Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[Be...]]

 

 

Benzolottie I'm so glad I've found a fellow stenosis sufferer here on BBs.  Have you had surgery? They want to send me first to the pain doctor to have injections but no thank you , because I don't want needles so close to my spinal cord and I hear it hurts a lot and then many people can't see any benefit from it, so I won't do it. I have very bad pain in arms, hands, shoulders, however I think my lumbar stenosis is more dangerous due to loss of strength in my legs. I can hardly stand for one minute, I carry a little folding chair everywhere to stand in lines in shops and hospitals. I tried a walker but it forces me to walk bent so that's no good. The neurosurgeon saw my MRI from two years ago and he said it's still not operatable, however I have done a recent MRI and I'm taking it to him this Wednesday, to see what he says. I hope I can get surgery. I'm very scared of surgery because as you know, sometimes you can come out worse than you were, but I have to give it a try because this lack of srength in legs is a sign I think that this is not going to be reversible without surgery. I've tried everything else already, pilates, yoga, etc. Now I'm in such bad condition concerning my lumbar vertebrae that even doing abs makes me limp severely and have leg cramps the day after. Walking is good, but as my legs have no strength, I'm forcing the knee tendons even by only standing, not to mention walking, and then my knees are hurting badly and I'm afraid this will also end up in a knee injury due to the lack of strength in legs because the nerve is pinched and it doesn't send the signal for the muscles to work.

 

I have a big posterocentral herniated disc in s1l5 and then two bulging in l4l5 and l4 l3 and degenerative discs in those three discs and he basically said I have the back of a 70 year old. The lack of strength is scarier than the pain. I hope he says they can operate. I see him wednesday. Then in three weeks I see another neurosurgeon, to have both opinions.

 

I bought something similar to this for my neck and it has literally just arrived, I wonder what you think of it.

 

https://www.wish.com/product/5c9ddec48de7960e622f6641?hide_login_modal=true&from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=ES&_force_currency_code=EUR&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5c9ddec48de7960e622f6641&ad_cc=ES&ad_lang=EN&ad_curr=EUR&ad_price=6.00&campaign_id=9044277795&exclude_install=true&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-LOEBhDCARIsABrC0TmX9C99Vchv4Vpmcz85t_Rpes7dW6-RM0C5_EF4lkwqQlww1tLwwF0aAnBBEALw_wcB&share=web

 

I saw a neurosurgeon when I still lived in MD, and he advised not having surgery done. He gave me some recommendations on dealing with my spine issues. My stenosis is fairly mild. My mom and brother (both now deceased) had a more severe form. It's apparently inherited. My mom did have back surgery. It was her Neurosurgeon I saw. When I moved to DE is when I began seeing the Physiatrist at the pain management clinic. I had all the injections done. I didn't have any bad pain from the injections, but they gave me Versed while doing them using a type of fluoroscope as a guide (It is actually a machine that was co-invented by my Physiatrist, he has a patent on it). Then they used flumazenil to reverse the Versed when they were done, and gave me an ice pack while I waited in recovery. The effects of the injections don't last long, so I repeated them two more times.

 

I responded so well to the injections that my Physiatrist said I was a good candidate for the RFA I had done. The RFA procedures were successful, and I've done fairly well. Pain is minor, so I use the Lidocaine 5% to keep it down. I have degenerative disc disease and one is partially herniated. I'll probably need a laminectomy and/or discectomy at some point. I've been putting off hip replacement surgery for years, I have bilateral hip dysplasia and my right hip was injured in a car accident, drunk driver hit me. It's not giving me pain, though it's pretty well shot at this point. My mobility has been limited for some time.

 

My mom had developed mobility issues due to her stenosis and DDD. Her back pain got worse and her legs got weak, she bought a walker, ended up using it post-surgery until she healed. That's why she ended up having surgery. It was the right decision for her, it gave her over two decades of a better quality of life. She didn't need NSAID's for pain anymore. But as she reached her 80's, the pain returned. There was nothing they could do surgically for her, she eventually ended up on Dilaudid at bedtime so she could at least sleep, plus one dose during the day. She was on a low dose, it was enough to allow her to still function. And she got a rollator to help her get around.

 

It sounds to me like it's time for surgery for you. I hope the two neurosurgeons agree. Your quality of life has diminished, from what you tell me. Yes, it's scary, but in the hands of a reputable, skilled, surgeon, you  should do fine.

 

Never seen a device like the one in your link. I use pillows as needed, a gel ice wrap that is stored in my freezer, and I have one of those wraps with a vibrator built in. Let me know how that works for you.

[[Mo...]]

VNM,

I only speak here out of utmost love and concern....please consider before taking Tramadol long term, though I know in the short term they might be needed and helpful.  I have another friend who was put on Ativan due to severe withdrawal symptoms from the Opioids she had taken for years (before the dangers were known) - while what she was on was a stronger one than Tramadol, the withdrawal symptoms were quite severe and similar to benzos, even though she tapered.  She went into tolerance to those and the symptoms began before she started tapering.  Now she is trying to taper Ativan, all while suffering from previous pharmacological damage.  I'm so sorry for your pain and hope you can find some lasting relief somehow. 

[[Ca...]]

I feel for you guys.. It all a little close to home, but I kinda feel somewhat lucky..

 

Val, I dont really have anything to add to whats been said, -Just that Tramadol will probs mask many direct Benzo sx quite well, as pain meds tend to do from my experience..

And if Tramadol is problematic, ie. nausea that its well known for in certain people, then a pain med specialist will find a better option.. There are so many options now, and some quite specialised in how they work..

 

Anyways, just a HI, and another crippled hug to add to the list..

-So sorry to hear of your struggles..

 

Wishing you better days ahead..

 

Hi Cantfly, thanks for joining us. I was thinking of you as I know you've gone through such a physical ordeal. I appreciate your concern. So you don't see any problem with tramadol and benzo withdrawal either? It doesn't give me any nausea. It doesn't do wonders for the pain either but better than paracetamol for sure, and without destroying my stomach like NSAIDs do. I hope your sons are doing fine and that life is giving you a break.

Ummm, errr.. -You did state you didnt want to hear the negatives of Tramadol, and I sure get that, it allowed the positive support to flow, but as Momof7 (being braver than I) mentions, -they are there and prudent to consider..

Personally I found the comments from Dr Pert to be horrifically naive at best... But I guess it depends on perspective.. It might be more applicable to those that fall into the general medical industries ideas on Benzo WD parameters, -ie. 4x 25% reductions over a month or so, and a few weeks of poor sleep and some shakes till back to “good as gold”.. I get that not everyone has my problems, but I have found enough that do, both online and in life, to know opioids can be very similar to a nasty benzo experience (along with other meds like antidepressants).. What applies to who is the question..

 

The trouble is that obviously you have serious issues that need to be managed, or better, resolved..

Opioids will have their role in that, but I would be remiss to suggest they will provide a successful endgame.. -Well not without the likely potential for serious complications somewhere down the track..

I dont think that equates to “you should suffer through no matter what”, but I would suggest following up on any non-opioid options to help resolve or minimise pain and function issues into the future..

 

I mentioned I felt “lucky”, -that was because my spinal injuries were “fresh” and I a fighting fit 37yo at the time.. Thats a bit different to more “degenerative” conditions, so I hesitate to compare too much, or presume “I know”.. I had extensive surgeries, not without their issues, such as systemic infection, broken plates and failed bone grafting, but we got there and the outcome was great.. I have less pain than most buddies, even those without spinal issues.. Yes the oxy is masking some pain, but my slow tapering has allowed my med tolerance to also reduce as I go, maintaining some effectiveness.. The damage the pain meds have caused is the hold up.. fwiw..

 

Ps. Tramadol was my first oral pain med in hospital, also my first ER visit due to WD from forgetting.. I thought I had ruptured my bowel again, and no one even mentioned WD there.. Just I took my scheduled Tramadol while there and was good to go 40min later.. Oh to wind back the clock knowing what I know now..

Val, I would suggest take what You know now and work with the appropriate specialists for a long term solution, while keeping an ever watchful eye on their advices.. Not to discount also the suggestions from Buddies here that have similar experiences and found things to help..

 

Hope this helps a little,

Wishing you the best..

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Can't,

Thanks for pointing out that she didn't want to hear horror stories.  Somehow, that got lost when I saw this thread. 

 

Val,

Sorry about that.  Dr. Anna Lemke would be a good resource possibly.

[[Be...]]

Ummm, errr.. -You did state you didnt want to hear the negatives of Tramadol, and I sure get that, it allowed the positive support to flow, but as Momof7 (being braver than I) mentions, -they are there and prudent to consider..

Personally I found the comments from Dr Pert to be horrifically naive at best... But I guess it depends on perspective.. It might be more applicable to those that fall into the general medical industries ideas on Benzo WD parameters, -ie. 4x 25% reductions over a month or so, and a few weeks of poor sleep and some shakes till back to “good as gold”.. I get that not everyone has my problems, but I have found enough that do, both online and in life, to know opioids can be very similar to a nasty benzo experience (along with other meds like antidepressants).. What applies to who is the question..

 

The trouble is that obviously you have serious issues that need to be managed, or better, resolved..

Opioids will have their role in that, but I would be remiss to suggest they will provide a successful endgame.. -Well not without the likely potential for serious complications somewhere down the track..

I dont think that equates to “you should suffer through no matter what”, but I would suggest following up on any non-opioid options to help resolve or minimise pain and function issues into the future..

 

 

 

 

Are you familiar with Dr Pert? Hi story is featured on the same website that hosts Professor Ashton's manual. https://www.benzo.org.uk/peartbio.htm He is now a leading expert on benzos, and has his own website dedicated to benzos. http://benzosupport.org/dr_reg_peart.htm Val only wanted to know if Tramadol would interfere with WD symptoms. I gave her an answer from an expert. I also suggested options that enabled me to get off 20 years of opiates, including fentanyl at one point (That's when I saw the Neurosurgeon and he gave me tips that enabled me to stop using fentanyl patches, and gradually switch to a lesser opiate). And I saw a pain management specialist who did RFA, eliminating the majority of my pain and need for opiates. I had already been reducing my doses during the 4 years I went there for treatment.

 

I also didn't have the experience Momof7's friend had. After I took the last quarter of a 10 mg Dilaudid pill, I entered acute shortly after, for around 2 weeks, ended up in the ER due to severe dehydration from the vomiting and diarrhea, and was malnourished. I spent 12 hours there. Blood work, IV's meds, doctors asking if I was taking Methadone or Suboxone (I was 100& opiate free, taking neither of those). I was given Ativan for PAWS, 90 pills during the year of PAWS. Took maybe 70 of them randomly. Stopped when the panic attacks stopped around month 10, never had W/D from them. The restless legs was the worst symptom, it went away in month 12. This after 20 years of opiate use. Everybody's experience with opiate W/D is different, just like benzos. Know one knows Val's experience if/when the Tramadol is stopped

 

I know what chronic intractable pain is like. From what Val wrote, she is likely past injections and RFA, she is hoping for surgery. I hope that's what she gets, I shared that surgery was successful for my mom. But in the meantime she needs pain relief, and Tramadol was offered to her. She simply wanted to know if it was okay to use while W/D from benzos. Marie shared she had no issues when she needed short term use of pain meds. Reg Pert is an expert on benzos, and his quote I posted was a response to a question asked of him. He gave an honest and correct answer. Even on this board, there are people on both benzos and opiates, trying to get off both. The recommendation is to taper off the benzo first. I thought it would give Val reassurance, she was not interested in why she shouldn't use it, she didn't care about becoming addicted (though technically she would be dependent, if prescribed), she made that quite clear.

[Guest [...]]

Hi All:

 

I've been gone for a bit, was needing just to take a break.

 

About 3 weeks ago, I switched over 0.1mg of my night time Ativan dose to 1 mg of Valium

 

I've been doing well with it, but it has caused a host of other issues, that I may have to switch back.

It makes me very depressed and I'm also so itchy all the time, I just can't stand it.

I knew these two things going in, but I wanted to give it a shot.

 

So if I wanted to switch back, how would I go about doing that and over what time frame 

 

Thanks.

[[Ca...]]

Ummm, errr.. -You did state you didnt want to hear the negatives of Tramadol, and I sure get that, it allowed the positive support to flow, but as Momof7 (being braver than I) mentions, -they are there and prudent to consider..

Personally I found the comments from Dr Pert to be horrifically naive at best... But I guess it depends on perspective.. It might be more applicable to those that fall into the general medical industries ideas on Benzo WD parameters, -ie. 4x 25% reductions over a month or so, and a few weeks of poor sleep and some shakes till back to “good as gold”.. I get that not everyone has my problems, but I have found enough that do, both online and in life, to know opioids can be very similar to a nasty benzo experience (along with other meds like antidepressants).. What applies to who is the question..

 

The trouble is that obviously you have serious issues that need to be managed, or better, resolved..

Opioids will have their role in that, but I would be remiss to suggest they will provide a successful endgame.. -Well not without the likely potential for serious complications somewhere down the track..

I dont think that equates to “you should suffer through no matter what”, but I would suggest following up on any non-opioid options to help resolve or minimise pain and function issues into the future..

 

 

 

 

Are you familiar with Dr Pert? Hi story is featured on the same website that hosts Professor Ashton's manual. https://www.benzo.org.uk/peartbio.htm He is now a leading expert on benzos, and has his own website dedicated to benzos. http://benzosupport.org/dr_reg_peart.htm Val only wanted to know if Tramadol would interfere with WD symptoms. I gave her an answer from an expert. I also suggested options that enabled me to get off 20 years of opiates, including fentanyl at one point (That's when I saw the Neurosurgeon and he gave me tips that enabled me to stop using fentanyl patches, and gradually switch to a lesser opiate). And I saw a pain management specialist who did RFA, eliminating the majority of my pain and need for opiates. I had already been reducing my doses during the 4 years I went there for treatment.

 

I also didn't have the experience Momof7's friend had. After I took the last quarter of a 10 mg Dilaudid pill, I entered acute shortly after, for around 2 weeks, ended up in the ER due to severe dehydration from the vomiting and diarrhea, and was malnourished. I spent 12 hours there. Blood work, IV's meds, doctors asking if I was taking Methadone or Suboxone (I was 100& opiate free, taking neither of those). I was given Ativan for PAWS, 90 pills during the year of PAWS. Took maybe 70 of them randomly. Stopped when the panic attacks stopped around month 10, never had W/D from them. The restless legs was the worst symptom, it went away in month 12. This after 20 years of opiate use. Everybody's experience with opiate W/D is different, just like benzos. Know one knows Val's experience if/when the Tramadol is stopped

 

I know what chronic intractable pain is like. From what Val wrote, she is likely past injections and RFA, she is hoping for surgery. I hope that's what she gets, I shared that surgery was successful for my mom. But in the meantime she needs pain relief, and Tramadol was offered to her. She simply wanted to know if it was okay to use while W/D from benzos. Marie shared she had no issues when she needed short term use of pain meds. Reg Pert is an expert on benzos, and his quote I posted was a response to a question asked of him. He gave an honest and correct answer. Even on this board, there are people on both benzos and opiates, trying to get off both. The recommendation is to taper off the benzo first. I thought it would give Val reassurance, she was not interested in why she shouldn't use it, she didn't care about becoming addicted (though technically she would be dependent, if prescribed), she made that quite clear.

Great..!! -You liked Perts “thoughts”... -I didnt, and found them somewhat lacking..

 

[[th...]]

I'm feeling stuck how to proceed with my taper.  I direct cut 1 mg. two weeks ago to get from 10 to 9 mg.  My 9 mg. are divided into four doses of 2.5, 2, 2, and 2.5 mgs spaced 4.5 hours apart.  I had to do this to alleviate nausea.  Nausea is gone now, hopefully it stays away!  So, for my next taper should I:

1.  Try to equalize my doses by tapering the AM and PM doses down to 2 mg each,

2.  Get rid of the 2 mg third dose.  This is usually around 5 pm and is the dose I seem to miss the least (had to set an alarm to remind myself to take it).

 

Any thoughts?  Thank you!

[[Br...]]

I'm feeling stuck how to proceed with my taper.  I direct cut 1 mg. two weeks ago to get from 10 to 9 mg.  My 9 mg. are divided into four doses of 2.5, 2, 2, and 2.5 mgs spaced 4.5 hours apart.  I had to do this to alleviate nausea.  Nausea is gone now, hopefully it stays away!  So, for my next taper should I:

1.  Try to equalize my doses by tapering the AM and PM doses down to 2 mg each,

2.  Get rid of the 2 mg third dose.  This is usually around 5 pm and is the dose I seem to miss the least (had to set an alarm to remind myself to take it).

Any thoughts?  Thank you!

 

Over the last two years, I've experimented with several changes. When the dose is changed in any way, shape or form.....the brain and body will eventually adjust.  It's never easy, but your brain/body will eventually figure it out.

[[th...]]

I'm feeling stuck how to proceed with my taper.  I direct cut 1 mg. two weeks ago to get from 10 to 9 mg.  My 9 mg. are divided into four doses of 2.5, 2, 2, and 2.5 mgs spaced 4.5 hours apart.  I had to do this to alleviate nausea.  Nausea is gone now, hopefully it stays away!  So, for my next taper should I:

1.  Try to equalize my doses by tapering the AM and PM doses down to 2 mg each,

2.  Get rid of the 2 mg third dose.  This is usually around 5 pm and is the dose I seem to miss the least (had to set an alarm to remind myself to take it).

Any thoughts?  Thank you!

 

Thank you! I see you're also tapering V.  Can I ask which method you're using? 

 

Over the last two years, I've experimented with several changes. When the dose is changed in any way, shape or form.....the brain and body will eventually adjust.  It's never easy, but your brain/body will eventually figure it out.

[[Br...]]

Thank you! I see you're also tapering V.  Can I ask which method you're using? 

 

After switching to 15 mg of V, I was dry tapering and that went well until I hit a wall at about 8 or 9.  After holding a couple of months I then switched to a mix of tabs + compound V and was cutting only .2 mg (2/10) every 10-14 days.  With that I knocked out another 2.0 mg.  Toward the end of liquid, it finally started causing issues so I went back to strictly tabs. As far as dosing, I've done 3x/day and  2x/day.  Each one works after the brain/body gets acclimated.

After all this time I want off this stuff.....I want this over with.  My current method is dry cutting .5 then hang on for 10 to 14 days and do it all over again. 

[[va...]]

Benzolottie thank you very much for your empathy and understanding of how impossible it is to have this kind of pain and have to work every day. Life is good and healthy without drugs of course it is. Unfortunately some people need pain meds. I don't want to live my life on the couch in excruciating pain thinking of ending it all, but very proud because I'm not on anything addictive. I also think until someone has to live with this level of pain every day, they won't understand. It's impossible. I don't think the RFA would help me because leg weakness is a different issue and that won't be fixed with injections or so I'm reading from other patients. I'm going to the neurosurgeon on Wednesday let's see what he says. Yesterday with three tramadol 37.5 I was able to walk in the park with my daughter for the first time in two months. In two months I had only be able to go to the grocery store with a cane and sitting every ten minutes. She hugged me and said she was so happy that we were in nature together again. How little of a darn I give about tramadol addiction at this point could only be understood if you saw her look at me and smile without a worried expression for the first time in ages. I know everyone means well here Cantfly Momof7, we all want what's best for each other. I have to listen to everyone and then decide and take the risks. Pain meds are addictive but some people with have to take them. We don't want to reach the point of "she spent two years housebound and then died but very proudly because she never took pain meds". Perspective I guess. Anyway my smart GP told me to take more tramadol and yesterday I went to the pharmacy and the dumbass had forgotten to put it in the prescription, and I reminded him twice as he kept taking, and he said I'm typing it right now 🙄. Imagine if was already dependent. Anyway I'll stick to 3 a day till I see my psychiatrist who is smarter. Let's not fight. Different times require of different decisions, and we all have to make our own decisions, good and bad and sometimes it's not all good or all bad. There's a big gray area here. Cantfly you went to the ER with tramadol WD? Jeeeesssss, on the FB groups of stenosis sufferers most seem to end it without much trouble. But again, the same with 2mgs Valium and here we are.

[[Ma...]]

Benzolottie thank you very much for your empathy and understanding of how impossible it is to have this kind of pain and have to work every day. Life is good and healthy without drugs of course it is. Unfortunately some people need pain meds. I don't want to live my life on the couch in excruciating pain thinking of ending it all, but very proud because I'm not on anything addictive. I also think until someone has to live with this level of pain every day, they won't understand. It's impossible. I don't think the RFA would help me because leg weakness is a different issue and that won't be fixed with injections or so I'm reading from other patients. I'm going to the neurosurgeon on Wednesday let's see what he says. Yesterday with three tramadol 37.5 I was able to walk in the park with my daughter for the first time in two months. In two months I had only be able to go to the grocery store with a cane and sitting every ten minutes. She hugged me and said she was so happy that we were in nature together again. How little of a darn I give about tramadol addiction at this point could only be understood if you saw her look at me and smile without a worried expression for the first time in ages. I know everyone means well here Cantfly Momof7, we all want what's best for each other. I have to listen to everyone and then decide and take the risks. Pain meds are addictive but some people with have to take them. We don't want to reach the point of "she spent two years housebound and then died but very proudly because she never took pain meds". Perspective I guess. Anyway my smart GP told me to take more tramadol and yesterday I went to the pharmacy and the dumbass had forgotten to put it in the prescription, and I reminded him twice as he kept taking, and he said I'm typing it right now 🙄. Imagine if was already dependent. Anyway I'll stick to 3 a day till I see my psychiatrist who is smarter. Let's not fight. Different times require of different decisions, and we all have to make our own decisions, good and bad and sometimes it's not all good or all bad. There's a big gray area here. Cantfly you went to the ER with tramadol WD? Jeeeesssss, on the FB groups of stenosis sufferers most seem to end it without much trouble. But again, the same with 2mgs Valium and here we are.

 

I totally agree with you Val, after so long, with so much pain, and so little life, other things seem not quite as important.  Can't just wants you to educate yourself, which knowing you, I have no doubt you will.  Keep us posted.  Love you!!    :smitten:  Glad you had that walk with your daughter 😘😘♥️♥️

[[Mo...]]

Val,

So sorry about the pain.  I do understand the burden of chronic pain, though perhaps not as severe as yours.  I had chronic daily headache for 18 months, along with many months of stomach pain, which really interefered with my life.  I truly feel that the psych meds played a big part in this, as well as other medications and supplements.  It was all just a big, big mess and part of why I am where I am with the benzos.  The chronic pain, alone, is enough to depress anyone severely.  I'm so sorry and I pray you find a good solution very soon.

[[Be...]]

Benzolottie thank you very much for your empathy and understanding of how impossible it is to have this kind of pain and have to work every day. Life is good and healthy without drugs of course it is. Unfortunately some people need pain meds. I don't want to live my life on the couch in excruciating pain thinking of ending it all, but very proud because I'm not on anything addictive. I also think until someone has to live with this level of pain every day, they won't understand. It's impossible. I don't think the RFA would help me because leg weakness is a different issue and that won't be fixed with injections or so I'm reading from other patients. I'm going to the neurosurgeon on Wednesday let's see what he says. Yesterday with three tramadol 37.5 I was able to walk in the park with my daughter for the first time in two months. In two months I had only be able to go to the grocery store with a cane and sitting every ten minutes. She hugged me and said she was so happy that we were in nature together again. How little of a darn I give about tramadol addiction at this point could only be understood if you saw her look at me and smile without a worried expression for the first time in ages. I know everyone means well here Cantfly Momof7, we all want what's best for each other. I have to listen to everyone and then decide and take the risks. Pain meds are addictive but some people with have to take them. We don't want to reach the point of "she spent two years housebound and then died but very proudly because she never took pain meds". Perspective I guess. Anyway my smart GP told me to take more tramadol and yesterday I went to the pharmacy and the dumbass had forgotten to put it in the prescription, and I reminded him twice as he kept taking, and he said I'm typing it right now 🙄. Imagine if was already dependent. Anyway I'll stick to 3 a day till I see my psychiatrist who is smarter. Let's not fight. Different times require of different decisions, and we all have to make our own decisions, good and bad and sometimes it's not all good or all bad. There's a big gray area here. Cantfly you went to the ER with tramadol WD? Jeeeesssss, on the FB groups of stenosis sufferers most seem to end it without much trouble. But again, the same with 2mgs Valium and here we are.

 

 

Val, you made the best decision for you. I'm glad the Tramadol is working. You made an informed decision.  I truly hope all goes well with the Neurosurgeon on Wednesday and you can get the surgery and have the same great outcome my mom had with hers. Stenosis isn't fun. I'm lucky mine is a mild case, but I saw my brother and mother suffer a lot. My brother was facing the decision of having surgery for stenosis when he missed his flu shot in 2010 (Rite Aid ran out and told him to come back in 2 days), because his boss was out sick with H1N1 and work got busy. His boss recovered. But my brother came down with it, and sadly it took his life after many weeks on a ventilator. His organs began shutting down and my mom and sister-in-law were with him when he died. All because he didn't have time to go back and get his shot, which included H1N1 that year. He actually had a go from the neurosurgeon to get the surgery that same year. He was 48 yo with 3 children. My mom had hers done when she was almost 60.

 

The Tramadol will help you function and most important, improve your quality of life, until you can get surgery. I'm happy you had such a special moment with your daughter. I hope that happens soon, and you eventually won't need to take Tramadol. You shouldn't have to live a life filled with debilitating pain. And I can tell you from experience that getting off opiates is far easier than benzos, and quicker too. And Tramadol is supposed to be easier to taper off of than traditional opiates. Having been where you are, I would have made the same decision as you. Heck, I made that decision, 20 years of opiates, and I was able to live a better life. I wished back then they had stuff like RFA, like they do now. I don't regret using opiates to control my pain, but am glad I no longer need them. No monthly visits to the Drs office, no random pee tests, no pain contract to sign. I'll do RFA again until it gets to the point that only surgery will do. Please let us know how things go with the Neurosurgeon consult on Wednesday.

[[Ca...]]

Val, Im glad you are getting a break and got to start living life and having some quality time with daughter.. All this is important in a wholistic way, part of the big picture, as I mentioned.. Iv described this as “Village, or Living Life, Neuro Chemistry in the past, and im sure I dont have to pedantically explain how important it is in health, nor probably its role in discontinuation recovery..

 

It kinda reminds me of the original intent by the hospital Drs as to the reasoning behind catering to my increasing opiate doses (then Tramadol) after 9mths of non-weight bearing and the need to get the hell out of hospital and back to the kids, life, etc..

 

The thought was that the pain meds would be temporary, and that with use, my SIJ would tighten and calcify, somewhat like a Femoral Head Osectomy often seen with dogs n cats, and NOT continue to slide up and down my spine an inch or so with every attempted step.. It probs helped with the crushed L4, L5, fractured Occipital Condyle, Pubic Symphysis, and Acetabulum, etc, through the mechanism of mobilisation and physical therapy too.. -Surgery was not an option then (2009) due to ongoing infection from the ruptured bladder/bowel that kept returning post washout(s)..

In my mind atleast, this is a perfect example of prudent use of opiates, a tool, not a cure.. I hope that wasnt missed in my reply, though your specific needs surrounding the use of a “tool” will be individual to yourself..

Obviously my real problems started when my SIJ refused to calcify and reconstruction (2012) had some “glitches” that extended my escalating on med time into and beyond the 3 year mark, which was when tolerance and dependance became the beast it did.. -Final discharge on over 400mg/Oxy (470mg), then on to Fentanyl 150um/h... -And from there the true tapering chaos began... (Just to give some quick context as it all gets lost on BB over time..)

From a reverse perspective, later, and post CT, benzos initially did a great job of masking severe opiate WD.. That was highlighted again in the ER in a much more serious event, a C/O to a med with a blocker that effectively CTd me near instantly.. That happened twice, again later directly out of surgery to plate a broken ankle, and both times a valium tablet (taken “fresh”) had me good as gold within minutes.. Pretty scary as to the seriousness nature of these benzos and suggests an interaction of some form, symbiotic at least, between the two..

 

Now im doing it the other way around, more pertaining to your question, and while it isnt going so well, there is NO way in hell I can say that translates to “Opiates will or wont mess with another persons benzo discontinuation..!!”.. -Not to mention it took a pretty solid effort for me to get into this mess..!! If there is a definite to give, it would go like this: Try (or dont try), and see what happens.. 

-The joys of Discontinuation Land, where difference matters..!! (Bumper sticker patent pending)

 

Seriously(er), It is great to hear you have gained some life back for yourself and daughter.. I sure relate to that as you probs know.. Watching it all disintegrate is heartbreaking and tends to make one (me) cranky..

 

 

***

As to the tone of some replies/quotes of mine.. -(Lottie)..

Im not sure how some people read certain things into my post, but whatevs, it seems to be a BB thing... Perhaps you are just giving a running commentary, its hard to tell, but I can read, ty..

 

At best I suggested caution with long term reliance on ONLY opioids, without the exploration of alternate aids or solutions as and when possible.. Using as a taper aid only would get a different response again... Obviously what one does is up to them, but I was writing under the premise that Val was indeed investigating these adjunct options.. I had to go a little deeper once Pert came into the picture, along with your “defining” personal experience and thoughts...

Im not able to predict the outcome, esp. in relation to benzos, any more than Pert can in a completely individual and complex situation..

I guess I did mention that IF Val did have problems with Tramadol, then a competent specialist might find alternate pain meds that better suit her needs, but that was only IF she had problems that Tramadol is well known for in certain people..

 

It seems more the problem that I refused to get onboard with the (selective, incomplete, and with no context) quote from Pert.. If you wish to link directly to his writings then I will have a read.. Though I suspect the problem will continue to remain on what exactly is the definition and parameters of “WD”..

Sorry, but “These meds affect different receptors” -kinda thing, wont really cut it for me..

Bold definitive statements (that have reach and implications far beyond those of us posting on this thread) need verifiable “substance”..

 

Beyond this, are we not all saying the same thing..? -Esp. most* of your recent post..

 

“Most*” because normally I might respond to you statement as to Tramadol and opiates being quick and easy to discontinue for everyone.. Not that I disagree in general, but I would present some caveats around the idea of active WD being somewhat different to (possible) longer term damage..

But I doubt it will have relevance to Val and her situation, So I wont..

 

Ty.

 

**

Sorry if this is a bit “clunky”, I wrote it in bits over the last 24hrs..

lol, nearly missed my appointment to get my toe nail cut out.. -kinda wish I did right now..!!

 

Oh, and Val, Dearest, pretty please, and all that, -Would you try and compile a bit of a list (for my own reference) as to what symptoms improve or change as you initiate Tramadol..Certainly if you feel any changes in “initiation motivation” good or bad, but anything really would be great..

Thanks..

 

Omg.. It says while I was typing there have been 22290 new posts to review..!! -Thought I was slow, but thats crazy slow..!!

 

[[Ma...]]

That's a great idea Val, to make that list, good for you to see and also lots of people on bb.  Hope you feel better and better.  :smitten:

[[Ne...]]

Hello Everyone,

 

I am still pretty new to BB and am struggling to navigate through all the information. I was wondering if someone could help me narrow down where to look for information. I had been tapering Diazepam at 8% every two weeks for a year and a half. I went from 10.5 mg down to .9 mg.  Because the dr who put me on it had me take it sublingually, my body is pretty dependent on the stuff. When it came time to taper lower, I had to figure out the formulas and a spreadsheet to make my doses for the two week tapering period. I essentially crush the 2 mg pills and weigh out a 24 hour dose, which I split into 4 smaller doses for that day and put it in capsules that I empty under my tongue. This is working ok and I could still taper using this method but here is my issue:

 

I have very high cortisol (after tests they said it was due to going through the withdrawals every two weeks while tapering.) I have hormone issues that they say contribute to the cortisol but they won't treat them until I am done tapering off Diazepam. They won't let me taper anymore until cortisol comes down. I have been trying natural remedies to get the cortisol down since the end of Feb. and I am still feeling what I assume is cortisol in the morning but there seems to be more going on than just that. I wake up about midnight every night with tremors, temperature regulation issues, anxiety etc. The insomnia is becoming a huge issue. I wondered if the Diazepam has turned on me and is now giving me withdrawals even though I did not taper. I thought maybe if I switched to the liquid micro tapering  method (I have heard Diaz-Pam and Bart know of this but I can't seem to find where the directions are) maybe I could continue to work towards getting off this stuff.  If the only way out of this is through, I need to keep going. I am a mess with the lack of sleep and my naturopath has helped as much as she can but the psych and the endocrinologist don't know what to do with me. I need experts on the hormone issues, cortisol, and micro tapering and I feel this community is full of experts. Would anyone be willing to help point me in the right direction?

[[ki...]]

Never Alone, all those symptoms you mentioned sound like benzo withdrawal. It’s possible that your taper schedule has caught up to you and it may be time to hold your dose a while until things settle down (and they almost always do). Also, benzos mess with our hormones A LOT, so it may be that your hormone problems go away after you finish your taper and recovery. I don’t recommend switching to a liquid taper while you are having bad symptoms. This can ultimately destabilize you further. Like I said, hold your dose for a while, then possibly do a slow switch to either a homebrew liquid or if you live in the USA, you may be able to get your doctor to prescribe an oral diazepam solution which is made by Roxane West-ward. The prescription liquid cuts out the step of having to dissolve your pills, and in my experience is just easier.

[[Ne...]]

Never Alone, all those symptoms you mentioned sound like benzo withdrawal. It’s possible that your taper schedule has caught up to you and it may be time to hold your dose a while until things settle down (and they almost always do). Also, benzos mess with our hormones A LOT, so it may be that your hormone problems go away after you finish your taper and recovery. I don’t recommend switching to a liquid taper while you are having bad symptoms. This can ultimately destabilize you further. Like I said, hold your dose for a while, then possibly do a slow switch to either a homebrew liquid or if you live in the USA, you may be able to get your doctor to prescribe an oral diazepam solution which is made by Roxane West-ward. The prescription liquid cuts out the step of having to dissolve your pills, and in my experience is just easier.

 

Thank you for the information. I was sort of thinking that all of this could not be just cortisol. I have tried the liquid valium and reacted very badly to it so I am scared to try that again. I would rather make my own. I actually do not produce hardly any progesterone or testosterone. The reason I am on this journey is because a doctor overmedicated me on progesterone which converts to cortisol when the body can no longer use it. That was my first round of high cortisol. This second is a mystery because I haven't been given any hormones.  Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it.

[[Ma...]]

Never Alone,  I agree with Kit, you have been going at a pretty fast rate for tapering, and apparently you have kept exactly to the same plan without ever giving your brain or central nervous system an opportunity to stabilize.  Can you tell us how you have felt over the last 6 months?  If you could maintain that rate, it really is pretty unusual.  You will find few people on bb that could.    If your Dr will allow, you need to hold until the symptoms you are having stabilize.  That might take a while.

By stabilize, we don't mean they go away, we mean they become tolerable.  You are very low in dose now, and you are saying you are very dependent.  When it comes time to complete your taper, to me, this is very important, your body needs to be as healed as possible before you finish or you may feel even worse than you do now.  I am sorry, I am sure you just want to finish, but holding and stabilizing before you finish may save you from a very bad period after.  This is just my opinion.  Please keep us posted, we are always here for you no matter what you choose to do.  Mary

🙋🏼🙋🏼

[[Ne...]]

Never Alone,  I agree with Kit, you have been going at a pretty fast rate for tapering, and apparently you have kept exactly to the same plan without ever giving your brain or central nervous system an opportunity to stabilize.  Can you tell us how you have felt over the last 6 months?  If you could maintain that rate, it really is pretty unusual.  You will find few people on bb that could.    If your Dr will allow, you need to hold until the symptoms you are having stabilize.  That might take a while.

By stabilize, we don't mean they go away, we mean they become tolerable.  You are very low in dose now, and you are saying you are very dependent.  When it comes time to complete your taper, to me, this is very important, your body needs to be as healed as possible before you finish or you may feel even worse than you do now.  I am sorry, I am sure you just want to finish, but holding and stabilizing before you finish may save you from a very bad period after.  This is just my opinion.  Please keep us posted, we are always here for you no matter what you choose to do.  Mary

🙋🏼🙋🏼

 

Thank you Mary. That is the weird part. In December, January, and the first part of February I felt really good. I was having a normal stress response and even held a holiday party. The withdrawals were so mild that we were even thinking of planning weekend getaways and my doctor told me it would just get easier and easier. Then my 16 year old fur baby died and we were devastated, although we knew it was coming. I tapered three days later and then about six days after that I woke up with raging cortisol symptoms. Had a range of tests done to rule out bad adrenal stuff and they said it was from the tapering.

[[Ma...]]

Never Alone,  I agree with Kit, you have been going at a pretty fast rate for tapering, and apparently you have kept exactly to the same plan without ever giving your brain or central nervous system an opportunity to stabilize.  Can you tell us how you have felt over the last 6 months?  If you could maintain that rate, it really is pretty unusual.  You will find few people on bb that could.    If your Dr will allow, you need to hold until the symptoms you are having stabilize.  That might take a while.

By stabilize, we don't mean they go away, we mean they become tolerable.  You are very low in dose now, and you are saying you are very dependent.  When it comes time to complete your taper, to me, this is very important, your body needs to be as healed as possible before you finish or you may feel even worse than you do now.  I am sorry, I am sure you just want to finish, but holding and stabilizing before you finish may save you from a very bad period after.  This is just my opinion.  Please keep us posted, we are always here for you no matter what you choose to do.  Mary

🙋🏼🙋🏼

 

Thank you Mary. That is the weird part. In December, January, and the first part of February I felt really good. I was having a normal stress response and even held a holiday party. The withdrawals were so mild that we were even thinking of planning weekend getaways and my doctor told me it would just get easier and easier. Then my 16 year old fur baby died and we were devastated, although we knew it was coming. I tapered three days later and then about six days after that I woke up with raging cortisol symptoms. Had a range of tests done to rule out bad adrenal stuff and they said it was from the tapering.

 

I am so sorry about your fur baby  .  A lot of us are just crazy about animals and loosing one while in wd, is just awful.  Between the speed of your taper and the stress from your pet being sick and passing away,it just kicked your wd symptoms into high gear.  Most of us have a hard time with stress, unfortunately life throws a lot of it at us.  I hope you and your Dr can make a plan for you to hold and walk off much slower.    :smitten:

[[Ne...]]

Thank you Mary. I hope you are correct and this will settle down. I have usually only had 3-4 rough days during each two week taper and each taper was easier as time went on. I have never felt this bad with this level of insomnia. I wonder how the brain heals if it can't sleep? I have been holding this dose since mid Feb. but didn't have these symptoms until 4/11 so it seems very bizarre. I read somewhere that if you hold too long the brain will stop healing and you need to taper again to get the healing going but I don't know what to believe.

[[Mo...]]

Never,

For some, they do seem to get worse during a long hold as tolerance seems to set in but for others, a long hold helps immensely.  Such a crap shoot, these benzos.  Just know that you are not alone - I've read and heard many testimonies of people who just have symptoms all the sudden, not because of anything that they did wrong.  It's the nature of withdrawal and it is really awful.  I know how bad chronic insomnia can be and I feel for you.  I hope that you can get some rest soon.