SLOW TAPER SUPPORT THREAD - slow and steady is your pace

[[os...]]

Hi oscar,

 

The thread is only a few days old, so it's easy to miss. Welcome!

 

What benzo are you on?

 

Hi OMGWTH,

 

I am tapering Librium, I am almost at the equivalent of 2.9 mg Valium.

 

I have been at this taper for 29 months from 12 mg Valium equivalent.

 

If anyone ever tapered slow, it is me... I am not looking at being off this crap for a long time.

 

I think I will not even reach 2 mgs for another year at least... I have heard from quite a few that it gets better at 2 mg and below (this is equivalent to 5 mg Librium which is the lowest dose capsule).

 

I am hoping that as I have taken so long to get that low, that by the time I do eventually reach 2 mgs, that this starts to get MUCH better as right now, whilst I have seen a lot of improvement, this is not really getting any easier.

 

I will have been at this about 42 months (maybe even 50 months) by the time I reach 2 mgs, if I am not feeling a lot more quality of life come back by that point, I am not entirely sure I will carry on...

 

If I have been tapering up to 50 months by that point and withdrawals are still a constant threat... with not much quality of life back, I may just decide to reinstate and stay on for life... I really messes my head up seeing people struggle below .25 mg... and after over 22 year of use, I often wonder if I will end up suffering for years once off this junk... it really depresses me to be honest.

 

I think slow is most definitely the way to go, time and time again I have seen others on here speed up due to feeling good only for them to have to updose and hold for months to get stable again... MY problem is that I think my healing rate is so slow that my total taper time will more than likely be somewhere around the 7 year mark... never in a million years did I think this would take that long...

 

Something tells me that my taper rate is excessively slow, yet I suffer after every reduction despite being very small (I daily taper for 3 days and then hold)... I cannot trust daily tapering in an ongoing way anymore as they build up and there is just no way of knowing when things are already too far ahead... so now I use cut and hold but with micro cuts... which is taking forever.

 

Many think that being in a slow taper is easy... it is not, often it takes every ounce of my being to not just decide to quit this drug faster... but I tapered daily for 7.5 months without a single days hold from the start of my taper and ended up hitting a wall at 110 mph... and it was really awful, big panic attacks, massive back cramps, huge adrenaline surges every morning for a week, even the sound of a light switch being clicked on would go right through my body... in a word, it was a week of sheer terror and I never, ever want to go back to that place again... unless I am actually OFF the drug.

 

I taper so slow now as if that happened again before I got off, I do not think for a second I would have any motivation left at all to carry on with this taper... I hate going so slow as I really want my life back, yet I know how horrific withdrawal can be and people do not reinstate at .5 mg of Valium after a long taper for no reason... they have no choice... I see 1 and 2 year tapers on here all the time and many still suffering 2 years off... in MY mind, I think that the minimal taper length for long term users should be 3 years... ideally 4 years.

 

I am putting in 4 years to this taper and then I am going to see what my quality of life is like... many that had a hard taper found that by 2 mgs and below they were out walking again and living a much more active life... this is what I am counting on... MUCH of my fog has cleared and I do feel as if I am healing, but my wellness is solely dependent on how slow I go... and it is insanely slow... but I know the alternative and it is that level of suffering I am trying to avoid...

 

If tapering for 42-50 months does not put a massive dent in my overall wellness... I will have to re-evaluate... because the price of getting off this drug may just be more than I am willing to accept... life is short and this is taking years of my life from me, if it is not considerably better a year from now, I will seriously think about whether or not withdrawal is for me, solely based on the amount of years I have been on the drug and the high probability it will take me years more to get free... I am not at all sure it is worth it in my position... as much as I would love to be benzo free, never in a million years was I bargaining for 7 years of tapering.

 

 

[[mr...]]

 

A member here, mtmimi tapered really slow and yet was hit at .5 mg V but she managed to get stable by a month holding and slowing down her rate, by .4 mg she was feeling pretty much there BUT she still had no idea what was to come and despite the fact she stepped off, it still took her an additional 8 months to fully recover.

 

Perseus was going VERY slowly here and yet she has mysteriously vanished off the face of the Earth, she has not even logged on in many months, let alone posted... no goodbye, no warning and it worries me that despite tapering so very slowly, that there can come a point, at any low dose, that things just kick off anyway... the way I see it is that if she were still well, she would have logged on by now... another member that disappeared at .02 was JOHAN05... he was doing pretty well and posted that he was about to jump but changed his mind and decided to ride it down to zero... but again, he completely vanished also... not a word of reaching zero.

 

Here is perseus's last post

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=17837

 

I would bet she found her life again and completely forgot out benzobuddies.

This happened when my mom was off and doing well.

I didn't come back until she had to withdrawal again.

If you worry too much about going lower, this will just make you more anxious about it.

It may not be possible to be completely symptoms free by the time we get to zero, but the slow taper should stop acute withdrawals.

Even when my mom tapered off of lorazepam, stopping at .125mg, she went thru acute w/d for 3 months and then, things got so much better.

[[os...]]

 

A member here, mtmimi tapered really slow and yet was hit at .5 mg V but she managed to get stable by a month holding and slowing down her rate, by .4 mg she was feeling pretty much there BUT she still had no idea what was to come and despite the fact she stepped off, it still took her an additional 8 months to fully recover.

 

Perseus was going VERY slowly here and yet she has mysteriously vanished off the face of the Earth, she has not even logged on in many months, let alone posted... no goodbye, no warning and it worries me that despite tapering so very slowly, that there can come a point, at any low dose, that things just kick off anyway... the way I see it is that if she were still well, she would have logged on by now... another member that disappeared at .02 was JOHAN05... he was doing pretty well and posted that he was about to jump but changed his mind and decided to ride it down to zero... but again, he completely vanished also... not a word of reaching zero.

 

Here is perseus's last post

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=17837

 

I would bet she found her life again and completely forgot out benzobuddies.

This happened when my mom was off and doing well.

I didn't come back until she had to withdrawal again.

If you worry too much about going lower, this will just make you more anxious about it.

It may not be possible to be completely symptoms free by the time we get to zero, but the slow taper should stop acute withdrawals.

Even when my mom tapered off of lorazepam, stopping at .125mg, she went thru acute w/d for 3 months and then, things got so much better.

 

According to the converter I use, .125 mg Lorazepam is equivalent to 3.125 mg Librium... I would not consider this low enough to jump but I suppose it is doable.

 

Perseus was a very active poster here and was helping others out and she was logging her progress also... it just strikes me as odd that she has not even logged on, I get that people quit posting but I would have thought that out of curiosity that she would take a peek on here just to see how others are doing... but then again, maybe she feels so good that she simply has no interest at all any more... you could be right but I guess I need to get lower before I start to feel some real healing going on, I mean, I already have but it is not enough to give me back the small amount of quality of life I so badly need at this point... so a part of me can feel very negative as this 3 mg to 2 mg phase sure is tricky... I recall Vertigo thought this was a difficult phase in his taper also... I need some more healing in order to feel better about getting off this drug.

 

I hope Perseus is doing well, I really do... unfortunately these people that just vanish leave us with no clue as to how they are either way... hopefully you are right mrtmeo.

 

 

[[OM...]]

oscar, maybe a daily taper would help you more as it sounds like you are getting hit when you cut. I know I had to drop my taper to 5% every three weeks to be able to deal with the cut so now I'm trying daily tapering. Or is that what you mean by micro tapreing?

 

Perseus' posts seem very positive. I would suspect that she has moved on. Thinking the worse when someone is no longer around doesn't really help since there is no way of knowing why they left though generally people just decide it is time to move on.

 

mtmimi you say took 8 months to fully recover... well that's pretty much a record around here. And considering that at 8 months she was FULLY recovered, it's likely that months earlier she was doing pretty well which if you figure it was around month 6 to be doing pretty well that's excellent. Less than 1 year after stopping this person was fully recovered. Think about that for a minute and compare it to the 14-18 months people as a norm in this forum seem to take to get back to near 100%. I've seen the posts from many people who are a year or longer out and they are still having symptoms, dealing with waves (though they may get good windows). To be healed at 8 months is EXCELLENT. To belittle that is to dismiss just how positive that is. And this is FULLY healed. It wasn't even a year. It was a couple of seasons. I have a friend who was also fully healed at 8 months. She tapered down to .01mg K with a stop at .005 before stepping off. She had a bad time at three months but it passed and by 8 months she was healed too. That is well under the average which is 14-18 months if I remember correctly.

 

Bart, what are the best 1ml syringes? The ones I get are pretty good but the lines between each number are a bit hard to read but that might be my aged eyes. I need a second set of magnifying glasses.      I thought maybe you might know of the best 1ml syringes out there.

 

 

[[An...]]

 

 

 

'Hi Anu

How much were the 2 cuts you made? The best way to do a minimally symptomatic taper is to first become minimally symptomatic if at all possible. This is done any way you can. Maybe it will take a long hold, updosing, tapering up, switching benzos or who knows what. If you can't reduce symptoms, just be sure and get to a place where symptoms are not getting worse. With a nice gentle taper you can make corrections when your symptoms tick up and I suspect your symptoms will begin to fade as you go along. Mine did. I don't know what effects stopping the A/D will have. Re-emergence of previous psychological issues is always a possibility and I would think that some sort of therapy directed at them would be helpful during your taper.'

 

Thank you very much Bart,

I appreciate your sound advise very much.

The first cut was .125mgs in early August. I held for 4 weeks, but was not completely stable when I cut again, 0.625mgs

in mid Sept.

This cut was brutal, but it may have been lag time catching up. Anyway, I have been suffering and am debilitated. I have been holding for over 11 weeks, with no sign of stability, with many symptoms cycling in and out, and others staying permanently it seems, creating havoc.

You suggest updosing, but how do I determine how much to updose?

Also,  I am not familiar with "tapering up" How is that done?

Bart, both the AD and the Ativan were prescribed for Hyperthyroidism, by a GP. I was over medicated for the condition, but sadly, I did not question it .. I trusted the doctor

Thank you again for taking the time to help.

I am grateful, and wish you continuous good health.

Love, Anu 

[[os...]]

 

Bart,

 

Please ignore my post above... you taper how you see fit... I am just down in the dumps today... (it will pass)...

 

You have done an amazing job at tapering and see the value in getting very, very low... that takes a lot of patience, I really respect you for that as most jump way too soon and wonder what the heck hit them... I don't think you will have a hugely hard time once you quit now... I really hope you stick around to let others know if your hard work paid off, others disappear and never coming back to even post once seems to me to be pretty selfish, we all act like brothers and sisters on here but in truth, many just leave and that always really is disappointing... great if they are getting on with life but a sentence to that effect would be nice, if not at least to give others encouragement... but people are people... that's why I prefer cats.

 

 

[[OM...]]

I taper so slow now as if that happened again before I got off, I do not think for a second I would have any motivation left at all to carry on with this taper... I hate going so slow as I really want my life back, yet I know how horrific withdrawal can be and people do not reinstate at .5 mg of Valium after a long taper for no reason... they have no choice... I see 1 and 2 year tapers on here all the time and many still suffering 2 years off... in MY mind, I think that the minimal taper length for long term users should be 3 years... ideally 4 years.

 

I am putting in 4 years to this taper and then I am going to see what my quality of life is like... many that had a hard taper found that by 2 mgs and below they were out walking again and living a much more active life... this is what I am counting on... MUCH of my fog has cleared and I do feel as if I am healing, but my wellness is solely dependent on how slow I go... and it is insanely slow... but I know the alternative and it is that level of suffering I am trying to avoid...

 

Edited to add: It is not uncommon for people to feel worse or more challenged at lower doses. I'm not exactly sure why that it. I always thought it would be the opposite, but perhaps our bodies are clinging to the benzos they have or glutamate is responding more while the gaba receptors are still in a state of recovery. Most people find they have to taper even slower at the low doses, which is a challenge if you are already going slow because it means more time. But considering the payoff, that you will feel better and be recovering and still be tapering but in a better frame of mind, it's worth it. Looking around the forum, it seems the tail end of the taper gets challenging for many. Often they speed it up or jump only to end up in a world of hurt. But if you need to go slower, then you need to go slower. The journey should not be a challenge (though the patience for a long journey might be). The end goal is to look back with a lot of healing done and see that it wasn't years of hell when you finally do stop taking the benzo.

 

I hope you feel better soon.

 

If tapering for 42-50 months does not put a massive dent in my overall wellness... I will have to re-evaluate... because the price of getting off this drug may just be more than I am willing to accept... life is short and this is taking years of my life from me, if it is not considerably better a year from now, I will seriously think about whether or not withdrawal is for me, solely based on the amount of years I have been on the drug and the high probability it will take me years more to get free... I am not at all sure it is worth it in my position... as much as I would love to be benzo free, never in a million years was I bargaining for 7 years of tapering.

 

Oscar, you seem to be in quite a state and you don't seem very optimistic about your recovery. In fact, you seem to think it's doomed. I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe I can help you feel a bit better. Often a change in perspective can help.

 

I've found the best way to deal with a long taper is to see how far you've come. Look at the improvements you've felt and the difference in your dosage since you started. These things can help us feel good about the time we have spent getting here and allow us to feel like we have accomplished a lot more than we might think, especially when we feel like we have ages to go in our taper or are not feeling well during out taper. Changing how you look at this could make a world of difference. Think of all the healing you've had as a result of your taper thus far. That's no small feat. And while others maybe have gone faster, how were their symptoms along the way and especially at whatever point they are now? Though I do feel it is best to not compare ourselves to others as it is a fruitless endeavor that yields nothing good, I occasionally fall victim to it when I see how fast others are tapering. But then I remind myself of how well I've been feeling most of the time, that even my WD times weren't that bad (except for the really bad round of acute WD last year), and how far I've come since I started, with no major WD at all. Doing this shifts me from dwelling on the length of my taper and getting negative as a result of it.

[[mr...]]

 

According to the converter I use, .125 mg Lorazepam is equivalent to 3.125 mg Librium... I would not consider this low enough to jump but I suppose it is doable.

 

Perseus was a very active poster here and was helping others out and she was logging her progress also... it just strikes me as odd that she has not even logged on, I get that people quit posting but I would have thought that out of curiosity that she would take a peek on here just to see how others are doing... but then again, maybe she feels so good that she simply has no interest at all any more... you could be right but I guess I need to get lower before I start to feel some real healing going on, I mean, I already have but it is not enough to give me back the small amount of quality of life I so badly need at this point... so a part of me can feel very negative as this 3 mg to 2 mg phase sure is tricky... I recall Vertigo thought this was a difficult phase in his taper also... I need some more healing in order to feel better about getting off this drug.

 

I hope Perseus is doing well, I really do... unfortunately these people that just vanish leave us with no clue as to how they are either way... hopefully you are right mrtmeo.

 

Hi Oscar,

From 2.5mg down to 1.7mg, my mom's symptoms were high, but now, at 1.3mg, she is doing better.

I am doing a daily taper now, and will see if things get better.

From what I have read, many seem to get a little better once below 1mg, so I am hopeful.

[[OM...]]

Oscar, I wanted to add that I know how hard a slow taper is. I am just finishing my first year and I have several years to go due to the high dose of K that I am on, the pace I need to taper at and how low I have to go because K is 20x more potent than valium. I try not to think about it and just keep moving along. I try not to concern myself with the years ahead though at time it does get to me. Mostly I try to keep myself busy and let the days and months pass so then I realize I've just cut another nice piece off my dose. Not as much as others going faster than me, but I am not them. I am me. And I have to accept that my body heals at the rate it does. That's the best I can do. Mostly, it's a mindgame. Not letting ourselves get too stressed when we see how long it has or will take us  and remembering the reason why we are going slower.

[[os...]]

Oscar, I wanted to add that I know how hard a slow taper is. I am just finishing my first year and I have several years to go due to the high dose of K that I am on, the pace I need to taper at and how low I have to go because K is 20x more potent than valium. I try not to think about it and just keep moving along. I try not to concern myself with the years ahead though at time it does get to me. Mostly I try to keep myself busy and let the days and months pass so then I realize I've just cut another nice piece off my dose. Not as much as others going faster than me, but I am not them. I am me. And I have to accept that my body heals at the rate it does. That's the best I can do. Mostly, it's a mindgame. Not letting ourselves get too stressed when we see how long it has or will take us  and remembering the reason why we are going slower.

 

You are right OMG, it IS a mindgame... staying slow is like a constant battle of wits in a way... but despite the fact I have healed in many, many ways... I am still not at a place where this seems to be getting easier.

 

I am out of the huge fog I was in for so long and yes, my brain adjusted only a couple of months ago once again and it was like a dimmer switch on life being turned up a good few notches, the clarity is coming back and at times I do feel reasonably well but ever since I hit 3 mg V equiv, although clarity has increased, it is actually a lot harder to maintain wellness... I seem to feel every reduction and I actually could not go any slower if I tried...

 

I could say my symptoms are manageable... I have not had inner vibrations in a few months now and I also have not had bad morning anxiety for quite some time... yet that said, I still feel pretty unwell a lot of the time and my motivation can be OK for awhile and be completely off at other times...

 

Despite improvements that are pretty dramatic... I still have no life... my life IS withdrawal and it can be so discouraging getting lower and feeling bad still... I just had 2 days of bad head pressure with a hot face, some sweating again and my stomach is literally all to hell again... I have not had such a bad stomach in ages... I mean, it's literally messed up again.

 

Honestly, I think I am doing well and for awhile I was but then I get symptomatic again and it can just really be an absolute bore after all this time... I usually know when I am well as I listen to music on headphones and enjoy movies, I seem to not be able to do either very well at the moment... maybe it is just the cut but if I cut for 3 days and then hold, to still feel ill for almost 2 weeks gets really old you know?

 

I am healing, I have no doubt about that but getting lower is just really hard going at times... and I just want to reach a point where a light comes on... a point where I can say to myself "I know I am going to make it now"... it seems to me that a few have this moment of revelation at 2 mgs... it is my opinion that those that do not have often tapered too fast PRIOR to reaching that dose.

 

When I started this 29 months ago, never in a million years did I think I would still be tapering... I thought it would take a year, then I realized it may take 18 months and here I am, at 29 months almost and I still have so much further to go.

 

After all these years on the drug, I just sometimes cannot imagine being free and recovered... it seems too far off for me... but I am hanging on and hoping that things get better and better as I get lower, Lord knows I am certainly doing all I can to stay as symptom free as possible but that does not take away the fact that I have a lot of FEAR in this process... a lot of this has to do with hitting a bad wall before and I thought I had suffered a lot up until that point... I was wrong, when things are already bad and one pushes, withdrawal can be a truly terrifying experience... so, in the grand scheme of things, I am doing relatively well given my years on the drug, however, I still have anxiety to the point where I sometimes do not want to be in the house alone...it is better than it was but at the same time, it's not getting any easier to get lower... and that is what I am really struggling with right now.

 

There is this idea that with a slow taper you can just get on with life... it has never been that way for me... not ever... my mind is clearing more and more but I know that if I as much as slightly over taper and my mornings will be hell again and at this point I would probably get the shakes also... sometimes I can feel all the nasty stuff just bubbling under and it can be very hard to stay on the "better" side of "wellness"... I won't lie, it is a struggle... and involves more and more patience which is why this HAS to get better at 2 mg as if it does not, IF it does not, I may quite simply not have the motivation or desire to continue... I hope and pray I will but at this point, I am literally crawling down and that has simply got to start paying off soon... but unfortunately, even with extremely slow and careful tapering, sometimes some symptoms are present regardless and so it's not easy simply by going super slow for some... I may not be in Hell but I am far, far from living life either... so at some point, I am going to need a pretty good sign that this is going to be worth all the struggle and if that takes another year, so be it but it better come soon after.

 

At the start of this taper, I thought that by 3 mg Valium equivalent, this would be so much easier... these days I know that this can still seem like a monumental journey even at 1 mg... and I can't help but wonder sometimes, at what point does this actually start to get better??? I may not be bedridden any more but I am sure as heck not living yet... and after 2.5 years, it can get a little depressing to think there is so much more to go... but fingers crossed, maybe this may be my last year ahead of really struggling with this... although it will not surprise me in the least if that is just wishful thinking... but that said, some that have had a bad withdrawal down to 2mg have felt so much better, if we truly DO heal as we taper, it only makes sense that at some point it DOES get easier... the key to it, as always, is not to be tempted to cut bigger as that always messes things up...

 

Last word... I did feel a shift in my brain at 3 mg Valium equivalent and it was like I got a huge feeling of clarity back almost over night, I could feel it happening... so maybe, just maybe, that will happen again at 2 mg and it is quite possible that, taken very slowly, the last 2 mgs to zero can actually be achieved with a general feeling of more well being over all... tapering this slow has to account for something and I am sure it WILL pay off but I get my days where I wonder... especially when some are adamant that healing does not even start until we are off... I would say that only applies to people that tapered faster than their own healing rate and therefore could not FEEL that healing was taking place... I just wish some more slow taper people that actually got free would come back to say it does pay off to go slow but unfortunately, we do not see a lot of that on this forum.

 

I should quit being negative really... it is just that I get periods in this taper where the whole thing really gets to me, especially when I am not feeling well... yet no doubt it will pass... I am not about to quit just yet but often I can literally only do this at a tenth of a mg at a time in terms of looking ahead... the mere thought of still doing this even a year from now is just depressing, so I have to think in increments and forget about being off this drug... I guess it will happen eventually, I just hope all this patience pays off... because I am literally doing all I can to get off this drug in the most sensible way I know how... I guess I just need to get to that place where I can truly see there is an end to this and as yet, that has not happened... I guess it has to happen at some point and until then, it is just going to have to be a case of having blind faith as often that is all I have right now... I had a true window once at 4 mg and it was totally amazing, for a couple of hours EVERYTHING lifted and I felt like I was 19 years old again... and life felt incredible... all of this seemed like a distant dream... so I have that to fight for... I got a glimpse of real life and it was incredible...

 

They say it is worth it... and I still believe them... but dang, this journey is so damn long... but everything ends... I guess this will too.

 

 

[[OM...]]

Oscar, you say you cut for 3 days then hold. Maybe try changing that to more like cut 2 days then hold, then cut 3 days then hold, then cut 2 and hold. That might give your body a little reprieve because it sounds like you are getting hit with rounds of WD and slowing your taper very modestly, like every other hold cutting for two days instead of three might give you a little extra time to adjust. I know you don't want to slow down but it might make enough of a difference in the long run to pull you out of these rounds of WD you're getting.

[[os...]]

Oscar, you say you cut for 3 days then hold. Maybe try changing that to more like cut 2 days then hold, then cut 3 days then hold, then cut 2 and hold. That might give your body a little reprieve because it sounds like you are getting hit with rounds of WD and slowing your taper very modestly, like every other hold cutting for two days instead of three might give you a little extra time to adjust. I know you don't want to slow down but it might make enough of a difference in the long run to pull you out of these rounds of WD you're getting.

 

I will more than likely do that but in all honesty, I am cutting so small daily now that any slower and I am almost at a halt... it may help me get down a little more but at this rate it will take years and years to get off...

 

My latest symptom is tight neck and shoulders and I have not had many cramps or aches in withdrawal, most of my stuff has been dread, fear, anxiety, whatever you choose to call it... it is the dread that I hate more than anything... that fear that is chemical, there is no way that is regular anxiety... that is what I want a reprieve in more than anything... when anxiety is absent, I feel pretty darn good... but the hard part now seems to be that the drug is having very little effect and that is why I think the lower doses are the hardest to taper... as there simply isn't enough benzo to buffer anxiety... I'll get lower, there have been times I have been convinced I can't taper any longer but somehow, it happens.

 

 

[[OM...]]

If you are having a difficult time then a little cut by not cutting .001 ever seventh day is not going to be a huge deal time wise but it could give you the little extra buffer you need.

 

No doubt a portion of you anxiety is over the length of your taper. I understand that. It sucks to be tapering for that long. Even worse when you are suffering. Well, if you can do something to mitigate that suffering that is not a huge effect on your taper, then it's worth a try, no?

 

You have two main issues as I see it:

 

1 - the length of your taper/ how much longer it will take you

2 - that you have not been doing as well as you want and that symptoms keep rearing their head or worsening

 

If you can do something to help ease up #2 then #1 one bother you as much. Nobody likes tapering especially a long time, but if the discomfort felt while tapering can be minimized then time becomes less relevant.

 

Just a suggestion based on many of your posts that keep repeating these two issues. You are very focused on the fear. A portion of this is part of WD which is why I suggest making a very minor alteration to see if it helps a bit. The idea is to taper at the rate we heal to mitigate misery along the way. Right now you seem to be high on the misery end of things. It's not always about the destination, particularly when it takes a long time to get there. That is when it becomes more about the journey and less about the destination.

[[os...]]

If you are having a difficult time then a little cut by not cutting .001 ever seventh day is not going to be a huge deal time wise but it could give you the little extra buffer you need.

 

No doubt a portion of you anxiety is over the length of your taper. I understand that. It sucks to be tapering for that long. Even worse when you are suffering. Well, if you can do something to mitigate that suffering that is not a huge effect on your taper, then it's worth a try, no?

 

You have two main issues as I see it:

 

1 - the length of your taper/ how much longer it will take you

2 - that you have not been doing as well as you want and that symptoms keep rearing their head or worsening

 

If you can do something to help ease up #2 then #1 one bother you as much. Nobody likes tapering especially a long time, but if the discomfort felt while tapering can be minimized then time becomes less relevant.

 

Just a suggestion based on many of your posts that keep repeating these two issues. You are very focused on the fear. A portion of this is part of WD which is why I suggest making a very minor alteration to see if it helps a bit. The idea is to taper at the rate we heal to mitigate misery along the way. Right now you seem to be high on the misery end of things. It's not always about the destination, particularly when it takes a long time to get there. That is when it becomes more about the journey and less about the destination.

 

OMG, it's hard to explain but I will try...

 

You are right, I have a LOT of fear in this taper, I always have since that dreadful hit at 4 mg... but I pushed on when I felt terrible and that is where I went horribly wrong... but once you hit very severe withdrawal, it is hard not to fear it happening again...

 

Sometimes I get what I call chemical anxiety, this has happened a few times in my taper, usually, I can be doing something quite ordinary like preparing food in my kitchen and all of a sudden I get a feeling of dropping... a bit like being in an elevator that drops a few feet... and simultaneously, it feels like my nervous system sort of powers off/shuts down... and it is replaced with a feeling of dread... now I will say this much, that has not happened in a long time BUT I still get the feeling of dread come back sometimes but it seems to be a tiny bit less than it used to be, so that seems to be a good sign...

 

Anxiety has always been my absolute worst symptom in this whole taper, anything else I can cope with but the anxiety is something that I struggle with terribly and I absolutely know it is the drug and NOT me.

 

What is hard for me is the length of time I am trapped in this taper, that I would agree with and yes, I can put it out of my mind a lot of the time, I sure have had enough practice at being patient but now and then, I get what I call "catastrophic thinking" which is when I get some anxiety come back and along with it I can end up thinking "OMG I am never going to get off this drug" and in general, my thoughts become extremely negative and dark and sometimes I think this whole thing is just a complete nightmare.

 

It IS getting better OMG but it is unlikely to get MUCH easier for quite some time to come... and so yes, there is very much a mindgame here... and that is to stay in the game and not be tempted to make a faster exit...

 

I have a LOT of fears and one of my worst ones is that I will get unstable and not be able to stabilize again no matter what I do... I fear getting the shakes also and I used to fear being psychotic... I guess that fear is still present but that one is slowly getting better... these days, one of my main fears is not being able to hack the end of the taper and especially the jump off... OK, it may be easy to say not to worry about that until I get much lower but where I am at right now, I absolutely dread things getting worse and going on another spiral downwards... I guess I could always updose if things got truly desperate but I am trying so hard not to resort to that tactic any more...

 

My absolute biggest fear these days is having a long and bad post taper experience despite putting in so much time to get free and I will be honest, it seems like there is no guarantee that we can just step off although I suppose the lower we can get, the less likely things will kick off but it still worries me... the only thing I have that makes me feel better is the knowledge that I have never once made big cuts in this taper, so where i am right now is pretty much how much I have healed... but is it really possible to make the post taper bearable? What if this becomes impossibly hard at .5 mg or lower? What does one do? Updose? Jump off?

 

I don't know... it just really stresses me out how I see people at ridiculously low doses and they are still being slammed and that makes me wonder at times whether a long and slow taper actually helps at the point of quitting or are many of us still going to get a load of nasty stuff at the end of this? I have read of many that were almost at zero and they had absolutely no idea what was in store for them and that scares the crap out of me really... A member I know did a very slow taper at the end and yet said that they felt it would still take 2 YEARS to heal after stopping !!!!!! Really??? TWO YEARS??? !!!

 

It is for this very reason I think 2 year tapers are often not long enough... if ones overall healing time is 4 years, obviously a 2 year taper isn't going to cut it... that is my theory anyway...

 

Yet all that aside OMG, I can tell you that I just find, at times, the anxiety can get to me and living in fear is no fun at all and I often wonder if I will survive this journey... until I get some indicator that the chemical anxiety is a far smaller threat, I am going to feel horribly trapped in this and being under constant threat of everything turning to s**t is very hard for me to deal with at times, I have been on this drug so many years and sometimes, sometimes I just think it is too damned hard to get off... but I have these catastrophic moments or days and they pass... and somehow I lose the anxiety again and live to taper down a little more but in all honesty, I think there will come a time when withdrawal will kick in regardless and that is what is also a worry... OR maybe, with great care it will just keep on getting better... but when slow taper people say they have 2 years to go, or end up thinking they have some mysterious disease, that can be a worry also... again, another reason NOT to taper fast as too many people think of zero and then it will all be over, evidently that does NOT work for many on here but that said, it does not make it much easier being stuck on a long taper for years on end... I mean, the length of time that this takes can be enough to induce anxiety alone, and so yes, the length of this journey is very much a hard thing to wrap my head around at times, sometimes I have no more patience... life is passing me by now and I want my life back... our natural survival instincts do not jive with laying about for years waiting to get well enough to live a life again...

 

If I analyzed this properly, sometimes, I swear I would throw the towel in and forget this whole thing but something tells me to keep going... but without a doubt, this is the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my entire life and I am still not sure I am going to make it... the ONLY weapon against this that I possess that helps is patience... I guess most of my worries are due to my duration of use (22 years+ and that is something that probably explains why even at this snails pace, I have a hard time sometimes... I believe this is doable but by God, it is only through sheer patience and perseverance that anyone gets well from this... and sometimes, just sometimes I think life is too short for this crap, which is why I hope to God this does get easier in 2014... I mean, come on, anyone tapering for 2.5 years and more has gotta start feeling the real healing at some point... and if this does not happen, then clearly this is going to suck big balls until the end... I can refuse to suffer but that may mean I am not off this drug for a very long time... when I read of others going through HELL for even 6 weeks post taper, think about it, SIX WEEKS to feel like utter HELL? That is actually a really long time... and all I can do is try everything within my power to get there in a manner that allows me NOT to lose it completely en route down or indeed "stepping off"... (if there is such a thing).

 

PS: Yes, it worries me greatly when I know of others that taper so very carefully and they just disappear... it makes me wonder if the light at the end of the tunnel is indeed a train... it makes no sense to me why certain people just disappear with no warnings or goodbye's... and it makes ME think that maybe they reinstated... I could be completely wrong... but until this is done, as far as I am concerned, anything could happen.

[[bo...]]

I've just posted this in the 'Withdrawal support' board, but want to repost it here as the folk I've most come to trust have been chatting here the past few days. I'd value your thoughts. Hopefully it fits with the commitments I made myself further up this thread:

 

Feedback invited. See signature for history particularly the last few months.

Have decided to updose to steady my sx, probably to 3mg V (from current 2mg). Not willing to continue on with this intensity and range of sx - too debilitating. Will then sit tight for a while.

My understanding is that coming down 10mg-2mg by 1mg/week was just too fast for my body to heal along the way, and that's causing the problems in the past few weeks while I've held at 2mg.

[[...]]

 

My symptoms, while usually absent, are still close to the "surface" and come to say hi with even mild provocation. I'm talking about only fairly mild levels of indiscretions here.

 

Bart

 

Bart,

 

So, if I understand your post correctly, you are literally "dipping" now and not pulling... and dipping every few days... yet you say that your symptoms are still close to the surface?

 

I get the impression from this that a slow taper, whilst most certainly greatly reduces withdrawals, does not always work...

 

I am all for a symptom based taper as I have been tapering that way for a very long time now but I must admit, seeing anyone below .25 mg Valium and suffering really scares me... and anything below .02 mg, to my mind, says that whatever happens after the "jump" is unavoidable.

 

We can all bang on about being symptom free at almost zero but in all honesty, I think this is unrealistic in my opinion... there is no real evidence to say that we can "step off" these drugs and feel fine... I think, in most cases, there is some degree of withdrawal to go through...

 

It seems to me that if one is not symptom free from dipping a syringe in a dilute of Valium every 3 days, then it is unlikely to happen until off... with all due respect Bart, you have been clinging onto "fumes" for months now... this makes me feel that a step off is something we all just hope for but there is clearly a difference between being on an absolute crumb of this stuff and being off completely.

 

A member here, mtmimi tapered really slow and yet was hit at .5 mg V but she managed to get stable by a month holding and slowing down her rate, by .4 mg she was feeling pretty much there BUT she still had no idea what was to come and despite the fact she stepped off, it still took her an additional 8 months to fully recover.

 

Perseus was going VERY slowly here and yet she has mysteriously vanished off the face of the Earth, she has not even logged on in many months, let alone posted... no goodbye, no warning and it worries me that despite tapering so very slowly, that there can come a point, at any low dose, that things just kick off anyway... the way I see it is that if she were still well, she would have logged on by now... another member that disappeared at .02 was JOHAN05... he was doing pretty well and posted that he was about to jump but changed his mind and decided to ride it down to zero... but again, he completely vanished also... not a word of reaching zero.

 

I often wonder if we get hit no matter how low we get, as in all honesty, if we are not feeling mostly symptom free by less than .02 mg it seems to me that it ain't gonna happen until OFF the drug completely.

 

MY main worries here are if this taper of mine will turn to s**t no matter how slow I go... I already struggle as it is... it is a very long and often miserable journey but I remind myself it is better than speeding this up... HOWEVER, it really worries me that so much time and effort can go into a slow taper with no guarantee of feeling well once off... it seems to me that if we healed sufficiently as a result of getting lower, you would already be off by now Bart.

 

There comes a time when this can't go on... at some point that final break has to be made and I am sorry, but dipping into fumes may be a very good way to end a taper and I applaud you for your patience but I do not visit here that often and yet month after month I log in here and you are still on the fumes? Dude, if you are going to get hit once off, it is inevitable now... you have done all you can do... even I would draw the line at where you are... and in all honesty, it kind of makes me feel that we are not actually over this by ANY low dose... the only way we truly recover is by being OFF the drug.

 

I could not hang onto fumes for months... there would come a point in this where I would be utterly sick of trying to avoid the inevitable discomfort of stopping although chances are, anything you do feel will be very short lived... I am not actually convinced it is possible to step off... as quite simply, the cessation of the drug 100% is still a different phase altogether... much like cigarettes, you could be down to one puff per day but that is still keeping the dependency alive... at some point that cycle must be broken... withdrawal is withdrawal, if anyone steps off symptom free completely, I have yet to hear about it... I do not see anyone posting aggressively saying that they did a super slow taper and it ended without any issue at all... so, whilst I hate to be a downer, I think that slow is the way to go, absolutely I think that... BUT I also think there comes a point where we have to go through the post taper phase and that may or may not be an easy time... but like I say, chances are if there is any discomfort it will be short lived Bart... it is your taper but from where I am sitting, I think you have done all you can possibly do.

 

Holding onto fumes may help for a month or two and I think that is really smart... but to carry on holding at that amount, to me anyway, is a little excessive... but that is just my opinion... but in all honesty, that is such an incredulously small amount that one has to really question hanging on at that stage for so long... and it seems to prove, to me anyway, that Ashton is right, we cannot heal until we are off, that much seems to me to be quite obvious...

 

My biggest fear is tapering so low and still ending up in a bad place for a prolonged period of time... which would render this whole slow taper as pretty worthless... I am sorry to be negative but when people reinstate from jumping at 1 mg or even .5 mg... it makes me wonder just how much more effective it is to taper lower and surely symptoms should be almost gone by .01 mg but in all honesty, it looks to me as if we ALL have to navigate post taper regardless of where we jump from... or step off from... it seems to me that post taper recovery takes at least a couple of months but more often than not, up to 8 months, even after an extremely slow taper.

 

Hey Turtles

 

Some people in my condition have called themselves healed with some remaining sensitivities. Ashton also refers to this state in similar terms, and if I remember correctly she says this is not uncommon. Eventually it resolves. Needing to "toe the line" to prevent symptoms from cropping up is certainly better for my overall health, but not the most fun way to live, especially around the holidays. I intend to do more "research" over the upcoming holidays and see if my symptoms have gotten any further below the surface.

 

It certainly could all be psychological, but I'm doing the dipping (sticking the end of a 1ml syringe in a dilute Valium/Ora-Plus mix, not drawing any up and just licking the tip) just to slow the rate that the last bit of Valium leaves my tissues. I could have ordered more Ora-Plus and made an even more dilute suspension but I'm lazy and cheap and already had this left over from my taper. If you do the math, a single dose of .01mg of Valium provides at least a few 100 molecules for every cell in our bodies. If we taper all the way down to .01 we will still have many times this amount in our tissues, up to 8x our regular dose for most people according to Reg Peart, and this amount can go as high as 20x for some. This is because of the accumulation effect. Consider also that we probably have not been holding at .01mg for several weeks, but have been tapering down to that level. This means even more Valium will be in our tissues at jump time. In other words, a taper to .01mg and then jumping at that level may sound like a really conservative dose to jump from, but in fact it is not. You will be jumping when you have some odd 1000's of molecules of Valium for every cell in your body. Now, since the half life of Valium is 36-200hours, after jumping at your seemingly very low dose you will effectively be undergoing a 50% cut every 36-200 hours as far as your individual cells are concerned while your Valium levels decline. My calculations are actually quite conservative as not all cells in our bodies have receptors that will actually bind Valium which means there are more available molecules to bind to the cells that do. A 50% reduction every 36-200 hours (1 1/2-8 days) sounds pretty rapid to me and IMO, goes a long way in explaining why things may not be hunky dory for some significant period of time for a lot of people. Maybe all this is unnecessary, but it does offer an explanation of the survey finding that the hardest part of the taper for most people was at the end of and just after their tapers were over. Heck, maybe it's something like a mini c/t that people just haven't realized. It seemed reasonable to me that doing something to slow the rate that the last bit of Valium leaves my body may be helpful in the long run. I have no idea how long I'll "dip" for as it feels like my taper is over even though I'm still imbibing some Valium. I'll probably just dip less and less often until the time comes when I work out too hard one day, go out for Chinese food late that night, get plastered, get up early and have a hard day at work and have no w/d symptoms. Then I'll "jump".

[[os...]]

I've just posted this in the 'Withdrawal support' board, but want to repost it here as the folk I've most come to trust have been chatting here the past few days. I'd value your thoughts. Hopefully it fits with the commitments I made myself further up this thread:

 

Feedback invited. See signature for history particularly the last few months.

Have decided to updose to steady my sx, probably to 3mg V (from current 2mg). Not willing to continue on with this intensity and range of sx - too debilitating. Will then sit tight for a while.

My understanding is that coming down 10mg-2mg by 1mg/week was just too fast for my body to heal along the way, and that's causing the problems in the past few weeks while I've held at 2mg.

 

It seems to me (well, this is my theory after reading and studying so many others tapers and post taper experiences) that making bigger cuts all the way down to a low dose and THEN starting to micro taper or go much slower simply does not work.

 

I can tell you myself Bolders, that when I tapered DAILY non stop for 7.5 months without a single hold, even adjusting my cuts on the way down, eventually I did get hit with the most horrendous symptoms, which is absolute proof that cuts DO catch up with us, even small cuts can do this (think about it, this is why many that taper daily get symptomatic from time to time, it's quite simple, the cuts ended up exceeding the healing ability).

 

From my own experience, once in a truly bad spot, the ONLY thing to do is to rectify it by updosing... it may be worth doing this slowly as you don't really want to updose a lot if at all possible, yet that said, the most important thing to do is get stable, a rapid taper can rarely be fixed once the wheels come off... we learn, usually through a lot of suffering, that slow is almost always the only way off these drugs... but do not despair... slow gets us there and when we are suffering terribly, there is nothing worse, it makes going slow, although long and arduous, seem like an attractive alternative... as there simply is no other way for most of us in any case...

 

Good luck, get stable and take a break before you trek on down slowly... you will be OK, it's not a case of all is lost, it's not, better to do this the right way, why suffer needlessly?

 

Even tapering slowly, and I know Bart would agree, holds are an integral part of healing on the way down... and often holds need to be quite long also... so, small cuts and holds also... never taper with zero in mind... taper with wellness in mind... it's a bore and a chore but it beats being super sick.

 

 

[[Jo...]]

I'm not an expert, but I mg a week sounds way too fast to me. I'm on the first day of my first cut of .125 from 1 mg of ativan and I'm white knuckling big time and hoping to level off. If I have to stablilize at this for a month I will. Someone said it isn't a race and it's not.

 

You have to do what's best for you and not suffer needlessly.

 

Stay strong my friend and God bless you.

[[OM...]]

I've just posted this in the 'Withdrawal support' board, but want to repost it here as the folk I've most come to trust have been chatting here the past few days. I'd value your thoughts. Hopefully it fits with the commitments I made myself further up this thread:

 

Feedback invited. See signature for history particularly the last few months.

Have decided to updose to steady my sx, probably to 3mg V (from current 2mg). Not willing to continue on with this intensity and range of sx - too debilitating. Will then sit tight for a while.

My understanding is that coming down 10mg-2mg by 1mg/week was just too fast for my body to heal along the way, and that's causing the problems in the past few weeks while I've held at 2mg.

 

Once you get below 10mg cutting 1mg a week is over 10% a week which is higher than the average already high recommendations. With V's half life being quite long it can take a while to catch up. I would think that updosing to get out of a bad state and stabilize would be wise. If it can give you a chance to feel better and stabilize, it's worth a shot, no?

[[os...]]

I will correct what I said in my post above... yes, it is possible to taper faster to a lower dose before going slow but this is where many become symptomatic and unable to carry on cutting... and the usual way around that is to start microtapering, pretty much everyone has to start doing this at the lower doses... but I do think that if anyone has tapered fast initially, this could explain why some feel not so great tapering the last few mgs (well, it could very easily be a factor)... whereas someone who tapered slowly from the very start of their taper without making big cuts on the way down, may fare better... it's all a crapshoot really... but if anyone feels super bad at 3 mg or 2 mg or whatever, usually, to my mind anyhow, the culprit is usually speed at some point prior but many simply do not learn this until it is too late.

 

The whole idea of getting to the last few mgs in a rapid fashion merely converts to healing that has not taken place post taper... it's pretty obvious that many of us have to put the time in regardless, so we have a choice, taper slow from the start and ensure healing en route down or expect to have to wait out a possibly long healing time post taper, there is no short cut in benzo withdrawal, there never has been and probably never will be in my opinion.

 

I see it this way, if someone's pre-determined healing rate is 3 years, only a 3 year taper will allow a gentle taper and step off... I could be wrong here, some manage to taper faster at the end and still be healed within months but in some cases, withdrawal can return even after some absence of symptoms... to my mind, the absolute best way to do this is slowly from the start... but everyone is different but from looking at this site... it seems to me that a sensible healing time frame is 3.5 - 4 years... so slow it down people... the brain can't be rushed, it simply does not adapt that fast...

 

ALL problematic withdrawals are all due to TIMING being off... there was an Australian neurologist that suggested that some people could taper within a year to 2 years, others (fewer) needed up to 6 years... and his idea was that if one did not get stable within 2 weeks, to go back and do it again as the brain simply was not ready for that cut... it was his belief that nobody needs to suffer terribly in withdrawal, much of it can be minimized but that it can be a very lengthy process... it was also his opinion that HOLDS were often nowhere near long enough between cuts and suggested that holds of a month or even 6 weeks are not always a bad thing... personally, I think 3 week holds and sometimes 4 weeks is usually plenty... 1-2 week holds seem far too short when symptoms are present... I have learned the hard way... we have to feel some withdrawal sometimes but the ideal cut should not cause bad withdrawal... but cuts can catch up and the only fail proof way to avoid this is by sprinkling ones taper with many holds to allow the brain and body to keep in sync with the healing process.

 

 

[[OM...]]

If you taper faster than your body can handle it will eventually lead to WD, bad WD in some cases. Sure, you could taper really fast and if you are fine as you go then excellent. It's all about listening to your body. The problem comes in when people start getting WD symptoms and suck it up pushing through the to next cut and start a process of cutting while WD is snowballing with them as they go. That's where a lot of people really get into trouble. If you find yourself experiencing WD hold, get more stable, ideally mostly to entirely stable then continue to cut but cut less so to not end up in WD. Cutting to fast and too much are issues, but cutting when you are not stable is really the worst thing you can do. If it's just something minor, letting it go for one or two cuts is understandable but it will likely become more notable. Holding a little while things settle is a good way to keep this snowball effect from happening.

[[os...]]

Reading back over my last post makes me see the sense in tapering slowly... sometimes I read others posts on this site and it freaks me out... I do not know why I do it as I only trigger fears that don't really apply to me... I end up fearing what MAY happen and that can cause normal anxiety, sure, I still get some anxiety sometimes but going as slow as the brain and body needs should, in theory, mitigate any real bad stuff... (I say should).

 

Like OMGWTH says... it is a mindgame, it is natural for us to think that getting OFF the drug is THE most important thing... yet that is exacty what causes the most suffering... quite why Ashton's tables are so fast is clearly beyond me, the TRAP taper plan for sensitive people seems to be far closer to a more tolerable taper for most that visit here.

 

If I did Ashton at any point in my taper, I would have suffered terribly... there is just no way I could do those kind of cuts, not a chance in hell.

 

 

[[No...]]

For this reason, I also suspect that while there is a great deal of variation among people trying to get off benzos, there is less true variation than one might think after perusing these boards. IMO, with a nice long symptom based taper most of us can look forward to steadily, but slowly improving symptoms and be pretty closed to healed when we finally jump, slither, fade or whatever off (assuming you're not a nut; but than again, maybe we all are).

 

Bart the Worthless Shrink  Quote from Bart  and response to" My symptoms, while usually absent, are still close to the

  "surface" and come to say hi with even mild provocation. I'm talking about only fairly mild levels of indiscretions here."

 

      Most assume (we know what that word means) that tapering a benzo, albeit slowly, will render you symptomless at

  the end of your taper. As stated by Ashton, you do have lingering symptoms, which are not uncommon.

  I believe that your taper is based on what you are "willing to" or not "willing" to put up with sx wise,  that determines

  not only your taper rate, but the end of your taper.

 

      I find that most individuals do not have the "patience" for slow healing based tapers. Because that is what is needed

  lots and lots of patience, trail and error with the willingness to take "chances of change" along with your tapering

  method(s).

 

      I have  "surface" based symptoms too. They are just different than Bart's. No,  I don't occasionally dip into

  my Ora plus, but I don't have those molecules lingering around in my body either. I find Bart's method for ending

  his taper with Valium interesting as it has created a whole new dimension to the ever lasting word. BENZO FREE.

 

      I am Xanax Free,  I am no longer ingesting Xanax, but in reality, I am not symptomless free. 

   

  I agree with Bart, when I can go out, eat all the Chinese food I want, drink cocktails with friends, end up with a hangover

  get up at 6, run a mile then begin my day without any sx, Then I too will state as Bart, have "JUMPED".

 

          NFM

 

 

[[os...]]

If you taper faster than your body can handle it will eventually lead to WD, bad WD in some cases. Sure, you could taper really fast and if you are fine as you go then excellent. It's all about listening to your body. The problem comes in when people start getting WD symptoms and suck it up pushing through the to next cut and start a process of cutting while WD is snowballing with them as they go. That's where a lot of people really get into trouble.

 

THIS  :thumbsup:

 

This is exactly where I went wrong at 4 mg, I felt TERRIBLE but I pushed on any way, I did not even know what holding was and I was in such a bad state mentally, I could not even see logic in anything... it was BAAAAAAD and I'll never do that again...

 

Cutting when symptomatic is an absolute no no... it is true, it is the worst thing one can do... it is asking for acute symptoms... and the only way to recover from acute is to go back up enough to get stable...

 

I like the snowball analogy OMGWTH... good one. 

[[os...]]

   

I agree with Bart, when I can go out, eat all the Chinese food I want, drink cocktails with friends, end up with a hangover

get up at 6, run a mile then begin my day without any sx, Then I too will state as Bart, have "JUMPED".

 

          NFM

 

 

 

No, I get what you mean by "jumped" but the reality is, you have done that already... when you can do all the things you have listed, you will have healed... if you are no longer ingesting any benzo, then the jump is over already... unless you mean internal molecules leaving... maybe we need a new term for this?

 

You see, this whole process of even clearing out molecules gets me feeling exasperated... I mean, as much as I agree with slow... sometimes I think by the time my body processes out the last of the benzo, I'll be drawing a pension.