Tapering table

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last night my aim was quarter to 10 so took pills at 9:15 I took a shower and scooted in bed.  Lights out at 9:45.

 

Saturday night my aim was 9:30 do I took pills at 8:45 read until 9:30 went to bed.  Husband was in bed at 11 and I was fast asleep. 

 

This the .5 worked 1/2 to and hour so at least by 1:00

You seem to be letting the clock decide when to turn off the lights.

You must let you body decide when it is time to sleep.

You must read until your are so tired, you feel like you cannot hold your eyes open.  Then, slip under the covers and to stop your mind from thinking, count your breaths.

There are hundreds of ways to count your breath.

My favorite is to breath in slowly for a count of 9, exhale normally, count that as one breath cycle.

Try to do this 30 or more times.  I typically fall asleep before reaching 30 cycles.

[[Ch...]]

my husband will be in bed if I go later.  Can I read in a chair and then get up and go to sleep.

 

Can I use meletonin

Can I use geletin

I wish busbar was still on the market, it it was good for you I'd trust it

 

So we are still going to go ahead with the liquid taper, correct?  We are not going to dry cut any other .5mg except for the morning pill, right?

Does that mean we will liquid taper at 200 ML for 200 days?

 

Thanks Bob.

 

 

 

 

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my husband will be in bed if I go later.  Can I read in a chair and then get up and go to sleep.

 

Can I use meletonin

Can I use geletin

I wish busbar was still on the market, it it was good for you I'd trust it

 

So we are still going to go ahead with the liquid taper, correct?  We are not going to dry cut any other .5mg except for the morning pill, right?

Does that mean we will liquid taper at 200 ML for 200 days?

 

Thanks Bob.

Instead of melatonin, why don't your try magnesium glycinate from this link:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00013YZ1Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Correct.  Taper off the 0.5mg morning pill first.

As for the liquid taper, 200 mL over 200 days is ok to try but before we decide, let us see how you do with the morning taper.  We might want to go slower or faster than 200 days.

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I want to add that the magnesium is just something that worked on me you need to do whatever you think is best.

[[Ch...]]

I have mag glycenate.  It knocks my husband out but does not do the same for me.  May I'll take two.  You are ok with reading in the chair since husband will be in bed.  He snores to but that does not typically keep me up

[[Ka...]]

Charlene, perhaps you could look up mag glycenate yourself and see if two is okay?  And maybe it would benefit you to make your own decision as to whether or not you sleep in the chair?  Ownership of our recovery is part of the process and participating in the research and decision-making regarding our taper process makes us feel better about our recovery when we get there. 

[[he...]]

my husband will be in bed if I go later.  Can I read in a chair and then get up and go to sleep.

 

Can I use meletonin

Can I use geletin

I wish busbar was still on the market, it it was good for you I'd trust it

 

So we are still going to go ahead with the liquid taper, correct?  We are not going to dry cut any other .5mg except for the morning pill, right?

Does that mean we will liquid taper at 200 ML for 200 days?

 

Thanks Bob.

Instead of melatonin, why don't your try magnesium glycinate from this link:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00013YZ1Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Correct.  Taper off the 0.5mg morning pill first.

As for the liquid taper, 200 mL over 200 days is ok to try but before we decide, let us see how you do with the morning taper.  We might want to go slower or faster than 200 days.

 

Remind me again, Bob, you tapered off your morning dose first because of sleep issues, and then you tackled your nighttime dose? Did you have any interdose withdrawal on clonazepam? And it was generic, right? I considered doing that in the beginning so I could get one dose completely done, but then I started thinking I was going to get uneven serum levels and decided to start tapering both doses concurrently. I'd love to be done with the morning dose. It messes me up so much. I get no discernable symptoms from the bedtime dose. I can always count on a certain part of the morning to be when symptoms begin after taking my morning dose.

 

I asked this here, because I thought it might be helpful for Charlene to hear as well.

 

Thank you!

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I never had any significant problem with only taking my drug at bed or maybe a second dose when waking up in the middle of the night.  No interdose withdrawal issues - at least nothing I could detect.  Remember, when tapering, you always have some withdrawal feelings.

 

For me, both generic and brand name Klonopin had a long enough half life.

 

For me, taking around bedtime significantly helped my sleep.  If I had a good night of sleep, I could tolerate any daytime symptoms.

[[Ch...]]

Charlene, perhaps you could look up mag glycenate yourself and see if two is okay?  And maybe it would benefit you to make your own decision as to whether or not you sleep in the chair?  Ownership of our recovery is part of the process and participating in the research and decision-making regarding our taper process makes us feel better about our recovery when we get there. 

Sounds good Kate.  I know I'm being a pest

[[Ch...]]

Hi Bob,

I've very anxious to start liquid titrating on March 20th and again thank you for all the help. But are we concerned about the below which I found here on benzo buddies?  (Below mentions that Klonapin does not distribute evenly in water.  Thank you Charlene.  Hope you are doing well.  You don't have to read the entire thing but I saw this in another post too.  Are there a lot of people that liquid taper klonopin?

 

Quote from: BennieAndTheJets on December 21, 2021, 02:17:06 pm

Hi , I have tried Titration before using just water as the base.  As anyone that has tried this will know, the trouble is that Klonapin tends to not titrate into the water.  It wants to form a small band of crystals on the bottom of a glass.

 

I am thinking of jello possibly as a titration medium.  Jello will hold the particles in place and should do the trick.  The problem is Klonapin again may gather in one spot making this a moot point.

 

I wasn't aware that the active ingredient of Klonapin was not spread evenly throughout the pill.  That would make this a very hard procedure to do successfully.  I was thinking of designing a device that could do micro cutting, but this information makes me think that is not the right way.

 

It's just an idea, but as I set at .5mg / day for the past 2 years and with the pandemic on, it's hard to determine whether it's a good time to give this a try or not.

 

I wish you all a safe and happy holiday!

 

Bennie

 

Hello Bennie,

A couple thoughts.

 

First using water as a suspension vehicle is in my experience and as you discovered not the best option for deconstructed clonazepam tablets. However, clonazepam crystals within the tablets are not visibly distinguishable from other non water-soluble tablet excipients like magnesium stearate or talc. I think the precipitate in a pure water suspension of clonazepam is likely a combination of ingredients and not a visible indicator of pure clonazepam's behavior within the mixture.

 

Also, I am not aware of any evidence that supports the claim that the medicine in a tablet of clonazepam is unevenly distributed. Of course, to some minute degree everything everywhere is unevenly distributed, but for the purposes of dosing and tablet divisions I think the contents of clonazepam tablets that have a score line meet very high standards for the even distribution of their active drug substance.

 

I'm not sure what is meant by a "device that could do micro cutting", but IME the challenge facing taking tablet divisions smaller than 1/4 is that the tablet binder does not seem to hold together an accurate portion of material and instead crumbles. To get around this, one option is that tablets can be rendered into a fine powder and incorporated with a filler such as microcrystalline cellulose to allow reasonably accurate "divisions" by a cheap milligram scale or by volumetric measurements (tsp, Tbs, etc).

 

I personally find liquid far easier that dry powder to measure and titrate for tablet divisions less than 1/4 in size. I use ethanol as a solvent to produce a liquid that has served me well in my DMT, despite my sensitivity to both alcohol and clonazepam reductions; my approach is described in my tapering notes, linked in my signature.

 

An alternative to consider is using a proprietary suspension vehicle such as OraPlus or VersaFree. I would not bother with Jello or gelatin personally but if you wanted to try something simpler: I think methycellulose, corn-starch (such as in Jello pudding), xanthan gum, and vegetable glycerin each have the potential to form a suspension superior to water alone. A note, there is such a thing as "too thick" with suspensions; I think the persistence of bubbles beyond several seconds is indicative of overly thick liquids and is problematic when trying to take accurate volumetric measurements (such as via an oral syringe).

 

I suggest looking into pharmacy compounding, and perhaps considering a liquid/tablet hybrid to make the best use of both accurate tablet divisions (IMO no less than 1/4) and a well-tolerated form of liquid.

 

I hope this helps. 

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Well sure we are.

You have two alternatives:

(1) Stir the water very well before drinking and then after drinking the jar dry, rinse extra water into it and drink that water too.  Since you will be drinking all of you mixture by the morning, you will be like most people and be fine.

(2) Add a tiny bit of Vodka to the benzo to break it down before adding the water.

Good luck

Bob

[[Ch...]]

Well sure we are.

You have two alternatives:

(1) Stir the water very well before drinking and then after drinking the jar dry, rinse extra water into it and drink that water too.  Since you will be drinking all of you mixture by the morning, you will be like most people and be fine.

(2) Add a tiny bit of Vodka to the benzo to break it down before adding the water.

Good luck

Bob

 

Oh I'm so glad we are concerned.  I'm hoping not this week but next week maybe around March 17th I can reach out to you about equipment and how we decide to taper.  I don't know what I'm doing and I'm sure looking forward to starting this on March 20th.  I read some of your posts and know how busy you are.  I appreciate all the help you've given me. 

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I will help you when you are ready.

[[Ch...]]

Thank you Bob!

[[Ch...]]

Hi Bob,

Just anxious to get my equipment for the 2 Klonopin mg titration.  Would this be good?

 

1 ML syringe (let me know if you like a certain brand)

10 or 20 ML syringe (which one would you get)

Measuring cup up to at least 300-400 ML

1 jar to drink out of (I only need one, right, I don't need to transfer to another glass for my wake-up drink, right?

and Just want to confirm that you when I ask will be prepping the titration schedule and I'd be able to see ML taken and the conversion to MG etc. I'm not sure I could help with the schedule but would be willing to if you needed me. I'm so appreciated of your help you have no idea.  I hope I can get through this, tomorrow I take my last 1/4 of the fifth pill, it's been going alright.    I read a little bit about your story and I'm glad you are healing. Thank you again.   

 

 

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You should get the 20mL syringe as it will also do 10 (just fill half way).

Get the 1mL for sure.

Just one jar.

Let me know when you are ready to begin.

[[Ch...]]

You should get the 20mL syringe as it will also do 10 (just fill half way).

Get the 1mL for sure.

Just one jar.

Let me know when you are ready to begin.

 

I will plan on reaching out to you Friday the 18th if that works.  Have a great weekend. 

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Sure.  I will be out of town all that day but hope to be hope by evening.

[[Ch...]]

Sorry I just saw this, If Saturday or another day is better for you, let me know.  Thanks.

[[...]]

Charlene,

 

Just in case I am out of town this weekend, please print out these instructions so you know what to do:

 

For your 300 day taper:

1 - Just before bed, put the 2mg of drug into the jar.

2 - If you are ok with alcohol, then drip a few drops of Vodka over the pills to help them break down.  Just enough to do the job

3 - Fill the jar with 300 mL of water

4 - 30 minutes before bed, stir it up good and remove 1mL of mixture and throw it away

5 - Stir it again and drink 1/2 of it.

6 - Read until your eyes want to close on their own. 

7 - Put your head on the pillow and count your breaths.  Do not think about anything, just keep counting your breaths.

8 - Anytime you wake up during the night, stir and drink another 1/4 of the mixture

9 - If any is left in the morning, drink it and also rinse the jar and drink the rinse water

 

Day 2 of your taper is the same except you remove 2mL in step 4

Day 3 of your taper is the same except you remove 3mL in step 4

and so on for 300 days.

 

PS - I currently think Magnesium Taurate works better than Magnesium Glycinate - you might try it.  I take 2 pills of Magnesium Taurate two hours before bed.  Here is a link https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0045CFN24/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

 

Bob

[[Ch...]]

Bob,

Thank you so much.  At some point, will I get the schedule so I know where I'm at MG wise and how fast I am tapering.  When I did my dry scale method I reduced 10% every 7 days of the previous dose (not the original dose).  So I think that means for the water titration as I go down, I'm not slowing down in tapering (this is more linear) as I go down. I'm nervous since I've been on this 2X before, but I'm assuming we could make the tapering slower as I went down. 

 

Another question, should I put the 2 MG pills in about 1/2 hour before I take in order to break up.  I doubt I'll use the vodka.  Thanks for the tip on magnesium.

 

One more question if you look at this link the person says that 1 drop = .1 mg.  (a little after the middle of the video).  Is this true?  Just wondering in case I have trouble. 

 

 

Thank you so much

 

 

[[...]]

Bob,

Thank you so much.  At some point, will I get the schedule so I know where I'm at MG wise and how fast I am tapering.  When I did my dry scale method I reduced 10% every 7 days of the previous dose (not the original dose).  So I think that means for the water titration as I go down, I'm not slowing down in tapering (this is more linear) as I go down. I'm nervous since I've been on this 2X before, but I'm assuming we could make the tapering slower as I went down. 

 

Another question, should I put the 2 MG pills in about 1/2 hour before I take in order to break up.  I doubt I'll use the vodka.  Thanks for the tip on magnesium.

 

One more question if you look at this link the person says that 1 drop = .1 mg.  (a little after the middle of the video).  Is this true?  Just wondering in case I have trouble. 

 

 

Thank you so much

Each mL you remove from the 300mL, takes out 0.0067 mg of drug.  BUT PLEASE, try to stop thinking about the numbers and do not try to figure out percentages.  The whole reason we designed this taper for you was so you do not THINK.  Thinking creates anxiety.  Anxiety makes withdrawal symptoms.

 

Just follow the instructions and trust because you are doing a very mild and slow taper.  Do not try to compute anything else about it.

 

One drop is close to 0.1mg - it depends on the size of the drop.  You should use your syringes to measure, do not use drops.

 

You need to experiment to see how long it takes to dissolve your benzo.  It depend on if you use alcohol.  If you stir, it should break down fast.  You may see little pieces the water.  Those are filler material.  Do not worry about them.

 

[[Ch...]]

Bob,

Thank you so much.  At some point, will I get the schedule so I know where I'm at MG wise and how fast I am tapering.  When I did my dry scale method I reduced 10% every 7 days of the previous dose (not the original dose).  So I think that means for the water titration as I go down, I'm not slowing down in tapering (this is more linear) as I go down. I'm nervous since I've been on this 2X before, but I'm assuming we could make the tapering slower as I went down. 

 

Another question, should I put the 2 MG pills in about 1/2 hour before I take in order to break up.  I doubt I'll use the vodka.  Thanks for the tip on magnesium.

 

One more question if you look at this link the person says that 1 drop = .1 mg.  (a little after the middle of the video).  Is this true?  Just wondering in case I have trouble. 

 

 

Thank you so much

Each mL you remove from the 300mL, takes out 0.0067 mg of drug.  BUT PLEASE, try to stop thinking about the numbers and do not try to figure out percentages.  The whole reason we designed this taper for you was so you do not THINK.  Thinking creates anxiety.  Anxiety makes withdrawal symptoms.

 

Just follow the instructions and trust because you are doing a very mild and slow taper.  Do not try to compute anything else about it.

 

One drop is close to 0.1mg - it depends on the size of the drop.  You should use your syringes to measure, do not use drops.

 

You need to experiment to see how long it takes to dissolve your benzo.  It depend on if you use alcohol.  If you stir, it should break down fast.  You may see little pieces the water.  Those are filler material.  Do not worry about them.

 

Thank you very much again Bob.  Appreciate all the work you did for me.  I hope these 300 days go fast and I appreciate any prayers you are willing to pray for me.  Enjoy the rest of the week. 

[[Li...]]

One more question if you look at this link the person says that 1 drop = .1 mg.  (a little after the middle of the video).  Is this true?  Just wondering in case I have trouble. 

 

 

The individual in the video is referring to Rivotril drops — the 2.5mg/mL oral solution of clonazepam manufactured by Roche that is available in some countries (not the US).  The solution is measured using a graduated dropper supplied with the medicine; each drop equals 0.1mg of clonazepam.

 

Given that the do-it-yourself liquid you will be making is a suspension, might I encourage you to:

 

(1) Shake the liquid vigorously before you measure your reduction as well as before you ingest the remaining portions during the night and/or the following morning.

 

(2) Measure your reduction as quickly as possible before undissolved particles/drug molecules fall out of suspension.

[[Ch...]]

One more question if you look at this link the person says that 1 drop = .1 mg.  (a little after the middle of the video).  Is this true?  Just wondering in case I have trouble. 

 

 

The individual in the video is referring to Rivotril drops — the 2.5mg/mL oral solution of clonazepam manufactured by Roche that is available in some countries (not the US).  The solution is measured using a graduated dropper supplied with the medicine; each drop equals 0.1mg of clonazepam.

 

Given that the do-it-yourself liquid you will be making is a suspension, might I encourage you to:

 

(1) Shake the liquid vigorously before you measure your reduction as well as before you ingest the remaining portions during the night and/or the following morning.

 

(2) Measure your reduction as quickly as possible before undissolved particles/drug molecules fall out of suspension.

 

Thanks Libertas, appreciate it.