SLOW TAPER SUPPORT THREAD - slow and steady is your pace

[[Bi...]]

One very important thing that has been pointed out to me, by some very informed and intelligent people, is that every taper experience will be different.

 

We all walk the same path, but some will stumble along the way. Others may fall down quite often. And, others glide along just fine.

 

The point is, is that everyone will pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and make their way back to the main path.

 

It is not a race to see who finishes first or last, or who stumbled the least, or the most.

 

But, we will all share our experiences on here. That is what this forum has been created for. So, that we can all share our paths, and to help pick up the ones that may have stumbled, or fallen completely off.

 

That is why I am here. My path has now started over, and yes, I am very terrified. But, I have complete faith that as I stumble along the way, my friends on here will be on the sidelines with love, support, and encouragement.

 

Oscar, please keep traveling your path. No matter how long it takes, or how bumpy that path is, you will find your own way to the finish line.

 

And, we will all be here to cheer you on. Just as I know that you will be here to do the same for the rest of us.

 

Okay, I'm done now. 

 

Denise 

 

Your very sweet Denise

 

Well, you are definitely one of the people that has helped to put me back on my path. But, you have your work cut out for you on keeping me on it. Sucks to be you!! 

 

Denise 

 

Yah,,,  :laugh:

[[bo...]]

This is our safe haven, a place for support where we come when we feel the need to rush or see others around us ending their tapers while we still have much time on ours. We welcome people who are considering slower tapers and share the benefits we feel they have provided us. We console one another when it seems like we are never going to get it done. This is our sanctuary when it seems like the rest of BB is passing us by.

 

Hmm a bit of heat has crept into the best thread I've followed on BB - that leaves a bit of a sour taste. This excerpt from the thread author's starting post I think holds the key to how we might treat each other. The point for me is about sharing experiences, finding commonalities, seeking out wisdom and being encouragers. When judgements start getting made about others, or fixed views are expressed as being "gospel" for everyone, then  think it's easy enough for people to get their nose out of joint.

 

It's a forum - we "cyber-relate" and that's limited - I don't get a real human hug on here when tears flow because I've over this process. It's also text on a screen - no body language, no subtleties of human interaction, no ability to read to pain in another's face before deciding how to respond to them.

[[el...]]

I have been reading a lot of heated posts here, but I just want to post my experience with slow tapering.  I do know from experience that even with slow tapering, terrible s/x can occur just as with any method of getting off this poison.

 

I am slowly (2.5 years so far) tapering off .5 mg klonopin that I was on for 16 years when I started this process.  Initially I had seizure like symptoms while my body got the rude awakening that it couldn't rely on k any more.  I added 2 mg valium at this point as my buffer against seizures - I was in the process of crossing over to v but decided to just cut k directly.  The first two years were difficult as I was filled with irrational fears and had many auditory hallucinations - mostly on the verge of falling asleep.  The s/x would vary with each cut and there was no rhyme or reason to them.  I have had nightmares, facial burning, muscle aches, and stomach pains.

 

BUT, throughout the taper (except when I had terrible back pain for several days early on) I can say I have been 80% living life as I did before the taper.  I missed only a few events (such as family gatherings) and was able to muddle through most of the time as my s/x mainly occurred at night. 

 

I personally can't imagine going faster.  I currently feel OK being 80% off k.  I can say that I feel healing happening. 

 

I hope this gives others encouragement.  IMO I believe healing happens as we go along in this process.

 

Wishing you all the best -

 

 

[[OM...]]

BUT, throughout the taper (except when I had terrible back pain for several days early on) I can say I have been 80% living life as I did before the taper.  I missed only a few events (such as family gatherings) and was able to muddle through most of the time as my s/x mainly occurred at night. 

 

I personally can't imagine going faster.  I currently feel OK being 80% off k.  I can say that I feel healing happening. 

 

I hope this gives others encouragement.  IMO I believe healing happens as we go along in this process.

 

Wishing you all the best -

 

Such a wonderful post. Thanks for taking the time to share this, ellen. I wish you wonderful healing as you continue.  :smitten:

[[Bi...]]

I have often wondered if a super slow taper is spoiling me. I feel a little better every week so is it making me soft?  Will I be able to suffer when the time comes?  Just thinking out loud. Does anyone ever think that?  Or is it just me 

[[OM...]]

I have often wondered if a super slow taper is spoiling me. I feel a little better every week so is it making me soft?  Will I be able to suffer when the time comes?  Just thinking out loud. Does anyone ever think that?  Or is it just me 

 

Having gone though acute WD for several months and heavy WD for several more, I can say that I have a very strong desire to avoid it. My taper is slower than yours and I don't think it's super slow. I think it's what it is - what my body can handle. I supposed I could go faster but then I would have more WD which would then start snowballing until it's bad. I don't think of it as soft so much as I think of it as choosing between avoiding suffering and not being reckless. In your case, you've already been though hell and are getting back on track now. I don't really see that as being soft. I see that as being smart. And if you had to accept going through a rough time later to finally get off, you would deal with it. But logically speaking, I think the idea is to minimize it and that's what we're doing.

 

I think the thing that is the real issue is that we see so many people on this forum suffering pretty badly. Yet I know of people who have done benzo tapers with minimal WD or some WD spikes but nothing like what you see around here. They took a few years to get off 1mg K. I'm coming off 3.5mg and nearing the half the dose for just under a year mark. But we see people getting off their doses faster and then this 'slow taper' becomes a real *thing*. If you are going at the rate your body can handle before WD spikes up to some kind of consistent discomfort that messes with your functioning, then how can that truly be slow? And is it making you soft or are you just thinking that because you aren't suffering like you were. I think the less WD you have the better you fare because it's taxing and over time, that will leave you worse for wear. Thinking becomes irrational. Emotions are all over the place. You really aren't stable at all in that state. That's just not a good place to be. It should be avoided. But around here, it seems like the norm. Yet it doesn't have to be. That's the purpose of this thread.

 

I think after reading a lot of this forum regularly, those who opt to taper at the rate they heal to minimize suffering and WD might start to wonder about it as you are, but the thing is, what if much of the suffering we see is avoidable and only happening because people are going too fast. That skews everything. So is it being soft or is it just being wise about how you taper. I guess I would probably fall into the soft category but I can handle the suffering. I just want to avoid it as I don't see any benefits to it. Should I one day have to suffer like I did before, I'll deal with it as best as I can, but getting in a lot of healing time with minimal suffering for now feel like a wise way to go. But that's just my .02 on it.

[[...]]

I couldn't agree more with the above. IMO, most people are suffering from going too fast.

 

Bird

I suppose you could try tapering a little faster and see what happens. You could always go back quite easily. A big advantage of the daily small cut method is problems should be easier to correct than when doing cut and hold. I bumped up my cut rate a time or two for a short while but then had to go back to my lesser rate. I usually kept being surprised to find how slower and slower I needed to go.

 

 

[[Di...]]

I'm not sure what went wrong with this thread. I will admit that I haven't been reading a lot of posts the last couple of days because I've been so busy at work, with Christmas looming.

 

Oscar, I'm not sure why you are being made to feel the way you do, or why you received a PM. Everyone should be able to post whatever they want (in keeping with the rules of course), and you are entitled to as much support as anyone else. This thread is in the "support groups" section, and that's what it should be about.

[[Sm...]]

Agree with OMGWTH

 

P.S I like your ticker but we need tortoises not hares right?

[[Sm...]]

Tortoise acquired: I may as well have a moment's fun with my slow taper considering some signs of symptoms looks as though I'll have to drop my taper rate a teeny bit for this second half of 7mg

[[So...]]

I have often wondered if a super slow taper is spoiling me. I feel a little better every week so is it making me soft?  Will I be able to suffer when the time comes?  Just thinking out loud. Does anyone ever think that?  Or is it just me 

 

This is what I am hoping for. A slow taper that is minimal in symptoms. I don't think you will suffer when the time comes.

 

Bart has already proven that.

 

Denise 

[[Bi...]]

Thanks OMGWTH and bart,

I guess I feel guilty for feeling too good but all I can really compare this experience too is C/T so maybe it has messed with my thinking. There is so much suffering around us and it ends up making me feel guilty for some odd reason like maybe something bad just has to be around the next corner, but it never comes.  Sometimes I feel like I am cheating fate or something.  But what you guys say makes sense and I believe in the slow philosophy.

 

Hey smiff I love that ticker

 

Hey Oscar, I have done lots of reading and know that some people have problems around the 2mg V mark.  bart even had problems at that level.  I saw your post where you said you should just jump from 2-3mg and be done with it. That makes no sense. Just keep going and maybe even try an extreme micro taper.  So what if it takes you a few more years to get off, never quit, never stop trying. Move down very slowly.  I also would not recommend a high jump, I have been there and it ended badly for me :'( :'( :'( Nothing wrong with dropping slowly for a long long time, do not feel pressured.

 

Love all you guys  :smitten:

[[Br...]]

I have done lots of reading and know that some people have problems around the 2mg V mark. 

 

Hiya Birdy!  I wonder how reliable that rule-of-thumb troublesome dose of 2mg actually is.  If people metabolize diazepam at different rates (the half-life for some is 20 hours whereas the half-life for others is 200 hours) then they wouldn't all have problems at the same 2mg dose.  Of those who hit problems, some would hit them at 3mg and others at .5mg and not necessarily at 2mg.  Maybe 2mg is the median and gets the most hits but it surely can't be the only dose.

 

 

 

 

[[OM...]]

I have done lots of reading and know that some people have problems around the 2mg V mark. 

 

Hiya Birdy!  I wonder how reliable that rule-of-thumb troublesome dose of 2mg actually is.  If people metabolize diazepam at different rates (the half-life for some is 20 hours whereas the half-life for others is 200 hours) then they wouldn't all have problems at the same 2mg dose.  Of those who hit problems, some would hit them at 3mg and others at .5mg and not necessarily at 2mg.  Maybe 2mg is the median and gets the most hits but it surely can't be the only dose.

 

I agree with this. I'm starting to wonder if people get an idea in their head and then they create this. It's the reason why things need to be tested against control groups. If you think you will have problems you will. If you think you won't depending on how much fear you have, you may or may not. Those predisposed to fear may be more likely. Sort of a self fulfilling prophecy with the part that is self fulfilling be the amount of fear you have. Fear seems to dictate a great portion of what actually happens. Removing the fear is key. This is a far less scientific approach but it is the primary reason we have control groups in studies. People develop crazy side effects that don't correlate with  anything whether on the placebo or actual treatment and people on placebos do well because they believe they have a magical pill that is working for them. 

 

2mg is probably the magical dose for valium because I think it's the dose that is labeled as being at or just below the therapeutic dose. Yet what was the criteria that caused it to be 'therapeutic'? I suspect it was some label the company created based on what pill size they chose to manufacture rather than based on science. But therapeutic goes out the window the minute you begin tapering because you are consistently pushing that tolerance threshold and each time you do, it's not really therapeutic anymore, is it? You are forcing your body to adapt.

 

[[ca...]]

I am learning a lot about "How to taper CORRECTLY" from you guys.

Birdman, I am so happy to know you are not suffering.

It think you guys have figured out the secret to getting off Benzo's…Well, other than the obvious, which is don't start people on them to begin with, and if you are unfortunate enough to be on them for longer than 2 weeks, the answer to get off is to do a very slow taper.

 

I am so glad you guys are around to show the way.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

God Speed and Continued healing to all of you….Sometimes God's Speed is in slow-mo!

 

Much love,

Causing

[[Ca...]]

Hi Friends,

  Spending time here has helped me understand the need to taper slowly. I see so much evidence in your case studies that indicate slow is the way to go. I think I am catching up in a big way...from a 14 month X taper and the beginning of a V taper. I've been holding for over a month at 1.10 mg V and see some of the MH symptoms decreasing. I felt a bit of eager anticipation today...and that has been gone for a long time. I am beginning to remember what it feels like to be well. Hoping a longer hold will bring more wellness and the courage to continue tapering. I am absolutely sure I will find my way off of this drug and heal.

Wishing you all well,

Carita

[[Di...]]

I suppose everyone is going to be different when it comes to the level they find the "hardest" or the "easiest", if they experience it at all.

 

For me the worst time was the 1mg mark, but was that because of the valium or was it because I was stupidly experimenting with things like Seriphos and Vitamin C and not picking up on the signs that they had turned on me and were now adversely affecting me?

 

I'll never know, but that level totally sucked big time. I was circling the runway for 2 months before I made a break for it. Now I feel that things have actually gotten much easier, but maybe that's because I've also learned a lot lessons the hard way and I am finally acting on the word "patience" instead of just talking about it.

[[Bi...]]

I have done lots of reading and know that some people have problems around the 2mg V mark. 

 

Hiya Birdy!  I wonder how reliable that rule-of-thumb troublesome dose of 2mg actually is.  If people metabolize diazepam at different rates (the half-life for some is 20 hours whereas the half-life for others is 200 hours) then they wouldn't all have problems at the same 2mg dose.  Of those who hit problems, some would hit them at 3mg and others at .5mg and not necessarily at 2mg.  Maybe 2mg is the median and gets the most hits but it surely can't be the only dose.

 

Hi Barban,  I read something on bluelight.ru that stuck in the back of my head. It was that drug companies always manufacture their pills so the minimum dose will also always get you hooked. 

 

Let's look at the smallest mgs. for drugs

 

Valium 2mg USA / 2.5mg Eu

Ativan .5mg

Klonopin .25mg

Xanax .25mg

and

Remeron 15mg  (that's why I only take 3.75mg as it's way under the addictive level and is more of a antihistamine verses a serotonin harvester)

 

But then again its hard to believe drug companies would do something this calculated and cruel,,,, or not?

 

I have noticed some "sticky patch" pattens at those minimum levels with other members but not always. This knowledge may cause more problems in it's self as OMGWTH points out.  But almost everyone hits a low level 'sticky patch' and I'd like to know the reason why before I get down there so I will not get ambushed.  Maybe the knowledge that a "sticky patch" is maybe coming makes it easier to deal with, that's the way I'd look at it.  Sticking my head in the sand has not worked out so well for me so far

 

[[os...]]

I suppose everyone is going to be different when it comes to the level they find the "hardest" or the "easiest", if they experience it at all.

 

For me the worst time was the 1mg mark, but was that because of the valium or was it because I was stupidly experimenting with things like Seriphos and Vitamin C and not picking up on the signs that they had turned on me and were now adversely affecting me?

 

I'll never know, but that level totally sucked big time. I was circling the runway for 2 months before I made a break for it. Now I feel that things have actually gotten much easier, but maybe that's because I've also learned a lot lessons the hard way and I am finally acting on the word "patience" instead of just talking about it.

 

I took many, many months to go from 4 mg V equiv to 3 mg as I have said before Diaz Pam... I suspect it was from previous faster tapering... my brain just wanted to ease off I guess... I remember thinking I would never reach 3 mgs, but eventually it happened... it is amazing how time passes and we find a way... it's all about doing it in sync with the brain and it can get pretty slow... I forgot how many calendars I threw out... eventually, I gave up on dates and now I just concentrate on short term goals.

 

 

[[os...]]

I have done lots of reading and know that some people have problems around the 2mg V mark. 

 

Hiya Birdy!  I wonder how reliable that rule-of-thumb troublesome dose of 2mg actually is.  If people metabolize diazepam at different rates (the half-life for some is 20 hours whereas the half-life for others is 200 hours) then they wouldn't all have problems at the same 2mg dose.  Of those who hit problems, some would hit them at 3mg and others at .5mg and not necessarily at 2mg.  Maybe 2mg is the median and gets the most hits but it surely can't be the only dose.

 

Hi Barban,  I read something on bluelight.ru that stuck in the back of my head. It was that drug companies always manufacture their pills so the minimum dose will also always get you hooked. 

 

Let's look at the smallest mgs. for drugs

 

Valium 2mg USA / 2.5mg Eu

Ativan .5mg

Klonopin .25mg

Xanax .25mg

and

Remeron 15mg  (that's why I only take 3.75mg as it's way under the addictive level and is more of a antihistamine verses a serotonin harvester)

 

But then again its hard to believe drug companies would do something this calculated and cruel,,,, or not?

 

I have noticed some "sticky patch" pattens at those minimum levels with other members but not always. This knowledge may cause more problems in it's self as OMGWTH points out.  But almost everyone hits a low level 'sticky patch' and I'd like to know the reason why before I get down there so I will not get ambushed.  Maybe the knowledge that a "sticky patch" is maybe coming makes it easier to deal with, that's the way I'd look at it.  Sticking my head in the sand has not worked out so well for me so far

 

When I eventually reached 3 mg, I actually felt my brain adjust to more clarity literally at that dose... at first it was a bit strange but it soon settled and I thought how it must be healing... it was actually 4 mg for me that was a real change, if I had to do this all over again, I would treat 5 mg and below carefully... I think doing a very slow and sensible taper, with holds from 5 mg down would likely set a smoother path for crossing 4 mg and 3 mg... as for 2 mg, some said it gets easier but equally some say differently, I think how we get there initially is often a major factor. It could simply be that the drug tries to hang on in the lower doses... who knows? It seems universal that everyone has to slow down a lot below a certain dose... I am prepared to hang out at 2 mg for quite awhile if need be when I get there... maybe use extremely tiny cuts to cross that line as a precaution.

 

 

[[Bi...]]

I am learning a lot about "How to taper CORRECTLY" from you guys.

Birdman, I am so happy to know you are not suffering.

It think you guys have figured out the secret to getting off Benzo's…Well, other than the obvious, which is don't start people on them to begin with, and if you are unfortunate enough to be on them for longer than 2 weeks, the answer to get off is to do a very slow taper.

 

I am so glad you guys are around to show the way.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

God Speed and Continued healing to all of you….Sometimes God's Speed is in slow-mo!

 

Much love,

Causing

 

Hi causing.  Yes sometimes healing at GOD SPEED is in slow motion so I guess all we can do is match our taper rate to match

 

Thinking about you always and wishing you speedy healing,

 

Much love

Bird

 

[[...]]

I have done lots of reading and know that some people have problems around the 2mg V mark. 

 

Hiya Birdy!  I wonder how reliable that rule-of-thumb troublesome dose of 2mg actually is.  If people metabolize diazepam at different rates (the half-life for some is 20 hours whereas the half-life for others is 200 hours) then they wouldn't all have problems at the same 2mg dose.  Of those who hit problems, some would hit them at 3mg and others at .5mg and not necessarily at 2mg.  Maybe 2mg is the median and gets the most hits but it surely can't be the only dose.

 

Even though the half life  of Valium may range from 20-200mg I suspect for the majority of people the half life clusters near the middle of the range with few people at the extremes. Actually, I'll bet the half life for most people is way closer to 20-36 hours than 200 hours as the much longer half lives  are due to various degrees of liver dysfunction and a much decreased metabolic capability in the very old. These folks will of course skew the range a lot towards the longer end  leaving a much tighter range for normal, otherwise healthy people.

 

Bart

[[Bi...]]

 

When I eventually reached 3 mg, I actually felt my brain adjust to more clarity literally at that dose... at first it was a bit strange but it soon settled and I thought how it must be healing... it was actually 4 mg for me that was a real change, if I had to do this all over again, I would treat 5 mg and below carefully... I think doing a very slow and sensible taper, with holds from 5 mg down would likely set a smoother path for crossing 4 mg and 3 mg... as for 2 mg, some said it gets easier but equally some say differently, I think how we get there initially is often a major factor. It could simply be that the drug tries to hang on in the lower doses... who knows? It seems universal that everyone has to slow down a lot below a certain dose... I am prepared to hang out at 2 mg for quite awhile if need be when I get there... maybe use extremely tiny cuts to cross that line as a precaution.

 

Yes I think you are very right about that Oscar.  The last time I got to 2 mg I was in acute hoping the jump would save me. Boy was I ever wrong

 

What is amusing looking back was how well 2mg held me together. Without it I was done for.  If I would had just held their for 6 months I am sure I'd be further ahead now.

 

But the next time I get down to 2mg I am going to make very sure I'm super-stable before going any further

 

[[Di...]]

I suppose everyone is going to be different when it comes to the level they find the "hardest" or the "easiest", if they experience it at all.

 

For me the worst time was the 1mg mark, but was that because of the valium or was it because I was stupidly experimenting with things like Seriphos and Vitamin C and not picking up on the signs that they had turned on me and were now adversely affecting me?

 

I'll never know, but that level totally sucked big time. I was circling the runway for 2 months before I made a break for it. Now I feel that things have actually gotten much easier, but maybe that's because I've also learned a lot lessons the hard way and I am finally acting on the word "patience" instead of just talking about it.

 

I took many, many months to go from 4 mg V equiv to 3 mg as I have said before Diaz Pam... I suspect it was from previous faster tapering... my brain just wanted to ease off I guess... I remember thinking I would never reach 3 mgs, but eventually it happened... it is amazing how time passes and we find a way... it's all about doing it in sync with the brain and it can get pretty slow... I forgot how many calendars I threw out... eventually, I gave up on dates and now I just concentrate on short term goals.

 

 

 

Yes, I've given up on calendars too. I've set and passed quite a few "I should be done by" dates, so now I just don't think about it. I guess I've probably got another 3-5 months to go, going on my current rate of taper, but I could also hit another wall soon and have to slow down even more. It is what it is.......

[[So...]]

Hey, for those making their own solution, what type of bottle is best? Glass or plastic?

 

I found some glass ones on Amazon, but the reviews for them being used for food wasn't great. They said that they had a terrible smell to them.

 

So, where do you get them?

 

Denise