Have you changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering?

[[In...]]

That was not a rhetorical question. An answer would be appreciated.

 

Intend

[[Co...]]

I made clear in my response that I was aware that BB supports titration but not "micro titration."

 

Nope. You stated:

 

I'm just concluding that BB is kind of out to disparage other methods than "official Ashton methods" and that's just about it.

 

Since the Ashton method is purely about switching to Valium, and pill-slitting there after (not titration; not sticking with your original benzodiazepine), and since we have always supported titration and direct tapers (from the original benzodiazepine), clearly we are open to all reasonable taper methods, not just Ashton's protocols. Perhaps you misunderstand Ashton? I'm going by what you wrote, which seems pretty clear: you feel that we support Ashton's method and no other. Patently untrue; you only need to look at the forum board descriptions and whole sections of our webpages.

 

And then I addressed the aspects of the patent. These are 2 separate issues w/o doubt, and IMO, you have been the one to "conflate" the two issues.

 

I raised two main issues: the unreasonable taper rate suggested; and the use of grapefruit juice. In what way have I conflated these two topics? Just because I raise two issues with the patent, this does not mean they are 'conflated' by me. Perhaps you misunderstand the word 'conflate'? If you mean something else, be specific.

 

From there you go on to attempt to tear apart the patent and the process. Well, what difference does this make anyway?

 

What? I cannot express a view about the patent process? My comments are hardly novel or outlandish. It is incredibly difficult to defend patents. It can take decades for an individual or small company to win their legal battles, and most cannot afford to do this, irrespective of the legitimacy of their claim. Robert Kearns

 

The patent was applied for and granted according to US patent codes and requirements. This may upset you, but it happened. That's just a simple fact.

 

I am not remotely upset. You seem to misunderstand what it means when a patent application is accepted.  For the reasons I have already outlined, I believe the patent to be flawed and undefendable. Acceptance of a patent application does not equate to the application being valid. Acceptance of an application by the patent office does not imply this. Most patents would fail if investigated further (most are not exploited or defended against when challenged).

 

And oh yes, I do understand very well the language that you quoted as being imprecise. IMO, there is no reason for you to attempt to "insult" anyone's intelligence or ability to understand something that is written in clear language. I do not find this imprecise as you apparently do. And that could be because I am more familiar with the "method" than you are as I have looked into it independent of the patent application completely.

 

It makes no difference if you are more familiar with the method: I refer to what is written in the application. If part of the method does not appear in the application, it is not protected. If what is written in patent is imprecise, it is likely to be undefendable. I pointed out a section that made no sense. You have chosen to not clarify its meaning, even though claim to understand. Oh well.

 

I do not think you are the ultimate authority of tapering methods nor of language interpretations nor of US patent applicability. And I think that folks who would think that such is true are "patently" incorrect. I think you have for some reason overreacted to the granting of this patent.

 

I never said I was. I expressed my opinions and my reasons for those opinions. But I suspect (for obvious and understandable reasons) I have given taper methods a great deal more thought than most people around here. Yet again: how are suggestions of seven, eight or even longer tapers defendable? How is the (dangerous) suggestion of using grapefruit juice (by a non-doctor, I might add) in any way reasonable?

 

As I say, it's happened as per US laws, so I'd just say endorse what methods you do and let others try what they want or will. No need as I see it to get worked up and insinuate that others aren't smart enough or whatever to read and understand what they are reading. I don't believe this "train" will be stopped as I've  said before. "Things" upset us and get under our skin to be colloquial about it, but I don't like being essentially informed that I'm not able to get what I'm reading. I do get it as I said.

 

I don't care that it has been patented. That is not the point. The issues at hand is the method described within the patent application. Problems with the patenting system are a side issue, of some interest, but were not point of my original comments.

 

You have only to read our webpages and the forum board titles to understand that BB supports any reasonable method of withdrawal. We also support those that have followed 'unreasonable' methods of withdrawal (such as 'cold turkey'). However, we do not allow the 'promotion' of unreasonable methods (such as cold turkey). We already support 'titration'; we already support 'substitution with Valium'. To broaden and clarify this a little for you, 'we support any safe and patient orientated withdrawal method'. Hill's method involves substitution with Valium and titration: both are supported methods at BB, and always have been. These methods were discussed long before my time within benzodiazepine withdrawal circles. If you mean to ask, 'do I support methods which potentially result in tapers taking a decade or more to complete ('do the math') and contain the dangerous suggestion that people might use grapefruit (juice) as a dosing error correction device, you can be totally assured that I do not. You can take that as the 'official' position of BenzoBuddies. Again, not one person has attempted a direct defense of the promotion of tapers that would take very many years to complete, or the use of grapefruit juice as dosing error correction device (my main two points in my first post to this thread), and these continue to be my main two points. Stop dancing around, why don't you, and address these two salient and important issues.

 

And perhaps this is a way of deflecting from the issues at hand. I'm not sure that you understand this method either, so it's possible to say the same thing back although I guess you believe you do understand it. Well, I'm also done with this as this is your forum, you can certainly think what you want, I do not have to prove my level of intelligence to you, and once again I say you certainly can endorse or not endorse methods that you believe in.

 

I can't say that all of the patent makes sense to me. I can only go by what I read in the patent. The feedback I've received (including from you, and outside of this discussion) is that the patent is imprecise (confusing) in certain respects. I've raised two very specific points in this thread, but no has addressed my concerns except to say that 'people do not have to follow such suggestions'. This is not this issue. Are the suggestions I specified from the patent 'reasonable', and are they 'safe'?

 

Is there more that should be said about this or me in your opinion?

 

Intend

 

Entirely up to you. I'd dearly wish someone would tackle my main objections head on with a defense, if there is a defense, that is. After all, this board has been used for a year or more to promote Hill's method (yes, it has). If I had realised sooner that there were suggestions of tapers potentially lasting 7, 8 or 10 or more years, and the potentially dangerous practice of drinking grapefruit (juice) with medicines, you can bet I would have posted sooner. You and others seek to characterise this as me being against another forum or method. If this were the case, I would acted long before now (I have only just become aware of the details of the method) to close down suggestions of going to Hill's forum for help. Of course, it has not helped your argument that some members of BDR have come here and characterised direct pill-splitting tapers as "cut & suffer". The vast majority of people use this method, and manage fine. Even within our group of self-selecting tougher cases, a direct taper remains the most popular and works for most. The propagation of the phrase "cut & suffer" and ten year taper plans smack of dogma. These things are unwelcome here.

[[Ho...]]

"Jana" is her nickname......her legal name is Julian.  Yes,  ****** a former member at BDR, started her own board "Benzo Freedom" and attempted to use "Hill's Method" with only a partial understanding of the complete method.  She made many people ill, in the process.  This topic was discussed at length here at BB, last summer. 

 

Taz

 

Taz, do you have any evidence to back up your claims, you need to have proof before making a serious accusation like that and I also don’t think you should be naming members from other benzodiazepine forums on here.

 

Magrita

 

Magrita,

********* published a booklet and sold for $28.00 via the now defunct, Benzo Freedom board.  This topic was discussed, at length here at BB.  I did not mention any name that had not already been allowed at BB.  ***** made her identity well known when she published and sold her booklet for profit.  Yes, people became ill attempting to follow Karen's instruction and sought help from Jana Hill at BDR.  I'm sure they would not like to be named but this is the fact that resulted in the demise of the Benzo Freedom board. 

 

Taz

 

 

Edit: personal info deleted

 

Taz,

 

There is some question regarding the name you posted earlier being a public figure or in the public domain. Clearly Jana's name is, as she's used it in the patent application that we have been discussing on this thread. As for the woman you named earlier, I see no record of her in the public domain nor is her full name on this forum. Further, as far as I know these claims against her are unsubstantiated.

 

You state that she's well known, yet I see no public record of her at all in relation to benzodiazepines. Given the lack of information it would be unwise and unfair to post her name to this forum. If you'd like to discuss this with me further please feel free to PM me but as far as this incident is concerned her name will remain edited from all posts on this thread.

[[In...]]

Well Colin, you did respond which is a good thing IMO.

 

So here we go. I will also respond to you as to your concerns. I am on an iPad so I'm now going to my computer to open up several pages  on this thread in order to address the issues you bring up.

 

Intend

[[In...]]

Colin,

 

I have misunderstood that Ashtons method is basically that of switching to V to taper. I thought it did also include direct pill cutting.

 

Conflate means to blend, fuse, merge two issues of similar description or even dissimilar description into one issue. Theres the specific you do not request, but appear to demand when you say, "Be specific." It is my opinion that back on page 22 of this thread that you conflated the two issues when you stated I had made spurious claims that BB was against titration while in the same post you had quoted me saying that I felt BB was disparaging of other non-Ashton methods of tapering. While that is absolutely untrue on my part, and I did counter that later on in this thread, your main post focused on the patented method we are now referring to with numerous comments by you about how it supposedly would work and your amazement that no one had attempted to defend against your concerns about the length of the taper (7 years) or the use of grapefruit juice. This was all in the main body of your post, and at the very end, you tell me that I have made spurious claims that BB is against titration. This is, IMO, conflating the two issues.

 

Yes, of course you can comment on a patent and or its process and or the process that goes into obtaining the patent. We all can do that. And I add, you have done so at length, and on numerous occasions in this thread until it does seem to me that you are overly defensive of the patent being granted. I wonder why you care if it takes any individual decades to defend their patent or how much money they would have to spend, especially since you do not believe this will stand up to a challenge? If I misinterpret that statement, please correct me as Im sure you will.

 

It is good that you are not upset, although it does come across to me that you seek very hard to discredit every aspect of this patent and its contents, and have done so many times in a fashion that displays upset, consternation, and incredulity in doing so. And I also think that you seek to persuade others to that way of thinking. I do believe, if it is any comfort to you, that many are and will be persuaded to what you think and say. So if the patent is undefendable as you say it is, why do you care? I am not an attorney, but I do know that there is a rigourous process that the applicant must adhere to in applying. I do understand certain elements of patent law here, and certainly as well as you do. I do not like that you appear to me to take such a superior attitude towards what I do or do not know as I have stated earlier. Are you an attorney? Do you fully understand US patent law. I am aware of the validity aspects. But since you feel this is so flawed and will go down to defeat if challenged, I ask again, why do you care?

 

It may not make a difference to you that I say I understand the process here, but it matters to me. And I have stated that I am no expert at reading patents. But if I understand the process, then why do I need to find that in the patent? And if parts of this are unprotected as you say, I ask again, why do you care? And the part that you called imprecise is not such to me and I explained why that was.  I stated that I understood much of the process from sources totally outside of the patent itself. Just for clarification, I thus did not feel the need to explain what I understood, and I seriously question whether you really want any explanations as you have "put down" this and other MT methods from the "get go" on this thread or should I say that you have stated that BB does not endorse these methods. And for your edification, a statement like "You have chosen not to clarify its meaning, even though you claim to understand. Oh well," is an obvious attempt, IMO, to assert a certain superiority (again) over someone else when I do not believe that you are superior to me in any particular way. Since you purport to be an expert on patents and their contents and their defendibility, these are aspects that you should be able to clarify yourself without needing to disparage others while doing so.

 

It is good that you say you do not purport to be an ultimate authority on tapering methods. And undoubtedly, since you own this forum, you have given taper methods a good deal of thought over the years. I have also done so, but I do not own this forum, and in truth, most of my thoughts have centered on my problems.  If I did,however, have such a forum,  I would attempt to understand and not dismiss other methods that could make sense to me. I would at least open my mind to the possibilities before simply overtly stating that there is no endorsement of any other methods, and then go about the business of finding every conceivable flaw (whether true or not) in other methods while at the same time repeating over and over the indefensibility of someone else's patent which should not matter to you if it is indefensible as then your problems with it are solved as far as defensibility. And yet you go on and on about that aspect. Why?

 

And I might add here, that I did attempt to discuss several times the issue of the 7 year taper. I stated that the empirical evidence was in the folks who have done and are doing the taper. And they are not taking anywhere near 7 years. And that is a fact. Do I now need to bring up names of these folks? Can you just not accept that this is actually happening? I do not know if you can as you just stay focused on that aspect. And I did also discuss the grapefruit issue. You continue to state that the recommendation is to take grapefruit juice with your benzo or something to that effect. Well, the patent, which I admit to not being good at reading, does have parameters and conditions for this usage, which I do not understand myself, but which I understand also to be defendable. And I did make the suggestion that perhaps an objective  authority on patent law and chemistry regarding this part of the patent be consulted to ascertain better understanding of this. So, I am not dancing around as you so tactfully put it; I did directly address these issues before and am doing so again. Did you not read that earlier on my other posts or what?

 

I do not think, as you say, that the patent does make sense to you. I am familiar with the method and I trust it so therefore, I have not made an attempt to dissect it if I even could. And I do not know what is not in the patent as I have not looked for missing parts or dissected it as I have not needed to do that as I already understand it. Am I repeating myself? Yes I am out of necessity. I do not recall saying that the patent was imprecise or confusing. I have not read it thoroughly and I have stated that repeatedly. But I do not recall saying it was imprecise or confusing. Am I repeating myself again? Yes I am out of necessity as I do not think you understand much of what I have said or have fully read some of my past postings on this thread. I think you have read some that may have "caught your eye" but not all.

 

Well, again I did tackle your two main issues of the long taper time and the grapefruit juice, and I did it a couple of times. I just think you missed it or chose not to read it. Do we need to repeat that again?

 

And finally Colin, I ask you why you continue to act so confrontationally with members here. I asked you that in my almost last post, but you have not addressed it at all. I feel you often talk down to people here, and it is noticed whether you realize it or not. It is not becoming of a leader to act that way just because you take issue with people while at the same time speaking with kindness and understanding to others as they ask you questions. You are human arent you? I am requesting that you never again attempt to speak down to me as you do on a regular basis to others also. If they dont care, thats up to them, but I do not worship at your feet.  You own this forum, and you have used a benzo, and you have dry cut tapered, and you are a human I believe. You are not my superior in any way nor do I accept you as such. I cannot control you, nor do I wish to, but I am going to say this as IMO, it needs to be said.

 

Intend

 

 

[[Di...]]

Oh boy. I can't believe that you just don't get it. I never said there was any "rule" (here we go with more out of context quotes). I merely questioned the wisdom of mixing them. Like I said, an unequivocal statement is just that - an absolute. So once you've said it, it doesn't matter what else you say. It doesn't change the absolute nature of it. Frankly I can't be bothered going through all your posts again to pick them out word by word. I've already done that, and I didn't even highlight all of them.

 

For the third time, I make the offer: point me to an erroneous unequivocal statement I have made, where it is not expressed my view as an opinion, and I will correct it.

 

And I will say AGAIN, that I can’t be bothered going back over all your posts and re-quoting things that I have already quoted. However, I will post your most recent unequivocal comment, which I think is actually the most worrying .…..

 

"It is just a fact that the vast majority of people do not need to titrate benzodiazeines (even shorter half-life benzodiazepines). Valium buffers against changes to dose, so the need to titrate Valium would be unusual".

 

Firstly, I’m not sure how you can possibly be in any position to ascertain how the “vast majority” of people reduce their doses. Do you personally know, and have spoken to, every person on this forum (in the world?), and do you personally know how each and every one of them is reducing their dosage? I find it very strange that someone in your position makes such a sweeping statement, and then calls it a “fact”.

 

People who post on this forum have varying levels of education and ability to make their own decisions (sometimes because of benzo use). Some will be easily swayed into using various methods that may or may not be beneficial to them. There will be some who will see your above statement, and because of your position here, will be persuaded to follow your lead, simply because of who you are. Frankly, my position is that I don’t care who you are. If I disagree with what you are saying I will say so.

 

So when you post something like “so the need to titrate Valium would be unusual" (without providing any evidence), that could unduly persuade someone into doing a cut and hold reduction which may lead them into all sorts of problems. From my experience*, and the experience of many others on this forum, that method is far too harsh at the lower doses.

 

I can’t speak to other benzos, but from my experience* at speaking to people on this forum who are using valium, I would say that the majority are actually reducing their dose using some kind of daily reduction plan, whether that be titration or tablet cutting and weighing. Certainly there are some who are doing a cut and hold method, but from the ones that I know of, they initially tried a daily reduction method and it didn’t work for them for some reason. So certainly cut and hold was not their first choice, although one would assume that they are now happy with that choice if it has easied their s/x, and that is a good thing.

 

*From my experience, practically every person who posts on the valium support blog is doing a daily reduction. We have even started a separate thread to try to put all the various methods in one place to help those who are confused about the process, so they can find one that suits them best. I’m sure no one would have bothered going to that trouble if this process was so “unusual”. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=72851.0

 

*I am not stating any of this as an absolute “fact” (unlike you), but I am stating it as being from my experience of being on this forum nearly every day, reading posts and helping to support those who are trying to reduce their doses of valium, usually on a daily reduction plan. Frankly, I'm a bit annoyed at myself for allowing myself to get so distracted by this thread, because that means that I haven't had the time to spend on the valium support blog actually doing some supporting.

 

Also, if it was such an “unusual” method, why would pharmaceutical companies go to the trouble (and expense) of manufacturing a liquid diazepam (and any other liquid benzo that is available)? These companies’ bottom line is the dollar. They are not going to manufacture something that doesn’t have a large market. So there’s a small “fact” that doesn’t support your theory that the vast majority of people do not need to titrate benzodiazepines.

 

I will add that all my comments have been directly related to the low dose reductions. I’m sure people on much higher doses of any benzo will be able to successfully do a cut and hold taper, if they so choose. I would do it myself, because it is obviously much more convenient, but there is no guarantee that this will continue when they get to the lower doses. At the lower doses cut and hold is simply a much harder method to follow. Whether you want to accept that is entirely up to you. I’m just telling you what I see every day on this forum.

 

I am also not commenting in any way on the Jana Hill MT process, or the 7-8 year figure you came up with. I don’t know if that is even close to being accurate because I haven’t analysed the figures and have no interest in doing so. When on the lower doses that figure is simply not relevant anyway.

 

So, I will ask again, why you haven’t responded to the comments made by Bart. For your convenience I have quoted what he wrote. I, and I’m sure Bart, will be interested to hear you response.

 

Hi Diaz-Pam

 

Don't feel unusual about having to take small cuts with your Valium. The effects of Valium are mostly related to its duration of action with its half life probably accounting  for some longer term subtle effects. The duration of action of Valium is around 6-12 hours for most people but can last up to 24 hours, whereas the half life of Valium including its active metabolites can be as long as 200 hours. For some individuals the half life can be much shorter but nowhere near the duration of action. Duration of action is defined as the length of time a particular drug exerts its clinical effect. I've written a longer piece on this including references a few posts back if anybody wants to read more. Some lay people apparently think that the degree of  clinical effect of Valium directly corresponds to its half life. This is incorrect. In a given individual if the half life of Valium is 100 hours, there is no way a given dose will still be exerting half of its clinical effect 100 hours later.

 

I think Ashton may have emphasized half life in her manual because it was aimed at the general public and she wanted to keep things more simple. I'm sure she knew all about this when she wrote her manual. In science, when dealing with the public it is best to not go too far into the weeds, but at times this can cause misunderstandings.

 

Bart

 

[Guest [Da...]]

Hi Taz,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I am unable to find the full name of the person we've been discussing on that thread. Can you give me the url to the post that contains her full name please?

 

Hope:

 

This is the thread I found on BB back in July 2012 when I was in the process of researching microtapering. I found this thread had a very good discussion on microtapering and there is some mention of Jana. It is quite long. As I remember, somewhere on that thread is the mention of the full name of "the person" that I cannot name. I only know the name because I saw it in a post on BB.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=34480.0

 

There are other threads on BB that I found last year, but I would have to search for them as they have been buried and I did not bookmark them. BB search function isn't that good.

 

 

Colin:

 

I am also a member on BDR, but I don't post there much as that forum isn't that active, and the forum system is "clunky" with a few threads per page. I was in contact with Jana by phone back in August 2012 and we discussed reduction rate. I did a few posts on BDR. That's about it. I did not get any specific details of her method. All along, I have been in control of my daily reduction taper program and I decide on how I progress. I encourage taking control of one's taper with my posts on BB.

 

I would like to point out that there are BB members who are doing daily reductions without the assistance of Jana. Some are now benzo free... BB member Memories (see Diazepam thread in Buddie Blogs).

 

My microtapering does not tie me down to the kitchen because I am using pharma Liquid Diazepam and it is a no brainer. To me, if I am decreasing from 3mg to 2mg and decide to do it by cutting daily by .02 and lose 1mg in 50 days (or slightly longer if I decide to do some holds)...while someone does .25mg cuts and holds (1.5-2.0 weeks) due to being more sensitive to cuts...we still get to the same end game. There are many of us doing quite reasonable daily reductions and feel much better (manageable w/d s/xs) in our tapers. I, for one, am doing fairly okay and do prefer this method over the other. Now I do realize this method is not for all, but I think it should be an option made available for people to consider.

 

Danni

[[Co...]]

Hi Danni,

 

My concerns were primarily the overall taper rates and the suggestion of using grapefruit (juice) to as a dosing error correction device. I also take issue with an obsession with exacting doses that are impossible to achieve. I agree that it makes no practical difference if you withdraw via tiny daily doses or less frequent larger doses if the overall taper rate is similar. And, of course, a smoother taper plan can be useful, especially when quitting shorter half-life benzodiazepines. As I have stated many times in this thread, make daily cuts if that's what you would like to do, but keep an eye on the overall taper rate. After all, that's what our titration board is about - frequent small cuts that add up to a reasonable overall taper rate.

 

I have helped members devise (daily) titration schedules for Valium. I don't encourage the practice, as few people benefit from titrating Valium, and it is more complicated, but I am not actively against it. Of course, since you have obtained your liquid Valium from a pharmacist, it is much easier for you.

 

I have questioned the wisdom of pushing titration of Valium, as very few people benefit from it. If individual members feel they benefit from it, then go for it. However, it is unreasonable to detail and promote a method that encourages the idea that some people should taper off Valium at a daily reduction rate of 0.01mg (and at an even slower rate below 5mg per day). Such schedules will result in taper plans lasting ten years or more for some people (and I'm not even talking about those on exceptionally large doses).

 

Danni, it seems to me that you know what you are doing, you are in control of your taper, and are happy with your progress. My comments most certainly do not apply to you and the regimen you have chosen to follow. Your taper rate is certainly slower than what is suggested by Ashton (1mg every 1-2 weeks when at low doses), but Ashton only intends her schedules as guidelines - mileage will vary. My objections are about the promotion of ideas that are bad advice for anyone and everyone (ten-year taper plans); the promotion of an extreme regimen as an ideal that should apply to the vast majority of people; or dangerous practices.

 

Thank you for your comments, Danni.

 

Intend and Diaz-pam, I will try to get your posts later today.

[[pu...]]

Hi Goto wrote

 

 

I think the advice to go very slow could have prolonged my exposure to this drug which caused among other things severe depression.

 

This is another things that I have always thought that the longer one takes it may cause issues whether it be depression or something else, I have yet to find information on how long should a taper take at certain dose sizes.

 

All I have seen is Ashtons method and expected time to taper, so how long is to long. I started at 4.5mg in September 2012 I anticipate another 4 months to drop just under 2 mg, I am at 1.90 mg so is 8/ 9 months is to long to have tapered 4.5 mg.

 

And before I go is it safe after cutting mainly .02 mg daily to go higher in the amount I cut, in other words is it a risky thing to do when daily cutting, we are advised to not up dose what about down dosing more than what your body has been used to for months.

 

DD

 

Hello DD,

 

I am quoting your post in full, mostly in order to bring it up again.  As far as I see your post was not answered by anyone, and I hope that it will be answered.  This thread has several issues being discussed, so I can see how your questions may have easily been overlooked.  Then again, I think the questions you raised are difficult ones, and likely there is no common answer.  (I mean that I think answers will vary and will include a wide range of what's too long, and whether bigger cuts are "risky"). 

 

Also, how long it should take from a given dose size may depend mostly on how addicted you are - how quickly your body adjusts - and such.  Which goes back to a wide range.  AND I think your question is a good one.

 

I have had questions somewhat like yours.  I come to this hoping to get to drug free sooner, and with very little idea of what's involved -  I'm new to this undertaking, I do not have a long history of benzo use or of withdrawl. For me, Colin's suggestions of reducing down from 5 mg by 1 mg every 1-2 weeks was a relief. (Somewhere earlier in this thread you can find Colin's comments to me about use of a taper rate of 1 mg or .5 mg per cut.  Please note that I have been taking Valium for a RELATIVELY short time - months not years. He suggested aiming for a period of withdrawal in weeks rather than months.)

 

Having only just surmised that Valium may be a cause of much of my physical and emotional distress, the idea of taking many months to get off of it was quite a concern to me.  I like the idea of going faster and  assuming that it will be okay. (that I will be okay.) Of course I still have concerns.

 

With that said, from a practical standpoint, it would be helpful to know what sorts of signs to look for that one has cut "too much".  And what level of "stablility" would indicate it is time to cut again?

is this all simply about personal discomfort? Or are there some guidelines to use?

 

There appears to be an opinion (I'm not certain about this) that cutting "too fast" and then INCREASING dose is harmful in a long-term way.  Like it is bad news, risky, should be guarded against.  You referred to advice to "not up dose". Perhaps there is explicit advice about this that I have not come across.  Huh, I guess if that is so, then much care would be needed NOT to cut too fast.

 

I think there may also be a belief that cutting at a rate that involves discomfort can result in benzo effects lasting longer AFTER reaching zero.  I'm not sure if I've inferred this correctly.  I know I've read about people having benzo effects many months after reaching zero - which is certainly a very scary concept.

 

I guess I could summarize your 2nd question and my questions as: what are the risks in going slightly faster?  Is there a risk of long-term "damage"?  Is termporary up dosing bad? Does the period of negative effects after reaching zero somehow depend on tapering method or time?

 

I have no opinion and no experience about changing from your tiny daily cuts to slightly larger cuts.

it does occur to me that you have the option of trying a very small change, and then proceeding with another very small change.

 

For me, a part of Colin's message that is meaningful is that while there is a chance of greater difficulty than expected (in getting off benzos), there is also a real chance that extreme detail and worry about the process may not be necessary. My view is that OVER concern can feed anxiety and prolong use of drug.

 

I am fully aware that MANY people on this board have had VERY EXTREME (in my view) problems due to proceeding too quickly (e.g. CT and many references to cutting too quickly and painful results).

 

I will check my profile to see that it is up to date as to me own rate of reduction.  I am not sleeping enough, and not sure when I'll reduce dose again.

 

This is a terribly long comment, and I hope that does not discourage others from answering your questions, since I have no answers.

 

Wishing us all well.

 

[[Ho...]]

Hi Taz,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I am unable to find the full name of the person we've been discussing on that thread. Can you give me the url to the post that contains her full name please?

 

Hope:

 

This is the thread I found on BB back in July 2012 when I was in the process of researching microtapering. I found this thread had a very good discussion on microtapering and there is some mention of Jana. It is quite long. As I remember, somewhere on that thread is the mention of the full name of "the person" that I cannot name. I only know the name because I saw it in a post on BB.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=34480.0

 

There are other threads on BB that I found last year, but I would have to search for them as they have been buried and I did not bookmark them. BB search function isn't that good.

 

 

Even if you were to find the threads, my determination has been made. The person in questions is not a public figure. If these threads are as buried as you say, it was a very long time ago and I don't feel it's fair to drag her name up.

[[Wi...]]

Hi Goto wrote

 

 

I think the advice to go very slow could have prolonged my exposure to this drug which caused among other things severe depression.

 

This is another things that I have always thought that the longer one takes it may cause issues whether it be depression or something else, I have yet to find information on how long should a taper take at certain dose sizes.

 

All I have seen is Ashtons method and expected time to taper, so how long is to long. I started at 4.5mg in September 2012 I anticipate another 4 months to drop just under 2 mg, I am at 1.90 mg so is 8/ 9 months is to long to have tapered 4.5 mg.

 

And before I go is it safe after cutting mainly .02 mg daily to go higher in the amount I cut, in other words is it a risky thing to do when daily cutting, we are advised to not up dose what about down dosing more than what your body has been used to for months.

 

DD

 

Hello DD,

 

I am quoting your post in full, mostly in order to bring it up again.  As far as I see your post was not answered by anyone, and I hope that it will be answered.  This thread has several issues being discussed, so I can see how your questions may have easily been overlooked.  Then again, I think the questions you raised are difficult ones, and likely there is no common answer.  (I mean that I think answers will vary and will include a wide range of what's too long, and whether bigger cuts are "risky"). 

 

Also, how long it should take from a given dose size may depend mostly on how addicted you are - how quickly your body adjusts - and such.  Which goes back to a wide range.  AND I think your question is a good one.

 

I have had questions somewhat like yours.  I come to this hoping to get to drug free sooner, and with very little idea of what's involved -  I'm new to this undertaking, I do not have a long history of benzo use or of withdrawl. For me, Colin's suggestions of reducing down from 5 mg by 1 mg every 1-2 weeks was a relief. (Somewhere earlier in this thread you can find Colin's comments to me about use of a taper rate of 1 mg or .5 mg per cut.  Please note that I have been taking Valium for a RELATIVELY short time - months not years. He suggested aiming for a period of withdrawal in weeks rather than months.)

 

Having only just surmised that Valium may be a cause of much of my physical and emotional distress, the idea of taking many months to get off of it was quite a concern to me.  I like the idea of going faster and  assuming that it will be okay. (that I will be okay.) Of course I still have concerns.

 

With that said, from a practical standpoint, it would be helpful to know what sorts of signs to look for that one has cut "too much".  And what level of "stablility" would indicate it is time to cut again?

is this all simply about personal discomfort? Or are there some guidelines to use?

 

There appears to be an opinion (I'm not certain about this) that cutting "too fast" and then INCREASING dose is harmful in a long-term way.  Like it is bad news, risky, should be guarded against.  You referred to advice to "not up dose". Perhaps there is explicit advice about this that I have not come across.  Huh, I guess if that is so, then much care would be needed NOT to cut too fast.

 

I think there may also be a belief that cutting at a rate that involves discomfort can result in benzo effects lasting longer AFTER reaching zero.  I'm not sure if I've inferred this correctly.  I know I've read about people having benzo effects many months after reaching zero - which is certainly a very scary concept.

 

I guess I could summarize your 2nd question and my questions as: what are the risks in going slightly faster?  Is there a risk of long-term "damage"?  Is termporary up dosing bad? Does the period of negative effects after reaching zero somehow depend on tapering method or time?

 

I have no opinion and no experience about changing from your tiny daily cuts to slightly larger cuts.

it does occur to me that you have the option of trying a very small change, and then proceeding with another very small change.

 

For me, a part of Colin's message that is meaningful is that while there is a chance of greater difficulty than expected (in getting off benzos), there is also a real chance that extreme detail and worry about the process may not be necessary. My view is that OVER concern can feed anxiety and prolong use of drug.

 

I am fully aware that MANY people on this board have had VERY EXTREME (in my view) problems due to proceeding too quickly (e.g. CT and many references to cutting too quickly and painful results).

 

I will check my profile to see that it is up to date as to me own rate of reduction.  I am not sleeping enough, and not sure when I'll reduce dose again.

 

This is a terribly long comment, and I hope that does not discourage others from answering your questions, since I have no answers.

 

Wishing us all well.

 

Purple, that was a very thoughtful post.  In regards to your question/comment regarding updosing, I found this from H.Ashton perspective  and perhaps it will help to answer what you've posed.  This does go to Colins point regarding unnecessarily extending the process.  I will add that I believe this requires balance.  I think the sooner we are off the better, however, I also feel very strongly that an overrapid taper that causes intolerable distress is also unnecessary.  I doubt there is a way to get off benzos painlessly, at least for the majority of people here, I think there is a way to do this, for most, without unreasonable distress but also within a period time that is  reasonable (I won't define reasonable because 1. I can't for anyone but myself and 2. this thread seems to be heavily debating just that)

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

 

Pharmacologically, neither reinstating nor updosing is really rational. If withdrawal symptoms are still present, it means that the GABA/benzodiazepine receptors have not fully recovered (see above). Further benzodiazepines cause further down-regulation, strengthen the dependence, prolong withdrawal, delay recovery and may lead to protracted symptoms. In general, the longer the person remains on benzodiazepines the more difficult it is to withdraw. On the whole, anyone who remained benzodiazepine-free, or has remained on the same dose, for a number of weeks or months would be ill-advised to start again or to increase dosage. It would be better to devote the brain to solving individual symptoms and to finding sources of advice and support. Advice about how to deal with individual symptoms is given in the Manual (Chapter 3).

 

WWWI

 

 

[[pu...]]

Thank you WWWI,

 

As regards DD's comments about not updosing, and as regards the quote of Ashton:

 

Ashton says it is ill advised to updose after WEEKS OR MONTHS at a given level. 

 

What DD is asking about is (at least in my imagining!) different: DD considers increasing cut rate, and is concerned about predicting what is too much of a cut.

I imagine this could involve deciding to slightly updose after A FEW DAYS OR A WEEK, rather than after weeks or months at a given level.

 

After reading the Ashton quote, it still seems to me that cutting a bit "too much" and updosing slightly (to a dose that is still less than prior level) may be okay.

Obviously we are all trying to "guess correctly" as to how much we can tolerate (and/or tolerate comfortably?)

But guessing a little too high then correcting soon (days later) is not what Ashton seems to be addressing.

 

I also went and read Ashton's suggestions for dealing with anxiety and depression and found them, um, discouraging.  It's all "the usual real world stuff" like exercise, crossword puzzles, and hobbies.

All of which I'm having lots of problems with....... 

Oh well, I guess I can take it as confirmation that I need to do the stuff I'm having a hard time with.

No shortcuts darn it!

 

Also the more I read Ashton the more trapped I feel.  She talks about how important it is to be at ZERO for real recovery to begin.  I want real recovery

[[In...]]

IMO,

 

Recovery is recovery and it's great when it happens completely.  And it does make sense to me that when the benzo is out of your system completely, then it's not exerting it's influence to "down regulate" anymore. So the receptors can do their thing without the influence at all of the benzo.

 

But I also feel that recovery happens while tapering the benzo or else why do it. Yes, it's to avoid withdrawals and seizures, but those are the receptors reacting to the loss of benzo, and I picture them "contemplating" the next move which would be some up regulation. And that's the stabilization period that we all recognize.

 

I'm sure if I've got this wrong, I will be corrected, but that's my thoughts on "real recovery."

 

Intend

[[...]]

Thank you Purple and WWWI

 

I am so pleased that someone replied I have been out today the first time I have had a good day in along time how long it will last I do not know

 

Purple you mention addicted and how ones body takes to adjust.is addiction when one yearns for a drug forgive me as to be honest I don't know much when it comes to whether one calls addiction to mean they can not  be without a drug I personally detest taking Valium. I only take it because I need to take as I c/o to Valium. I have always been very sensitive to any medication and have a long list of drugs that I can not take.

 

I have been on benzos for about 2 and a half years when I had had enough, I have also c/t twice and both times was reinstated by the medical profession of which they were aware of what I had done. But was treated for Recurrent Depression so I personally have had all things against me, as I do believe and correct me if I am wrong that reinstating after a few weeks may not be  a good idea. Sadly in  my case it was months of c/t w/d sxs that my family thought that they were going to loose me I had lost so much weight I was a walking skeleton.

 

And the way I am tapering may seem to long and the amount I am cutting may be to small and who knows what the out come when I am finished will be, but whether it will be worse than what I endured spending 4 months in a psychiatric ward, witnessing what I saw and heard day in day out, what I am doing now is Just has bad but at least I am in control.

 

DD

[[Ho...]]

Thank you WWWI,

 

As regards DD's comments about not updosing, and as regards the quote of Ashton:

 

Ashton says it is ill advised to updose after WEEKS OR MONTHS at a given level. 

 

What DD is asking about is (at least in my imagining!) different: DD considers increasing cut rate, and is concerned about predicting what is too much of a cut.

I imagine this could involve deciding to slightly updose after A FEW DAYS OR A WEEK, rather than after weeks or months at a given level.

 

After reading the Ashton quote, it still seems to me that cutting a bit "too much" and updosing slightly (to a dose that is still less than prior level) may be okay.

Obviously we are all trying to "guess correctly" as to how much we can tolerate (and/or tolerate comfortably?)

But guessing a little too high then correcting soon (days later) is not what Ashton seems to be addressing.

 

I also went and read Ashton's suggestions for dealing with anxiety and depression and found them, um, discouraging.  It's all "the usual real world stuff" like exercise, crossword puzzles, and hobbies.

All of which I'm having lots of problems with....... 

Oh well, I guess I can take it as confirmation that I need to do the stuff I'm having a hard time with.

No shortcuts darn it!

 

Also the more I read Ashton the more trapped I feel.  She talks about how important it is to be at ZERO for real recovery to begin.  I want real recovery

 

I firmly believe that I healed while tapering. There's not doubt in my mind. I tapered so I could function while coming off. When I started tapering I made the mistake of dropping way too fast and I was hit hard but even as I continued with my taper I got better and better. The anxiety I felt while I was on clonazepam got better the farther down in my dose I got. In my opinion, we do heal while we taper...not matter what kind of taper we choose. I'd bet the farm on that. Naturally after you're off these medications that there continues to be healing.

 

Sorry, this post may be a little off topic but I had to chime in.

[[...]]

Hi Hope I am still here

 

Looking at your signature you did your taper as you felt was suitable for you. It may be to early for me to say I am now down to 1.86 mg of V. The past few days both I and hubby have noticed a difference in me, we went to see hubby's aunt today and she remarked at the difference in me from 3 months ago, so I have no idea whether it is the reduction of the V or the reduction and almost completion of the lithium.

 

Personally I think psychologically the lower I get in my head I am thinking yes a bit more less. I to think that we heal while we taper, I am even going to do some baking in the next few days, 2  or 3 months ago I was spent most of my time on the forum.

 

I have also the mitrazapine to taper so my healing will not be full complete once off all drugs.

 

By the way I am having problems getting my liquid Valium due to manufacturing, I am at present using tablets and liquid , wise move considering the liquid situation.

 

DD

[[Ho...]]

Hi Hope I am still here

 

Looking at your signature you did your taper as you felt was suitable for you. It may be to early for me to say I am now down to 1.86 mg of V. The past few days both I and hubby have noticed a difference in me, we went to see hubby's aunt today and she remarked at the difference in me from 3 months ago, so I have no idea whether it is the reduction of the V or the reduction and almost completion of the lithium.

 

Personally I think psychologically the lower I get in my head I am thinking yes a bit more less. I to think that we heal while we taper, I am even going to do some baking in the next few days, 2  or 3 months ago I was spent most of my time on the forum.

 

I have also the mitrazapine to taper so my healing will not be full complete once off all drugs.

 

By the way I am having problems getting my liquid Valium due to manufacturing, I am at present using tablets and liquid , wise move considering the liquid situation.

 

DD

 

Hi Hope I am still here

 

That cracks me up.

 

I'm so glad to read you're feeling better DD. That's so awesome. 

[[De...]]

Hi Hope I am still here

 

Looking at your signature you did your taper as you felt was suitable for you. It may be to early for me to say I am now down to 1.86 mg of V. The past few days both I and hubby have noticed a difference in me, we went to see hubby's aunt today and she remarked at the difference in me from 3 months ago, so I have no idea whether it is the reduction of the V or the reduction and almost completion of the lithium.

 

Personally I think psychologically the lower I get in my head I am thinking yes a bit more less. I to think that we heal while we taper, I am even going to do some baking in the next few days, 2  or 3 months ago I was spent most of my time on the forum.

 

I have also the mitrazapine to taper so my healing will not be full complete once off all drugs.

 

By the way I am having problems getting my liquid Valium due to manufacturing, I am at present using tablets and liquid , wise move considering the liquid situation.

 

DD

 

 

Hi DD,

 

You cant imagine how pleased I am to hear you say this, I so wish the feel good feeling continues for you !!

 

Love Debbie xx 

[[...]]

http://www.db45.com/c/enjoy/enjoy_058.jpg Enjoy the days when we can as who knows what tomorrow will bring. This is for all of us which way we taper there is only one goal and that is to reach the end.

 

DD

 

 

[[...]]

I aim to please Hope I am very difficult to get rid of.

 

Thank you Debbie

 

 

DD

[[bu...]]

 

 

But I also feel that recovery happens while tapering the benzo or else why do it.

 

Intend

 

Absolutely!  The whole rationale of a gradual reduction of the drug is to try to match the recovery rate to the reduction rate.

 

And at least in my case, not only am I not experiencing any major WD sxs, there has been an obvious and ongoing reduction  in some of the physical and emotional sxs I was experiencing before (re)starting my taper

[[Ma...]]

 

I guess I shouldn't think too much about this unless I start having a hard time tapering ativan directly.  I guess what bothers me is I have seen or read the comments of more than a few people who seem to cut down on ativan and reach a point where they find it extraordinarily difficult to continue.  And then switch to valium.  And when I see people taking a year or so to get off 1 mg valium, it makes me wonder why its so incredibly hard.

[[...]]

This is a difficult one to answer for me in one way as I have yet to reach 1 mg, as I have always said we are all different, my personal being is that I am stubborn with the way I approach things and that includes doing what we are all doing coming off our drugs.

 

I have seen what benzos did to my own mother and grew up watching what she went through, she then developed dementia at 60, I am 6 years off 60 and when I found out what benzos can do to us, for me there was no question what I would do.

 

I have no idea when I reach 1 mg in how long it will take me and even when I am completely off all my drugs, how long it will take me to completely heal.We have a choice we either carry on taking our benzos or we come off them, why is it harder for some than others we can say that about anything we do in life sadly it is just the way things are.

 

DD

[[In...]]

Mairin,

 

Well, if someone on Valium were to cut by .05 mgs for 20 days, they would drop 1 Mg of V. That's daily cutting of course, and the person would have to be able to handle that cut.

 

Or consider a .025 Mg cut of V for 20 days = .5 Mg drop of V.

 

20 days is a far cry from a year.

 

This is just simple math, so I'm not sure where the year figure comes from, but I'm not on V, nor do I read the V threads much.

 

Intend

[[Wi...]]

Ashton doesn't say that only when your off does real healing occur, what she says is for complete healing to occur one has to be off the drug.  My take is that we heal as we taper, but while the drug is in our system, even in small amounts, it's still causing some downregulation of the receptors.  So does that mean that 50% occurs while tapering and 50% healing occurs once off or 80%/20% or 90%/10% I don't know.  But I think it's an important distinction.

 

I hear what you are saying about Ashton as well as far as some of the information she provides, in my view, much applies but some doesn't, for me anyway.  I agree, if one is testing out dosages, and finds that the level is to intense, that to do an adjustment is certainly warrented.  I've done that a couple of times as well.  In my mind that's not updosing, but I hear what you are saying.

 

WWWI