Have you changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering?

[[In...]]

I agree with everything you just said, but I'd say that's hard to measure, plus it's probably individualized as so much of this is.

 

But for sure, if the drug is still there in any amount, it's doing some down regulation of the receptors.

 

Intend

[[bu...]]

Ashton doesn't say that only when your off does real healing occur, what she says is for complete healing to occur one has to be off the drug.  My take is that we heal as we taper, but while the drug is in our system, even in small amounts, it's still causing some downregulation of the receptors.  So does that mean that 50% occurs while tapering and 50% healing occurs once off or 80%/20% or 90%/10% I don't know.  But I think it's an important distinction.

 

I hear what you are saying about Ashton as well as far as some of the information she provides, in my view, much applies but some doesn't, for me anyway.  I agree, if one is testing out dosages, and finds that the level is to intense, that to do an adjustment is certainly warrented.  I've done that a couple of times as well.  In my mind that's not updosing, but I hear what you are saying.

 

WWWI

 

As I posted above "The whole rationale of a gradual reduction of the drug is to try to match the recovery rate to the reduction rate." 

 

So it would seem logical to me that if your relatively asymptomatic while tapering (as I have been this time) then your recovery and taper are probably closely matched.

 

JMHO

[[In...]]

Builder,

 

I really agree with what you just wrote. That's the ideal situation for sure, and achievable for some or many depending on the taper plan, IMO.

 

I haven't done a lot of Ashton reading. I wonder if she ever addressed this, to me, obvious goal for tapering.

 

Intend

[[Vr...]]

Mairin,

 

I tried to taper off ativan a couple times in the early 90's and had so much trouble with intradose wd sxs and splitting the pills small enough when I got to the lower doses, I switched to a longer acting benzo, Librium.  No doctor in my area would consider prescribing Valium but Librium is more acceptable.  It has a long half life just like Valium and is water soluble.

 

That said, I'm sure the BB ativan taperers can help you get directly off ativan.  I didn't know what I was doing back then and had no idea I could titrate or put it in a liquid.

 

Vribble 

 

   

[Guest [...]]

No doctor in my area would consider prescribing Valium but Librium is more acceptable.

 

Interesting. Did the doctor say why Valium is unacceptabe? What are the benefits of Librium? Is it older or newer. I know nothing about it except that Oscar uses it!

[[Vr...]]

Xana,

 

Librium is slightly older, perhaps the first benzo.  It is used a lot in alcohol rehab for dt's and severe withdrawal.

 

Over the years, Valium got a reputation in the US as a recreational drug, whereas Librium didn't.  In other words, Valium has more potential for illegal street use so doctors around here (Midwest) are reluctant to prescribe it.

 

Ibble

 

 

[Guest [...]]

Oh, thanks for that info. Glad it's not a medical reason.

 

Valium. Recreational? I wish. 

[[bu...]]

Librium is the "original" benzo.  It predates diazepam.

[[Di...]]

 

I guess I shouldn't think too much about this unless I start having a hard time tapering ativan directly.  I guess what bothers me is I have seen or read the comments of more than a few people who seem to cut down on ativan and reach a point where they find it extraordinarily difficult to continue.  And then switch to valium.  And when I see people taking a year or so to get off 1 mg valium, it makes me wonder why its so incredibly hard.

 

Hi Marin

 

There is no evidence at all, from what I've seen, of anyone needing to take a year to get off 1mg of valium. There seems to a lot of misinformation being spread around on this thread, purely because of the Jana Hill MT method, and it is totally confusing people.

 

I don't know anything about Jana's method, because I'm not really interested, but from the POV of someone who is doing a daily reduction of a low dose of valium (currently 3.29mg), using tablets and liquid valium, I can see no reason whatsoever for anyone to give people the impression that it would take a whole year to reduce 1mg of valium. That is just irresponsible scaremongering IMO.

 

I would think a few months would be the absolute maximum, and then even that is probably doing it over an incredibly slow period of time using a daily rate of 0.01mg per day. I'm sure most people doing a daily taper would be able to do it much quicker than that.

[Guest [...]]

There is no evidence at all, from what I've seen, of anyone needing to take a year to get off 1mg of valium.

 

I know of someone on here that doesn't post any more, who took that long. I am not going to name the person though. Invasion of their privacy.

 

Librium is the "original" benzo.  It predates diazepam.

 

Thanks. I had a feeling it might be very old. Has a nice calm ring to it... like equilibrium... which was probably where they got the name. What we all seek in life.   

[[Di...]]

 

 

But I also feel that recovery happens while tapering the benzo or else why do it.

 

Intend

 

Absolutely!  The whole rationale of a gradual reduction of the drug is to try to match the recovery rate to the reduction rate.

 

And at least in my case, not only am I not experiencing any major WD sxs, there has been an obvious and ongoing reduction  in some of the physical and emotional sxs I was experiencing before (re)starting my taper

 

I totally agree Builder. I believe that because I am doing a slow reduction, my body is free from dealing with the s/x, so it can concentrate its efforts on healing as I reduce.

 

Had I been doing a much faster taper my body would be constantly in a state of w/d and I don't feel that healing can commence while that is happening. Of course, this is just my opinion, but I am perfectly happy, and at peace, with the rate that I am reducing, because I can go about my daily life without even thinking about valium, until it comes to about 8pm each night when I need to take my daily dose (which takes me about 1 minute to measure out using my liquid valium and tablets). Then I don't need to think about it for another 24 hours..lol...

[[Di...]]

There is no evidence at all, from what I've seen, of anyone needing to take a year to get off 1mg of valium.

 

I know of someone on here that doesn't post any more, who took that long. I am not going to name the person though. Invasion of their privacy.

 

 

I'm sure they had their reasons for doing that, but it is certainly unusual - from what I have seen that is. I'm sure most people would be able to do it in less than a few months. Even doing it at half the 0.01mg rate would only take 6-7 months.

 

I also doubt that most people would even bother going all the way down to zero, because I don't think there is much affect on the brain at such a low dose anyway. Some people may prefer to do that of course, and that is their choice, but I think at some point I will be taking a leap of faith and jumping. I have no idea what dose that will be. Everyone is different, but I certainly don't plan on dragging it out all the way to the very last drop.

[[In...]]

Yes,

 

The prolonged, many year taper could almost be classified as an " urban legend" here in the US, IMO.

 

Intend

[[Ma...]]

 

 

I guess I just don't really understand this problem at the low level of valium.  I'm not judging anyone.  I guess it scares me a bit, should I need to cross to it.  I just wish there was an explanation for why the 2-1 level of valium seems to be so hard that people resort to such miniscule cuts.

[[Co...]]

I guess I just don't really understand this problem at the low level of valium.  I'm not judging anyone.  I guess it scares me a bit, should I need to cross to it.  I just wish there was an explanation for why the 2-1 level of valium seems to be so hard that people resort to such miniscule cuts.

 

Hello Mairin33,

 

Your post is a clear demonstration of my concerns and the concerns of others. There is no particular problem with low doses of Valium. The best study we have is the clinical experience of Prof. Ashton. Ashton's patients all switched to Valium, were mostly 'tough' cases (most had already failed to quit under the direction of another doctor), and yet, the vast majority successfully completed their taper utlising Ashton's protocols of 1mg cuts (usually) every 1-2 weeks (at lower doses of Valium).

 

There has been a lot of scaremongering regarding the taper process. It is undoubtedly true that a very small number of people have a much tougher time quitting, but they do not (and should not) need to taper off at a rate of 0.01mg per day (or slower).

 

Again, the protocols as listed in Hill's patent:

 

[0024] Based on reports from actual patient cases, there is a very narrow dosage interval that is acceptable and which causes no symptom escalation. The treating physician can use a minimum number as a starting reduction, and it should prevent symptom escalation. That number may be below the standard reduction of 0.05 mg and a reduction of 0.01 mg Diazepam or equivalent may be more appropriate. Degree of symptoms indicates time to use the smaller numbers. By making the dosage cut at regular intervals (e.g., every day), and by doing this for a predetermined time (e.g., two weeks), the dosage cut can be monitored at maintained at acceptable levels. Then, that dosage cut can be increased by another known amount, wait for the predetermined time (e.g., three days to two weeks the patient's determined Benzo symptom lag period), and if all is well with the patient, another increase can be employed. When an increased cut causes a rise in symptoms, a previous acceptable dosage cut can be used again.

 

[0025] This pattern of increasing the daily dosage cuts by very small increments allows finding the optimal daily cut for any individual. In an example, an optimum dosage can be found in the range of +/-0.00125 mg of Clonazepam and +/-0.0125 mg of Diazepam. The determined daily dosage reduction allows the benzo-dependent patient to continue at this rate until the daily dose falls close to 5.0 mg diazepam or 0.25 mg of clonazepam. At this or near dosage, the daily reductions usually must be made smaller.

 

Emphasis is mine.

 

I do not criticise individuals for following a very slow taper regimen which is completely outside of the normal range. BB does not exist to tell people how, or at what rate, or even if they should taper off benzodiazepine medications. However, the team and I will not tolerate the promotion of such counterproductive protocols as some kind of ideal at this forum. At best, such taper regimens are a last resort. Those seeking to quit benzodiazepines should taper off at the fastest possible rate which does not cause intolerable or unmanageable withdrawal symptoms (of course, the actual rate will depend upon the individual and their circumstances).

 

I will have a lot more to say about this over the next few days. Thank you to those of you that have attempted to inject some reason into this discussion. I regret that I was not aware of Hill's protocols sooner. In my defense, Hill kept the details secret until recently. Frankly, the details of the protocols are far worse than I ever suspected.

[[Te...]]

 

 

I guess I just don't really understand this problem at the low level of valium.  I'm not judging anyone.  I guess it scares me a bit, should I need to cross to it.  I just wish there was an explanation for why the 2-1 level of valium seems to be so hard that people resort to such miniscule cuts.

 

Hi Mairin,

 

I'm soon to finish my taper and I will taper all the way to 0.  I reduced 9mg of Valium in 6 months and this last 1mg will take me about 3-4 months.  This last 1mg has been my most challenging.  My goal is to remain as symptom free as possible so I will "step off" in good shape. I've had some setbacks during this last 1mg which has delayed my taper. I've battled some intense sinus issues including taking a round of antibiotics which caused delays plus I was forced by my employer to take a flu shot and the side effects caused a delay.  I don't recall too many people taking more than 1-2yrs to taper off of benzos while using daily reductions.  A very popular BB poster, mtmimi, has posted her success story here and she followed the same taper plan I have.  As I recall, she tapered off of 15mg Valium in about 18 months.  If you need to cross to Valium....I'm sure you will be OK.

 

Taz 

[[Di...]]

 

 

I guess I just don't really understand this problem at the low level of valium.  I'm not judging anyone.  I guess it scares me a bit, should I need to cross to it.  I just wish there was an explanation for why the 2-1 level of valium seems to be so hard that people resort to such miniscule cuts.

 

I guess, Marin, that there are people who aren't accepting any "middle ground". They either say it "should" take 1-2 weeks to taper 1mg, or something about it taking 7-8 years to do a complete taper (the Hill MT), which I've yet to understand, or even care about.

 

The truth is that both figures are mostly unrealistic. My best guess is that a realistic taper of 1mg of valium (at the lower end of the dosage range) would take from 1-4 months, depending on how well you cope with the s/x. The middle range of 1.5-3 months is probably the norm, going by the majority of people who post on the valium support thread, but there will be those who will take more or less time. There can't be any "rule" set in place that tells people what rate they "should" be able to taper at. It's just doesn't work that way, regardless of what some people would have you believe.

 

Having said that, there are some people who find that they can reduce that very last 1mg fairly quickly because the valium is at a point where it's not really having much effect on the brain any longer, but that is certainly not something that everyone experiences.

 

That is the truth, and it's coming from someone who is actually doing a low dose valium reduction, and talking to people every day who are tapering low doses of valium. It is also the truth that most people on the lower doses find the Ashton Method too fast and harsh. I'm not sure why that can't be accepted.

 

Of course people on the higher doses of valium would probably be able to reduce 1mg much more quickly, simply because 1mg is a smaller proportion their overall dose, but we are mostly talking about low doses, and those dropping the last 1mg of their dose.

[[In...]]

Taz,

 

This length of time to taper seems rather reasonable to me. It hardly appears to be a lengthy, prolonged, taper taking the many years previously described.

 

I believe that panic over these tapers is certainly NOT "the order of the day."

 

Intend

[[...]]

Hi Taz

 

It is 3.25 am here in the U.K was just about to go back to sleep.

 

It has taken me 62 days to cut 1 mg and that is cutting .02 mg daily if possible, am I right in thinking that you may be cutting at a smaller amount, I have anticipated that it will take me the same time to get to 1 mg.

 

I spoke to hubby yesterday about this on whether to jump at 1 mg, he said what you have been through if I find out that you have done so I will be angry, I visited my local chemist and spoke to R. and asked him about this matter and he has said that he knows of people that I have dropped 1 mg  without problems.

 

But this is the thing some may be able to without any more problems than they have had throughout there taper but then there is a possibility they may not get through dropping that 1 mg without having hitting more problems.

 

I will keep saying the same thing we are all different so what will work for one may not work for others my only goal is to reach zero in as the least possible time and cut for me no one else.

 

My question for Colin is if one was to jump at 1 mg after doing a daily cut bearing in mind ones body and brain has been used to doing tiny cuts, surely dropping 1 mg is going to not just send my brain mixed messages but the effect it could and I repeat could have on ones body, may be that bad that they are in such a mess that they would feel that they need to up dose and then start slowly taper again, or is this not likely to happen due to the small amount.

 

Whether this is easier for those that have used the cut and hold method and then cut  1 mg at a time, therefore there brain and body are used to this method and they well may be able to stop at 1 mg without  any problems, and if they were to have problems that they could not deal with the w/d sxs that all of us have which ever method we do, would they have to up dose and then start slowing down by still doing a cut and hold but reducing less.

 

I may get comments from others that think I am talking a load of rubbish, but I am simply asking a question as to who knows what as individuals are  we going to be like when we get to a certain stage of our tapers regardless to which method we use.

 

DD

[[In...]]

DD,

 

I'm not on Valium, but I do not believe the cut and hold method overall is the way to go. It may be  fine as was stated previously at the higher doses of say 15 mgs.

 

But I can think of  several folks on this forum who have done that and each time they have dropped a Mg and then held for say 14 days, they have gone through plenty of sx while that one drop settles out. I tend to think of it as a big jump from a high place and you hit the ground hard and feel the shock throughout your body. Yes of course, you come around, but you might be a bit bruised or have something sprained so you must recover from the jump.

 

But if you take the stairs, you take smaller steps, have no shocks or injuries, and get down in a bit longer time. But when you count the recovery time from the jump, and compare it to the time to take the stairs, it could be the same or even less time taking the stairs.

 

And at the lower Valium doses, I would think that just dropping the last Mg would be a shock  to the

system, particularly as one has been cutting small up to that point.

 

Well, this is just what I think, and I'm not on Valium, but when I cut klonopin, I plan on using very small cuts. I want my receptors to have a decent chance to up regulate as I've been through 3 years and more of withdrawl and switches between benzos. So we each have to do what we think is best for ourselves, but that's my opinion.

 

Intend

[[Di...]]

Hi Taz

 

I agree with Intend, that what you doing it definitely not an unreasonable amount of time. While I’m hoping that my last 1mg will be faster than that, I have no idea whether it will. I may have to take the same amount of time as you. Everyone has to do what they think is right for them, without being fixated on what the Ashton Method prescribes.

 

 

Hi DD

 

You are not talking a lot of rubbish, and your question is a very valid one, but I doubt that anyone can give you the answer, even Colin. The only way to find out is to do it, and frankly I think the risks are far too high to take that chance, after everything that you have already been through.

 

Look at it this way. If you do a sudden jump from 1mg, only to find out that it is too much, the ramifications could be horrendous. However, if you increase you daily taper to say 0.03mg or even 0.04mg, and you find that’s too much, it’s not going to be as horrendous as doing that 1mg drop. You may feel pretty awful for a few days, but all you’ll need to do is hold your dose for a while, and you will feel better a lot faster than if you did one huge drop.

 

On the upside, if you increase your daily taper and find that you are coping okay, that may mean that you might be able to increase it even a bit more. I know I would much rather do baby-steps, than one huge jump.

 

 

Hi Intend

 

You’ve described it perfectly. I’ve always likened doing a cut and hold method, on the lower doses, as “shocking” the body. The body is constantly in a state of “shock” or recuperating from that shock. A daily taper is much more calming on the body, giving it a chance to heal as you go. However, as you said, it's just my opinion. What do I know. I'm only doing it.......

 

[[Vr...]]

Well, this is just what I think, and I'm not on Valium, but when I cut klonopin, I plan on using very small cuts. I want my receptors to have a decent chance to up regulate as I've been through 3 years and more of withdrawl and switches between benzos. So we each have to do what we think is best for ourselves, but that's my opinion.

 

3 years of withdrawal and still at the rather hefty dose 3 Mg's of Klonopin?  How many more years are you going to take?  I thought you said any taper that lasted years was an exaggeration.  Or was that Diaz-Pam?  I get the two of you confused, you sound so much alike.

 

How anyone so early in their taper speaks as an authority so dogmatically against Ashton's guidelines is beyond me.  You two, not Colin, can't seem to accept any reasonable middle ground and have flooded this site with your extreme propaganda.  And what kills me is that you are hardly success stories or a glowing advertisement of the method you promote.

 

Now go all tag-team on me.

 

Vribble

[[pu...]]

I spoke to hubby yesterday about this on whether to jump at 1 mg, he said what you have been through if I find out that you have done so I will be angry, I visited my local chemist and spoke to R. and asked him about this matter and he has said that he knows of people that I have dropped 1 mg  without problems

 

I have not polled people I know about this as the whole issue is new to me. But (as I wrote in another post already somewhere) I have a friend who went from 5 mg Valium to 2.5 (stayed here about a month) then went to zero.  .... had only used Valium a few months, so probably not representative of longer term use, but none the less this is a real person.  And did not suffer a lot, found this okay.

Ashton charts show reducing from 5 to 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 to 0 if I am not mistaken.  This doesn't prove there is no pain involved, but seems to indicate that this is doable. I would presume many have done so.

I know logic is not necessarily involved, but why would it be harder to go from 1 to 0?  Seems to me it would be easier than going from 5 to 4 because finally the intake is zero which I expect would free up lots of resources in the body and also because ongoing toxic effects have been smaller taking 1 mg, so body should be in better shape.

I find the chemist's comment of interest and would go have a chat with the chemist to see what more he knows. (oh, maybe you did talk to chemist.... I'm not sure what's you vs. hubby)

 

I will keep saying the same thing we are all different so what will work for one may not work for others my only goal is to reach zero in as the least possible time and cut for me no one else.

 

My question for Colin is if one was to jump at 1 mg after doing a daily cut bearing in mind ones body and brain has been used to doing tiny cuts, surely dropping 1 mg is going to not just send my brain mixed messages but the effect it could and I repeat could have on ones body, may be that bad that they are in such a mess that they would feel that they need to up dose and then start slowly taper again, or is this not likely to happen due to the small amount.

 

Additional question: and even if they are such a mess that the need to up dose and then start slower taper, is there any reason to believe they are any worse off after this experimental jump?

I assume here that the extent of effects and decision to up dose occur within a few days to a week..

Other than a few days of high anxiety and wondering whether to stick it out, is there any loss here?

So, updose to .5 or to .75 and go on?

My question is sincere.  I don't know the answer.

Okay, let me add to that. If the "such a mess" means something like psychotic hallucinations or feeling suicidal, or going to emergency, then that's an entirely different ballpark......

 

I may get comments from others that think I am talking a load of rubbish, but I am simply asking a question as to who knows what as individuals are  we going to be like when we get to a certain stage of our tapers regardless to which method we use.

 

Well even if no one knows, this is so NOT a load of rubbish.  All these issues are quite important, and we are going to live with the effects.  It's just such a lonely business, all of these dire possibilities, with lots of uncertainty, and our own health and happiness at stake.  If we were not already anxious, this would certainly do to make us so.  The whole situation is crazy!

 

Personally I'd be in favor of giving us each some credit for all the hard work, thought and effort.  For persisting at this task through difficulties, and for researching in spite of obstacles and potholes.

 

I feel new to all this, and the lack of information and support seems appalling to me. APPALLING.  That is not directed toward thhs board or anyone here, it is comment on the state of the art and the state of drug use......  The level of suffering, not just from the drugs, not just from withdrawals, but also he suffering from making all these decisions, all the fear involved......

 

I guess I'm ranting here.....

 

[[pu...]]

Thanks to everyone who commented about recovery while still tapering.

 

My impression is that I'm much more myself at 3 mg Valium than I was at 5 mg.  I'm not really sleeping better, but I still feel there is a lot of improvement.

 

Thanks for our comments of support regarding this.

[[Di...]]

Well, this is just what I think, and I'm not on Valium, but when I cut klonopin, I plan on using very small cuts. I want my receptors to have a decent chance to up regulate as I've been through 3 years and more of withdrawl and switches between benzos. So we each have to do what we think is best for ourselves, but that's my opinion.

 

3 years of withdrawal and still at the rather hefty dose 3 Mg's of Klonopin?  How many more years are you going to take?  I thought you said any taper that lasted years was an exaggeration.  Or was that Diaz-Pam?  I get the two of you confused, you sound so much alike.

 

How anyone so early in their taper speaks as an authority so dogmatically against Ashton's guidelines is beyond me.  You two, not Colin, can't seem to accept any reasonable middle ground and have flooded this site with your extreme propaganda.  And what kills me is that you are hardly success stories or a glowing advertisement of the method you promote.

 

Now go all tag-team on me.

 

Vribble

 

I'm not going to respond to the part you have addressed to Intend, because it is up to Intend to give you intimate details of their taper. Although I'm not sure what you mean about us "sounding alike", apart from the fact that both us have a more realistic view of the Ashton Method than you and Colin seem to.

 

However, I will respond to your accusation that we "have flooded this site with (your) extreme propaganda". How is saying that doing a daily taper is "extreme propaganda"? I am in no way talking about the Hill MT Method, in case you're "confused" about that.

 

Also, I have never spoken "dogmatically against" the Ashton Method. I have acknowledged that it is a useful guideline, and for those on the higher doses of valium, probably fairly easy to follow. However, as I constantly say, in my experience of speaking constantly with people on low doses of valium, the Ashton Method is very hard to follow. Both you and Colin seem to be totally ignoring the fact that the majority of the replies on this thread have been from people who are doing daily tapers. Are either of you aware of that?

 

If you ask me, it is the two of you who can't accept any middle ground. If you were able to taper using the Ashton Method, then I’m jolly happy for you, but don’t assume that because you did everyone can. Sure Colin says that if people want to take longer to taper than Ashton prescribes, that's their choice. However, he constantly maintains that doing a daily reduction method is "unnecessary" and "unusual". You only have to wander over to the valium support thread to see how wrong that statement is, and how "necessary" it is.

 

And for your information, I AM a "glowing advertisement" for my method of choice. I'm not sure how you can claim I'm not.  Just because you say something, doesn’t make it true. Do you know anything about me, or my tapering history? Before this thread I don't think I even knew you existed.

 

I am doing a very successful daily taper without any s/x. That’s more than a lot of other people can say. The only time I get any s/x is when I try to increase my daily taper, so that is a very good reason not to increase my daily taper.

 

I'm not sure what is wrong with me "promoting" doing a daily titration method. It is a perfectly acceptable method. Even Colin would have to admit to that, even if he thinks it is "unnecessary". I am not advocating the Jana Hill MT Method at all, because I know nothing about it. I am merely using a perfectly normal daily taper, much like many other people on BB, and much like what is described by Dr Ashton herself.

 

Now, going by the way you have worded your post, you obviously seem intent on making this personal and being confrontational, and that doesn't do you or your POV any favours. If you want to discuss this issue rationally, and like adults, so be it, but I don't plan on indulging childish and unfounded accusations any further.