SLOW TAPER SUPPORT THREAD - slow and steady is your pace

[[Di...]]

Count me in too. I said just recently that I'm not too keen on categorising tapers into fast or slow etc, because that often ends up creating divisiveness, although hopefully that won't happen here.

 

Like Bart, I would prefer to call mine a symptom based taper. I don't really know if that means it's been a slow taper, because I don't really think of it in those terms, but I do know I couldn't have done it any faster. However, in comparison to those who strictly follow Ashton's Method, or do a much faster taper and often suffer the consequences, I guess it has been somewhat slow, particularly now that I'm in the final stages.

 

It took me a long time to find out that you can't just taper off a benzo at whatever rate you think. I tried and failed that theory many times before I found BB. As far as I'm concerned (and there will be many who will disagree, and that's fine), the only sensible way to taper off a benzo is with a daily taper, done at a rate that your body can tolerate, and no faster.

 

[[OM...]]

Hi DPam,

 

I think it's not really about categorizing it but about how you feel about it. If it feels slow to you or if you feel like others are passing you by and finishing sooner, this is a good place to come for support. I think it's all about following what your body dictates. I feel so sad when I see people ending up in a really bad place because they've followed a taper plan that was too fast for them. Hopefully this thread will encourage people to feel better about doing a taper that is dictated by their body, symptoms and healing. It seems like so few do that as far as I can tell. And it seems a bit like Ashton's rates may be too fast for a fair portion of people on the forum. If they decide it is, they'll have a support thread to stop in on and hear about how we taper according to our symptoms and healing.

 

I've always found daily tapers interesting but a bit confusing. I know they work well for a good portion of people who tried them and they seem to make a lot of sense as they don't do a sizable cut at once but rather keep stepping you down gradually which seems like a pretty good way to go. I've wondered though how you keep from cutting too much daily and not getting hit at some point. I think that's the thing about daily tapers that scares me. I'd be afraid I would be going along swimmingly thinking I'm at the right pace then SLAM. Turns out I was going way too fast. But daily tapers definitely have their merits. Seems like they are much more gentle on the system than flat out cuts. I'd be interested in learning how to do one as I might have to go that route at some point, so knowing it could be good.

 

Thanks for joining in. It's good to have you here.

[[ho...]]

OMG,

 

I stumbled upon this thread by chance tonight and just wanted to say that I think this is a very good idea. It looks as if you have a great start already  EVERYONE needs to find what works for them and I support whatever method gets the job done. Hope you'll still pop into the KK. I wish all of you the very best.

 

blessings,

hopeful2013

[[...]]

Hi DPam,

 

I think it's not really about categorizing it but about how you feel about it. If it feels slow to you or if you feel like others are passing you by and finishing sooner, this is a good place to come for support. I think it's all about following what your body dictates. I feel so sad when I see people ending up in a really bad place because they've followed a taper plan that was too fast for them. Hopefully this thread will encourage people to feel better about doing a taper that is dictated by their body, symptoms and healing. It seems like so few do that as far as I can tell. And it seems a bit like Ashton's rates may be too fast for a fair portion of people on the forum. If they decide it is, they'll have a support thread to stop in on and hear about how we taper according to our symptoms and healing.

 

I've always found daily tapers interesting but a bit confusing. I know they work well for a good portion of people who tried them and they seem to make a lot of sense as they don't do a sizable cut at once but rather keep stepping you down gradually which seems like a pretty good way to go. I've wondered though how you keep from cutting too much daily and not getting hit at some point. I think that's the thing about daily tapers that scares me. I'd be afraid I would be going along swimmingly thinking I'm at the right pace then SLAM. Turns out I was going way too fast. But daily tapers definitely have their merits. Seems like they are much more gentle on the system than flat out cuts. I'd be interested in learning how to do one as I might have to go that route at some point, so knowing it could be good.

 

Thanks for joining in. It's good to have you here.

 

Hi omgwth

The short answer to how do you keep from cutting too fast and getting slammed is that it will most likely happen. It happened to me a lot as I found it hard to believe I needed to go as slow as I did, particularly  at the end of my taper. What helped me were one time updoses to get my levels back up a bit when I had gone too fast, holds, including some holds for a few days when some big event was coming up and a logbook. A daily rating of symptoms on a 1-10 scale helped me figure out if I needed a hold or cut rate reduction as symptoms fluctuate and I could look back a few to several days and see how my symptoms were generally trending. Much of this is trial and error. I got better at it over time, but never perfectly.

Bart

[[Di...]]

Hi OMG

 

Daily tapers really aren't confusing. I know they sound confusing at first, because I was totally confused when I first landed at BB, but really the best way to think about a daily taper is to take whatever your cut and hold rate would be over a given period time, and just divide it by the number of days within that period.

 

For example, for valium, if you were going to cut and hold 0.5mg every 20 days, that would mean that it would work out to be 0.025mg every day (0.5mg ÷ 20 days = 0.025mg). Then the simplest way of doing a daily cut is to use a liquid titration. I prefer the 1:100ml ratio, so that would mean that the liquid amount you would cut every day would be 2.5ml (0.025mg x 100ml = 2.5ml).

 

Certainly daily tapers can sneak up on you if you aren't careful, but the thing is that because the cuts are very small, when you start to feel symptoms that are more than you can manage it usually means that things haven't gotten so bad that a small hold can't get you back on track fairly quickly. It's a lot different to doing a much larger one-off cut and then having to wait for what can often be a fairly lengthly withdrawal time.

 

The problems are usually much easier to sort out with a daily taper. Then you have the choice of reducing your daily taper, or doing a regular hold for a couple of days to allows cuts to catch up, or just waiting until you get your first "warning signs" and doing a hold then. The way I see it, you have a lot more choice and flexibility with daily tapers, and it certainly make things easier when your dose gets into the lower stages.

[[So...]]

This is my choice for when I get my taper started.

 

Low and slow!!

 

Birdman has been very convincing on that!!

 

And, Bart, too!!

 

Thanks for starting this thread!!

 

Denise 

[[So...]]

Also, is there a place anywhere on BB that explains the different ways a person could microtaper?

 

I know that many of the people who are doing it have developed their own personal style. It might help if there was a thread, in the tapering section, where each one could explain how they are/did theirs.

 

That way newbies could make a choice that fits their lifestyle and post questions if needed.

 

If there is already a thread for this, then I am sorry. I guess I didn't see it.

 

Thanks,

 

Denise 

[[OM...]]

Sophia, there's a whole section for it just above this area. Titration is explained there and I think people pop in regularly to help others. For you, I would suggest starting low. People often recommend ashton rates but I think with everything you've been though, starting with a small cut and holding for a month to see how you feel would be safe. For you, I would recommend 5% holding for a month, which seems quite small, but it gets you started and in one month you should be able to see the effects it has on you. If it feels to easy up it to 6%. See how that goes. The month will give you a cushion because I think most people at their ideal rate and cut every 3-4 weeks. If 6% is easy, go to 7%. Start like that very conservative is my recommendation because you've been through pure hell. Usually I would say 7% but I think keeping you in a safe zone when you start where you're risk of landing in WD far less is better. Then adding a percent more to see how that goes is a gradual way to find what works for you. But you'll have to ask in the taper section about your med. K is the only one I know about for titration but you're not on that so I'm not sure what they use for a liquid. I have to use milk for the suspension liquid.

 

 

[[OM...]]

For example, for valium, if you were going to cut and hold 0.5mg every 20 days, that would mean that it would work out to be 0.025mg every day (0.5mg ÷ 20 days = 0.025mg). Then the simplest way of doing a daily cut is to use a liquid titration. I prefer the 1:100ml ratio, so that would mean that the liquid amount you would cut every day would be 2.5ml (0.025mg x 100ml = 2.5ml).

 

OK, so my algebra brain says I would just divide the difference between the 1.85 and 1.757 (current dose with 5% cut new dose) over the 20 days and subtract that daily. So it would be (1.85-1.757)/20 = daily cut rate of .005. That over 20 days of me subtracting it brings me to 1.76 instead of 1.757 but close enough. But at lower doses though it seems to fall apart. I tested it at .487 down to .463 which gave me .001 as the cut and twenty days later I'm at .476 which is .007 ml higher. At .12 or 12ml it gives me a daily cut rate of .000. I guess 5% is too low, but that has been the magic number for me though it might have to go lower with time. I guess I'm going too slow for daily cutting down the line.

 

Do you think a person could increase their cut rate using daily cutting because it's a smoother transition? Like would I be able to move up to 6% or 7% ? Or if that is too high for me now as a cut and hold then it would be too high for me doing daily small cuts? I would love to be able to taper faster a little bit faster but I don't know if it would land me in a world of hurt which I'd like to avoid. But I think the daily taper might make it easier to cut a bit higher because it's such a gentle process as you go and isn't an all at once thing so I think it would allow the brain to adapt more smoothly. Have you found that you can cut higher than you could using the cut and hold method?

 

Here's another question you might be able to help me with - I'm in Lag right now. Last time I hit lag, I ended up holding for 81 days waiting to stabilize. Never happened. Symptoms got lighter but not like when I'm not in lag. So I decided to just cut after a month hold. I know that might not be the best idea but my experience previously taught me that waiting on lag is a waste of time and I think the long hold did more harm than good. But now I'm thinking that I could daily cut my way out of it because the slow cuts would allow me to get past it without the jump down to the next dose all at once. Feels like it could work because of it the nature of the daily taper. I might give it a try and see if it's a nice way to bypass this lag that doesn't respond to a hold. Thoughts?

 

[[An...]]

Hi OM,

I hope that I can ask this here . If not, please tell me, and I can move it to your blog.

As you know I am holding for over 10 weeks. But shouldn't a hold bring some sort of stability? With me, it seems that as time passes, that the symptoms multiply, and become more aggressive.

Most of my symptoms have been in my head, but lately they are acting up in my sleep .. Also, a new symptom is that my eyes get blurry .. And I am concerned about that getting worse ..

My breathing is labored, and does not lighten up at all .. I am unstable, and cannot take a few steps, without holding on And I have been hit with a debilitating depression , and constant crying .. :'(

I dream of the day when I too can start a slow taper ..

As it is, my gut feeling is that all these symptoms are Ativan related, they have taken a life all their own, and am like a sitting duck, waiting for symptoms to deteriorate further.

I feel hopeless .. I completely trust your judgement, and hope for your thoughts.

Thank you, I am grateful ..

Love, Anu

[[OM...]]

Anoushka,

 

My concern is that this issue is related to the CT from your AD which can make one quite sensitive. Also, I just checked my blog to clarify and you did make two cuts, while not large, they seemed to have triggered this intense WD. After the first cut, you didn't completely stabilize and carried over some symptoms into the second cut. Also, the first cut was too large, which I think might have been a shock to your system after dealing with a CT of an AD. So I am wondering if there is a snowball effect here from a CT from an AD that made you more sensitive, then a cut that was too large and you didn't hold until stable, then another cut that while smaller did have carry over from the first cut. So that is essentially two cuts with WD rolling forward and often WD isn't felt right away. For me, I have noticed it takes a little time for it to come into full effect after a cut - I might get small symptoms here and there but the full fallout from a cut wouldn't be felt until about 12-14 days later. Sometimes longer. So that's about two weeks.

 

Maybe bart, DPam or others will have helpful insight into this. I would hate to have you hold if it might be better to cut or vice versa and have you cut when it would be better to hold though my instinct is to hold. 10 weeks is a long time to hold but you seem to be in some level of acute WD or close to it. That might take longer to stabilize. I honestly don't know how best to advise you on this. If I recommend trying to cut again it could make things even worse. Have you posted your question in the WD section? I wonder if others there might have better insight? I don't doubt that the symptoms are ativan related. I just think they are WD from not holding as long as you needed. If your first cut was too bit and you only held for a month then carried over WD into the second cut. Well, you might have needed a six week hold from that first cut to stabilize which is a low ball estimate because I've seen people make cuts that were too large have to hold for a few months. Your symptoms mirror mine when I was in acute WD though there were many more of them.

 

Have you been keeping a journal on your symptoms and rating the pain and documenting specific symptoms?

 

[[An...]]

OM, thank you,

You are gracious and kind .. I appreciate that you take time to explain the reasons why you feel the way you do,

making it easier for me to regain hope.

I do feel an uptick in symptoms a bit after taking the doses, this is why I feel that the Ativan is probably causing some adverse reactions..

When you were in acute, when did you start to see a turn for the better ? And how did it finally end? Did symptoms finally level out ?

I do keep a journal, and document symptoms, changes, and level of pain. Thank you for suggesting that.

Perhaps I should try posting in WD, but if anyone here can chime in, I will be grateful ..

You are wonderful OM, and I am thankful for your tireless guidance, and support.

Wishing you peace, wellness, and many blessings .. 

Anu

 

 

 

 

[[OM...]]

Anoushka,

 

My acute WD was different in that I had been taking my benzo to help with WD during my AD taper, but it turned out that the problems I thought were from the AD taper, after some of the initial ones like adrenaline/cortisol spikes in the morning, were actually me going into benzo WD and then acute benzo WD because as my symptoms became worse I used the benzo more erratically. Days with 1mg twice to days with 1mg 4 times. So I was all over the map and once I was in acute WD my brain was pretty wrecked and I was taking up to 8mg a day at one point because I believed it helped with the pain. I had no idea about the dangers of benzos and my doctor did approve the dose increase as he realized I was having a problem but neither of us realized it was the benzos. So my acute was never due to a big cut but erratic use. I ended up stabilizing on 3.5mg which was about my average daily dose and it took me 6 weeks to get there. But I was also heading out of acute at that point in time because I had started using less and less of the benzo as a norm anyway.

 

You are in the same situation as another person I know. She was yanked off two ADs and is taking ativan or xanax. Can't remember which. But she became sensitive to the benzo after the CT of the ADs. She was in a horrible state and it was really hard to figure which symptoms were related to the benzo. But she did appear to have some sensitivity to it after the CT of the ADs. I know she kept wanting to cut but there were some very benzo knowledgeable people in that forum who felt she really should hold. I thought the same, that she had been destabilized from the CTs and they had made her sensitive to the benzo and until she stabilized more fully cutting the benzo could lead to a lot of trouble triggering more or worsening WD from the benzo. This is what I feel is the case for you. There are similarities between benzo WD and AD WD. They aren't exactly the same, but some are close.

 

I think that when you cut the benzo and especially because it was too high a cut you triggered more sensitivity to the benzo as well as WD from the AD because you weren't a fully year out from that CT. And then you didn't stabilize after that cut. You pushed forward rather than waiting for all the symptoms to settle and carried over WD into the next cut. This is what I think happened and while I understand there is sensitivity to it, there also appears to be some obvious benzo WD as best as I can tell. So pushing forward might not do you any favors. It feels like pushing forward is what landed you here. If you are really certain that you feel you should do it, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know for sure and am only assessing based on what I have known and seen, but I could very well be wrong. So if you really feel you want to cut, then do what you feel is best, but please keep it a very tiny cut because that will tell you what you need to know. It's one way to tell what is happening, but since it comes with the possible risk of worsening your WD, then you would want to go pretty small percentage wise and then wait at least a month to see what happens. If you feel worse, you can always updose back to the dose you are on now. I'm not a fan of updoses but if you do a small cut and pay very close attention to how you feel the first few weeks, updosing back to your original dose if any symptoms get worse in anyway, that could at least give you some sense of if this is benzo WD or if cutting will make things worse. Best to tread with utmost caution and go small paying very close attention and going back to the dose you are on now if anything at all starts showing up.

[[Bi...]]

This is my choice for when I get my taper started.

 

Low and slow!!

 

Birdman has been very convincing on that!!

 

And, Bart, too!!

 

Thanks for starting this thread!!

 

Denise 

 

It's  LOWER LOWER / SLOWER SLOWER

 

The lower you get the slower you go for an extra soft landing.

Why "jump" when you can just gently "step off"

 

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag4/birdman22222/birdstaper_zps54793872.jpg

 

 

[[OM...]]

Birdman,

 

Step off is my new favorite term for the end of a taper. I think that getting as low as you can - the equivalent of .1 or .2mg valium is probably the best way to go. I take K so getting that low at my taper rate is going to be a pain. I'll have to change my pill and ratio just to continue cutting that low, but it's worth doing it if possible I think

[[So...]]

See! Birdman has it all figured out!! 

 

Denise 

[[mr...]]

OM, thank you,

You are gracious and kind .. I appreciate that you take time to explain the reasons why you feel the way you do,

making it easier for me to regain hope.

I do feel an uptick in symptoms a bit after taking the doses, this is why I feel that the Ativan is probably causing some adverse reactions..

When you were in acute, when did you start to see a turn for the better ? And how did it finally end? Did symptoms finally level out ?

I do keep a journal, and document symptoms, changes, and level of pain. Thank you for suggesting that.

Perhaps I should try posting in WD, but if anyone here can chime in, I will be grateful ..

You are wonderful OM, and I am thankful for your tireless guidance, and support.

Wishing you peace, wellness, and many blessings .. 

Anu

Hi Anu,

I am sorry u r still experiences bad symptoms.

So far, my mom is doing really well doing a daily taper.

I found this easier method of titration for those that don't want do the complicated one.

 

****************************************************************

Lee's Simple Water Titration:

 

This Is Lee's explanation of her method

 

"Get one or two plain glass medicine bottles with dropper tops.  You can buy these at any drugstore.  Sometimes you have to ask the pharmacist for them; they keep them behind the counter.

 

If you are taking a pill, this will probably work great (depending upon the dissolvability of the pill).  If you are taking a capsule, ask your pharmacist if it is OK to open the capsule and swallow part of the contents: sometimes meds are encapsulated because they can irritate the mouth and throat.  Check with your pharmacist.

 

Put the pill in the glass bottle.  Add 10 droppers of hot water.  Let stand for 15 minutes, then shake it up.  Shake it up every time you take some.  With this ratio, 10 droppers = 100% of your dose, 9 droppers = 90% etc.

 

For instance:  I was taking half of a .25 mg. Xanax twice a day.  I managed to cut the halves into quarters, but that was as far as I could chop them up.  So I put 1/2 of a .25 mg. (.125mg) Xanax into the bottle and added 8 droppers of hot water.  With this ratio, 2 droppers = .03125mg of Xanax.  1 dropper = .015625mg of Xanax, or an equivalent of .3125 mg. Valium. So I was able to take quite small doses.

 

I used this 3 years ago to do a long, hard taper off Baclofen and Ativan.  It works great.  When I got down to the end, I just added another 10 droppers of water to the bottle (no pill) and kept taking that for a couple of weeks.  In reality, I was getting plain water, but going thru the motions of taking it was a comforting placebo."

 

Notes:

 

CAUTION: A person should always consult with their doctor before making any changes to their medication.

 

1. If you add 10 droppers of water to your pill and then drink all 10 drops, you will have taken your full dose.

 

If you add 10 droppers of water to your pill and then drink 9 droppers, you will have made a 10% cut in your dose. You might drink 9 droppers a day for two weeks or until you feel stable and then you might cut to taking 8 droppers a day for 2 weeks or until you feel stable.

 

2. If you add 8 droppers of water to your pill and then drink all 8 drops, you will have taken your full dose.

 

If you add 8 droppers of water to your pill and then drink 7 droppers, you will have made a 12.5% cut in your dose.

 

3. If you think that making a 10% or a 12.5% cut is too large then you might consider using more water with your pill. For instance if you add 20 droppers of water to your pill and then drink 19 droppers you will have made a 5% cut.

 

4. You don't have to use droppers, you just need to have a way to consistently measure the same amount of water each day. You could use a medicine measuring syringe from the pharmacy and measure out 10mls of water each day and makes cuts of 1ml each two weeks to get a 10% cut. Alternatively you might use a teaspoon.

 

5. If the pharmacist says to use cold water, you can smash you pill into powder in a bowl, using the back of a spoon.  Then put the powder on a small piece of paper, curl in up and carefully pour into bottle.

http://www.benzosupport.org/lee%27s_simple_water_titraion.htm

 

***************************************************************

I assume that dropper = 1mL.

If you used 10 mL of hot water and remove 1mL, this would be a 10% reduction in your doses for the day or repeat for a week or what ever your cut.

After removing 1mL, you could take 2mL, 4x's per day for each dose.

 

If I remember your dosing, 2.07mg per day splitting into 5 doses daily?

You could use in a jar:

1.  10mL hot water (walgreens has a 5mL syringe u could fill twice)

2.    2.07mg ativan

3.  Let sit until dissolved

4.  Remove 1mL of the solution (this should be a reduction of 10% your total day's doses or 1.863mg ativan in solution) using a graduated syringe (free from walgreens)

5.  Add 1mL of hot water (to make an even number mL for 5 doses)

6.  Take 2mL per dose, 5 times per day (.372mg ativan per dose)

You could do this weekly or how ever u want to reduce.

Each week(s) you want to reduce further, will have to cut your pill.

 

Hope this helps, and if anyone see's a problem with this, Please let me know.

[[Bi...]]

Birdman,

 

Step off is my new favorite term for the end of a taper. I think that getting as low as you can - the equivalent of .1 or .2mg valium is probably the best way to go. I take K so getting that low at my taper rate is going to be a pain. I'll have to change my pill and ratio just to continue cutting that low, but it's worth doing it if possible I think

 

Yes it's possible.  I talked with an old BB'er a few months back and he would lick the edge of a xanax for the last few months of his taper and he said it actually helped while it sounds funny and utterly desperate. What this tells me however is to never underestimate the power of even a trace amount of benzo's at the end of a taper - I am going to cut to "fumes" like bart did.  When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening if it's done right. I am looking for a NON-EVENT when I am done, like stepping off an escalator, effortless

 

[[No...]]

Birdman,

 

Step off is my new favorite term for the end of a taper. I think that getting as low as you can - the equivalent of .1 or .2mg valium is probably the best way to go. I take K so getting that low at my taper rate is going to be a pain. I'll have to change my pill and ratio just to continue cutting that low, but it's worth doing it if possible I think

 

Yes it's possible.  I talked with an old BB'er a few months back and he would lick the edge of a xanax for the last few months of his taper and he said it actually helped while it sounds funny and utterly desperate. What this tells me however is to never underestimate the power of even a trace amount of benzo's at the end of a taper - I am going to cut to "fumes" like bart did.  When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening if it's done right. I am looking for a NON-EVENT when I am done, like stepping off an escalator, effortless

Hi Bird!

      Could you elaborate on this statetment,"When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening" ?

      NFM Curious me

[[OM...]]

Yes it's possible.  I talked with an old BB'er a few months back and he would lick the edge of a xanax for the last few months of his taper and he said it actually helped while it sounds funny and utterly desperate. What this tells me however is to never underestimate the power of even a trace amount of benzo's at the end of a taper - I am going to cut to "fumes" like bart did.  When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening if it's done right. I am looking for a NON-EVENT when I am done, like stepping off an escalator, effortless

 

Birdman, This is exactly how I feel. I think it's a great way to get to those low doses and then just step off so it is a non event.

 

 

Yes it's possible.  I talked with an old BB'er a few months back and he would lick the edge of a xanax for the last few months of his taper and he said it actually helped while it sounds funny and utterly desperate. What this tells me however is to never underestimate the power of even a trace amount of benzo's at the end of a taper - I am going to cut to "fumes" like bart did.  When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening if it's done right. I am looking for a NON-EVENT when I am done, like stepping off an escalator, effortless

Hi Bird!

      Could you elaborate on this statetment,"When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening" ?

      NFM Curious me

 

NFM, the idea is to put more time into the taper and continue as you would have but getting below the magickal .5mg V or equivalent because the lower you go, the less it hits you and then it's like you just step out of a building and down a step to the ground whereas .5mg Valium or higher is a Jump - and when you do it, you hit hard. The body now has to adapt from that higher dose to none and all, and it will be in some strong WD during that process. But if you go down to that lower amount, it can be done.

 

For me, it would have to be done by changing the ratio. At lower doses, I'll be using .5mg K in 100ml milk. This makes it half as strong so I'd double the ml dose I take to account for that. At really low number I'll be using .25mg to 100ml milk which means that I'll have to multiply it by four because the ratio is now 1:4 but those higher numbers give me the leeway to reduce it by amounts that don't turn into big cuts. It's a mathematical thing - the cuts just get to big percentage wise except with valium because valium is the least potent.

 

I do have someone right now that I know of who tapered K down to .01 mg. with a quick stop at .005 before stepping off. I think that's equal to .2mg valium. She said that she only had a really rough patch at 3 months with suicidal depression but then was fine after that and by 8 months (unheard of around these parts) was feeling well enough for a long enough time that she began tapering another medication and has done very well.

 

EDITED TO ADD: We have to remember that Ashton was SPECULATING on the .5mg Valium theory of just keeping the dependency alive. She is a pioneer, but that is only a theory she has. There is no factual evidence to back it up. However, when you see people getting to much lower doses than .5mg V and not staring down the barrel of 14-18 mo. of acute WD or cycles of windows and waves - recovering in a matter of months and doing well before that year mark - well, I have to question this idea that you are just keeping the addiction alive, and even if you are just keeping the addiction alive, I still say if tapering for another however many months makes stopping the benzo at a much lower dose a much easier experience that is also shorter as well, then who cares about the addiction at that point. The goal, to me, should be to minimize people's suffering and do whatever you can to avoid people needing rescue doses or wanting to reinstate.

[[No...]]

 

  Hi OM,

   

        Good to hear. I stepped off at .0625mg of X which equates to 1.25mg of V. I am not in acute withdrawal.

     

        I tapered 1 mg of Xanax which is 20 mg of Valium in 11 months. That is 332 days. If you divide .0625mg into

        the days= .0002 per day of Xanax dose reduction, vs  332/20mg = .06 per day dose reduction.

 

        I feel pretty good. I do have some sx remaining. Noticed a "cycle" (pattern) of sx that start and finish rapidly

        Healing has been taking place throughout my taper.

 

        Xanax= Time of Peak: 1-2 hours, Elimination Half life= 9-20 hours

        Valium=    "                1-1.5 hrs        "                    =20-100 [36-200 active metabolite]

       

        Definition of Elimination of Half life:In a medical context, half-life may also describe the time it takes for the blood  plasma concentration of a substance to halve (plasma half-life) its steady-state.

 

          Then for me, taking Xanax, given  it's  equivalence to Valium is 20-1, the elimination of the metabolites

  would be different. IE: X is excreted rapidly out of the system with a minimal build up in tissue vs Valium.  I believe there is a genetic component to any pharmacology factors unique to each of us. 

 

        I do feel comfortable that I " landed slowly and safely" according to how I have tapered. Of course tapering to zero would have been preferable.

 

 

          Thanks for all your help. Wishing everyone, a smooth, safe landing!

 

                      NFM

 

    Those whom are math/scientific wizards, please chime in here, if my analysis is wrong on any fronts.

    Correct, accurate information is so helpful when one is tapering. Thanks

     

         

[[...]]

The end of my taper was a non event  Maybe  the Xanax pill licker had the right idea. I have a very dilute suspension of Valium in Ora-Plus that is getting pretty old and I just dip the tip of my 1ml syringe in it without drawing any up and lick the outside of it every so often. Right now I'm doing it about once every 3 days. My actual taper ended a couple of months ago and I basically feel fine most of the time which is the same as I felt the last few months of my taper. Stepping off, jumping or whatever you want to call it certainly can be a non-event for most. I'll probably quit "dipping" when I just forget to do it. I completely disagree with Ashton when she says .5mg just keeps the dependency going. If you do the math, .5mg of Valium provides a lot of molecules for each GABA receptor our bodies contain.  Ashton did not publish evidence that she had significant experience with patients doing tapers that were much longer than her guidelines.  She was also generally against supplements as she thought they were ineffective. My personal experience was otherwise. It seems a lot of people develop a high degree of sensitivities to all kinds of things well into their tapers. I'll bet this is a related phenomena to the extreme sensitivity to our benzos at the taper's end and is probably why a lot of people experience a tough time at the end of and just after their tapers are completed.

 

Hey Bird

Nice graph

 

Bart

[[OM...]]

bart,

 

Do you think that a daily taper could allow me to taper a bit quicker than the cut and hold method?

 

 

NFM, as long as you feel well at the end of your taper, then your way of doing it worked well for you. Everyone has there own way that works for them and I think that knowing that is what helps us immensely throughout our taper. It depends on the person. It is individual to each. I think for those that have a hard time at lower doses or had to taper slower than average, especially at the end, that is where going to a lower dose has it's merits. There are those who don't have any issue jumping at .5mg. It really depends on the person and what they feel safest doing. Usually they have a sense of things as they get toward the end or if they have had issues with their taper. It's all very individual in the end. This thread aims to support people doing whatever method works for them and helping those who seek it find how to taper with minimal WD if they need that help.

 

Sounds like you are doing well which is really all that matters in the end.

[[An...]]

Hi Bart,

Congratulations .. Such a wonderful accomplishment

 

Can you please take a look at my situation on this thread, and give your thoughts?

I will be most grateful ..

 

Thank you Bart, and again, you are very courageous

Wishing you continuous wellness .

Anu

[[An...]]

Hi OM,

I have been going around in circles trying to find a link that you posted of the old forum TRAP.

Unfortunately, I cannot remember where I saw it ..

Can you please guide me to it?

Thank you OM, you are terrific ..

Anu