SLOW TAPER SUPPORT THREAD - slow and steady is your pace

[[bo...]]

Haven't looked in for a few days - great thread with all my favourite BB people and some new favourites too. Haven't been here because haven't felt great - depression mostly and lethargy, which is different to a couple of weeks ago when the more anxiety-related stuff was front and centre (GI issues, early waking, headaches, irritable with a lump in the throat).

 

I've sat at 2mg for about 3 weeks now after two overly-speedy taper sequences: 10mg-1mg Ashton-style 1mg cut/week ended up very bad. Then waited at 2mg and spent a lot of time on here getting up to speed with titration using liquid valium. Made a start doing that when I felt reasonable, but after cutting 0.02mg V daily for 11 days things built up and I've come back to 2mg for a rest and to reconsider.

 

What I now know is that I must go super slow. I also don't want to start again until I'm sure I'm ready. I agree with the symptom-based taper philosophy. My various tapers to date have caused much misery for myself and my family. They really wear it when I'm non-functional. This morning I'm up and about after a couple of days of being a write-off. My wife is trying to catch up some sleep, exhausted after doing everything for 3 young kids as well as work as well as look after her husband. There's a note to me this morning saying she had a bit of a meltdown last night when the kids were hard work. I hate how much my problems with benzos have impacted our lives.

 

The Birdman chart makes sense to me, with the reductions slowed in the later stages.  I'm likely to restart titration at very conservative rate like 0.005mg daily, check that this works OK for several weeks and possibly up it to 0.01mg. That's a linear reduction for a while, which I'll need to review later. First goal is to find a rate of reduction that has "cope-able" sx to get me moving down to 1.5mg. One goal at a time eh - the even slower stuff for below 1mg is for me to file away for later!

[[Di...]]

For example, for valium, if you were going to cut and hold 0.5mg every 20 days, that would mean that it would work out to be 0.025mg every day (0.5mg ÷ 20 days = 0.025mg). Then the simplest way of doing a daily cut is to use a liquid titration. I prefer the 1:100ml ratio, so that would mean that the liquid amount you would cut every day would be 2.5ml (0.025mg x 100ml = 2.5ml).

 

OK, so my algebra brain says I would just divide the difference between the 1.85 and 1.757 (current dose with 5% cut new dose) over the 20 days and subtract that daily. So it would be (1.85-1.757)/20 = daily cut rate of .005. That over 20 days of me subtracting it brings me to 1.76 instead of 1.757 but close enough. But at lower doses though it seems to fall apart. I tested it at .487 down to .463 which gave me .001 as the cut and twenty days later I'm at .476 which is .007 ml higher. At .12 or 12ml it gives me a daily cut rate of .000. I guess 5% is too low, but that has been the magic number for me though it might have to go lower with time. I guess I'm going too slow for daily cutting down the line.

 

Do you think a person could increase their cut rate using daily cutting because it's a smoother transition? Like would I be able to move up to 6% or 7% ? Or if that is too high for me now as a cut and hold then it would be too high for me doing daily small cuts? I would love to be able to taper faster a little bit faster but I don't know if it would land me in a world of hurt which I'd like to avoid. But I think the daily taper might make it easier to cut a bit higher because it's such a gentle process as you go and isn't an all at once thing so I think it would allow the brain to adapt more smoothly. Have you found that you can cut higher than you could using the cut and hold method?

 

Here's another question you might be able to help me with - I'm in Lag right now. Last time I hit lag, I ended up holding for 81 days waiting to stabilize. Never happened. Symptoms got lighter but not like when I'm not in lag. So I decided to just cut after a month hold. I know that might not be the best idea but my experience previously taught me that waiting on lag is a waste of time and I think the long hold did more harm than good. But now I'm thinking that I could daily cut my way out of it because the slow cuts would allow me to get past it without the jump down to the next dose all at once. Feels like it could work because of it the nature of the daily taper. I might give it a try and see if it's a nice way to bypass this lag that doesn't respond to a hold. Thoughts?

 

 

Yes I think it is possible to increase your taper rate with a daily cut, but you always have to be mindful of how you body is reacting to these small cuts and be prepared to hold at the first sign of trouble.

 

I also don't think about percentages. My brain doesn't cope with that anyway, but after I started doing daily cuts I found that percentages didn't really mean much anyway. Perhaps percentages are a good way to start working out how much to cut each day, but once you've found the right amount, you really just need to concentrate on how you're feeling.

[[OM...]]

Glad you could join us Bolders.

 

Anoushka, here's the link to what's left on the trap site. http://www.thetrap.org.uk/

 

DPam - thanks so much. I just sent you another PM regarding what you said about finding what rate works for you. I'm a little confused about that right now so I did use percentages to start which has me at .005 ml cuts daily and I guess I can see how that goes, holding if things look questionable. The good thing is that doing daily tapers, you really can't get too far ahead of yourself if you hold when you notice any kind of WD. I think for me it will be a bit hard to tell because some of my symptoms are side effects. But I'll figure it out.

[[Di...]]

Hi Anoushka

 

I'm not familiar with your taper, but after reading OMG's reply to you, I think that could be what's going on. Perhaps the cuts you've made have really caught up with you and your body is now really struggling to cope.

 

How would you feel about doing an updose? Perhaps go back to the dose you were at when you last felt okay. Then if that works you could perhaps think about starting a daily taper from there.

[[Di...]]

Glad you could join us Bolders.

 

Anoushka, here's the link to what's left on the trap site. http://www.thetrap.org.uk/

 

DPam - thanks so much. I just sent you another PM regarding what you said about finding what rate works for you. I'm a little confused about that right now so I did use percentages to start which has me at .005 ml cuts daily and I guess I can see how that goes, holding if things look questionable. The good thing is that doing daily tapers, you really can't get too far ahead of yourself if you hold when you notice any kind of WD. I think for me it will be a bit hard to tell because some of my symptoms are side effects. But I'll figure it out.

 

Yes it can sometimes be difficult to work out what the early signs are, and then it can be even harder actually acting upon them. It took me a while to realise that afternoon headaches were my sign that I needed to slow down, because I would often blame something else for them. However, I now know what they mean, and I react to them immediately.

[[So...]]

Birdman,

 

Step off is my new favorite term for the end of a taper. I think that getting as low as you can - the equivalent of .1 or .2mg valium is probably the best way to go. I take K so getting that low at my taper rate is going to be a pain. I'll have to change my pill and ratio just to continue cutting that low, but it's worth doing it if possible I think

 

Yes it's possible.  I talked with an old BB'er a few months back and he would lick the edge of a xanax for the last few months of his taper and he said it actually helped while it sounds funny and utterly desperate. What this tells me however is to never underestimate the power of even a trace amount of benzo's at the end of a taper - I am going to cut to "fumes" like bart did.  When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening if it's done right. I am looking for a NON-EVENT when I am done, like stepping off an escalator, effortless

 

You are just so creative with your charts!! Very impressive!!

 

That is my chart, too!! Woo Hoo!!

 

Denise 

[[Bi...]]

The end of my taper was a non event  Maybe  the Xanax pill licker had the right idea. I have a very dilute suspension of Valium in Ora-Plus that is getting pretty old and I just dip the tip of my 1ml syringe in it without drawing any up and lick the outside of it every so often. Right now I'm doing it about once every 3 days. My actual taper ended a couple of months ago and I basically feel fine most of the time which is the same as I felt the last few months of my taper. Stepping off, jumping or whatever you want to call it certainly can be a non-event for most. I'll probably quit "dipping" when I just forget to do it. I completely disagree with Ashton when she says .5mg just keeps the dependency going. If you do the math, .5mg of Valium provides a lot of molecules for each GABA receptor our bodies contain.  Ashton did not publish evidence that she had significant experience with patients doing tapers that were much longer than her guidelines.  She was also generally against supplements as she thought they were ineffective. My personal experience was otherwise. It seems a lot of people develop a high degree of sensitivities to all kinds of things well into their tapers. I'll bet this is a related phenomena to the extreme sensitivity to our benzos at the taper's end and is probably why a lot of people experience a tough time at the end of and just after their tapers are completed.

 

Hey Bird

Nice graph

 

Bart

 

Thanks bart  :smitten:

[[Bi...]]

Birdman,

 

Step off is my new favorite term for the end of a taper. I think that getting as low as you can - the equivalent of .1 or .2mg valium is probably the best way to go. I take K so getting that low at my taper rate is going to be a pain. I'll have to change my pill and ratio just to continue cutting that low, but it's worth doing it if possible I think

 

Yes it's possible.  I talked with an old BB'er a few months back and he would lick the edge of a xanax for the last few months of his taper and he said it actually helped while it sounds funny and utterly desperate. What this tells me however is to never underestimate the power of even a trace amount of benzo's at the end of a taper - I am going to cut to "fumes" like bart did.  When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening if it's done right. I am looking for a NON-EVENT when I am done, like stepping off an escalator, effortless

Hi Bird!

      Could you elaborate on this statetment,"When you 'step off' you should not be able to feel anything different happening" ?

      NFM Curious me

 

High NFM,  I think OMGWTH and bart said about the same thing as I would have said.  I remember my jump & crash 10 months ago.  I jumped from .5mg V and all hell broke lose and ended up reinstating, man it shook me to my core!  Looking back I just should have stayed on .5mg V for 4 or 5 months and I probably would have been fine and further ahead then I am now. I learned that the last little bit is really critical especially on valium. Also in general I just tapered too fast thinking that the MAGIC was all in the JUMP,,,   wrong, wrong, wrong!  The magic is all in the slow taper and by the time you jump YOU should already be feeling good.  NEVER jump if your still symptomatic, never never!!!!!!!!

 

THE WAY YOU FEEL WHEN YOU JUMP WILL BE THE WAY YOU FEEL FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

An old BB'er told me that and I trust him completely.  So if you want to feel good at the time you jump you need to reflect carefully on the topic of how well your really feeling.  Sure we all heal but I am DEAD SET against revving up your CNS if not needed as it's so counter productive and cruel.

 

This is just how I feel now from my last experience which was a rotten c/t speed taper and crash

 

Bart and Diaz you should have stopped me :'( :'( :'(  ( I forgive you though )

 

NFM - Am glad you are doing well and your math is good     Some of us just need to go a little lower and slower for some reason I can't explain. Call me one of the unlucky one's and I'd believe you 100%

[[...]]

Just thought I'd put up a chart of my taper which Braban sent me. This represents my actual dosages and dates. During this time my symptoms decreased just a little bit and then mostly fizzled out the last few months. We had a discussion of this on another thread as I feel this approximates my healing rate and the decay curve pattern of the curve is commonly seen in biologic as well as other processes in nature. IMO, this is evidence that a biologic process went on during my taper which is healing. If my ability to lower my dose during the taper improved due to some non-biologic process such as some psychological or behavioral adaptation (counseling, etc.), I would expect the dose vs time curve to be less smooth and less likely to be a decay pattern type.

 

http://i.imgur.com/w7hqeAh.jpg

 

 

[[Bi...]]

Just thought I'd put up a chart of my taper which Braban sent me. This represents my actual dosages and dates. During this time my symptoms decreased just a little bit and then mostly fizzled out the last few months. We had a discussion of this on another thread as I feel this approximates my healing rate and the decay curve pattern of the curve is commonly seen in biologic as well as other processes in nature. IMO, this is evidence that a biologic process went on during my taper which is healing. If my ability to lower my dose during the taper improved due to some non-biologic process such as some psychological or behavioral adaptation (counseling, etc.), I would expect the dose vs time curve to be less smooth and less likely to be a decay pattern type.

 

http://i.imgur.com/w7hqeAh.jpg

 

Strongly agree!

[[mr...]]

Hi Bart,

Do u have a chart logging your symptoms?

 

 

[[bo...]]

So I've spent the morning (West Australian time) tracking around "Slow Taper Wisdom-land" and have made myself the following promises: [with a bit of rationale afterwards in brackets]:

 

1. I am committed to getting off Benzos. [They have a long-term negative effect, even at low dose, if I stay on them permanently]

2. I am committed to doing so while functional, coping with symptoms and keep my family front and centre. [This is possible, and no other pathway is worth it for me]

3. I can do this by tapering very cautiously, slowly, at a conservative rate keeping an eye out for increasing symptoms and acting early when I get them. [i have a natural healing rate that I cannot push past, and I need to respect it.]

4. I will stay put on my current dose for another month first. [it takes 3-ish weeks of the same dose for my V levels to reach a stable point, and a few more to let things settle. I've given my body an awful lot to cope with over the past 6 months and I need to be gentle.]

5. I will need to slow my taper rate as I get further down. The last 0.5mg goes on for a bit! [bart / Birdman's decay curve]

6. There is no target date to step (gently off). Instead there is a goal to head in the right direction and stay well. [Absolutely no point trying to calculate how many days this will take. Done that many times before, and it just tempts me to push reduction too hard again and again.]

7. Good things that always work: No alcohol, plenty of exercise and fresh air, minimal caffeine, good sleep patterns, good family times, not becoming obsessed with benzo-reduction as a major focus of my life, prayer and meditation!

[[So...]]

So I've spent the morning (West Australian time) tracking around "Slow Taper Wisdom-land" and have made myself the following promises: [with a bit of rationale afterwards in brackets]:

 

1. I am committed to getting off Benzos. [They have a long-term negative effect, even at low dose, if I stay on them permanently]

2. I am committed to doing so while functional, coping with symptoms and keep my family front and centre. [This is possible, and no other pathway is worth it for me]

3. I can do this by tapering very cautiously, slowly, at a conservative rate keeping an eye out for increasing symptoms and acting early when I get them. [i have a natural healing rate that I cannot push past, and I need to respect it.]

4. I will stay put on my current dose for another month first. [it takes 3-ish weeks of the same dose for my V levels to reach a stable point, and a few more to let things settle. I've given my body an awful lot to cope with over the past 6 months and I need to be gentle.]

5. I will need to slow my taper rate as I get further down. The last 0.5mg goes on for a bit! [bart / Birdman's decay curve]

6. There is no target date to step (gently off). Instead there is a goal to head in the right direction and stay well. [Absolutely no point trying to calculate how many days this will take. Done that many times before, and it just tempts me to push reduction too hard again and again.]

7. Good things that always work: No alcohol, plenty of exercise and fresh air, minimal caffeine, good sleep patterns, good family times, not becoming obsessed with benzo-reduction as a major focus of my life, prayer and meditation!

 

Great goals to live by in w/d!!

 

Denise 

[[Bi...]]

So I've spent the morning (West Australian time) tracking around "Slow Taper Wisdom-land" and have made myself the following promises: [with a bit of rationale afterwards in brackets]:

 

1. I am committed to getting off Benzos. [They have a long-term negative effect, even at low dose, if I stay on them permanently]

2. I am committed to doing so while functional, coping with symptoms and keep my family front and centre. [This is possible, and no other pathway is worth it for me]

3. I can do this by tapering very cautiously, slowly, at a conservative rate keeping an eye out for increasing symptoms and acting early when I get them. [i have a natural healing rate that I cannot push past, and I need to respect it.]

4. I will stay put on my current dose for another month first. [it takes 3-ish weeks of the same dose for my V levels to reach a stable point, and a few more to let things settle. I've given my body an awful lot to cope with over the past 6 months and I need to be gentle.]

5. I will need to slow my taper rate as I get further down. The last 0.5mg goes on for a bit! [bart / Birdman's decay curve]

6. There is no target date to step (gently off). Instead there is a goal to head in the right direction and stay well. [Absolutely no point trying to calculate how many days this will take. Done that many times before, and it just tempts me to push reduction too hard again and again.]

7. Good things that always work: No alcohol, plenty of exercise and fresh air, minimal caffeine, good sleep patterns, good family times, not becoming obsessed with benzo-reduction as a major focus of my life, prayer and meditation!

 

And never forget it 

[[...]]

So I've spent the morning (West Australian time) tracking around "Slow Taper Wisdom-land" and have made myself the following promises: [with a bit of rationale afterwards in brackets]:

 

1. I am committed to getting off Benzos. [They have a long-term negative effect, even at low dose, if I stay on them permanently]

2. I am committed to doing so while functional, coping with symptoms and keep my family front and centre. [This is possible, and no other pathway is worth it for me]

3. I can do this by tapering very cautiously, slowly, at a conservative rate keeping an eye out for increasing symptoms and acting early when I get them. [i have a natural healing rate that I cannot push past, and I need to respect it.]

4. I will stay put on my current dose for another month first. [it takes 3-ish weeks of the same dose for my V levels to reach a stable point, and a few more to let things settle. I've given my body an awful lot to cope with over the past 6 months and I need to be gentle.]

5. I will need to slow my taper rate as I get further down. The last 0.5mg goes on for a bit! [bart / Birdman's decay curve]

6. There is no target date to step (gently off). Instead there is a goal to head in the right direction and stay well. [Absolutely no point trying to calculate how many days this will take. Done that many times before, and it just tempts me to push reduction too hard again and again.]

7. Good things that always work: No alcohol, plenty of exercise and fresh air, minimal caffeine, good sleep patterns, good family times, not becoming obsessed with benzo-reduction as a major focus of my life, prayer and meditation!

 

You will do well, grasshopper

[[OM...]]

bolders, sounds like you have a great plan for dealing with your taper! I am sure you will do quite well!  :smitten:

 

It's nice to be in a thread where everyone feel like going at a taper rate in accordance with how your body heals works well and is a good sound plan. Just think if more people came to understand this how much suffering would be eliminated? There's just too much needless suffering during benzo tapers. It's really sad when you think about it.

[[...]]

bart,

 

Do you think that a daily taper could allow me to taper a bit quicker than the cut and hold method?

 

 

NFM, as long as you feel well at the end of your taper, then your way of doing it worked well for you. Everyone has there own way that works for them and I think that knowing that is what helps us immensely throughout our taper. It depends on the person. It is individual to each. I think for those that have a hard time at lower doses or had to taper slower than average, especially at the end, that is where going to a lower dose has it's merits. There are those who don't have any issue jumping at .5mg. It really depends on the person and what they feel safest doing. Usually they have a sense of things as they get toward the end or if they have had issues with their taper. It's all very individual in the end. This thread aims to support people doing whatever method works for them and helping those who seek it find how to taper with minimal WD if they need that help.

 

Sounds like you are doing well which is really all that matters in the end.

 

Hi OMGWTH

I don't know the answer to your question. There may be little difference between the two methods and it is just personal preference. My guess is that a daily small cut maybe could go a little faster than the  cut and hold every week or two method.  This is because with the larger cut done with the cut and hold method there will be more of an initial shock to the CNS from a greater increase in unopposed glutamate activity which is neurotoxic. This could delay the healing process. OTOH, after the initial cut, a hold of 1-2 weeks is done and more healing could be accomplished nearer the end of the hold than would be done with a continuous daily small cut. My best guess is that both methods yield similar results and if there is any difference it would be in the favor of a daily small cut. In my experience I did have much fewer symptoms overall with a daily microtaper than when I was doing cut and hold.

Bart

 

 

 

[[...]]

Hi Bart,

Congratulations .. Such a wonderful accomplishment

 

Can you please take a look at my situation on this thread, and give your thoughts?

I will be most grateful ..

 

Thank you Bart, and again, you are very courageous

Wishing you continuous wellness .

Anu

 

Hi Anu

How much were the 2 cuts you made? The best way to do a minimally symptomatic taper is to first become minimally symptomatic if at all possible. This is done any way you can. Maybe it will take a long hold, updosing, tapering up, switching benzos or who knows what. If you can't reduce symptoms, just be sure and get to a place where symptoms are not getting worse. With a nice gentle taper you can make corrections when your symptoms tick up and I suspect your symptoms will begin to fade as you go along. Mine did. I don't know what effects stopping the A/D will have. Re-emergence of previous psychological issues is always a possibility and I would think that some sort of therapy directed at them would be helpful during your taper.

[[...]]

Hi Bart,

Do u have a chart logging your symptoms?

 

Sorry. I only have a logbook where I tracked my symptoms on a simple 1-10 scale. If I only had mild tinnitus I was mostly not aware of I called that day a 1 and entered it in my logbook before bedtime. A day with some T and some D/R or D/P off and on with stress was a 2. A 3 was when I had some symptoms for at least a few hours, etc. After a little while doing MT I was typically at a 2 or 3 with occasionally 4's. Nearer the end I was most commonly at a 2 with occasional 1's and 3's. So overall, my symptoms just got a little better during the taper, but then I started from a fairly low level of symptoms. For the majority of the time during each day after switching to MT I was not aware of any symptoms. For the last few months I've felt well unless I do something in particular that flares up symptoms. I've flared them up with msg, caffeine, alcohol, work stress, over exercising, poor sleep, too much sugar and overeating. My symptoms, while usually absent, are still close to the "surface" and come to say hi with even mild provocation. I'm talking about only fairly mild levels of indiscretions here.

 

Bart

[[OM...]]

bart, it's great to have you here sharing your experience as you tapered. It's helpful to those of us that want to model your journey and be mildly to almost not at all symptomatic. Thank you for taking the time to share here. I'm very appreciative of this. Thanks.

[[...]]

Thanks OM

It's nice to have a place to post. I don't pay much attention to all the complaint threads anymore. I really think most people who get in trouble do so by tapering too fast or getting off benzos long before they should and are suffering from the effects of glutamate excitotoxicity. There is little they can do to ameliorate symptoms. Maybe some supplements and exercise, but it's mostly just a long ugly wait for healing to come. I also suspect that some of the complaints are actually from the underlying psychological pathologies of some posters. After all, benzos usually get prescribed for a reason, and of all the BB members it is reasonable to assume a higher percentage of us will have other psych issues besides benzo related than the general population. For this reason, I also suspect that while there is a great deal of variation among people trying to get off benzos, there is less true variation than one might think after perusing these boards. IMO, with a nice long symptom based taper most of us can look forward to steadily, but slowly improving symptoms and be pretty closed to healed when we finally jump, slither, fade or whatever off (assuming you're not a nut; but than again, maybe we all are).

 

Bart the Worthless Shrink

[[bo...]]

bart, it's great to have you here sharing your experience as you tapered. It's helpful to those of us that want to model your journey and be mildly to almost not at all symptomatic. Thank you for taking the time to share here. I'm very appreciative of this. Thanks.

 

Make that two of us, Bart-the-very-helpful. I hope that after my sucessful taper, many moons from now, I'll hand around here offering solice, encouragement and wisdom to others on the path. What I've learned on here just today in this thread has been more helpful than years of various types of professional advice. I don't doubt the collective wisdom of this thread - it matches my experience and those of the rest of us posting here, it's sensible and well considered, patient and totally realistic. Nice job starting it as a topic OMGWTH.

 

I find I lose track of the various threads on this forum, and also can't always retain who has been posting good stuff. So today I started a "book of BB wisdom" for myself, where I cut and paste in stuff I don't want to forget. So far there's a large dose of Bart, some gold from Birdman as I looked back through his extensive history, and some solid Diaz-Pam advice.

[[os...]]

 

What a great thread, I can't believe I have missed this before... count me in !!!

 

I have been tapering 29 months and I am improving in many ways but at the same time this is getting harder at the lower doses to maintain any sort of wellness.

 

I am at almost 2.9 mg Valium equivalent.

 

I had bad head pressure the past couple of days, I have tightness in my neck and shoulders, I have not had many aches or pains (mostly mental stuff in my taper) but yep, muscle tighness in my upper back, shoulder area caused bad tension headache... the cut is the culprit as always.

 

I am on day 10 of a hold and feeling pretty down today as although I agree that a slow taper is better, it still does not take away the fact that this can take YEARS to recover from... after 22 years on the drug, I can't see this ending for me any time soon.

 

I am tapering so slowly it is not even funny... so when I get symptomatic, I get pretty down about it and I often wonder if this is worth it...

 

That said, I am where I am and just hoping to stabilize now, I generally use three week holds now.

 

I may post here quite often and I look forward to getting to know fellow slow taperers.

 

Hugs to everyone on this painfully long journey.

 

(PS: I will add a signature later today to my profile so it shows in my posts)

 

 

[[OM...]]

Hi oscar,

 

The thread is only a few days old, so it's easy to miss. Welcome!

 

What benzo are you on? 

[[os...]]

 

My symptoms, while usually absent, are still close to the "surface" and come to say hi with even mild provocation. I'm talking about only fairly mild levels of indiscretions here.

 

Bart

 

Bart,

 

So, if I understand your post correctly, you are literally "dipping" now and not pulling... and dipping every few days... yet you say that your symptoms are still close to the surface?

 

I get the impression from this that a slow taper, whilst most certainly greatly reduces withdrawals, does not always work...

 

I am all for a symptom based taper as I have been tapering that way for a very long time now but I must admit, seeing anyone below .25 mg Valium and suffering really scares me... and anything below .02 mg, to my mind, says that whatever happens after the "jump" is unavoidable.

 

We can all bang on about being symptom free at almost zero but in all honesty, I think this is unrealistic in my opinion... there is no real evidence to say that we can "step off" these drugs and feel fine... I think, in most cases, there is some degree of withdrawal to go through...

 

It seems to me that if one is not symptom free from dipping a syringe in a dilute of Valium every 3 days, then it is unlikely to happen until off... with all due respect Bart, you have been clinging onto "fumes" for months now... this makes me feel that a step off is something we all just hope for but there is clearly a difference between being on an absolute crumb of this stuff and being off completely.

 

A member here, mtmimi tapered really slow and yet was hit at .5 mg V but she managed to get stable by a month holding and slowing down her rate, by .4 mg she was feeling pretty much there BUT she still had no idea what was to come and despite the fact she stepped off, it still took her an additional 8 months to fully recover.

 

Perseus was going VERY slowly here and yet she has mysteriously vanished off the face of the Earth, she has not even logged on in many months, let alone posted... no goodbye, no warning and it worries me that despite tapering so very slowly, that there can come a point, at any low dose, that things just kick off anyway... the way I see it is that if she were still well, she would have logged on by now... another member that disappeared at .02 was JOHAN05... he was doing pretty well and posted that he was about to jump but changed his mind and decided to ride it down to zero... but again, he completely vanished also... not a word of reaching zero.

 

I often wonder if we get hit no matter how low we get, as in all honesty, if we are not feeling mostly symptom free by less than .02 mg it seems to me that it ain't gonna happen until OFF the drug completely.

 

MY main worries here are if this taper of mine will turn to s**t no matter how slow I go... I already struggle as it is... it is a very long and often miserable journey but I remind myself it is better than speeding this up... HOWEVER, it really worries me that so much time and effort can go into a slow taper with no guarantee of feeling well once off... it seems to me that if we healed sufficiently as a result of getting lower, you would already be off by now Bart.

 

There comes a time when this can't go on... at some point that final break has to be made and I am sorry, but dipping into fumes may be a very good way to end a taper and I applaud you for your patience but I do not visit here that often and yet month after month I log in here and you are still on the fumes? Dude, if you are going to get hit once off, it is inevitable now... you have done all you can do... even I would draw the line at where you are... and in all honesty, it kind of makes me feel that we are not actually over this by ANY low dose... the only way we truly recover is by being OFF the drug.

 

I could not hang onto fumes for months... there would come a point in this where I would be utterly sick of trying to avoid the inevitable discomfort of stopping although chances are, anything you do feel will be very short lived... I am not actually convinced it is possible to step off... as quite simply, the cessation of the drug 100% is still a different phase altogether... much like cigarettes, you could be down to one puff per day but that is still keeping the dependency alive... at some point that cycle must be broken... withdrawal is withdrawal, if anyone steps off symptom free completely, I have yet to hear about it... I do not see anyone posting aggressively saying that they did a super slow taper and it ended without any issue at all... so, whilst I hate to be a downer, I think that slow is the way to go, absolutely I think that... BUT I also think there comes a point where we have to go through the post taper phase and that may or may not be an easy time... but like I say, chances are if there is any discomfort it will be short lived Bart... it is your taper but from where I am sitting, I think you have done all you can possibly do.

 

Holding onto fumes may help for a month or two and I think that is really smart... but to carry on holding at that amount, to me anyway, is a little excessive... but that is just my opinion... but in all honesty, that is such an incredulously small amount that one has to really question hanging on at that stage for so long... and it seems to prove, to me anyway, that Ashton is right, we cannot heal until we are off, that much seems to me to be quite obvious...

 

My biggest fear is tapering so low and still ending up in a bad place for a prolonged period of time... which would render this whole slow taper as pretty worthless... I am sorry to be negative but when people reinstate from jumping at 1 mg or even .5 mg... it makes me wonder just how much more effective it is to taper lower and surely symptoms should be almost gone by .01 mg but in all honesty, it looks to me as if we ALL have to navigate post taper regardless of where we jump from... or step off from... it seems to me that post taper recovery takes at least a couple of months but more often than not, up to 8 months, even after an extremely slow taper.