Tapering off Ativan Support Thread

[[su...]]

Hello to the newbies like me who somehow found their way to this forum.  My advice is you found a good spot to land for camaraderie, understanding, and a space to ask questions.  I was put on a fairly fast taper (unbeknownst to me) after only short term usage and ended up BAD.  So please listen to the advice here to go slow.  I'm going on two weeks of riding it out to stabilize.  Thinking (hoping) that is finally happening as yesterday and today I've have had moments that were actually bearable with glimmers of me again.  Sleep has been not as elusive either.  Oh, and I drove for the first time in a month and a half today, so that says something (it was both a glorious and a horrible experience--but I consider it one for the win column). 

 

Best,

 

Sunshine

[[su...]]

<snip>

If I decide to make the leap to the liquid Ativan to finish off my taper, where do I start & how do I do it with what I have?  Additionally, how do you all figure out the drop percentage?  Are you taking the percentage off the weight of the pills or the actual dose?  My brain wants to understand the microdosing of dropping .01 as taking it off the weight of the pills, but I'm not sure.  My hope is to stabilize and then begin dropping that .01 each day so things go much slower--and hopefully smoother. 

<snip>

 

There are plenty of ways to do this.  One way would be to combine 1.0 ml of your liquid ativan with 199 ml of water.  Mix well.  The diluted ativan solution will have a concentration of 0.01 mg Ativan per ml.  If you want to take 0.175 mg, you would measure and drink 17.5 ml of that diluted ativan solution.  If you decide that you want to do a slight up-dose when switching from solid to liquid, you could (for example) take 20 ml which would be 0.200 mg of ativan. 

 

The math is really simple.  17.5 ml = 0.175 mg;  20.0 ml = 0.200 mg;  12.7 ml = 0.127 mg;  1.3 ml = 0.013 mg

 

That will make enough for at least 3-4 days.  You can make a bigger stock if you wish.  Keep the unused solution in the fridge.  Mix well each time before using. 

 

So you'd need a container with a 200 ml mark.  200 ml is the same as 6 3/4 ounces in case you want to make your own '200 ml' container out of a canning jar or something like that.  If you want to get fancy, you can purchase a 250 ml graduated cylinder.  If you want to get insanely accurate, you can purchase a class-A, 200 ml volumetric flask (but I wouldn't).  You can use a syringe to measure the dosage you wish to take.  I'd think a 10 ml syringe would work well.  You'd have to fill it twice, but that's an easy thing.  Wash it out well after each use.

 

The surface of new, untreated glass can bind things like ativan, so I'd find a glass container that's been used a few times.

 

I hope all of this makes sense.

 

badsocref,

 

Thank you for this.  Have been riding this wave but last couple days seem like things are letting up some so finally feeling up to wrapping some brain power around your guidance here.  Okay, my first clarification needed is just a basic explanation of the dilution calculation math (not my strong suit) as trying to understand the diluted conversion here.  I clearly do not know my stuff here. 

 

Next question is dosing 3xs a day.  That is what I am currently doing, spreading out the doses every 8 hours.  If I draw out the 17.5 ml that would be my entire daily dose of .175 mg, but I don't take a once a day dose, so how would I accurately draw the roughly 5.83 ml for a divided up dose then (17.5 ml daily dose divided by 3)?  It's the accuracy that is getting me when the numbers don't round nicely to match up to the marks on a syringe. Basically, what is best way to ensure accuracy here? 

 

Next, the decreasing.  Am I correct in understanding that a DLMT is going down .01 mg a day?  So if I'm using the liquid, it would be a sequence over the course of a week of 17.5 ml then the next day 17.4 ml, then 17.3, 17.2, 17.1, 17, 16.9, etc...  (dividing these by 3 for my equal daily doses, of course).  Again, just wanting to get this all square in my head. 

 

Thank you for your help. 

 

Best,

 

Sunshine

[Guest [ba...]]

Hi Sunshine!

 

You can use that 10 ml syringe to measure out 5.8 mls pretty accurately.  5.83 will be a little bit of a guess as the syringe isn't graduated that finely.  A little rounding shouldn't hurt things, or you could do 5.8, 5.8 and 5.9 ml for your doses which would give you the 17.5 ml total for the day.

[[Gi...]]

What do you guys think is this tapering method? -> http://publish.lycos.com/benzo-taper/the-45-day-benzo-taper/

 

Honesty, I think it's terrible and would set most of us up for failure or cause a lot of suffering.  I think it's much too dogmatic and mcuh too fast for most people on this forum. Again, an INDIVIDUALIZED SYMPTOM BASED TAPER is the best way to taper.  Maybe it could work for someone who hasn't developed dependency or experiencing withdrawal symptoms but clearly that's not most of us at BB. Overall a bad idea and I don't like the way they use the word "addiction."  Worse recommending you switch to Xanax seems like a very bad idea.  Even my doc. told me she wouldn't prescribe Xanax because of the difficulty tapering off it.

 

There's so much stuff out there on the internet, especially on Youtube, that just isn't that helpful.  Please be careful with it.

 

Luey

 

I agree Luey.  There is no one size fits all with benzo tapering.  Everyone metabolizes the drug a bit differently.  Addiction is not a word that should be used with benzodiazepine dependency.  Addiction is an entirely different animal.  My pharmacy literature that comes with each rx warns about dependency, then in bold capital letters says "THIS IS NOT AN ADDICTION". G

[[Ba...]]

Hi fellow sojourners 

 

Just a quick note to say offer encouragement that after jumping, things aren't worse. I still have various symptoms and some bad days, but when I think of how badly I was feeling halfway through my taper, I realize how much I've healed since then. I started healing even while I still tapering. I had one of the dumbest tactical tapers with no crossovers or liquid or careful measuring, and no symptom-based progress. It was herky-jerky topsy-turvy cut-and-hold madness. I still made it through and I'm not a horror story (although other people might judge me that way, but who cares?)

 

If you are doing a carefully controlled and measured taper you will get there and will feel better-- probably a LOT better than I feel now. You're not going to mess up and suffer relentlessly, so don't doubt yourself. You are the same person who found their way here for help. You should be SO proud of yourself for what great self-care you're doing. This is so hard and it's not easy to commit to self-care when things are this hard. Motivational speechifying over. 

 

-- Liz

[[Ha...]]

Hi fellow sojourners 

 

Just a quick note to say offer encouragement that after jumping, things aren't worse. I still have various symptoms and some bad days, but when I think of how badly I was feeling halfway through my taper, I realize how much I've healed since then. I started healing even while I still tapering. I had one of the dumbest tactical tapers with no crossovers or liquid or careful measuring, and no symptom-based progress. It was herky-jerky topsy-turvy cut-and-hold madness. I still made it through and I'm not a horror story (although other people might judge me that way, but who cares?)

 

If you are doing a carefully controlled and measured taper you will get there and will feel better-- probably a LOT better than I feel now. You're not going to mess up and suffer relentlessly, so don't doubt yourself. You are the same person who found their way here for help. You should be SO proud of yourself for what great self-care you're doing. This is so hard and it's not easy to commit to self-care when things are this hard. Motivational speechifying over. 

 

-- Liz

 

Well, I appreciate the motivational speechifying.  This is one of the hardest things I've ever done (or tried to do -- it's not done yet).  It's so hard to stay motivated and keep believing things will be okay (or at least okayish), when everything is foggy and I'm completely exhausted all the time and anxious and jittery and trying to stay the course and fake it day after day at work.  One day, when the drug is gone and I can cry again, I plan to do a lot of crying for all this.  Thanks, Liz.

 

Haimona

[[Ha...]]

Hey buddies,

 

How is everyone doing today? I just wanted to say I am fully at the lower dose of .3125 now and not doing too terribly today, in spite of a very stressful medical appointment.  I hope everyone here is having a good day.

 

Haimona

[[su...]]

Hi Sunshine!

 

You can use that 10 ml syringe to measure out 5.8 mls pretty accurately.  5.83 will be a little bit of a guess as the syringe isn't graduated that finely.  A little rounding shouldn't hurt things, or you could do 5.8, 5.8 and 5.9 ml for your doses which would give you the 17.5 ml total for the day.

 

 

 

Thank you for clarifying!  Also, you noted untreated glass as not being a good idea for storage/preparation.  What about plastic?  And I think I finally understand dilution ratio of adding the 199 ml (the 2mg/mL divided by 200 gets you the .001, correct?).  Should I use distilled water or is tap water okay?  Talk about cognitive fog. 

 

Best,

 

Sunshine

[[su...]]

Liz, Thank you for the speechifying.  These are the kind of words I hold on to right now, to keep the sanity and hope going that this too shall pass. 

 

Haimona,  I'm glad you had a decent day!

 

 

Ativan Buddies,

 

For whatever reason, I am still grappling with the reality of the situation that I have found myself in.  A stubborn personality that struggles to move on to acceptance.  I vacillate between confidence in moving forward, asserting that healing is already happening (in a sadomasochistic kind of way with these w/d sxs) and having a plan of attack, then WHAMO, I'm a mess of self-doubt, indecisiveness, and quite frankly, feeling moments of depression.  These emotions definitely correlate with how my body is feeling.  As to how that front is going, I'm definitely not huddled on the floor anymore and am functionable. Admittedly I am terrified of turning a corner and ending up in very bad shape again.  I've had some moments of *almost* feeling normal again, and that was so welcomed, but when it went away, well, the terror of that unknown is real.  The reality though is that I am able to function again and take care of my daughters (albeit I'm surely not in the running for mother of the year--I will have to thank the Nick Jr. channel for their programming that currently occupies my 2 year old while I muddle through another morning).  It's a battle, and some moments more of a struggle than others, but boy do I cling to those good moments and have a newfound appreciation for the little things. 

 

I was doing okay with sleep this past week, getting some solid chunks of sometimes 4 or 5 hours, and even able to fall asleep again to get another 1 or 2.  Last night was not one of those nights.  It was anxiety tightness across back and adrenaline like surges with palpitations that kept me from getting any good sleep. It finally passed around 6:00 this morning but then my husband and oldest daughter were up, getting ready for their work/school day.  I snuggled in with the little and managed to power in 1 1/2 hours with the help of an ice pack and a heating pad.  Yesterday the dizzy spells were strong along with that burning sensation, but today it is a toned down version with some mild anxiety at bay (not counting the exhaustion).  I did shave/cut a little from my doses a few days ago when I felt things were stabilizing, so I'm guestimating coming in at .18/.19 in my pill weighing (that scale just cannot be relied on but I'm trying my best weighing/reweighing and eyeballing), which means I'm in that .15 mg a day territory.  Holding here for couple more days. 

 

What I don't know is if I'm still stabilizing from the original rapid taper or if that little cut I made threw things awry or if the potential for uneven dosing with the dry cutting at this low dose is to blame.  Again, I have never really been good being on this damn drug.  The best still was that 2nd, going on 3rd week of the original taper where I had some good days of feeling almost me again.  I've had a couple moments like that during the last few days, but they only last hours (with minor sxs in background).  Hence, my uncertainty of just how sx-free I should try to be before powering on.  There is a strong psychological component working against me when I put that stuff in my body, knowing I can't fully heal until I am off, hence my urge to be as fast as I can but I also need to be somewhat comfortable and functioning. 

 

With that in mind, I'd like some insights.  Badsocref kindly helped me out with the liquid ativan dilution/directions should I switch over to the Intensol.  For those who use the liquid, what was your switch like?  I am somewhat hesitant of adding another new element to the mix and how my body will react to a liquid formulation.  What does that mean at this low dose?  And also for those who switched, did you speed up things ever or are you truly doing a .001 reduction a day?  I did purchase a graduated cylinder and a 10 ml syringe, but I'm still hinging on moving to the liquid.  It's another leap of faith for me. 

 

To my dry-cutters out there, what tips do you have for measuring these insanely low doses?  I've been in the mindset that even if the Gemini scale isn't giving accurate weights at these low doses, I at least am doing the same thing every time, thereby there has to be some sort of accuracy in my process of lowering. 

 

I've navigated through the entire Ativan support thread here the best I could, trying to learn from others and glean helpful hints, along with hope for getting through, yet asking questions is often the best route. 

 

Sunshine (aka Amanda)

[[kr...]]

hi Sunshine-

Was your very first dose on 7/1/20 and you stopped in 7/3/20?  that's awful..  I took it for 14 days and thought that was a short time for dependency..  I had to reinstate and then did a successful 9 week taper dry cutting with the Gemini scale.  I did consider switching to the liquid and doctor did prescribe it to me..  My fear was that it was a 2x concentrate and I would not dose correctly so I decided to just stay with dry cutting my .5 pills..  I did the best I could do and never thought my cuts were perfect because the pill has fillers and the Ativan is not distributed evenly..  Others have done the DLMT and have had very good success with it.  I can only speak to what worked for me

[[su...]]

kry,

 

Yes my 1st dose was 7/1 and I did have some symptoms when I stopped 7/3 but was also dealing with whatever was underlying me starting in the first place (some anxiety over heart palpitations and rapid heartbeat that began end of June, so Dr assumed it was related).  I don’t think dependency quite hit until the next week when I lowered to half dose (really I was self tapering and didn’t even realize it and wish to God I would have continued at that time—hindsight) and then stopped on the 9th.  That’s when I ended in ER with what I know now were withdrawal symptoms.  Dr told me it was all anxiety though and to keep taking until cardiology consult.  Nightmare.

 

Did you dose once a day for your dry cut or did you spread out doses?  I can see how single dosing would be a bit easier tapering it all the way down, but that’s not my case.  Just trying to pick up the pieces where I am and forge on best I can to get off this evil drug. What kind of symptoms did you experience during your withdrawal and did you hit snags along the way?

 

Thanks,

 

Amanda

[[kr...]]

so sad this happened to any of us..  I just took one dose a day at bedtime.  when I cut from .5 to .25 that was rough (50% cut) after that I cut down .01 everday and seemed to work for me..  for many people that is fast

[[Ha...]]

Kry123, how are you feeling now? Are you back to working out? I heard your story on the benzo podcast and it was so inspiring and informative (plus you led me to the podcast, which I've gotten a lot out of).

 

Haimona

[Guest [ba...]]

Certain plastics can also bind proteins, etcetera (polystyrene comes to mind).  Once the bottle has been used a few times, whatever binding it was going to do is probably mostly done.

[[kr...]]

Kry123, how are you feeling now? Are you back to working out? I heard your story on the benzo podcast and it was so inspiring and informative (plus you led me to the podcast, which I've gotten a lot out of).

 

Haimona

 

Physically I am feeling pretty good considering the hell I went through..  my only real issue now seems to be my ears..  tinnitus is pretty bad, have ear pressure and hearing seems off or blunted..  hard to explain, I fear I am loosing my hearing but had a hearing test a month ago and said things were ok.. that's great news but something is not right..  I really hope this will clear up then I will be on my way to a better recovery..  but it really worry's me

 

I was working out and running during my taper but now I have stopped because of my ears are bothersome..  my sleep is better but sill not that good.  Before I ever took a benzo I slept like a baby..  I also gained back 10 of the 20 pounds I lost..

 

When I am 100% healed I will do a new podcast.. I also wonder if I have some PTSD going on due to the trauma of this entire experience..

[[Ha...]]

Oh my gosh.  This is just a horrible, horrible day.  I guess I have been fully at the new lower dose (.3125) for five days now.  I couldn't remember that, but looked it up in my signature line.  I can't remember anything today, and my head feels fuzzy and groggy and heavy, and I feel like I'm here but not here, and I'm jittery, and I cannot snap out of this.  Please, someone, tell me this gets better.  Tell me this isn't permanent and I will get my memory and my cognitive abilities back.  Tell me life will feel good again.  I cannot believe how hard this is.

 

Haimona

[[Gi...]]

Oh my gosh.  This is just a horrible, horrible day.  I guess I have been fully at the new lower dose (.3125) for five days now.  I couldn't remember that, but looked it up in my signature line.  I can't remember anything today, and my head feels fuzzy and groggy and heavy, and I feel like I'm here but not here, and I'm jittery, and I cannot snap out of this.  Please, someone, tell me this gets better.  Tell me this isn't permanent and I will get my memory and my cognitive abilities back.  Tell me life will feel good again.  I cannot believe how hard this is.

 

Haimona

 

Haimona,

 

I'm feeling the same today, just out of the blue.  Intense head pressure, jittery, feel ramped up anxiety, weak and digestive issues.  I had some iced black tea yesterday and wonder if this is from the caffiene or from the tiny crumb of Unisom I took for sleep at 3 am.  I just went to the store and it got much worse.  I'm going to listen to a guided meditation now.

 

It will go away, it's just getting through it until it does.  Hang in there. G.

[[su...]]

Haimona, I hear you today.  Desperation has been lurking here for me too.  My mom spoke with me via phone today and was my cheerleader.  I will pay it forward.  The strength is there.  The strength is in you.  Look how far you have come!  It’s amazing to me, knowing exactly what you are feeling but also knowing that you have been plugging away, steadily climbing your way out.  It’s an inspiration and I cling to stories like yours, because it means something.  Same thing goes to Gingermint. You know you have had better days than today, and you will have good days moving forward.  One moment at a time.  Keep on keeping on.  You’ve got this. 

 

Amanda

[[Ma...]]

Hi buddies,

 

Must be one of those days.... I am also in a wave today.... Lots of air hunger and anxiety. I've cried my way through the day, praying that tomorrow will be better.  What a tough road this is, but we will all get through it. We will heal! Big hugs to you all, YOU CAN DO IT! XO

[[Gi...]]

I'm past the worst of it, I think it had morphed into a panic attack.  That lasted for about an hour.  The meditations helped, so did eating an early dinner.  Who knows why.  I don't feel great yet but there's always tomorrow.  Distraction helps but eventually I feel so worn out, I'm too tired to distract.

 

It's been a rough day for a lot of us.  Wishing us a better day tomorrow. G

[[Ha...]]

Hi buddies,

 

It's another day, and so far I don't feel quite as out of it as I did yesterday, although I'm still foggy and heavy headed today. 

Gingermint and Marwegs, I'm sorry you both also had bad days yesterday.  Thanks for coming on here to post and remind me that I'm not alone in going through this hell.

 

Sunshine, thank you for your encouraging words.

 

I think the scariest part of all this for me, besides the fact that I have to keep working full time and it's so hard to function, is the fear that I will never get better.  Logically I know that the fact that the memory issues and other cognitive problems started at exactly the same time as this phase of the  taper (I had started tapering months before but had been on a long hold before starting again) means they are probably related.  But given everything I know about benzos and memory impairment, I have a terrible fear that they have just caused dementia in me and my life as I know it is over.  I try not to dwell on these fears, and often I succeed pretty well in distracting myself, but when I have a day like yesterday, it's hard not to worry that this is it for me now, that I will never get better. 

 

Thanks for being there, and listening, buddies.

 

Haimona

[[Li...]]

Could someone please help me!  I am 66 yrs old and have been on benzodiazepines for 40 years.

Started @1.5 mg Xanax for 36 yrs. I was placed on clonazepam in 2014 after being admitted to a psyc ward, little did I know then that I was suffering tolerance withdrawal. I decided I had to get off this demon medication and the psychiatrist took me off too fast and I ended up in the hospital in withdrawal so bad I thought I would surely die. There they put me on 2mg of Ativan , I’ve been on it for a year, a year of pure torture. So now not only do I suffer from tolerance withdrawal but also inter dose withdrawal. Could someone please help me with a withdrawal plan? What is best? Dry cut? It’s such a tiny pill. Water titration from what I’ve read seems to be the answer but I get lost in the math part.

I take 2 mg, but dose 4 times a day, meaning I take 0.5 mg in the morning, 0.5mg at noon, .025 about 3 in the afternoon to help with the inter dose withdrawal, another .25 about 6 pm and 0.5mg at bedtime.

I just need some direction please.

[[Li...]]

Is there no one to help me? Please

[[Ko...]]

I'm sorry you're suffering so, Lilywhite. 

 

The 2 mg Ativan you're taking is the equivalent of 20 mg valium, according to the Ashton Manual.  By contrast, the 1.5 mg clonazepam you were on was equavalent to 30 mg valium.  (Ditto for the 1.5 mg xanax you used for many years.)

 

In other words, you're taking only 2/3 (in valium equivalents) of what you were accustomed to taking for decades (and you said you were in tolerance even back then). 

 

I'm sure you want to get off of benzos and never look back, but it will be hard to do starting from a place of instability and using a short acting benzo like Ativan. 

 

Is there any chance at all you can find a doctor who will work with you to stabilize using a longer acting benzo at a slightly higher valium-equivalent dose, and then taper from that point? 

 

[[Ju...]]

Hello Lily,

 

I am so sorry for all you have been through.  If I am ready this correctly you have been on 2mg Ativan for a year.  And it looks like you have brought up Valium with your doctor and he rejected that idea. Valium change over is not for everyone. I have posted a link below if you want to read more on that. Many have been successful tapering from Ativan. 

 

Benzodiazepine Withdrawal - Valium Substitution (The Ashton Method)

http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-withdrawal-methods/substitution/

 

They are tiny pills and the reason many choose to to the DLMT.  I use a liquid solutions prepared for me by a compound pharmacy so I am not much help with making your own solutions..  There are many here that can help with making your own solutions.

Here are a few posts ofa few buddies that gives some of the math and instructions.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=44903.msg3096903#msg3096903

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=44903.msg3120190#msg3120190

 

 

JuJuBi