a start and ahead of where I was (I wasn't even sleeping all that great on the pills to begin with --- like 4 or 4.5 hours max).

 

      This is really none of my business --- but I'm assuming there is an underlying medical reason for the SSRI?  Just going by the medications listed, I'm assuming that these medications are for a combination of sleep and anxiety and that it was most likely prescribed by a psychiatrist.  In general, with medications, it is important to get down to the basics and only take what you need. Like the other poster stated, it gets very complicated when there are multiple medications involved/polypharmacy, because not only does it become difficult for you or your practitioner to tell whether the problem is a side effect of the medication or part of an underlying psych disorder  (this seems true with psychiatry in general even if you are only on one medication) but on multiple medications, it seems difficult to tell which medications are causing the side effects!  For this reason alone and also to limit your withdrawal symptoms from coming off the medications, if you are tapering, it is important to only taper one medication at a time. Don't for example, try to taper the Ativan and Ambien, or the SSRI and one of the benzos or Ambien at the same time.

 

      When tapering, it seems most people on this forum shave their pills. I didn't do that. I had to taper off high quantities of Z drugs...  I was on 3 mg Eszopiclone (Lunesta) in the beginning of the night and 10 mg Zaleplon (Sonata) in the middle of the night.  I was seeing a psychiatrist who was actually a subspecialist in Sleep Medicine and here is how he tapered me:

 

        We started with the Sonata. Usually Sonata pills are available in 5mg, 10 mg and (though it was not relevant to me because I wasn't on the highest amount ) 20 mg.  The first step with the Sonata was for me to make the jump to the next lowest dose down.  So for the 1st week, instead of 10 mg in the middle of the night every night, I took 10 mg for the first two nights, but 5 mg the 3rd night.  During the 2nd week of the month, I then took Zaleplon 10mg one night, followed by Zaleplon 5 mg the 2nd night. The 3rd week of the month, I took Sonata 10 mg for one night, and then the 5 mg dose for the next two nights. By the fourth week of the month, I was taking Sonata 5 mg every night.

 

        I used the same pattern to jump from the Sonata 5 mg to no Sonata in the middle of the night.  After getting off the Sonata (the sleeping pill that I took in the middle of the night ) I used the same method to taper off the Lunesta/ the pill I took in the beginning of the night.  Lunesta is available in 3 doses (1 mg, 2 mg and 3 mg) and I was on the highest dose. 1st week took Lunesta 3 mg for two nights in a row then the 2 mg dose the 3rd night. Second week took the 3 mg dose one night followed by the 2 mg dose the next night. 3rd week took the 3mg dose of Lunesta one day followed by two days in a row of Lunesta 2mg.  The 4th week I took the Lunesta 2 mg dose every night.

 

      I repeated all this until I got down to no sleep medications. The good thing is you can also tailor this method to you... meaning let's say all of sudden you are getting bad withdrawal symptoms. You can hold at any one particular level you want for an additional one or multiple weeks.  All and all, I took about 5-6 months to get off all the Z drugs.

 

        I don't know too much about benzos or whether you would need longer to get off the benzos. However, my guess is IF you want to avoid crossing over to the Diazepam (which would involve increasing the Diazepam )  you could use this method to slowly get off the Ambien. I think if you are not completely crossing over to Diazepam and are going to taper both the Ambien and Diazepam, you should target the Ambien first because it is the drug with the shorter half life and the longer acting Diazepam will shield you a little bit from your sleep becoming much worse while you gradually taper your Ambien.

 

That said, you were taking 40 mg- 50 mg of Ambien for several years. You do realize that normal doses for Ambien are 5mg and 10 mg so you were easily taking 4x -5x the FDA recommended dose. That means that you "could" possibly have a much more complicated withdrawal than someone taking normal doses of Ambien. I'm not saying that is a fact, but it is best to psychologically prepare yourself ahead of time that this is the long haul and might involve not only an extended taper but it may take several months to a year after getting off all the drugs for your sleep and anxiety to stabilize. Now, if it is easier/better than that, GREAT (I'm not saying it will definitely happen) but at least you have psychologically prepared yourself for the worst so when your 3 months off all the benzos/Z drugs and your anxiety is bad, you'll know it is temporary/ to be expected and not necessarily part of some underlying condition or you're crazy, etc.  Hopefully, doing a slow taper and saving the diazepam for last will help ameliorate some of the worst withdrawal symptoms.

[[Mi...]]

Thank you so much for this. I will follow your lead on dropping down on the sleep meds, though I need to figure out how they equate to Ambien. The big mistake i made was going on Ativan. It has only been 3 weeks but it was enough to put me into interdose withdrawl. I would LOVE to get that out of the picture first so I'm not on 3 drugs. Keeping it to Ambien and Diazepam seemed so much simpler. I keep thinking 3 weeks means it should easier but my body is really dependent on it. I only take 2 doses of .50mg each a day not 3 and i hope i can keep it that way. All of this just scares the shit out of me.

 

As for the SSRI i had been on Prozac for anxiety and depression and it made me numb so in Sept i was switched to Zoloft which i hated and then to lexapro which also made me anxious and nauseous. hence the Ativan. I think most of that is gone now and the anxiety and nausea are from interdose withdrawals now but but who knows. I wont be going up or tapering of Lexapro until all of this other shit is done, though!

[[Mi...]]

One other question: What about nights 4-7 of each week?

 

 

        We started with the Sonata. Usually Sonata pills are available in 5mg, 10 mg and (though it was not relevant to me because I wasn't on the highest amount ) 20 mg.  The first step with the Sonata was for me to make the jump to the next lowest dose down.  So for the 1st week, instead of 10 mg in the middle of the night every night, I took 10 mg for the first two nights, but 5 mg the 3rd night.  During the 2nd week of the month, I then took Zaleplon 10mg one night, followed by Zaleplon 5 mg the 2nd night. The 3rd week of the month, I took Sonata 10 mg for one night, and then the 5 mg dose for the next two nights. By the fourth week of the month, I was taking Sonata 5 mg every night.

[[Ge...]]

Yes, I agree with you. I think you should get off the Ativan first. It appears that it has been causing you nothing but trouble and apparently is backfiring on you and causing you bad interdose withdrawal/anxiety. Ativan is also a short-acting benzo which is why it is causing you all the interdose withdrawal.

 

It seems 0.5 is the lowest dose of Ativan and you are taking two doses per day, so you could start this whole process by first eliminating one dose of the Ativan and then the other.

 

By the way, even if you are not getting direct advice from your prescriber on HOW to taper, I think you should inform your current practitioner that you are tapering and have him/her monitor you during the taper. The reason I say that is the biggest danger in getting off the Z drugs/benzos particularly the benzos is if you do it TOO FAST or just go cold turkey, you could have a seizure. For that reason, I always think it is best to have a practitioner of some kind (whether it is a sleep doctor, primary care doctor or psychiatrist ) involved in this process and at least monitoring you.

 

<<<One other question: What about nights 4-7 of each week?

 

 

        We started with the Sonata. Usually Sonata pills are available in 5mg, 10 mg and (though it was not relevant to me because I wasn't on the highest amount ) 20 mg.  The first step with the Sonata was for me to make the jump to the next lowest dose down.  So for the 1st week, instead of 10 mg in the middle of the night every night, I took 10 mg for the first two nights, but 5 mg the 3rd night.  During the 2nd week of the month, I then took Zaleplon 10mg one night, followed by Zaleplon 5 mg the 2nd night. The 3rd week of the month, I took Sonata 10 mg for one night, and then the 5 mg dose for the next two nights. By the fourth week of the month, I was taking Sonata 5 mg every night.

>>>>

 

      Well, for example if I was going down from Sonata 10 mg to 5mg :  I could do 1st week -  10 mg the 1st two nights, followed by 5 mg the 3rd and repeat nights 4-6. Since there are seven days in a week, depending on how you are feeling, on the 7th night you could just do the 10 mg, 10mg , 5 mg one last time or just starting the 7th day do the one night higher dose, one night lower dose pattern of the 2nd week.  I did the latter. It is obviously imperfect because there are a non-even number of days in a week. But I think you get the general idea. I think if there is any question, you should let how much withdrawal symptoms you are getting be your guide.

 

My only hesitation in giving you advice is that I'm not sure if with the benzos (the Ativan and Diazepam), you should go even slower. May be worth asking your practitioner. With the Ambien, you are currently on 20 mg. Typical doses are 5 mg and 10mg, so you go down from 10 mg to 5 mg to nothing.  Now what do you from the 20 mg to the 10 mg? I guess you could go down from 20 mg to 15 mg to 10 mg or since there is no 15 mg dose of Ambien ( you are probably taking multiples of 10 mg to get your 20 mg or 40-50 mg doses ), you could jump from 20 mg Ambien to 10 mg, but if that is too big of a jump, you can always spend extra weeks holding at each level of the pill pattern as you go from the 20 mg to 10 mg, so it doesn't feel like such a big jump.

 

If there is any question, it is probably better to go slower than faster because of the possibility of withdrawal effects, esp. seizures. I also strongly advise you to have a practitioner monitor this process. I know some people here do this completely on their own, but I would feel totally irresponsible to advise you any different.

 

 

[[Li...]]

Ha Z team,

Today I have not much in my agenda. I tapered a bit last night. I have less than a crumb to go. I feel not good, but at least I made a new step forwards. Yesterday I went swimming, so not today. I am watching some tv.

Huggs Jerry 

[[La...]]

Jerry that is great. You will be jumping soon. I’m very proud of your progress.

Hugs 🤗

[[He...]]

Jerry,

 

You're getting there! I'm sorry you aren't feeling well and I understand.  Maybe some nice rest today will help you.

 

Jb,

 

I hope you are not still suffering so greatly. I'm thinking of you.

 

Lady Den,

 

I left you a message on the BC thread.  SOOO mad and sad about how you are feeling.  Sending love from this thread too.

 

I'm in the middle of my beach trip and just wanted to check in.  The first two days were very rough physically. Yesterday was good and today is starting out rough but not as bad as Saturday and Sunday. It's beautiful here so I'm trying to let the sounds and sights of the ocean help me heal.

 

Sending my best to all of you,

Helen

[[La...]]

Thank you Helen 🙏 it’s rough!  :'(

[[...]]

Thank you Helen🙏

It also really rough here. I have so much severe burning nerve pain in head, arms and legs, hands and feet. I just try to be in it, breathing, minute by minute and hope and pray it will get better at some point. I meditate. I try to exercise a little on my roing machine, when I can. I eat so healthy that I started to make green smoothies. But until now, nothing helps.

I am happy to hear that you can enjoy your beach trip, in spite...

I look forward to the day, where I can get out again🙏

I had a lot of blood work done today. Everything was fine - so at least...

Sending you all love and healing

Jørgen

[[Li...]]

Ha Jørgen, I wish for you that today is better.    My day is tough too again, today is the second day of a new taper step. My last bit has now the size of a very tiny cube. I am also doubting about my saxlesson today. I wish I could write more here, like others, but I can only do a tiny bit. I have just little to say.

Huggs J 

[[...]]

Thanks Jerry

Today is not good as well. Actually, I don't have any windows at all. I have a lot of nerve pain, headache and shaking. It feels like my CNS is just overexitatory, which I guess it is...

Hang in there

Hugs, Jørgen

[[La...]]

Team Z hugs and feel better wishes to us all.

 

[[Li...]]

Thank you LadyDen,

I did my saxlesson, but today with my digital sax, I have a small chap in lip, so it is not ok to play on my normal saxophones then. I can really feel I did a taper step, more boatiness and depression feeling.

Hug Jerry 

[[La...]]

Jerry I know what you mean about feeling reductions. I remember when I was tapering, I’d count the days because on day 3 or 4 I would feel it for about 2-3 days. By the time it faded out and I could enjoy the relief for a couple of days, it was time to cut again. The good news is that you’re almost done. Yay! Have you set a jump date? You’re at a crumb now so it could be anytime now.

Hugs 🤗

 

Morning Team Z! I hope today is a good day of relief for us all. We all have been feeling bad for awhile. Time for some good windows, right? Now, where’s that window fairy? I’ve got a net to catch her because she’s being stingy with giving out those lovely windows.

Love and hugs ❤️🤗

[[Li...]]

Jerry I know what you mean about feeling reductions. I remember when I was tapering, I’d count the days because on day 3 or 4 I would feel it for about 2-3 days. By the time it faded out and I could enjoy the relief for a couple of days, it was time to cut again. The good news is that you’re almost done. Yay! Have you set a jump date? You’re at a crumb now so it could be anytime now.

Hugs 🤗

 

Morning Team Z! I hope today is a good day of relief for us all. We all have been feeling bad for awhile. Time for some good windows, right? Now, where’s that window fairy? I’ve got a net to catch her because she’s being stingy with giving out those lovely windows.

Love and hugs ❤️🤗

 

Ha LadyDen,

No jumpdate yet. But yes, I am getting very close now. Why hurry… I want to make the transition as smooth as possible…. 😉👊🏻👍🏻

[[La...]]

Jerry 

It is YOUR decision. I’m cheering you on.

[[Li...]]

Jerry 

It is YOUR decision. I’m cheering you on.

 

Yes, I agree. Anyway, thanks for motivating me.

 

[[La...]]

Always my friend Jerry…..

[[Li...]]

Ha Z group,

Today, monday, is the day that my cleaning woman comes. She will be here in an hour. i am lucky to have her help. I am having a tough morning as always. It is windy today, after some very calm days. My exhibition is over, yesterday we picked up up my paintings from the gallery, they are now in my home again. No other plans for today. The autumn holiday is over, so the swimming pool is closed today.  Tapering wise; I am still on my very tiny zopiclon cube.

Huggs Jerry 

[[He...]]

Good morning Z drug friends.  Jerry, I'm sorry your mornings are still rough. I understand! What will do this winter for exercise without the swimming? Do you go to an indoor pool during the winter?  I hope you feel better and can relax today.

 

Jb, I know you are still suffering and I'm sending you best wishes for some sort of improvements soon. 

 

Lady Den, are you getting any breaks?  Is the wave still roaring? I so hope not. I know sometimes weekends are hard on you.

 

I'm back from my 9 day beach trip and better for it, I think.  The first few days were ROUGH. I had deep and severe body aches and tingling and palpitations plus extremely loud tinnitus.  But after a few days, I started into a good window. I wasn't symptom free but I definitely felt much better and was able to do a lot of beach walking and went to restaurants and visited with a friend. This is an unprecedented improvement for me.  I've now had 5 mostly good days in a row which I've not had at all in YEARS.  We'll see how today goes. I'm not sleeping very well but it doesn't seem to matter. Does that happen to anyone here?  Sleep going bad but it not mattering much?

 

Hugs to all and anyone I missed who might be reading today.