Have you changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering?

[[Ho...]]

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[[jo...]]

I used a cut and hold method with an Ativan to Valium crossover and stayed with it down to below 2mg where I hit a pretty nasty wall. I did an updose and switched to daily small cuts. My symptoms seem to be less with this method but I go really slow. I'm able to work, exercise and lead a fairly normal life doing it this way. I feel I would have been miserable and nonfunctional had I continued cutting at .5-1mg of Valium every 1-2 weeks. I don't know how long this condition would have lasted. Now, when a wave hits I just hold and/or do a one time updose which usually helps. I have gotten a little relief of symptoms from supplements, exercise, and meditation. There is no scientific data comparing the various methods of tapering, just anecdotal experiences.

Hi Bart.

 

What does a one-time updose mean, as opposed to an updose?

 

Thanks

 

What do you mean by a one

[[In...]]

Journey,

 

I just wanted to remark that I did find your statement about wanting to "share your joy" about fnding a method that helped you so much to be not only uplifting, but a very good reason to want to talk about what you had discovered for yourself.

 

And there's the rub to me, and I'm putting all the sciencey stuff aside also. This shouldn't just be about Valium either, IMO, but it's gone there almost exclusively. Ashton discussed other drugs, but of course it was that cross only to V that was her answer, I believe. That and the dry cut method.

 

I've given it a good go on that one, and it's hard and rough to literally cut pills up into small and inaccurate pieces. I do find it hard to believe that this works for so many WELL, with that being the operative word. Yeah, one can cut them and taper them that way, but I sure read about a lot of suffering doing that. And then the scale method which I guess does work, but I've read right here on BB that one could be getting filler in some of the crushed up pills that are being weighed out and taken.

 

And I do not thinkni have ever read here on this forum that the scale method is "not endorsed" by BB. Why? Did Ashton have that in her protocol? I truly do not know as I haven't read the entire thing. So if she never mentioned it ( did she?), it also should not be "endorsed IMO.

 

But in reality, using a scale is another, more up to date way of getting one measurements on any particular benzo more accurately cut ( if one discounts the filler aspect), and thus going very low on the benzo. So if BB is fine with that, what's the big problem with the daily cut, cut size by titration and whatever these work?

 

Oh, there nothing  unusual about this by any standard, IMO. I believe we'll see more and more of this. And that's because, I think, it's really rather smart of folks to discover what works for them, and word just gets around. It's hard to stop these lasting "trends" if you will excuse the term when they morph from trend to working for more than a few, to working for many. Then they also become not just trends, but standards that deserve consideration and hardly some type of negative disapproval.

 

Intend

 

So

[[In...]]

Sorry for typos here. I'm on my iPad, and they are notvas easy to correct as by computer. But I believe sense is made here.

 

Intend

[[zo...]]

[0024] Based on reports from actual patient cases, there is a very narrow dosage interval that is acceptable and which causes no symptom escalation. The treating physician can use a minimum number as a starting reduction, and it should prevent symptom escalation. That number may be below the standard reduction of 0.05 mg and a reduction of 0.01 mg Diazepam or equivalent may be more appropriate. Degree of symptoms indicates time to use the smaller numbers. By making the dosage cut at regular intervals (e.g., every day), and by doing this for a predetermined time (e.g., two weeks), the dosage cut can be monitored at maintained at acceptable levels. Then, that dosage cut can be increased by another known amount, wait for the predetermined time (e.g., three days to two weeks the patient's determined Benzo symptom lag period), and if all is well with the patient, another increase can be employed. When an increased cut causes a rise in symptoms, a previous acceptable dosage cut can be used again.

 

Colin thank you for some very interesting and very useful observations about Jana Hill's method.  I haven't seen that patent application before and I have to confess that personally I find the language it uses is a bit convoluted!

 

One thing I would mention is that section [0024] the benzomicrotaper method does not appear to suggest the method consists of making only daily cuts of .005mg or .01mg.

 

My reading of that section (see the bold text above) is that the size of the daily cuts are increased up to the point at which the user feels it is no longer tolerable and then the user goes back to the previous tolerable size of daily cut. 

 

It means the daily cuts could be a lot more than .005mg.  For example, I am taking approx 6mg diazepam and making daily cuts of .03mg.  I think I can handle larger cuts than that so I may try .04mg cuts and see how that goes.  If that works out then I may try .05mg daily cuts and so on until I find the largest daily cut I can handle.  Isn't this what section [0024] is suggesting?

 

-Zoner

[[Co...]]

Hi Zoner,

 

I too find the patent application confusing - I don't believe this is because I am unused to or unskilled in patents. I have read other low tech patents, and they were more understandable.

 

I read the patent similarly to you - yes, other withdrawal rates are allowable by the method too. However, tapers rates of 0.01mg per day for Valium (and slower for doses of less than 5mg) are suggested. In my very strong opinion, that's unreasonable - I think the majority of people would agree with me. I extrapolated some figures, based upon the reasonable assumption that the suggested slower rate for doses under 5mg might be around 0.005mg per day, and arrived at seven year taper plan for 20mg Valium. I'm sorry, that's plain ridiculous.

 

I also took issue with the suggestion that grapefruit juice might be employed as dosing error correction device - this advise is dangerous.

 

I wish to be clear. Although I do not understand why Hill would attempt to patent her method, and I feel the patent application is very flawed, I have no reason to suppose that her intentions are anything but well intended. I just think, for the reasons I've outlines, that she is very wrong.

[[aw...]]

I know that I have been able to taper at a much faster rate by daily cutting than I could ever hope to achieve by cut and hold.

 

Hello Journey. Unfortunately I simply don't have the stamina to comment on the various important points being made on this thread but I can say I too have found using a daily taper lets me reduce more quickly than by making discrete cuts.

 

Daily tapering is more work and one needs to have a clear head in order to avoid errors. I often get fuzzy headed, so I always have someone with me to check I'm preparing each day's dose correctly.  They're almost worn out by the effort!

 

-Zoner

Z-person: It took me a week or so to get used to it, but I now find daily cuts to be almost a no-brainer, which is very convenient for people like me.  Definitely not a lot of work, and once it becomes a habit, not a lot of attention either.

 

Here's what I do every day: I get up, take 3 0.5 mg Ativan tablets (starting dose was 4), and drink some solution that I prepared the night before to make up for all the Ativan in the missing tab minus today's cut. I dose just like that twice more during the day, 8 hours apart. 3 tablets and a sip of 'juice' 3X a day. When I take my last dose, I make up the solution for the next day, which will have slightly less Ativan.

 

Aweigh

[[...]]

Hey Aweigh,

 

Good to see you in action.

 

You should patent your method and call it 'Aweigh's slurp all day long method' (patent pending). I'm calling mine 'Bart's try a lot of supplements and complain a lot method' (patent pending).

 

Bart

 

[[aw...]]

Hey Aweigh,

 

Good to see you in action.

 

You should patent your method and call it 'Aweigh's slurp all day long method' (patent pending). I'm calling mine 'Bart's try a lot of supplements and complain a lot method' (patent pending).

 

Bart

 

Thanks, Bart. It's formal title is the Damp SloTaper Procedure (patently straining credulity). Yeah, I took a break from posting; for me, it's a good thing to not boot up for a day or two.

 

Do you get bilateral shoulder pain as a w/d sx? If so, what tx?

 

Aweigh

[[...]]

No shoulder pain. I've taken a little aspirin or ibuprofen for various things during my taper. No adverse issues and I thought they helped some.

[[aw...]]

No shoulder pain. I've taken a little aspirin or ibuprofen for various things during my taper. No adverse issues and I thought they helped some.

Thanks. Those works for me, too, though ALA is the best OTC med I've found. So how about a steroid shot if the pain gets a lot worse? Are they all equally bad for sx, or some less worse than others? 

 

Aweigh

[[Te...]]

[0024] Based on reports from actual patient cases, there is a very narrow dosage interval that is acceptable and which causes no symptom escalation. The treating physician can use a minimum number as a starting reduction, and it should prevent symptom escalation. That number may be below the standard reduction of 0.05 mg and a reduction of 0.01 mg Diazepam or equivalent may be more appropriate. Degree of symptoms indicates time to use the smaller numbers. By making the dosage cut at regular intervals (e.g., every day), and by doing this for a predetermined time (e.g., two weeks), the dosage cut can be monitored at maintained at acceptable levels. Then, that dosage cut can be increased by another known amount, wait for the predetermined time (e.g., three days to two weeks the patient's determined Benzo symptom lag period), and if all is well with the patient, another increase can be employed. When an increased cut causes a rise in symptoms, a previous acceptable dosage cut can be used again.

 

Colin thank you for some very interesting and very useful observations about Jana Hill's method.  I haven't seen that patent application before and I have to confess that personally I find the language it uses is a bit convoluted!

 

One thing I would mention is that section [0024] the benzomicrotaper method does not appear to suggest the method consists of making only daily cuts of .005mg or .01mg.

 

My reading of that section (see the bold text above) is that the size of the daily cuts are increased up to the point at which the user feels it is no longer tolerable and then the user goes back to the previous tolerable size of daily cut. 

 

It means the daily cuts could be a lot more than .005mg.  For example, I am taking approx 6mg diazepam and making daily cuts of .03mg.  I think I can handle larger cuts than that so I may try .04mg cuts and see how that goes.  If that works out then I may try .05mg daily cuts and so on until I find the largest daily cut I can handle.  Isn't this what section [0024] is suggesting?

 

-Zoner

 

Hi Zoner,

 

I'll chime in here on this point.  I have very successfully followed "Hill's Method" for the past 9 months and will soon complete my taper.  The "Hill Method" is not a one size fits all.  She helps the person find a starting point and then offers suggestions & guidance when sx's present.  I had many successful days cutting at a rate of 0.1 and began reducing that rate whenever sx's presented.  The reduction rate was up to me based on what I could tolerate.  And, yes....now at the end of my taper I'm down to .005.  For me, the "Hill Method" has been much faster than the cut & hold and returned my life to normal functioning.  I have not missed a day of work since beginning the "Hill Method".  I couldn't say that when I was following Ashton.   

 

Taz

[Guest [...]]

Does anyone know what Jana Hill's qualifications are and what specific studies she has undertaken? I guess I could look myself, but I thought someone could direct me to a site.

 

Thanks.

 

[[...]]

Aweigh

 

I've seen several reports of problems with steroids during a benzo taper. You've probably seen them too. My guess is any of the corticosteroids could flare up symptoms.

 

Bart

[[In...]]

Gee whiz,

 

I'm wondering what qualifications anyone on this site has including owners, administrators, moderators, and members other than having used benzos.

 

Perhaps that could be disclosed so others might be ok with "methods" that come along that folks are following based on their personal experience, and then others will feel assured that they're talking to a "qualified" person.

 

I surely wouldn't try a method that didn't work very well, no matter what "qualifications" someone had who was "recommending it. I thought that so many here have found their own doctors to be educated, but rather unqualified to deal with the benzo issue.

 

I'm just concluding that BB is kind of out to disparage other methods than "official Ashton methods" and that's just about it. Why else go on about this?

 

Well, that certainly can be done. People don't require the "official imprimatur" of any group to use methods that work for them. So approve, disapprove. This is all going to go on no matter what, IMO.

 

And it should, I believe, if it works for people. Which apparently it does.

 

Intend

[Guest [...]]

I'm wondering what qualifications anyone on this site has

 

I always assume 'none' unless I find out differently. That's why I don't ask or give advice. If someone sets themselves up as an authority on anything, surely they must have something to back this up? Apart from anecdotal evidence. 'Supporting' is different from 'advising' and I thought this was supposed to be a support forum.

 

I'm not sure why this is such a big deal.

[[In...]]

It's not a big deal. You asked what qualifications a person had and what specifics studies they have undertaken.

 

I'm saying no one here really knows anyone else's qualifications, or specific studies they have undertaken in theory of this sites guidelines.

 

So if we're going to start asking it of one person, I'm just saying that perhaps all folks should disclose. There's a lot of "in my own experience advising" that goes on here.

 

Intend

[[Wi...]]

Throughout my taper, I have consistenly found that if I cut more than 3.5/4 % per week (=7-8% every two weeks) of my previous dose I run into problems.  It has happened throughout my entire taper and sadly for me, is holding true even at this dose of just under 2 mg.  If this isn't Ashton's suggested protocol which apparently it's not, who's is it? 

[[aw...]]

Xana--maybe it's such a big deal because there are a lot of pretty sick people on this site who don't know much about what's happening to them and feel like knowlege would be power and give them some control over a process that's scary and crazy and their doctor ain't much help. And then there are a much smaller # of people (like me) here who have some knowlege, or pretensions to knowlege, and usually arn't shy about "sharing". It's a set up made for charlatans. There are a few people giving advice on this site who do not understand basic biology, let alone pharmacology. Maybe that's why the admins are so uptight about prescriptive writing. Often, it's dead wrong. So, it's important to have some idea whether that 'expert' really is.

 

Intend--seems to me like most people do what I do. Nose around and try to find someone who knows more than I do about benzos, whose statements are self-consistent, and who seems compassionate and humble. Then I ask them. That does not describe many doctors I have met. I don't know what the problem is with BMT, but it's not hard to see that some folks over here don't like some folks over there, and it's gone on long enough to be a feud. I'd go so far as to say the situation is mutual. I speak from personal experience. And that is too GD bad, cause we really are in the same stinky old, leaky boat. And no one but us can help us, which we are doing in spite of it all.

 

Bart--thanks. I don't need anything yet, so I guess I don't really need to worry about it. Too bad. 

 

Aweigh

[Guest [...]]

Intend:So if we're going to start asking it of one person, I'm just saying that perhaps all folks should disclose. There's a lot of "in my own experience advising" that goes on here.

 

I'm not asking it of anyone on this forum. Jana Hill is not a a member of Benzobuddies as far as I know. She is seeking a patent for a tapering method she has developed, or so she believes. I was specifically asking if anyone knew her qualifications and expertise.

 

Here's my query:

 

Does anyone know what Jana Hill's qualifications are and what specific studies she has undertaken?

 

I don't think I can be any more specific than that.

 

aweigh: I don't think you got my drift here. I was meaning, what is the big deal about my asking about Jana Hill's expertise?

 

There are a fair # of people giving advice on this site who do not understand basic biology, let alone pharmacology. Maybe that's why the admins are so uptight about prescriptive writing. Often, it's dead wrong. It's important to have some idea whether that 'expert' really is.

 

I couldn't agree more. We are on the same page! There's no disagreement! 

[[In...]]

Xana,

 

I think you were very specific. Im asking that others here also disclose their special knowledge, and what classes or studies they have undertaken to be able to be so certain that Ashton's methods will work for them, while at the same time saying that someone else's method just wont or cant or appears suspect or whatever.

 

And I dont know that all folks who are calling their taper a MT are actually following that particular method either.  And I do not know if one has to be a member of BB if their "methods' are going to be the main subject of such scrutiny.

 

I dont think I can be any more specific myself.

 

Intend

[[Ho...]]

Intend:So if we're going to start asking it of one person, I'm just saying that perhaps all folks should disclose. There's a lot of "in my own experience advising" that goes on here.

 

I'm not asking it of anyone on this forum. Jana Hill is not a a member of Benzobuddies as far as I know. She is seeking a patent for a tapering method she has developed, or so she believes. I was specifically asking if anyone knew her qualifications and expertise.

 

Here's my query:

 

Does anyone know what Jana Hill's qualifications are and what specific studies she has undertaken?

 

I don't think I can be any more specific than that.

 

I think it's a fair question. No one here at BB has "invented" a method of tapering. If someone put their name of a particular feature (or "product", for lack of a better word)..I'd certainly want to understand their background.

 

We are very upfront here at BB that we are a peer to peer support forum. No one is an expert. No one has qualification. No one has "invented" any taper methods. We use Ashton's as a basic guideline because it's a sensible jumping off point. Ashton is the expert. She does has the qualifications.

 

Colin is certainly entitled to post his opinions about Jana's taper method. Because he has a problems with it doesn't mean he's out to disparage other methods. You don't think putting a plan together for someone to taper for 6, 7 or 8 years is a little beyond what's necessary?

 

 

[[In...]]

WWWi,

 

If im understanding you correctly, you saying that you have followed the Ashton protocol pretty much all the way, and are having some difficulty.

 

If thats what you are saying, well then some part of the protocol appears to be problematic for you, IMO.

 

Intend

[Guest [...]]

And I do not know if one has to be a member of BB if their "methods' are going to be the main subject of such scrutiny.

 

Either I am not being clear or you are not comprehending very well today, Intend (and I'm not being rude.)

 

You were saying that if we suggest one person to disclose their credentials for giving advice, we should ask everyone. I said that I am not expecting members of BB to disclose anything. I was merely wondering what the expertise of Jana Hill is, as she is the one who is apparently feeling like an 'expert' as she is seeking a patent for her method. I pointed out that I was interested in HER qualifications and that she is NOT a member of BB.

 

Oh, I see Hope has come in here. Good. She might make herself clearer than I am managing to do. 

[[aw...]]

Words are weapons, too, people. Is it [glow=red,2,300]that[/glow] important? I propose a truce. Now.

 

Aweigh