Tapering off Ativan Support Thread

[[Gi...]]

Hi all,

 

Checking in with everyone. Good to see some new people. You have definitely come to the right place.

 

I am down to 0.076mg (7.6cc of my DLMT).

 

I find that when I'm encountering any stress, it seems magnified or worse than it used to. Anyone else experience this?

 

Thanks!

LD

 

LD,

Yes, I've noticed the same thing with myself.  The little stressors that were easily managed now are very anxiety provoking.  Congratulations on being so low in dose.  It won't be long now until your benzo free celebration. G

[[te...]]

Ld,

 

I also have that happen to me , I try my hardest to stay away from things that do that to me.

I am just about at the same dose as you and will be done soon.

Lisa

[[...]]

Good work Lisa (Tech)!  Good work LD!  Good work Everyone!  You're amazing!

 

I'm looking forward to celebrating the end of your tapers.  I'm already celebrating your moment by moment journeys- your patience, perseverance and resilience.  I'm celebrating your self-compassion and the strong body mind awareness to go as slowly as needed, taking good care of yourselves along the way. 

 

I truly believe, as my wonderful holistic M.D. says, optimal health comes from the real basics of hydration, loving ourselves, sleeping well, healthy food choices, avoidance of sugar and being out in nature and moving our bodies. These basics might not save us from withdrawal symptoms but I truly believe can ease the taper process.

 

I'm here on the other side after a 19 month taper to say recovery will happen and this poison will release it's grip on you. Withdrawal symptoms will end.  Be kind to yourselves.  Let me know if I can help you in any way.

 

Luey

[[su...]]

Thank you for the encouragement; it’s so very appreciated.  I am in awe of how far some of you have come.  This stuff is a nightmare and I congratulate all of you. 

 

Holding right now on approx. .19 or .20 mg a day (.07/.06/.07 give or take little as dry cutting my best right now), and I plan to stabilize before moving down any. 

Muddled through Monday after the rough weekend and managed to get some sleep that night (almost 6 hours straight—rejoiced as haven’t had consecutively more than a few hours in weeks). Woke next day with that awful headache (muscle tension everywhere) and only mild nausea.  Thankfully my husband could stay home from work that day to help out with our 2 year old.  Tuesday wasn’t stellar by any means but doable given the weekend; however, sleep was elusive again last night.  Fits and bursts of sleep (maybe 30-45 minutes, so no REM stage at all).  Thankfully no extreme shaking and dry heaving like the weekend, but had feelings of heat move through back and arms along with that horrible neck/head tension—and of course the obnoxious friend anxiety. 

 

QUESTIONS for moving forward.  I have 9 pills left of the .5mg Lorazepam (along with my pieces that were already cut up for today and tomorrow)—which is what my Dr. gave me when I began taper so that I had pills at the smallest dose.  I also still have 5 of the 1 mg. pills left (and a couple pieces) from the bottle that the ER gave me.  What is the best way to move forward using what I have left to make calculations?  JuJuB gave me that link for the Direct Daily Taper Plan to make the calculations, but I do not have 10 pills of either dose.  I AM terrible at mathematical thinking and the cognitive fog that I’ve been in since starting all this doesn’t help things.  Freaking out a little at prospect of trying to fill out that chart/calculator as I don’t know if I’m doing things correctly.  My husband will help me but needs a rough idea of how to proceed. 

 

Also, I ordered a scale and it’s supposed to arrive today (eager to ensure cuts are even/more accurate moving forward).  It’s the Gemini-20.  How are the dry cutters doing it with the scale?  Are you crushing first to powder?  If so, then what?  I want to make sure to properly utilize what pills I have left and make the correct cuts. 

 

I know I’ll have more questions, so please bear with me as I navigate things.

 

Best,

Sunshine

 

[[su...]]

Glad you’re here for support, sunshine. You’re in good hands in this group and getting great help. I have just one suggestion that may help: to think about avoiding caffeine/coffee/chocolate while you go through this process. Chamomile tea helped me relax when I was tapering.

 

Hang in there, you’ll be okay.  Benzodiazepine withdrawal often manifests itself in fairly intense body anxiety.  Par for the course but scary, I know.

 

 

Thank you!  I have been avoiding caffeine, namely coffee and tea since this began, but have been craving chocolate milk much like when I was pregnant.  I'm not a milk drinker either to begin with, so I have been rolling with it if I crave it (maybe 8-12 oz).  I read somewhere (?) that chamomile tea can increase GABA and to possibly avoid, so I have been staying away from that--which of course makes my chocolate milk drinking sound like I'm being counterproductive anyways. 

[[Ju...]]

Sunshine

 

I did not weigh at those low doses but I will give this my best shot. Since those scales only go out 3 decimals it gets a bit tough this low.

I would start by weighing those pieces you have already cut for you next few day doses and see what they actually do weigh. This may give you a better idea of how much you are actually getting in medicine mg. at this point.

 

The 10 pills is to get an average pill weight. They do not always weigh the same.  You can do the same with the pills you have. If you want to use the chart You could weigh 5 pills and take that weight times 2 to estimate the weight of 10 pills.

 

Here was my calculation-My .5mg pills weighed .061 grams. I calculated the mg of medicine in each gram of weight.  In my case a mg of lorazepam weighed .122g.  If my dose is .07mg of medicine that should weigh about .009grams (rounding up)

.07 x .122=.00854 (.009)

 

I am hoping another dry cutter like Beauty, KYR or Powerball can give some tips.  They all dry cut although Beauty did switch to DMLT at those low doses. 

 

I hope this was at least somewhat helpful.

 

JuJuBi

 

 

LD-I absolutely get the stress being amplified.  I had "a stresser" yesterday that would have not phased me normally cause an uptick in stress and anxiety. 

 

[Guest [ba...]]

Hi!

 

It's fine to take an average weight with fewer than 10 pills.  Weigh some number of intact pills and divide that weight by the number of pills you weighed.  Five or nine pills will be fine to determine the average pill weight.

 

I would use up all of the 1 mg pills and crumbs before starting on the 0.5 mg pills.  Trying to mix them to achieve a particular dose is possible, but more math-intensive.  That calculation should only come up one time anyway (when you finish off the last few crumbs of the 1.0 mg pills and have to start on the 0.5 mg pills). 

 

I'm happy to help when that calculation comes up.  I'm happy to help with whatever calculations you need help with.  I ran an analytical lab for some years.  This stuff is pretty easy for me.

 

 

[[Ha...]]

You guys (JuJuBi and Badsocref) are actually making me hopeful that I could do the crushing and weighing.  Previously I just got bogged down in the math and gave up each time.  Sunshine, thank you for asking the question. 

 

I'm (hopefully) about two more weeks away out of an eight-week journey down to being fully at .312 mg, down from .375.  Maybe when I get fully down to my lower dose, I will try weighing.  I'm sure this has been answered a few times, but I plead benzo brain:  What scale(s) do people like to use for this?

 

Thanks,

 

Haimona

[Guest [ba...]]

Seriously, if you've ever measured and crushed oregano or basil and sautéed it in oil/butter, you've done more than most tapering regimes require.  Bread making is much more difficult than pill weighing.  Cooking eggs in the morning takes more time/effort than weighing a dose out.

 

I usually recommend one of those little Gemini-20 scales from Amazon.  For $23 they do an admirable job.  Weighing gets a little less accurate when pill fragment weights get down under 0.010 g, but there are strategies for weighing accurately even at the end of a taper.

[[Ma...]]

Hello everyone, welcome to Drecky and Sunshine... this is a warm and supportive place to be, you will do great as you continue to taper!

 

Sunshine, I myself started with the pill cutting and weighing. At first, I found it was a huge difference from eyeballing the dosage, but as I got lower in dose, I found it a bit harder to get accurate numbers for the daily micro tapering that I wanted to do. Everyone's experience is different, and many people have very successfully tapered the entire way using just a scale. I bought the Gem20 scale off of Amazon, and it did the trick.

 

I have recently switched to a compounded liquid, after seeing JuJuBi and Luey have great success switching over. It took about 6 days to feel more stable, but I feel completely different using the liquid than I did the sublingual pills. I think it may be that it's so accurate, and easier to reduce by tiny amounts each day.

 

I wish you peace and great success whichever route you decide to take.

 

 

 

[[su...]]

Hi!

 

It's fine to take an average weight with fewer than 10 pills.  Weigh some number of intact pills and divide that weight by the number of pills you weighed.  Five or nine pills will be fine to determine the average pill weight.

 

I would use up all of the 1 mg pills and crumbs before starting on the 0.5 mg pills.  Trying to mix them to achieve a particular dose is possible, but more math-intensive.  That calculation should only come up one time anyway (when you finish off the last few crumbs of the 1.0 mg pills and have to start on the 0.5 mg pills). 

 

I'm happy to help when that calculation comes up.  I'm happy to help with whatever calculations you need help with.  I ran an analytical lab for some years.  This stuff is pretty easy for me.

 

 

I would gladly take the help!  This has been so overwhelming, and when not feeling well, it adds to the mix.  Okay, so the Gemini scale came today and managed a moment to play around with it, calibrate and such.  These are the numbers I got:

 

The 9 pills of Lorazepam .5 mg that I have weighed in at .539, so divided by 9 that is .05988889 (assuming round up to .06?)

The 5 pills of Lorazepam 1 mg that I have weighed in at .595 so divided by 5 that is .119

 

Additionally, I weighed the fragments that I had already cut for tomorrow's dose (they were from a .5 pill that I cut earlier in week).  These weighed .008, .007, and .006 so I am coming in around .021 mg a day (give or take since I started this cut a few days ago and have been estimating at the cutting, so I have no idea if today's cuts were exact on .21 but I sure did my damndest to make them look even before getting the scale).   

 

Now for calculating moving forward, how do I do this?  How do I get accurate weights once I start going lower than this? 

 

As for where I am right now, I left message for Psych Dr. and he admitted that I probably tapered too fast, but then he really didn't have a way forward other than to say I can slow down.  He said he had already put my file in storage (assuming he wasn't going to see me again), and he's having surgery so will be out of office until middle of September.  I asked about liquid Ativan to help with getting the smaller cuts and he said he'd put a prescription in for me at the pharmacy but it's a commercial grade (I don't know what this means) and I would have to do all the dilutions with distilled water (?).  Again, no help and I feel completely dropped.  He was rushed on the call and completely unhelpful.  I made an appointment for Friday with my primary Dr. who originally put me on the benzo to see if he can help me move forward so I can be under some sort of medical supervision/guidance. 

 

Signing off overwhelmed,

 

Sunshine 

 

 

[Guest [ba...]]

0.021 g (21 mg) of crumbs from a 0.5 mg tab weighing 0.060 g yields a dose of 0.175 mg.

 

0.021 / 0.060 x 0.5 = 0.175

 

The 1.0 mg pills are essentially double the weight of the 0.5 mg pills, so you won't need to change calculations going forward.  You'd use 0.021 mg of the 0.5 mg pills.  You could also use 0.021 mg of the 1.0 mg pills. 

 

Easy peasy.

[[su...]]

Uncontrollable shaking and extreme involuntary muscle movements all night again. It’s been almost every night now since weekend so sleep deprivation is compounding things.  Warm sensations throughout muscles too and I feel extremely weak today.  Nausea in waves with dry heaving Is this a “normal” thing that I have to push through?  Husband and I are struggling with how to manage and if ER is good idea.  He thinks not, to just meet with primary Dr tomorrow.  I’m just scared at this point as don’t know how much more I can handle.   

[[Li...]]

Hello, sunshine75.  I’m so sorry you are suffering. 

 

I wanted to respond to your earlier post about liquid Ativan.  That’s great news that your physician prescribed this.  Are you in the US?  If so, then your liquid Ativan is the 2mg/mL Lorazepam Intensol Oral Concentrate USP.

 

If you decide to go this route, we can help you develop a procedure for diluting and using the Intensol that is in keeping with the manufacturer’s instructions for proper use of an Intensol. Also please be advised that this particular Intensol requires refrigeration and protection from light.

 

PS  I’m guessing your doctor’s reference to “commercial grade” means “designed for a large market” ... as in FDA-approved, professionally manufactured, and available “off the shelf.”

[[Ju...]]

Sunshine,

 

I am so sorry you are struggling.  You have reduced your doses very very quickly. What you describe are all withdrawal symptoms I experienced or read from others.  I know in your state it can be hard to focus and read but this helped me at least understand what was happening. What is happening in your brain

 

You can go back to a dose where you felt better, stabilize then taper much slower, or continue to hold here and try to stabilize then continue.  You tapered in 3 weeks what would be 14 weeks or longer by Ashton standards. Your brain is trying to catch up and heal. There are no easy answers or ways to speed up this process or healing. I know there is an urge to just get off this drug but the only healer is time in this process.

 

Reinstating or updosing is not failure.  Many of us here have including myself, LD and Marwegs and others. Some CTed like badsocref.  None of us can decide for you what to do. This is not linear. This is your taper and we are all so different.

 

JuJuBi

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[be...]]

Hi Sunshine,

  I’m just catching up with your story. You are badly destabilized right now, and that’s not surprising given your taper speed. I feel for you, as I’ve been right where you are...as have many others here on the thread. Please let us know what your primary doc advises today. We are all here for you.

 

Beauty

[[su...]]

Hello, sunshine75.  I’m so sorry you are suffering. 

 

I wanted to respond to your earlier post about liquid Ativan.  That’s great news that your physician prescribed this.  Are you in the US?  If so, then your liquid Ativan is the 2mg/mL Lorazepam Intensol Oral Concentrate USP.

 

If you decide to go this route, we can help you develop a procedure for diluting and using the Intensol that is in keeping with the manufacturer’s instructions for proper use of an Intensol. Also please be advised that this particular Intensol requires refrigeration and protection from light.

 

PS  I’m guessing your doctor’s reference to “commercial grade” means “designed for a large market” ... as in FDA-approved, professionally manufactured, and available “off the shelf.”

 

Thank you so much for the response.  Yes, that is the liquid Ativan (and yes in US) that the psychiatrist prescribed.  My husband went and picked it up today and spoke with pharmacist.  Obviously because the prescriber (psychiatrist) did not give any sort of compounding order specific for me, the pharmacist couldn't tell my husband the procedure/dosage for me.  We have the liquid Ativan now though, just have no idea how to go from here.  I have that appointment with my primary Dr. tomorrow and I am hoping upon hope that he will be willing to get on same page as me, to help develop taper plan moving forward.  For now I will try to stabilize on the dry pills at current dose. 

 

Best,

 

Sunshine

[[su...]]

Sunshine,

 

I am so sorry you are struggling.  You have reduced your doses very very quickly. What you describe are all withdrawal symptoms I experienced or read from others.  I know in your state it can be hard to focus and read but this helped me at least understand what was happening. What is happening in your brain

 

You can go back to a dose where you felt better, stabilize then taper much slower, or continue to hold here and try to stabilize then continue.  You tapered in 3 weeks what would be 14 weeks or longer by Ashton standards. Your brain is trying to catch up and heal. There are no easy answers or ways to speed up this process or healing. I know there is an urge to just get off this drug but the only healer is time in this process.

 

Reinstating or updosing is not failure.  Many of us here have including myself, LD and Marwegs and others. Some CTed like badsocref.  None of us can decide for you what to do. This is not linear. This is your taper and we are all so different.

 

JuJuBi

 

JuJuBi, thank you for this.  Even though I understand the individuality of this process, it just helps so much to know others are going through/have been through it to sympathize, offer advice, and just be supportive.  Those dark moments are beyond difficult, so sometimes just getting ideas or hearing about the different experiences is enough to push forward.  I gleaned that link and it does help put the logical back into perspective rather than the emotional/physical what I am feeling part be front and center. 

 

Best,

 

Sunshine

 

[[su...]]

Hi Sunshine,

  I’m just catching up with your story. You are badly destabilized right now, and that’s not surprising given your taper speed. I feel for you, as I’ve been right where you are...as have many others here on the thread. Please let us know what your primary doc advises today. We are all here for you.

 

Beauty

 

Beauty,

 

Thank you.  I appreciate this and am thankful for finding this site/group.  I will pass on what Dr. says tomorrow when we meet.  My husband is coming with to the appointment (I can't drive right now anyways) to help advocate and be my rock as well. 

 

Best,

 

Sunshine

[[su...]]

0.021 g (21 mg) of crumbs from a 0.5 mg tab weighing 0.060 g yields a dose of 0.175 mg.

 

0.021 / 0.060 x 0.5 = 0.175

 

The 1.0 mg pills are essentially double the weight of the 0.5 mg pills, so you won't need to change calculations going forward.  You'd use 0.021 mg of the 0.5 mg pills.  You could also use 0.021 mg of the 1.0 mg pills. 

 

Easy peasy.

 

Ok, so then I was actually lower in my taper than I thought?  I assumed I was at .20 but that is just the weight of the pills then?  Sorry for my inexperience here.

 

 

 

And thank you!

 

Sunshine

[[Ma...]]

Hi Sunshine - wondering how the doctor's appointment went?

 

Yes, a good thing to remember is that pill weight in mg does not equal the dosage in mg.

It's very hard to keep everything sorted with our benzo brains, but you can do it.... and we are here to help if you need it.

 

How's everyone else doing? I had a wave start yesterday, milder tonight, and hoping tomorrow I wake up to more progress. The liquid has made a difference, and hoping as my body settles into this new reduction pattern, and that I become like Luey with little to no symptoms until the end.... hoping and praying for that!

[[su...]]

Marwegs,

 

I really hope you wake up mild today!  Thank you for checking in on me. 

 

My Dr. appointment was not good.  He was dismissive of my symptoms and again insistent that it was my "anxiety" and that I was having panic attacks, that it was crazy that I would be having withdrawals when I am down to such little fragments of a pill.  He was the one who originally insisted I should take the benzo consecutively, that there was no worry in taking them that way, so it was not much of a surprise but a huge letdown nonetheless. 

 

My husband and I both went through how I NEVER had any of the symptoms prior to taking this other than the dizziness and chest palpitations that started with that run I went on, and the panic attack I had before starting was self limiting, brought on by the anxiety of what was unknown about what was going on with my body.  There was never a time during the course of the benzo (whether 1st the Xanax or next the Lorazepam) when I felt good, not until I began the taper and the cardiologist began the beta blocker did my body start to feel a little more stable.  My husband brought in materials he received from a military counterpart who helps veterans through PTSD get off benzos, and the material even stated that a taper should commence even after only 2 weeks of use, and to reduce slow (not as slow as Ashton, but 10-25% reductions every 1-2 weeks).  My Dr. was still resistant saying but those are high doses that need tapering.  It was like talking to a brick wall. 

 

We also asked for help with the liquid Ativan the psychiatrist did prescribe but didn't give instructions on how to dilute/use for the taper.  My Dr. did try to look up some things but said it was out of his league, the chemistry, the calculations, that he had no guidance on how to go down so slow.  His advice was to take more Lorazepam if I was feeling so sick and then continue taper, but really, he felt I was a point where there should not be tapering anymore, thereby withdrawals was a nonstarter. 

 

So, I'm on my own right now. Can't  go back to psychiatrist for advice moving forward as he is out for a surgical procedure until middle of September--and I lost my vote in confidence in him when he left me the way he did with no guidance.  I have managed to get some sleep last 2 nights, even if somewhat broken, but the extreme shaking and dry heaving isn't happening throughout the night, so I take that as a blessing.  Days have been really rough though.  Nausea waves have been brutal along with the headaches/muscle pain.  The sensations of heat moving through my body seems to be happening more too.  I've been relying on ice packs/heating pads for muscle tightness/sucking on mints/eating smoothies/showers/meditating when I am relaxed enough and having my husband or oldest daughter hold me when things get really bad.  Sometimes I want to cry so bad as a release, but then can't as nothing is there like it's being blocked. 

 

I'm still holding on dose, too afraid to go back up as I've gone this far already.  I'll have questions again soon but I'm just trying to regroup emotionally right now from the Dr visit yesterday, trying to figure out a plan moving forward. 

 

Best,

 

Sunshine

[[Ju...]]

Hello on this Saturday.

Things are going well and symptoms are still at bay. Thankful for that. I will continue on down. I had a few stressors this past week but made it through pretty well. Still exercising, swimming and started painting again. Haven’t done that in years. Took Friday off work. Had my grandson over. Teaching him to paint with acrylics on canvas. He did very very well. Overall it was a wonderful day.

 

Tech-You have to be getting so close. I will be celebrating your day of freedom. You have been slow and steady in this. I admire your spirit to keep pushing through. Amazing what you have accomplished.

 

LD-you are doing AMAZING! Getting close too. We will be celebrating yours too before we know it.

 

Bibsjo-You are smart in your Super slow.  Listening to the signs your body gives you. So glad you have a benzo wise doctor. That is a gem of a find.

 

Marwegs-Glad to hear the liquid taper is making such a difference.  It was a game changer for a lot of us. Sorry to hear about the wave. Don’t be afraid to slow down to ease symptoms. I am a believer in a calm CNS is a Healing CNS.

 

Ginger-I hope the cut weigh tips can help you in your taper! So grateful for the knowledge on BB. Where would we be without it?

Libertas and badsocref thank you for your help!

 

Sunshine- So sorry the doc appointment did not go as hoped.  I know it hurts but many have had that same experience. I my case my doctor is just my prescriber and I actually prefer to control my own taper.  It is good that you are getting at least some sleep. I know that fear of losing ground and not wanting to go backwards.  We all so want off these drugs but acceptance of the process is so key. I do hope you get some relief in holding. Many have updosed even just a bit to stabilize before taper. As many know I am a proponent of a calmer CNS is a healing CNS.

No matter which way you go dry cut or liquid there is help here. Libertas has strong knowledge with the liquid you were prescribed and can help with dilution and dosing.  Badsocref is great at the dry cut calcs and happy to help.

 

Wishing everyone a peaceful weekend.

 

JuJuBi

 

[[te...]]

Hello to everyone , group is so big I can’t keep up .

Glad everyone is able to help each other .

Thank you JuJuBi . I am glad you are also doing well .

Sunshine don’t be fooled you are correct in telling the doctor you didn’t have any

Of these symptoms . I had so many problems of which you describe .

My doctor who prescribed is a cardiologist and just said it’s anxiety take more .

Some people are very sensitive to medication and we are .

If you hold and slow your taper you will feel better , I am living proof I would have

Never imagine this could happen to me but without this group I would have never made it .

Also things got much better for me when I went to a liquid dose .

I take a 0.5 mg pill and use 1 ml of 100 percent proof vodka and add 49 mls of water . Then just pull my dose from that . I have been cutting for a year I am currently at .07 mls

Listen to your body

Lisa

[[Ma...]]

Good morning buddies,

 

Sunshine, remember, you know what you know: meaning, you know that this drug has created these symptoms. You know that many many thousands of people experience the same, and that you do not need to prove it to your GP. Your don’t need the affirmation of a GP who admittedly cannot even work with you on how to taper off of the liquid. I also have GP that blames everything on anxiety, and had no idea how to prescribe a compound liquid or create a safe schedule. But that’s why you’re here. And you will get through this.

 

Tech and JuJuBi are correct: you will do fine once you stabilize. It will just take time, even if you have to updose a tiny bit (that is up to you). I have found that pharmacists are a wealth of knowledge regarding Benzos, so if you desire to get real life support, you may want to try calling around to see who would be willing to counsel you. My pharmacist has been a huge saving grace.

 

What you describe of needing to cry, but nothing happening... that is a benzo brain, reacting to being paralyzed, and trying to heal! I experience that all of the time. And I find that when I can cry, I let it all out, as it is such a healthy release.

 

This is your safe place. You may feel alone because your doctor has shown he cannot support you, but you are not alone. You don’t have to figure it all out - we can help.

 

Peace and mercy to you this day....

💗