Have you changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering?

[[In...]]

Vribble,

 

It sounds like you make a lot of assumptions about me from one statement and from not knowing me or my circumstances. It really is none of your business and obviously of no concern to you what my situation is or you most likely would never had spoken so disparagingly of me. This thread is  not about you or your personal opinions about anyone.

 

You can support any method of tapering you choose and I do not recall that anyone has told you otherwise. But if you resort to these kind of personal statements, IMO, it shows the weakness you feel in your ability to support your position.

 

In fact, I barely recall what you have said throughout this thread, so perhaps you speak this way in order to somehow draw attention to yourself or distinguish you as some authority on tapering methods.

 

I attempted an uninformed taper from Xanax from the fall of 2009 to the fall of 2011. I experienced withdrawl sx, but did not understand what was happening. By the fall of 2011, I did some research and finally understood what was happening to me. My doctor at the time did not understand withdrawl herself and switched me to klonopin. I was on about 1.25 mgs of X at the time. She told me to do this overnight, butbi was wary because of the different half lives. I had no guidancevfrom her, but ibdid my best to get onto klonopin on my own.

 

I ended up on 2 mgs of K + .5 Mg X as I did not know how to do the exchanges and had been already in X w/d. I was not able to complete the cross due to  high Xanax affinity and severe X w/d sx every time I dropped some X for K. I had several seizure like responses although it turned out they were not seizures. My doctors response wasc to put me back on Xanax. The exchange back was  also fraught  with withdrawl sx; this time from klonopin. After about 3 months back on X, I began to have severe Xanax tolerance withdrawl on 2.5 mgs of X. So I was advised to up dose to 2.75 X and then to 3 Mg X. Doing that made no difference in my tolerance problems. So the doctor decided to cross me again to klonopin.

 

On 6/5/12, I began another attempt to cross to klonopin. I had better info on how to do this from  my own  research and the site MedHelp. I began to  exchange .25 Mg X for .25 Mg K. Due to high Xanax affinity, I ended up in the ER on 6/14. I was able to go home that same night, and the next day I was able to tell the klonopin had finally fully exchanged for Xanax for that .25 mgs. I did these exchanges all the way  through the 3 mgs until I made it onto 3 mgs of klonopin on 12/5/12. The last .25 mgs of exchange had to be made in sections of .0625 mgs as my Xanax affinity is so high. That decidely lengththened the crossovervtime, and I experienced high X w/d sx the entire time. I am now just 8 weeks fully on klonopin and still experiencing some X w/d sx. And that is my story which you clearly do not deserve to know as you so clearly appear to feel, IMO, that you are superior to me because my opinion differs from yours.

 

I think you would be better off to avoid personal, derogatory, and very incorrect assumptions about anyone in order to make whatever point you wish to make or to support any position you wish to support. Such "methods" betray your ability to adequately support anything, and IMO, show your weakness as an individual in this arena.

 

Intend

[[In...]]

Oh and Vribble,

 

I am not a glowing example of the method I do promote. I have not yet been able to do it because of my problems. But as I have been through so much, I know it is what I will try to do.

 

And just what glowing example do you present yourself?

 

iMO, it is one of making fun or attempting to humiliate others that you do not agree with. That is not a recommendation of much other than being pompous, and pretentious.

 

Perhaps you have have success here with a few posts using that technique. I wonder how that works in the "real world" and off of benzo sites.

 

Intend

[[...]]

Vribble you are talking a load of dribble IMO.

 

Before you question other people, go look at your own history. I have no idea of your history I don't really want to know to be honest. What has happened to you was just that a happening and you have dealt with your situation your own way.

 

Thank you Intend for explaining the easy steps, I was hoping that someone would explain in simple terms as I know want I want to say but it comes out all wrong.

 

Hi DP when I read that you are without sxs you are lucky that you have found a taper that suits you, no doubt it has been trial and error I may be wrong as I have found as you know it has been a case of how much I have cut that has caused my w/d sxs.

 

I have said it before that I have been lucky that my w/d sxs have been nothing in comparison to others here and I am grateful for that, but has you and others know I have been on the other side of the coin and do not plan if I can help it to end up in that same position.

 

Purple When I spoke to my chemist yesterday and I asked would it be possible to drop from 1 mg he was referring to people that have done this, at what stage of there taper I do not know, he could have been referring to a person who is still tapering or someone that has jumped. So I am sorry if this causes confusion but I did ask him if he had ever taken Valium his answer was no, and I explained that unless you have then you don't know what it is like.

 

Even he has a chemist told me a while back that I should not have any problems coming off Valium and that he knows of only the method of take one miss one way. I do not expect him to know the correct way to taper as he dispenses the drugs but obviously knows what is going on.

 

Would I want to up dose or go back on a dose if after a time I can not cope with w/d sxs due to if I jumped at a stage that some feel is the right dose to do so, one thing is that I have been fortunate not to have up dosed as I have either held or did a smaller cut.

 

I can remember clearly the first time I c/t yes I had to do it twice before realising what I was going through was because I had c/t. The first time I did the take one miss one method as was told by my then family doctor, as I was walking out of the door, but was never told what the consequences if I either did it quicker or stopped.

 

So for me once bitten twice shy and all that, am I prepared to risk my sanity at this moment in time the answer is no, ask me as I get closer to 1 mg that I can  not answer but my gut instinct is would it be worth risking for another few weeks and then at least I can say to myself I did my best if it proves later on this was not the best way to go, tell me who does know.

Purple I agree we should pat ourselves on the back with what we are having to go through. APPALING is the right word to us.

 

Purple these are your words. Sorry I can't bring quotes over

Personally I'd be in favor of giving us each some credit for all the hard work, thought and effort.  For persisting at this task through difficulties, and for researching in spite of obstacles and potholes.

 

I feel new to all this, and the lack of information and support seems appalling to me. APPALLING.  That is not directed toward thhs board or anyone here, it is comment on the state of the art and the state of drug use......  The level of suffering, not just from the drugs, not just from withdrawals, but also he suffering from making all these decisions, all the fear involved......

 

 

DD

[[Di...]]

Hi DD

 

Yes, I accept that I am one of the lucky ones who seems to have found a daily taper amount that seems to give me no s/x, but I also know that if I mess with it I will get s/x, like I did over the weekend. I had increased my daily taper just by a tiny smidge, and sure enough about 6 days later BAM, back came the insomnia, depression and anxiety.

 

I can only guess how I would feel if I went back to doing a cut and hold taper. Actually, no, wrong wording. I know exactly how I would be feeling if I was doing a cut and hold taper - SUICIDAL - plain and simple. Been there, done that, and it's not on my bucket list at all.

 

I know how much you have been through with your taper, more than some other people on this thread will ever know. I know how hard it has been for you, and how many people have been supporting you and offering you help. I'm so glad to hear that you seem to be doing a bit better these days. Maybe now that your dose is getting down quite low, the valium is having less of an effect on you. I really hope so.

 

That's why it scares me a little when I hear someone like your chemist say that it's possible to go from 2 to 1mg. Chemists/pharmacists and doctors are notoriously clueless about the difficulties of tapering from a benzo. It's oh so easy for them to say "sure, just drop 1mg", but they're not the ones who have to do it.

 

Anyway, quite frankly I don't care what anyone on this forum says, regardless of who they are, or how much knowledge they think they have. None of them are my doctor, and my doctor is totally supportive of doing a daily taper, and NOT doing a cut and hold method. We have talked about it at length, and her opinions are the only ones that I listen to - apart from my own of course...lol....

[[...]]

Hi DP

 

You are lucky you have a doctor who supports what you are doing, my family doctor does not want to know, my psychiatrist IMO could not care less now they have  fattened me up, admittedly I was rather slim at 5 ft 8 ins tall and only weighed 8 and  half stone, my BMI said that I was to slim at my height, but at the same time the way I look now although people that know me have said that I look better than I ever did.

 

What I don't like is what has happened to my body due to the drugs that I was put on, I only just managed to put my new wedding rings etc, yesterday and that was a struggle.

 

The last time I saw my psychiatrist was 6 weeks before xmas I should have spoken to her over the phone the other week, she did not ring nor did her secretary let me know she would not be ringing, no idea when I will see any one.

 

Your comment DP

That's why it scares me a little when I hear someone like your chemist say that it's possible to go from 2 to 1mg. Chemists/pharmacists and doctors are notoriously clueless about the difficulties of tapering from a benzo. It's oh so easy for them to say "sure, just drop 1mg", but they're not the ones who have to do it.

 

I have to agree but this is the same with everything unless you have been in the same situation what ever that situation is, don't say to me I know what you are going through, because you don't end of.

 

DD

[[aw...]]

..."3 years of withdrawal and still at the rather hefty dose 3 Mg's of Klonopin?  How many more years are you going to take?  I thought you said any taper that lasted years was an exaggeration.  Or was that Diaz-Pam?  I get the two of you confused, you sound so much alike."

 

Vribble, if you can only defend the position with an ad hominum attack like the lame insult above, it really highlights your weakness. And who delegated you the authority to judge other people's tapers? "Rather hefty dose 3 Mg's of Klonopin"? More like a rather hefty ego, I'd say BTW, what system of measurements is the "Mg" in?. "Flooded this site with your extreme propaganda"? How about flooding this thread with your extreme cliches?

 

OK, next runner...

 

aweigh

[Guest [St...]]

..."3 years of withdrawal and still at the rather hefty dose 3 Mg's of Klonopin?  How many more years are you going to take?  I thought you said any taper that lasted years was an exaggeration.  Or was that Diaz-Pam?  I get the two of you confused, you sound so much alike."

 

My goodness, Vribble, you sound like a 4th grader...'nah, nah, I get the two of you confused'...can't you insult those of superior intelligence with any more class than that, you deracinated speciman of asininity? And who delegated you the authority to judge other people's tapers? "Rather hefty dose 3 Mg's of Klonopin"? More like a rather hefty ego [And what system of measurements is the "Mg" in?]. "Flooded this site with your extreme propaganda"? Aw, come off it! Just  take a deep breath and read that sentence a couple of times.

 

OK, next runner...

 

aweigh

 

Wow Aweigh,

 

You accuse Vribble of being childish, yet you finish your post off with a combative OK next runner.......

 

Seriously, what a sad state of affairs.  It's pack mentality like this that destroys forums.  We have the Alpha, The Omega and all the minions involved now too.

 

can't you insult those of superior intelligence with any more class than that, you deracinated speciman of asininity

 

So you have a decent vocab, but that is such a blatant 'try hard' look at how smart I am it's actually funny.  Perhaps you can gain entry into Mensa, I can provide the link if you like?  But then of course, I am sure you must already be a member.

 

For your information, Vribble has recently jumped, that's right he has completed his journey and therefore that gives him the right to express his opinion as someone who has fought and won.  If I am not mistaken, Diaz, Intend and the majority of other posters, myself included are still tapering, therefore he has walked a path we are yet to take. 

 

What a pity that this thread had degenerated into a thread which judges a members IQ, perhaps it would serve you well to remember there are all kinds of smart Aweigh.  Street Smart.  Book Smart.  Intellectually Smart. Academically Smart. 

 

My question to you, as opposed to your question to Vribble is who made you the authoritarian on IQ's?

 

Staffy

 

PS;  If you want to get really picky, I am surprised that someone so smart cannot spell Specimen correctly? Great try though Speciman!

 

 

 

 

 

[[Ho...]]

There have been far too many personal attacks from several members on this thread. This must stop. No one's message is being heard. From here on, keep your personal feelings about other members or their posts to yourself and get back on topic with a more measured tone and less rhetoric. I'm not singling anyone out. I've been surprised at the level of disrespect of many of the posts on this thread. This must stop.

[[li...]]

[move]   ......            ......              ......            ......            ......              ......        .              .......        [/move]

[[os...]]

Well, this is just what I think, and I'm not on Valium, but when I cut klonopin, I plan on using very small cuts. I want my receptors to have a decent chance to up regulate as I've been through 3 years and more of withdrawl and switches between benzos. So we each have to do what we think is best for ourselves, but that's my opinion.

 

3 years of withdrawal and still at the rather hefty dose 3 Mg's of Klonopin?  How many more years are you going to take?  I thought you said any taper that lasted years was an exaggeration.  Or was that Diaz-Pam?  I get the two of you confused, you sound so much alike.

 

How anyone so early in their taper speaks as an authority so dogmatically against Ashton's guidelines is beyond me.  You two, not Colin, can't seem to accept any reasonable middle ground and have flooded this site with your extreme propaganda.  And what kills me is that you are hardly success stories or a glowing advertisement of the method you promote.

 

Now go all tag-team on me.

 

Vribble

 

I would be inclined to think you have a point about long tapers Vribble but in fact, you have quit many times only to have some "family stress" that drives you back to the Librium and this has happened many times... you may feel good now but how long will this zero last for you??? Is it truly over? I am not holding my breath on that one... getting to zero is only a success after staying off for a considerable amount of time... reinstating is not my definition of a successful method either.

 

When you are benzo free for a year and are holding your own, maybe then you can heckle slow tapers but time and time again i see others rush only to reinstate some weeks or months later.

 

I do not know why i have to go so slow, this is something i am trying to figure out, all i know is if i push myself, panic attacks, anxiety that is like from another dimension consume me and i feel like i am living in a Stephen King movie... i lose my appetite and cannot function and it is very, very scary being in that situation.

 

Many times i have thought i should make bigger cuts and ride each one out, i have never tried this but i see many that cut and hold switching to much slower methods in the lower mgs.

 

Does this get as bad as some make out?

 

I have no idea.

 

I know i get pretty bad if i get ahead of myself.

 

I somehow know it´s not just a case of gritting ones teeth and going for it, if it were a matter of will, i think many of us would just bite the bullet and get this done, then again, liquid Valium is manufactured for a reason and i am not prepared to take the risk of being in a crappy state for many months due to impatience.

 

Something happens at zero, even those that taper very low can get hit hard, i get the impression it´s very much a case of how well we are when we are arriving at zero that makes a huge difference.

 

I don´t even know how many do fare well at zero, given the fact many sign up to this site, there are not a great number of success stories which just leads me to believe that many reinstate and admit a drug free life is an illusion.

 

For some this does take years... if i could go into hospital and be supervised off the last of this i would still have hesitations because i know the ramifications of a rapid taper off can last for years, so i often ask myself the question if rushing this is really worth it?

 

I will add that i have also read success stories from those that thought they were healed only to get hit with waves later... so even apparent healing to me seems this can be false also... why do so many seem to reinstate? There is obviously good reason and in many ways, i do think that a longer taper can only be beneficial in the longer term... maybe i am wrong but like i say, i have seen you reinstate enough times and that does not exactly spell  success to me... you once wrote that all of this was over by 5mg Librium yet you were recently hanging onto half a mg Librium... you know, nobody ever made it off this crap easily so please do not mock others, or at least be clean and sober for a year and then i may just listen... going back to the pills because of a drink craving is no excuse either, in order to stay clean and sober you gotta work at it daily, not give in because your grandchildren are a handful for a few hours... in my opinion, doing a slow taper takes guts.

 

Oscar

 

 

[[Ho...]]

 

 

 

I would be inclined to think you have a point about long tapers Vribble but in fact, you have quit many times only to have some "family stress" that drives you back to the Librium and this has happened many times... you may feel good now but how long will this zero last for you??? Is it truly over? I am not holding my breath on that one... getting to zero is only a success after staying off for a considerable amount of time... reinstating is not my definition of a successful method either.

 

When you are benzo free for a year and are holding your own, maybe then you can heckle slow tapers but time and time again i see others rush only to reinstate some weeks or months later.

 

 

 

Oscar,

 

I've asked that this sort of posting to stop. Please leave personal comments off this thread. Again, this is directed to all who have contributed to this thread.

[[In...]]

BB actually does have a policy guideline regarding personal attacks and showing disrespect towards other members. It's in the Communitity Policies and Documents section.

 

Specifically saying "Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purpose of causing arguments and/or ill feeling, will be banned."

 

And perhaps therein lies the "out" on this rule, as I do not believe myself this one particular person created his account to cause arguments or ill feeling overall, nor has most likely ever done so in  the history of the account.

 

But in this case, disrespect and a distinct "lack of politeness" was shown rather blatantly toward me and another fellow BB by this one particular member, in my opinion. And I only happened to see it at a rather late hour, and in was tired, and made an attempt to respond.

 

And IMO, It is this individual who should be advised to stop the personal attacks as, to me, this is where this clearly began.

 

I feel it is necessary, and will do so, to remove my signature as it enables this sort of behavior to happen as this person clearly took advantage of that in my opinion to "lob one in" and did not appear to care what my history is or what I have been through to get where I am today. And although I did explain this in my lengthy post last night, did it get read, does that person care, does any of this matter?

 

I will also say that by allowing this type of behavior to happen with no repercussion for that one person, I do feel very much unsupported by the forum heads here. And for the record, I am not a "long taperer" or "early in my taper" as this person states. I am someone who was initially NOT benzowise, had NO guidance from my doctor, and was switched back and forth 4 TIMES between XANAX and KLONOPIN in less than one year. And as a result of this, I have experienced TREMENDOUS states of withdrawl that could possibly "take down a bull elephant."

 

So although I also wish this thread had stayed completely on track, I did not take it off track. That person did. I had to say this as I cannot let my integrity be impugned by one person who is ignorant of me and does not appear to care one bit.

 

And now for me, the thread will hopefully get back on track, and this person will cease their personal attacks.

 

Intend

[[Ho...]]

BB actually does have a policy guideline regarding personal attacks and showing disrespect towards other members. It's in the Communitity Policies and Documents section.

 

Specifically saying "Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purpose of causing arguments and/or ill feeling, will be banned."

 

And perhaps therein lies the "out" on this rule, as I do not believe myself this one particular person created his account to cause arguments or ill feeling overall, nor has most likely ever done so in  the history of the account.

 

But in this case, disrespect and a distinct "lack of politeness" was shown rather blatantly toward me and another fellow BB by this one particular member, in my opinion. And I only happened to see it at a rather late hour, and in was tired, and made an attempt to respond.

 

And IMO, It is this individual who should be advised to stop the personal attacks as, to me, this is where this clearly began.

 

I feel it is necessary, and will do so, to remove my signature as it enables this sort of behavior to happen as this person clearly took advantage of that in my opinion to "lob one in" and did not appear to care what my history is or what I have been through to get where I am today. And although I did explain this in my lengthy post last night, did it get read, does that person care, does any of this matter?

 

I will also say that by allowing this type of behavior to happen with no repercussion for that one person, I do feel very much unsupported by the forum heads here. And for the record, I am not a "long taperer" or "early in my taper" as this person states. I am someone who was initially NOT benzowise, had NO guidance from my doctor, and was switched back and forth 4 TIMES between XANAX and KLONOPIN in less than one year. And as a result of this, I have experienced TREMENDOUS states of withdrawl that could possibly "take down a bull elephant."

 

So although I also wish this thread had stayed completely on track, I did not take it off track. That person did. I had to say this as I cannot let my integrity be impugned by one person who is ignorant of me and does not appear to care one bit.

 

And now for me, the thread will hopefully get back on track, and this person will cease their personal attacks.

 

Intend

 

Intend,

 

There has been more than one personal attack on this thread. You have posted disrespectful posts as well. Even in the event that this was only one member who has been disrespectful, the only "repercussions" to rude behavior is a warning that this behavior must stop...which has been done. My suggestion is that everyone get back on topic and end all personal comments.

[[In...]]

Hope,

 

Thank you for addressing this. I am not aware of the disrepectful posts that I have posted. Perhaps that term is "in the eye of the beholder."

 

I still feel, however, that this one by that individual "crossed the line" in a big way. And as I said, I will not allow my integrity or even my benzo situation misportrayed by anyone. And that right there is at the heart of it for me.

 

This person misportrayed me and my situation, so putting disrespect aside, I simply cannot tolerate that as I feel ones benzo situation should not be brought into a thread like this unless one wants to do it, or the other person clearly knows it, and it is relevant to the thread.

 

Such was not the case here by any means. I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else about this. I feel as I feel. And if you think I have been disrespectful, especially to the degree here of that individual, I can willingly take my lumps.

 

This has now been thoroughly "vetted" IMO.

 

Intend

[[Ho...]]

I could post all your comments that have been disrespectful Intend but that seems a little tit for tat and would not help this thread get back on course. If you would like me to share them with you, I'll do that via PM.

 

I have addressed all disrespectful comments as a whole. The member you feel was disrespectful has not posted such a post, since my warning. Should that continue, this issue will be dropped. If there are further disrespectful posts after my clear warning, those members will be dealt with. I don't know what you think is a fitting punishment regarding disrespectful posts, but I have determined a warning is all that's warranted in this case and that seems to have done the trick.

 

If you would like to continue to discuss this moderation issue, please send me a PM so that we can let others post to the original topic of this thread.

[[In...]]

Well yes,

 

Frankly Hope, I would appreciate knowing where I have been disrespectful to someone. I do try to avoid that as in getting personal towards someone, and do try to stay on the topic, but none of us are perfect in this regard.

 

So I will send you a PM if it's not to much of a problem "dredging" up this stuff. Now I'm curious. So I'm sending you that PM.

 

Intend

[[aw...]]

Feb. 2: It gives me great pleasure to replace what looks to be the last post in this ugly, vindictive thread. I certainly regret my "contributions", but have at least learned some humility--which is not exactly my strong suit.

 

I think we should leave the thread up for a while as a reminder of how not to speak to each other.

 

Aweigh

[[Ho...]]

Feb. 2: It gives me great pleasure to replace what looks to be the last post in this ugly, vindictive thread. I certainly regret my "contributions", but have at least learned some humility--which is not exactly my strong suit.

 

I think we should leave the thread up for a while as a reminder of how not to speak to each other.

 

Aweigh

 

I think there is some very important information on this thread. Granted it did take a turn but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. 

[[aw...]]

Agreed. Would you care to sort that lot out...

 

Aweigh

[[Ho...]]

Nope. 

[[...]]

Agreed. Would you care to sort that lot out...

 

Aweigh

 

Morning you two

 

Please no more I can not take this any more, aweigh what do you mean sort that lot out  :laugh:I am confused.

 

DD

[[...]]

:nono: :nono:

 

I see that there is another thread that has been started which way how much I am once bitten twice shy. I will look but I am keeping out this time.

 

DD

[[Ho...]]

:nono: :nono:

 

I see that there is another thread that has been started which way how much I am once bitten twice shy. I will look but I am keeping out this time.

 

DD

 

Taper rates have always been a debate around here. I'm sure if you really searched you'd find a lot of threads on the subject. 

[[So...]]

bump (for Colin's posts)

[[Ma...]]

I changed to dlmt