Have you changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering?

[[Ho...]]

And I do not know if one has to be a member of BB if their "methods' are going to be the main subject of such scrutiny.

 

Either I am not being clear or you are not comprehending very well today, Intend (and I'm not being rude.)

 

You were saying that if we suggest one person to disclose their credentials for giving advice, we should ask everyone. I said that I am not expecting members of BB to disclose anything. I was merely wondering what the expertise of Jana Hill is, as she is the one who is apparently feeling like an 'expert' as she is seeking a patent for her method. I pointed out that I was interested in HER qualifications and that she is NOT a member of BB.

 

Oh, I see Hope has come in here. Good. She might make herself clearer than I am managing to do. 

 

I wouldn't count on it Xana. I'm really tired 'n stuff. 

[[In...]]

Well,

 

Im hearing here on this forum from a few folks who have done the method in question, and they are saying its not taking them anywhere near that number of years that were just stated as in 7 or 8 years or 4 or 5. Do we believe them or do we dismiss them because doing so seems more convenient and fits into the figuring of persons who havent done it?

 

As far as Ashton being the expert, well yes, she is as I have said the trailblazer, but I think she is dated. Newer methods are just coming along it seems. And I do read not just questioning those methods, but a certain disparagement of them as this thread is just full of it, IMO.

 

But thats ok if people feel they need to do that to somehow feel better or whatever, that these new methods just cant work. Id say again, dont try them. Not one person is forcing them down anyones throat that I know of. But people are doing them nevertheless.

 

And it would seem that either the US patent office does ask someone about their knowledge or expertise in filing the info in the patent or they dont. I really dont know. Nevertheless, the patent was filed and accepted by the US Patent Office. And that is a fact.

 

Intend

[[Ho...]]

Here's the bottom line. Colin was simply making clear Jana's "microtaper" system. If after reading all of this thread, a member decides to go with Jana's method, then that's what they have decided to do. They will still get support here. Our members and team members will still do what we all can to help them get on with their lives. No one is trying to stop anyone from tapering in the way they feel most comfortable. We must all do what's right for ourselves.

 

 

[Guest [...]]

Words are weapons, too, people. Is it that important? I propose a truce. Now.

 

Gawd, I'm not fighting with anyone. Count me out of that one. I pretty much have discussions about topics we don't agree on, with every person in my life! Always have. Always will. I hope. What a bland existence it would be if we all agreed on everything.

 

I am very chilled out this afternoon in the wonderful world of Oz now the cyclone and tornadoes are finished here and our power has been restored. I thought I was having a conversation!  There you go!

[Guest [...]]

I wouldn't count on it Xana. I'm really tired 'n stuff.  [img alt=]http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/cheesy.gif[/img]  Hope

 

Me too, Hope. No power for my CPAP last night so drifted into 'life-threatening' sleep for a couple of hours after waiting up until 2:30am. Woke with the power and had a couple more hours 'healthy' sleep.

 

Some bad stuff going on here in Oz. It's flooding up here and there are still fires down south. Sorry for getting off topic. 

 

Thought I was having a calm afternoon chat. 

[[Ho...]]

You're really having wild weather, Xana. Yikes!

[[In...]]

Support is always a good thing.  Its good to know its here and in other places also.  We always need that in our lives.

 

Simple statements, simple truths.

 

Intend

[[Co...]]

I was/am concerned over some of the terminology you used, because there were numerous blanket statements that you made that don't become irrelvant just because you used "equivocal statements" in other parts of your posts.

 

Actually, I used equivocal phrasing within the quotes you used for argument, and often within the very sentences you highlighted.

[[Co...]]

Well, I do agree with Colin that this thread took on personal tones here on occasion as most of them tend to do here on BB from my observations.

 

Yes, there has been some personalised comments to this thread, but I really don't think it happens more often here than at the average forum. I have no problem with members being forceful in their arguments, even if I happen to disagree with them. For the record, I think you have misunderstood and mischaracterised some of my statements, but I don't consider the comments you directed towards me to be in any sense abusive. This is, after all, a discussion forum.

[[Co...]]

My "agenda" if any would be to allow the light of day into some of these newer methods without anyone person feeling the need to become defensive about the older methods that Ashton devised. I certainly could not argue as I have said before, that she did blaze the trail on these medications in a way that took these medications to task and by storm, but things have seemed to come to some sort of startling halt as far as anymore trail blazing. And we of all people know that this is simply ridiculous as I do believe that many more than just members of BB have much difficulty getting off these drugs.

 

I should like to point out that titration of benzodiazepines is far from new. It goes back to before my time on benzos. As I understand it, there used to be 'titration kits' available in the UK, but I think they were withdrawn long ago - I can't find any information about them.

 

In any case, 'newer' does not necessarily equal 'better'. VHS was step back in quality from Video2000; DAB is not as good as FM. Sometimes, forces other than 'quality' are dominant.

 

There has been no change in benzodiazepine withdrawal'. There have been no great advances in our understanding of benzodiazepine withdrawal. Titration was and remains a valid option. I took issue with some of the specifics of a patented method, and explained my reasons - nothing wrong with that. This does not mean that members are not allowed to utilise whatever method they wish. Although I would not recommend it as a method' (it even can be dangerous) we even have a 'cold turkey' board to support those that have quit benzodiazepines this way.

[[Te...]]

Xana: I'm not asking it of anyone on this forum. Jana Hill is not a a member of Benzobuddies as far as I know.

 

Xana,

 

I would like to address your statement as to whether or not Jana was a member at BB.  The answer is, yes.  She was an active member from 2004-2007.  She actually completed her own taper using her developing method while actively participating at BB as a Mod.  If you search the BB archives using  (Jana micro tapering) you will be able to read many of her old posts.  She was apparently a very popular and a highly respected member of BB.  Apparently, during that period of time,  Jana was freely allowed to guide members using the micro tapering method she had developed.  Jana left BB in 2007 to focus on her own method.  She is now at the BDR board which is owned by Dr. Scott Gonzalez.  Dr. Gonzalez has given Jana the freedom to exclusively use her method to help people taper from benzos. 

 

Taz

 

[[Co...]]

I suppose this is the bit that confuses me. For some reason there seems to be a lot of defensiveness about the Ashton Method, not only on this thread, but on many others too. Sure she was a trail-blazer, and we should all be very grateful for the work she did, but to constantly keep referring back to it just makes me wonder "why"? It's a guideline, that probably now needs updating. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The reason why Ashton's method is being defended is because it is being attacked as 'old fashioned' or 'out of date' or described as 'cut and suffer', when in actuality, nothing has really changed. There have been no great advances in our understanding of benzodiazepine withdrawal; pill-splitting, substitution, and titration have always been around (and obvious).

 

I should also like to point out, not only are Ashton's protocols (and pill-splitting is general) being described as "cut and suffer" at Hill s forum, such phrasing has been widely used at BB by those who are keen supporters and promotors of Hill's method. So, you bet that we will defend against totally valid methods and loaded language. You will note, I do not describe titration as 'Terrible Titration' or some such  nonsense. On the contrary, BB as long provided direct support for titration, both on the forum (through a dedicated board) and on our webpages.

 

It is also worth me restating: I would suggest that pill-splitting (not crossing over to Valium) should be considered first by most people (unless personal experience informs otherwise). This is because it is the most straightforward method, requires no new prescription, and is all that is required by the majority of people. So, it would better to describe this as a defense of pill-splitting (or, if I was to mischaracterise it, 'cut and suffer').

[[Co...]]

Sure, on one hand we get told that we can follow any tapering plan that we want to, but then on the other hand we are told "It is just a fact that the vast majority of people do not need to titrate benzodiazeines (even shorter half-life benzodiazepines). Valium buffers against changes to dose, so the need to titrate Valium would be unusual" (this is a direct quote). I'll try to remember that next time I do a 0.25mg tablet cut and I'm going out of my mind from the resulting insomnia, depression and anxiety.

 

Purely a statement of fact. The vast majority of people do not need to titrate benzodiazepines. It is true that the need to titrate Valium is unusual. This is true, even at BB, where our self-selecting membership are (on average) 'tougher cases'.

 

Look, if titration was as straightforward as pill-splitting, then I think the promotion of it as being the optimal method would have far greater validity. However, it is not as straightforward, and when pushed to an extreme (of unrealistic attempts of accuracy), this will be counterproductive for some, as it can encourage obsessional thinking. However, titration remains a valid and useful method for some. Just as pill-splitting is a valid and useful method for others.

[[Co...]]

I should add that some benzodiazepines are available in liquid form and it is possible to withdraw from these directly, reducing dosage millilitre by millilitre or drop by drop.

 

Actually, now that you've posted that quote, I definitely remember reading it in the Ashton Method and that was one of the first clues to me that there was an easier method out there for me. So the good Doctor herself supports this method, and no one should be told it's "unusual".

 

Prof. Ashton is an advocate for better research. Her protocols are based upon her own clinical experience. I don't know why some seem to think that Ashton would seek for everyone to follow her protocols. Most of her patients were tougher cases (mostly, they had already attempted and failed, under a doctor's direction, to quit benzodiazepines). I should also like to reiterate that Ashton provided me with some feedback before I published my overview of the three supported methods. The overview lists the benefits and downsides of each method. Members and visitors to this site would choose the method that best suits them.

[[...]]

I think because this board tends to contain many people who are titrating at a very slow pace, the advice given tends to slant that direction.

I think that I wish I had stayed closer to the doses recommended by Ashton.

I think the advice to go very slow could have prolonged my exposure to this drug which caused among other things severe depression.

 

Actually, no advice to go slow was given to me. It's just what I picked up from reading around.

And the general opinion seems to be that Ashton's method is too fast.

But her method can still take 8 months to a year. Which is really I think a realistic amount of time for a lot of people to get off.

[[Co...]]

And I do not thinkni have ever read here on this forum that the scale method is "not endorsed" by BB. Why? Did Ashton have that in her protocol? I truly do not know as I haven't read the entire thing. So if she never mentioned it ( did she?), it also should not be "endorsed IMO.

 

But in reality, using a scale is another, more up to date way of getting one measurements on any particular benzo more accurately cut ( if one discounts the filler aspect), and thus going very low on the benzo. So if BB is fine with that, what's the big problem with the daily cut, cut size by titration and whatever these work?

 

You are correct, using a very accurate scale would be analogous with titration.

 

Not only is BB not against daily titration, it actively supports it. It is a very useful option for some people, especially for shorter half-life benzodiazepines. My objections were to specific points in Hill's patent application. I do not understand why this would equate to me being against titration.

[[...]]

Hi Colin

 

I was given a chart from my psychiatrist on how to taper Valium by taking one day miss one etc, I am sure you have heard about this and this was by a medically qualified person .. This is obviously not endorsed by Ashton. I personally have yet to meet a psychiatrist or doctor that knows a proper way to taper, in fact as you may or not be aware I spent 4 months on a psychiatric ward, where I was told by a senior psychiatrist that there were no such thing as w/d sxs when one has c/t.

 

I was also reinstated and I had started the c/t roughly 4 months prior to my admission, this in itself I do believe is not a good idea, how this will affect me personally once off the Valium I really have no idea.

 

Now I am under 2 mg and I am having w/d sxs by daily cutting .02mg my question is if I were to increase that cut to .05mg surely my w/d sxs would be a lot worse than they are now.  The thought of cutting 1 mg every 1 to 2 weeks in one cut I would feel would be to much for me to handle. It was bad enough doing the c/t and only myself and family know what it was like.

 

So surely for some this would be to much and the lower one gets the more w/d sxs  some not all would get, at the moment as you have replied to me before if this is the way for me to taper then it is up to me to do so.

 

what I would really like to know is if one was to do the cut and hold method at reducing by 1 mg as stated are they going to either not have any w/d sxs or have more or even worse than they had. I still believe that people who first take a tablet may have side effects as I do, and the same when one is w/d from them depends on their body mass, I may well be completely wrong because not one cap fits all. I have yet and it is possible that someone on the forum has the same w/d sxs but are they on the same drugs as I am,do we even weight the same.

 

Hubby said something to me the other day he could drink a pint of beer and it would not bother him, if I drank a pint I would be flat on the floor for the simple reason our bodies are completely different in the way we are made.

 

DD

[[Co...]]

I'm just concluding that BB is kind of out to disparage other methods than "official Ashton methods" and that's just about it. Why else go on about this?

 

Nope. Ashton's method is just one of three supported methods at BB. As I've written here in this thread and elsewhere, in the first instance, I would suggest a direct taper, by pill-splitting, from the original benzodiazepine (unless the personal experience of the member would indicate otherwise). A 'direct' pill-splitting taper is not within the Ashton protocols. Ashton's method calls for a switch to Valium.

 

I am disparaging specific protocols that suggest daily cuts of Valium in the range of 0.005 to 0.01mg, that would add up to a seven year taper for 20mg Valium; or the dangerous suggestion that grapefruit juice might be used as dosage error correction device.

 

I find it interesting that those that have taken issue with my points have not attempted to defend a seven year taper (from a fairly moderate dose of Valium) or the use of grapefruit juice. I'm sorry, it is not good enough to say, 'well, people are free to choose which method they follow'. It may not be obvious to some how long it would take to follow such a taper regimen; and many will not know how potentially dangerous it is to drink grapefruit just with some medicines (including benzodiazepines). You do know, don't you, that drinking grapefruit juice with some meds has resulted in deaths!?

 

Please, address the issues I raised instead making spurious claims that BB is against titration. Self-evidently, given our Titration support board and the information on our webpages, this is patently not true.

[[Co...]]

Throughout my taper, I have consistenly found that if I cut more than 3.5/4 % per week (=7-8% every two weeks) of my previous dose I run into problems.  It has happened throughout my entire taper and sadly for me, is holding true even at this dose of just under 2 mg.  If this isn't Ashton's suggested protocol which apparently it's not, who's is it?

 

WWWI,

 

Your taper might be slower than the average person withdrawing from benzodiazepnes, but is completely within the normal range for our self-selecting group. You should go as slowly as need to stave off unmanageable withdrawal symptoms.

[[Co...]]

Xana--maybe it's such a big deal because there are a lot of pretty sick people on this site who don't know much about what's happening to them and feel like knowlege would be power and give them some control over a process that's scary and crazy and their doctor ain't much help. And then there are a much smaller # of people (like me) here who have some knowlege, or pretensions to knowlege, and usually arn't shy about "sharing". It's a set up made for charlatans. There are a few people giving advice on this site who do not understand basic biology, let alone pharmacology. Maybe that's why the admins are so uptight about prescriptive writing. Often, it's dead wrong. So, it's important to have some idea whether that 'expert' really is.

 

Intend--seems to me like most people do what I do. Nose around and try to find someone who knows more than I do about benzos, whose statements are self-consistent, and who seems compassionate and humble. Then I ask them. That does not describe many doctors I have met. I don't know what the problem is with BMT, but it's not hard to see that some folks over here don't like some folks over there, and it's gone on long enough to be a feud. I'd go so far as to say the situation is mutual. I speak from personal experience. And that is too GD bad, cause we really are in the same stinky old, leaky boat. And no one but us can help us, which we are doing in spite of it all.

 

Bart--thanks. I don't need anything yet, so I guess I don't really need to worry about it. Too bad. 

 

Aweigh

 

I'd like to point out that for many months (maybe a year or more) some people - often supporters of Hill's method - have been describing the Direct and Ashton's method as 'cut and suffer' (a phrase that appears to have its origins at Hill's forum) at this forum, and without a pip from me. Not only is this a mischaracterisation (for the reasons I've outlined many time in this thread), it is very loaded and judgemental language. Now that I've read the details of Hill's method (suggestions of ridiculously long taper schedules and the outrageous and dangerous suggestion of using grapefruit juice as dosing error correction device), I felt compelled to to make clear what is wrong with the method described in the patent.

[[Co...]]

Xana: I'm not asking it of anyone on this forum. Jana Hill is not a a member of Benzobuddies as far as I know.

 

Xana,

 

I would like to address your statement as to whether or not Jana was a member at BB.  The answer is, yes.  She was an active member from 2004-2007.  She actually completed her own taper using her developing method while actively participating at BB as a Mod.  If you search the BB archives using  (Jana micro tapering) you will be able to read many of her old posts.  She was apparently a very popular and a highly respected member of BB.  Apparently, during that period of time,  Jana was freely allowed to guide members using the micro tapering method she had developed.  Jana left BB in 2007 to focus on her own method.  She is now at the BDR board which is owned by Dr. Scott Gonzalez.  Dr. Gonzalez has given Jana the freedom to exclusively use her method to help people taper from benzos. 

 

Taz

 

Jana was indeed a member here, but left many years ago. However, she was not "freely allowed to guide members using the micro tapering method she had developed". I don't know when she developed her method, but it was not used here. Shortly before she left, she was investigating the effects of certain foods upon the bioavailability of benzodiazepines (not original research, of course).

 

Jana Hill lays claim to her method. The patent is in the name of Julian Hill (why Julian, I do not know). I also know from other sources that Jana has laid claim to the method she employs, and has accused others have steeling her method from her.

[[Co...]]

I think because this board tends to contain many people who are titrating at a very slow pace, the advice given tends to slant that direction.

I think that I wish I had stayed closer to the doses recommended by Ashton.

I think the advice to go very slow could have prolonged my exposure to this drug which caused among other things severe depression.

 

Actually, no advice to go slow was given to me. It's just what I picked up from reading around.

And the general opinion seems to be that Ashton's method is too fast.

But her method can still take 8 months to a year. Which is really I think a realistic amount of time for a lot of people to get off.

 

Exactly. Most people, but not all. I object to people tapering under the illusion that the worst case scenario should apply to them. Some need to taper off much slower than the rates suggested by Ashton; most do not.

[[Vr...]]

I think the advice to go very slow could have prolonged my exposure to this drug which caused among other things severe depression.

 

Goto:

 

You said what I've often tried to say but couldn't think of the right words.  "Exposure" to the drug describes it best.  If the taper is prolonged there's unnecessary exposure to the drug.

 

Colin:

 

You've done an excellent job explaining what I've only been able to allude to obliquely in some awful combination of mismatched metaphors.  You could write high tech manuals or textbooks.  I wish I had such a clear picture in my head and such complete control of my material.  Instead, I'm rummaging around in the dark and calling whatever I happen to bump into, thought.

 

Thanks for all your work and patient explaining.

 

Vribble

 

[[Co...]]

Hi Colin

 

I was given a chart from my psychiatrist on how to taper Valium by taking one day miss one etc, I am sure you have heard about this and this was by a medically qualified person .. This is obviously not endorsed by Ashton. I personally have yet to meet a psychiatrist or doctor that knows a proper way to taper, in fact as you may or not be aware I spent 4 months on a psychiatric ward, where I was told by a senior psychiatrist that there were no such thing as w/d sxs when one has c/t.

 

Hi DD58,

 

Certainly, such an approach does not chime with Ashton's clinical experience. I've even come across examples where the one-day-on, one-day-off taper method was suggested to patients taking relatively short half-life benzodiazepines. This makes little sense.

 

I was also reinstated and I had started the c/t roughly 4 months prior to my admission, this in itself I do believe is not a good idea, how this will affect me personally once off the Valium I really have no idea.

 

Annecdotally, this would seem counter-productive for most people. I think you will find that most doctors, for a veriety of reasons, would think this was a bad idea.

 

Now I am under 2 mg and I am having w/d sxs by daily cutting .02mg my question is if I were to increase that cut to .05mg surely my w/d sxs would be a lot worse than they are now.  The thought of cutting 1 mg every 1 to 2 weeks in one cut I would feel would be to much for me to handle. It was bad enough doing the c/t and only myself and family know what it was like.

 

Not necessarily, but mileage will vary. If 0.02mg per day works for you, and you feel comforted by the knowledge that you are taking it slowly, then that's the right rate for you.

 

So surely for some this would be to much and the lower one gets the more w/d sxs  some not all would get, at the moment as you have replied to me before if this is the way for me to taper then it is up to me to do so.

 

My criticisms of Hill's method are specific. They relate to the suggestion of ultra-slow taper rates (up to 7 years to quit 20mg Valium) and the dangerous suggestion of using grapefruit juice. My objections relate to the details contained within the patent - they are not criticisms of individuals following very slow taper rates. If you feel physically better, more confident or empowered by tapering off at 0.02mg per day, then that's what you should do.

 

what I would really like to know is if one was to do the cut and hold method at reducing by 1 mg as stated are they going to either not have any w/d sxs or have more or even worse than they had. I still believe that people who first take a tablet may have side effects as I do, and the same when one is w/d from them depends on their body mass, I may well be completely wrong because not one cap fits all. I have yet and it is possible that someone on the forum has the same w/d sxs but are they on the same drugs as I am,do we even weight the same.

 

For the vast majority of people, tapering off Valium by 0.5 or 1mg increments is good enough. Though, mileage will vary, so taper off at a rate and increment size that works for you.

 

Hubby said something to me the other day he could drink a pint of beer and it would not bother him, if I drank a pint I would be flat on the floor for the simple reason our bodies are completely different in the way we are made.

 

I still need to avoid alcohol - so be it. I can have the occasional bear and experience no ill-effects. But, more than one, or more than one every few months, I begin to feel unwell. It is what it is. I was only ever a social drinker, so it's not a big deal for me.

[[Co...]]

I think the advice to go very slow could have prolonged my exposure to this drug which caused among other things severe depression.

 

Goto:

 

You said what I've often tried to say but couldn't think of the right words.  "Exposure" to the drug describes it best.  If the taper is prolonged there's unnecessary exposure to the drug.

 

Colin:

 

You've done an excellent job explaining what I've only been able to allude to obliquely in some awful combination of mismatched metaphors.  You could write high tech manuals or textbooks.  I wish I had such a clear picture in my head and such complete control of my material.  Instead, I'm rummaging around in the dark and calling whatever I happen to bump into, thought.

 

Thanks for all your work and patient explaining.

 

Vribble

 

 

Thank you for your comments. I feel, though, I should have tackled this issue before now. However, the patent is only a few weeks old, so I did not know the details of the method.

 

The problem with prolonged (and unnecessary) 'exposure' is that it will, on average, increase dependency. Not for all patients, but some. This is why people should not unnecessarily draw out their taper. I am not, of course, suggesting that they taper off at a faster rate than what is reasonably tolerable and manageable in their particular circumstances.

 

Edit: typos.