Have you changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering?

[[In...]]

Well,

 

I don't have any access to the application, and that in and of itself may be entering into a legal arena of which I am not qualified to address either.

 

Im thinking that these reductions as the client drops down to lower levels of benzo via tapering may or may not require lowering and the word "may" was used in the first quote.

 

In the second quote, the statement is "usually must be made smaller."

 

There's room here, IMO, for variation depending on the person in both these quotes.

 

Well, once again, no endorsement one way or the other. Just reading what is written. People should do whatever they want or feel works for them. Opinions will vary on method w/o doubt. Results will also vary.

 

I dont know how to construct a patent at all. That's a lawyers job in general. I'm not a lawyer nor have I seen or will I see the patent necessarily.

 

We're all entitled to opinions here and there about so many things. Just another one.

 

Intend

[[...]]

This is what I find so confusing and I mean confusing, these past few days have been the worse I have had in a while not saying that other times have been easier, I have been daily cutting.

 

It was worked out that I had cut .24 mg in about 15/16 day's I am now at 2 mg which to me is no big deal when I get to zero that is the time to party.

 

Whether I am cutting to much in a short period of time as I have been advised that I am doing, or the fact I had also tapered lithium I don't know.

 

Now it is a case of either daily cutting or cut and hold as Ashton taper except is hers to much, I really don't know.

 

DD

[[Co...]]

Hi Intend to be off,

 

It was a textual link in my main post:

 

TREATMENT TOOL AND METHOD OF GRADUAL WITHDRAWAL FROM BENZODIAZEPINE DEPENDENCY

 

IMO, it is unreasonable to suggest taper rates of the order of 0.01mg Valium per day (or slower). If an individual wishes to do this, fine, this is their choice. But, there is no good reason for suggesting such slow taper rates to others.

[[Co...]]

Now it is a case of either daily cutting or cut and hold as Ashton taper except is hers to much, I really don't know.

 

As I explained in my main post, Valium has 'in-built microtapering'. When you make a cut to your Valium (by pill-splitting), the corresponding drop in blood levels will occur gradually (over a week or more).

[[Vr...]]

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Valium has 'in-built microtapering'. When you make a cut to your Valium (by pill-splitting), the corresponding drop in blood levels will occur gradually (over a week or more).

 

I also don't understand the need to take something as long-acting as Valium several times per day, in the name of smoothness.  Not sure that is in the secret method, but many Micro'ers on Valium or Librium are frequent, 4-6x per day dosers too.  It's not wrong, just unnecessary.

 

And all that dose preparation in the name of preciseness when everything from the batch of drugs, drug company, and different foods in the diet, alter the dose far more than a tiny 0.01 reduction.  Let's not throw out the good in search of the perfect.

 

This reminds me of the time Spike Lee sued Spike TV for the rights to the word "spike".  It was thrown out of course, nevermind that volleyballers would have to find another way to describe spiking the ball.  Will I still be able to use the words micro and taper together? 

 

Ibb

 

 

 

 

[[Co...]]

I also don't understand the need to take something as long-acting as Valium several times per day, in the name of smoothness.  Not sure that is in the secret method, but many Micro'ers on Valium or Librium are frequent, 4-6x per day dosers too.  It's not wrong, just unnecessary.

 

Taking Valium 4-6 times per day is certainly unnecessary, and probably counterproductive. If the point is to achieve some unobtainable constant blood concentration, then 6 times per day would mean taking equal doses 4 hours apart. I would suggest that a good night's sleep would be of much greater benefit. 2-3 times per day would seem sensible without being overly intrusive.

 

There might be some mileage in taking a relative short half-life benzodiazpine more than three times per day, perhaps taking a weighted dose at night (to help see you through the night). At the same time, those taking particular z-drugs with a very short half-life almost certainly should not chronically dose with their med. This is because infrequent use (this can mean as frequent as once a day) of such a short half-life drug probably will not result in dependency (it is out our system too quickly to cause the kind of GABA changes associated with dependency). So, switching to chronic dosing in such a situation would probably only result in dependency where there was little to none in the first place. Particular very short half-life z-drugs (when used infrequently) are almost certainly better tapered off over a few weeks (with no increase in dosing frequency), even after protracted use.

[[...]]

Right here goes if it makes me sound like a so be it.

 

All this is seriously doing my head in I have looked at Ashtons method with regards to when you get to 2 mg and the way she has written it.

 

When you get to 2 mg hold for 1 - 2 weeks then go to 1 mg surely this is a 50% cut and to my mind is to much in one go to drop without having wd sxs that surely is way over the top to cut.

 

Or am I working this out wrong as maths as I have never been good at working things out.

 

DD

[[In...]]

Well, Collin,

 

I took a look at the patent link that you posted. Thank you for doing that.

 

I do think that if it is suggested that someone taper .01 mgs of V per day, it's still a suggestion which that person may or may not follow. It also may or may not be comfortable for that person and they are free to "not" follow that suggestion.

 

They can "up" their cut, lower their cut, or do some other method altogether. To me, it's about freedom of choice here on these methods. And that's really it. I appreciate your dedication to explanation and looking in all this.

 

Very arduous w/o doubt.

 

Intend

[[rh...]]

Right here goes if it makes me sound like a so be it.

 

All this is seriously doing my head in I have looked at Ashtons method with regards to when you get to 2 mg and the way she has written it.

 

When you get to 2 mg hold for 1 - 2 weeks then go to 1 mg surely this is a 50% cut and to my mind is to much in one go to drop without having wd sxs that surely is way over the top to cut.

 

Or am I working this out wrong as maths as I have never been good at working things out.

 

DD

 

Hi DD,

 

You're right, that's a 50% cut. Way too much for me!! I've used Ashton method as a guide, one that I've learned that needs a lot of tweaking, at least for me .

 

All I know is that I have to listen to my body, when it's screaming from cutting too much too soon, I hold and then make adjustments accordingly. We're all different, so what works for one isn't necessarily going to work for another.

 

RG

[[...]]

Thank you RG

 

Hubby who has very kindly does my tapering said to me who on earth could drop that much in one go they must be mad, this is the point I as I have already said have had about 4 days of bad sxs.

 

You said you listen to your body and hold then cut accordingly and this is where I come unstuck by how much does one cut I have  cut .24 mg around 14/15 days and have l looked at my taper chart, and have done roughly the same on previous days.

 

I personally feel that which way we go we will get w/d sxs unless you are lucky, because lets be honest some can cope better than others, this time last year I had c/t which resulted in a 4 month stay in a psychiatric hospital being treated for depression no joke really.

 

I read of some that have c/t how they have got through it I really don't know and to cope at home, put it this way I will never do it again even at 2 mg of V.

 

DD

[[rh...]]

Thank you RG

 

Hubby who has very kindly does my tapering said to me who on earth could drop that much in one go they must be mad, this is the point I as I have already said have had about 4 days of bad sxs.

 

You said you listen to your body and hold then cut accordingly and this is where I come unstuck by how much does one cut I have  cut .24 mg around 14/15 days and have l looked at my taper chart, and have done roughly the same on previous days.

 

I personally feel that which way we go we will get w/d sxs unless you are lucky, because lets be honest some can cope better than others, this time last year I had c/t which resulted in a 4 month stay in a psychiatric hospital being treated for depression no joke really.

 

I read of some that have c/t how they have got through it I really don't know and to cope at home, put it this way I will never do it again even at 2 mg of V.

 

DD

 

A day doesn't go by where I'm s/x or w/d free. This is the hardest thing I've ever gone through in my entire life. I'm so sorry for the 4 month psychiatric hospital stay. I can't imagine .

 

I'm trying to keep my cuts at the 2.5% mark. Like I said, I'm not s/x or w/d free. As long as I'm sleeping okay, and don't have anxiety, then I proceed with my taper. I've been tapering for a long time, and I still have a ways to go. In order for me to be somewhat functional, I have to take it really slow. Having a preexisting illness makes my taper much more challenging.

 

Has holding for an extended time ever helped you stabilize? I don't know how often you cut. Holding has always helped me.

 

RG

[[Co...]]

All this is seriously doing my head in I have looked at Ashtons method with regards to when you get to 2 mg and the way she has written it.

 

When you get to 2 mg hold for 1 - 2 weeks then go to 1 mg surely this is a 50% cut and to my mind is to much in one go to drop without having wd sxs that surely is way over the top to cut.

 

Or am I working this out wrong as maths as I have never been good at working things out.

 

DD,

 

You are correct in your percentages. However, neither percentages nor discrete amounts in a taper plan or formula are inherently correct or wrong. It is just that thinking about percentages at higher doses is better way of describing a sensible taper plan. At lower doses, a more linear taper, reducing dose by discrete amounts makes more sense.

 

Two things I'd like you consider. First, even if you cut from a dose of 0.00002mg Valium to 0.00001mg Valium, this would still represent a cut of 50%. Do you think these kind of doses or cuts would be even perceptible? Second, when we are at a low dose, more of our normal GABA functioning is in place. So, our low dose of benzodiazepine has a minimal effect. Cutting a dose in half that has minimal effect will result in a minimal withdrawal reaction, as it forms only a very small part of our overall GABA functioning.

 

At higher doses, where most of GABA functioning is taken over by the benzodiazepine, it makes more sense to think of reductions in terms of percentages. Although Ashton did not use percentages in her benzodiazepine withdrawal schedules, if look at her tables, they do indeed tend to follow a pattern of relative percentage reductions at higher doses and a linear taper towards the end.

[[Ho...]]

As an example of what Colin has said; during my taper I cut approx 6% every two weeks. Toward the end I made two 50% cuts (see my signature) and felt nothing. By the time I got to such a lose dose, it was having little to no affect on my GABA functioning. I then jumped.

[[...]]

I also don't understand the need to take something as long-acting as Valium several times per day, in the name of smoothness.  Not sure that is in the secret method, but many Micro'ers on Valium or Librium are frequent, 4-6x per day dosers too.  It's not wrong, just unnecessary.

 

Taking Valium 4-6 times per day is certainly unnecessary, and probably counterproductive. If the point is to achieve some unobtainable constant blood concentration, then 6 times per day would mean taking equal doses 4 hours apart. I would suggest that a good night's sleep would be of much greater benefit. 2-3 times per day would seem sensible without being overly intrusive.

 

There might be some mileage in taking a relative short half-life benzodiazpine more than three times per day, perhaps taking a weighted dose at night (to help see you through the night). At the same time, those taking particular z-drugs with a very short half-life almost certainly should not chronically dose with their med. This is because infrequent use (this can mean as frequent as once a day) of such a short half-life drug probably will not result in dependency (it is out our system too quickly to cause the kind of GABA changes associated with dependency). So, switching to chronic dosing in such a situation would probably only result in dependency where there was little to none in the first place. Particular very short half-life z-drugs (when used infrequently) are almost certainly better tapered off over a few weeks (with no increase in dosing frequency), even after protracted use.

 

Hi guys

 

Colin:  Thanks for another great post. I never knew exactly what Hill's method was.

 

Vribble:  With regards to multiple daily dosing of Valium, unfortunately it is a little more complicated than basic half life. In pharmacology we have a term called duration of action which is defined as the length of time a given drug is clinically effective. Duration of action time for Valium is commonly 6-12 hours for most individuals but can range up to 24 hours. The exact time frame is dicey as it depends on several factors such as the drug action reversibility, the slope of the concentration-response curve, serum half and other variables. Also, Valium is distributed in what is known as a two compartment model wherein there is an initial rapid drop off in serum concentration and then a slower decline as the drug accumulates in tissues. Various studies have shown peak performance decline for the iv, im and oral routes as in the neighborhood of 15minutes-1hour  up to 2 hours and lasting as long as 3-4 hours. Also, Valium also undergoes biphasic metabolism which means it is metabolized rapidly at first and then slower later. From my reading the effects of Valium are said to correlate poorly with an individual's serum level. I know that Ashton pushes the idea of half life quite a bit in her manual, but I suspect this is to simplify things for lay people. She also has you dosing Valium multiple times per day earlier in your taper so I'm sure she knows all about duration of action as this is a basic pharmacological concept. There certainly are a lot of people on BB who will attest to interdose withdrawal symptoms with once a day Valium dosing.

 

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/pim181.htm#SectionTitle:6.3%20%20Biological%20half-life%20by%20route%20of%20exposure

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7352385

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7352385

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/diazepam.htm

http://www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-v01.html

 

Bart

[[...]]

Hi Colin

 

Please correct me if I am wrong as this is the first time I have done a proper taper previously I had foolishly c/t before, are you saying that it is possible to go from 2 mg down to 1 mg, because I know when I was in hospital they were giving me 5mg of V for 2 weeks then suddenly I was given 2 mg for 2 days and they stopped it and I had w.d sxs.

 

So surely going from 2 mg down to 1 mg is not an easy way to taper off, some may be able to do this I very much doubt that I can do it.

 

Thank you so much for your time,

 

DD

[[...]]

Thank you RG

 

Hubby who has very kindly does my tapering said to me who on earth could drop that much in one go they must be mad, this is the point I as I have already said have had about 4 days of bad sxs.

 

You said you listen to your body and hold then cut accordingly and this is where I come unstuck by how much does one cut I have  cut .24 mg around 14/15 days and have l looked at my taper chart, and have done roughly the same on previous days.

 

I personally feel that which way we go we will get w/d sxs unless you are lucky, because lets be honest some can cope better than others, this time last year I had c/t which resulted in a 4 month stay in a psychiatric hospital being treated for depression no joke really.

 

I read of some that have c/t how they have got through it I really don't know and to cope at home, put it this way I will never do it again even at 2 mg of V.

 

DD

 

A day doesn't go by where I'm s/x or w/d free. This is the hardest thing I've ever gone through in my entire life. I'm so sorry for the 4 month psychiatric hospital stay. I can't imagine .

 

I'm trying to keep my cuts at the 2.5% mark. Like I said, I'm not s/x or w/d free. As long as I'm sleeping okay, and don't have anxiety, then I proceed with my taper. I've been tapering for a long time, and I still have a ways to go. In order for me to be somewhat functional, I have to take it really slow. Having a preexisting illness makes my taper much more challenging.

 

Has holding for an extended time ever helped you stabilize? I don't know how often you cut. Holding has always helped me.

 

RG

 

 

Hi RG

 

Thank you for your time

 

The longest I have held is 3 days as I personally have just got on with it as best as I can, some have held longer but my thinking is how long is long is it a fear of cutting again may be, I can't answer that but if I needed to hold longer I would. I take all my meds at night  so just do the one cut

 

No my stay in hospital was not pleasant, strange thing though was when I was suddenly discharged when it was found I had liver issues and was sent home, to get phone call next day to tell me I needed to see my family doctor a.s.a.p..

 

DD

 

 

Edit: fixed quote box.

~Colin.

[[...]]

Hi Hope

 

Still here

 

Just looked at your signature and figured out how you tapered yours, would one say that taking other medication can make a difference and also tapering two things at the same time do not help, but the pdoc said it would be ok., so despite others saying it is not a good idea I have half done it.

 

I have always been awkward all my life and never listen

 

DD

[[Ho...]]

Hi Hope

 

Still here

 

I'm glad you're still here. 

 

 

Just looked at your signature and figured out how you tapered yours, would one say that taking other medication can make a difference and also tapering two things at the same time do not help, but the pdoc said it would be ok., so despite others saying it is not a good idea I have half done it.

 

From what I've read on the forum, most members seem to like the idea of tapering one medication at a time but if your doctor feels you should do something else, I think that's the way to go. If you're concerned about it, you could ask your doctor.

 

I have always been awkward all my life and never listen

 

 

[[rh...]]

Thank you RG

 

Hubby who has very kindly does my tapering said to me who on earth could drop that much in one go they must be mad, this is the point I as I have already said have had about 4 days of bad sxs.

 

You said you listen to your body and hold then cut accordingly and this is where I come unstuck by how much does one cut I have  cut .24 mg around 14/15 days and have l looked at my taper chart, and have done roughly the same on previous days.

 

I personally feel that which way we go we will get w/d sxs unless you are lucky, because lets be honest some can cope better than others, this time last year I had c/t which resulted in a 4 month stay in a psychiatric hospital being treated for depression no joke really.

 

I read of some that have c/t how they have got through it I really don't know and to cope at home, put it this way I will never do it again even at 2 mg of V.

 

DD

 

A day doesn't go by where I'm s/x or w/d free. This is the hardest thing I've ever gone through in my entire life. I'm so sorry for the 4 month psychiatric hospital stay. I can't imagine .

 

I'm trying to keep my cuts at the 2.5% mark. Like I said, I'm not s/x or w/d free. As long as I'm sleeping okay, and don't have anxiety, then I proceed with my taper. I've been tapering for a long time, and I still have a ways to go. In order for me to be somewhat functional, I have to take it really slow. Having a preexisting illness makes my taper much more challenging.

 

Has holding for an extended time ever helped you stabilize? I don't know how often you cut. Holding has always helped me.

 

RG

 

Hi RG

 

Thank you for your time

 

The longest I have held is 3 days as I personally have just got on with it as best as I can, some have held longer but my thinking is how long is long is it a fear of cutting again may be, I can't answer that but if I needed to hold longer I would. I take all my meds at night  so just do the one cut

 

No my stay in hospital was not pleasant, strange thing though was when I was suddenly discharged when it was found I had liver issues and was sent home, to get phone call next day to tell me I needed to see my family doctor a.s.a.p..

 

DD

 

I take all my meds at night also, been doing that for a long time. I've never felt the need to dose more than once since getting below the 15mg. Diazepam. Works well for me .

 

When I've hit a really rough patch, holding for 3 weeks has always helped me. I cannot imagine going from 2mg. to 1mg. in one drop.  Gosh, might as well c/t, and to me, that's what it would be.

 

RG

 

 

Edit: fixed quote box.

~Colin.

[[De...]]

Hi Hope,

 

Do you think that tapering very slowly at the end of one's taper is futile given the little effect on gaba functioning at this stage.

 

Would love to know your thoughts.

 

Debbie 

[[...]]

Thanks Hope and RG

 

For your replies Hope you know I am awkward I now have to decide now that I am at 2 mg tablet tonight, which is best when I next taper all liquid V or half a 2 mg tablet and the rest liquid as that is what I have been doing whilst tapering from 3 mg which I nearly died has taken 94 days to taper no idea if that is the norm but then what is.

 

So whilst I get some needed beauty sleep I shall expect a reply when I wake up 

 

DD                                                               Correction it took 62 days not 94 for me to taper 1 mg sorry

 

Hi Debbie  and Thanks                                           

[[Ho...]]

Hi Hope,

 

Do you think that tapering very slowly at the end of one's taper is futile given the little effect on gaba functioning at this stage.

 

Would love to know your thoughts.

 

Debbie 

 

I can tell you my experience Deborah. For some time toward the end of my taper I didn't notice any change with my cuts. I didn't get worse, I didn't get better. No effect at all (this wasn't true for most of my taper). I'm not sure when I could have safely jumped. I could have probably done it sooner than I did.

 

My opinion, to answer your question is, yes. I think it may be futile. I could still be tapering. I'm glad I'm not.

[[De...]]

Hi Hope,

 

Thank you so much for your honest answer, I do appreciate it and I wish you a speedy recovery !

 

Debbie 

[[...]]

Not gone sleep yet

 

Good question save me bothering asking when the time comes, is it a case when you have little w/d sxs and you don't notice when you have cut it may be okay to jump.

 

DD :smitten

[[Ho...]]

Not gone sleep yet

 

Good question save me bothering asking when the time comes, is it a case when you have little w/d sxs and you don't notice when you have cut it may be okay to jump.

 

DD :smitten

 

I don't think this should be considered a rule of thumb, dd. This is just what I observed for myself. Please remember, everything you read on the forum is the experience of other people. Your experience may be different. You should take what sounds right for you, what you're comfortable with and proceed from there. I did what felt right for me. I made the decision based on my history and how I was feeling.