Tapering table

[[Ch...]]

Sure, when you to 1.5 mg, you can switch to 1.5mg pills.

Then instead of adding 3 pills, you just add one.

I think symptoms very - you might just have anxiety about changing to a liquid.

 

Thanks Bob.  I did not realize they had 1.5 MG pills.  I think I will stick with my .5MG pills and put three in.  Appreciate the help. 

[[Pa...]]

 

 

Thanks Bob.  I did not realize they had 1.5 MG pills.  I think I will stick with my .5MG pills and put three in.  Appreciate the help.

 

I'm not sure that size pill is available in the US.

 

[[...]]

This was my error.

 

When Charlene wrote "once I hit 1.5 Mg, I can kind of start over with the table and only ask my doc for a prescription of 1.5 MG, correct?"

 

I assumed she was getting 1.5mg pills. 

 

My bad.

 

 

 

[[Ch...]]

This was my error.

 

When Charlene wrote "once I hit 1.5 Mg, I can kind of start over with the table and only ask my doc for a prescription of 1.5 MG, correct?"

 

I assumed she was getting 1.5mg pills. 

 

My bad.

 

No worries....So you know how you need to rinse the jar after your last dose.... I still see little specs in the water, even if I rinse our the jar several times.  Should I be concerned?  Thank you. 

 

[[Ch...]]

This was my error.

 

When Charlene wrote "once I hit 1.5 Mg, I can kind of start over with the table and only ask my doc for a prescription of 1.5 MG, correct?"

 

I assumed she was getting 1.5mg pills. 

 

My bad.

 

No worries....So you know how you need to rinse the jar after your last dose.... I still see little specs in the water, even if I rinse our the jar several times.  Should I be concerned?  Thank you.

 

Reading up more on this solution thing.... if I used vodka I understand I would use I ML on each pill.  would I then on use 296 ML of water?  sorry I'm such a pain.  And if I'm uncomfortable with vodka what else could I use to make sure the solution is evenly disbursed thank you!

[[Ch...]]

This was my error.

 

When Charlene wrote "once I hit 1.5 Mg, I can kind of start over with the table and only ask my doc for a prescription of 1.5 MG, correct?"

 

I assumed she was getting 1.5mg pills. 

 

My bad.

 

No worries....So you know how you need to rinse the jar after your last dose.... I still see little specs in the water, even if I rinse our the jar several times.  Should I be concerned?  Thank you.

 

Reading up more on this solution thing.... if I used vodka I understand I would use I ML on each pill.  would I then on use 296 ML of water?  sorry I'm such a pain.  And if I'm uncomfortable with vodka what else could I use to make sure the solution is evenly disbursed thank you!

OK this is it. Maybe I only put one or two pills in the water and I swallow two pills. That way I don't need as much vodka. I can't think straight right now, maybe that takes too long to taper ug I'm sorry,  just worried mostly because I've been on klonopin before and it scares me that I may be in tolerance or kindeling. 

[[...]]

You idea of taking 2 pills directly and then only using 1 pill in the water depends...

 

How are you currently drinking the mixture? For example, do you drink 1/2 before bed and then take a slip every time you wake up.  Tell us exactly how you drink the mixture.  How many times do you wake up?

[[Ch...]]

Since Sunday, I take the full mixture before I go to bed. I squirm around a little bit but haven't woken up.  I'm concerned about the liquid being evenly dispersed and I'm taking out the proper dose.  I even read the vodka might not do that.  ug, I'm sorry that I'm such a pain with this.

 

Could a couple MG of Vodka hurt you?  I'm on cymbalta.  I have not drank a drop of alcohol since 2012. (Not because I have a problem with alcohol but because of all this benzo stuff). 

[[...]]

Dear Charlene,

 

You must learn to recognize and celebrate success.

 

You said you drink the full mixture before bed and then you sleep without waking up all night.

 

I wake up every 90 minutes and often suffer trying to fall back to sleep.  I expected you would drink 1/2 before bed and then slip on it each time you wake up BUT YOU ARE STAYING ASLEEP!!!!!  You found a good process.  Go ahead a drink it all at bed if it works for you.

 

You are in a good place.  If you can get enough rest, you can handle daytime issues.

 

You are overthinking the impact of those particles (I think they are filler material). 

 

It is up to you about trying a few drops of vodka but if you are sleeping ok, why change anything? 

[[Ch...]]

Dear Charlene,

 

You must learn to recognize and celebrate success.

 

You said you drink the full mixture before bed and then you sleep without waking up all night.

 

I wake up every 90 minutes and often suffer trying to fall back to sleep.  I expected you would drink 1/2 before bed and then slip on it each time you wake up BUT YOU ARE STAYING ASLEEP!!!!!  You found a good process.  Go ahead a drink it all at bed if it works for you.

 

You are in a good place.  If you can get enough rest, you can handle daytime issues.

 

You are overthinking the impact of those particles (I think they are filler material). 

 

It is up to you about trying a few drops of vodka but if you are sleeping ok, why change anything?

 

Ok Bob, thank you for the encouragement.  I appreciate it and appreciate you.  I hope you can sleep better soon.  I understand you feel healed for the most part, good for you. 

[[Li...]]

Given that you are taking your entire dose at one time, your idea of using a combination of regular tablets and homebrew liquid is a sound risk-mitigation strategy.

 

I doubt that adding a tiny amount of off-the-shelf vodka will hurt you.  However, please be aware that we simply do not know if adding vodka to a regular tablet fully and completely dissolves all of the clonazepam molecules embedded in the tablet. Consequently, if you decide to try this, you would be wise to regard the resulting tablet/vodka/water mixture as a suspension with unknown properties not a true solution.

 

We do know (via experimentation) that adding a small amount of vodka to a clonazepam tablet will not dissolve all of the particles like the ones you are seeing in your current water/tablet homebrew. These particles may include functional water-insoluble excipients as well as undissolved clonazepam molecules.  In other words, these particles are not just ‘fillers’ and ‘binders’ that ‘don’t matter.’ Consequently, it will still be important to (1) shake the tablet/vodka/water mixture vigorously before using it and (2) measure your reduction (or dose) quickly before the particles fall out of suspension (water is a very poor suspending vehicle due to its low viscosity).

[[Ch...]]

Given that you are taking your entire dose at one time, your idea of using a combination of regular tablets and homebrew liquid is a sound risk-mitigation strategy.

 

I doubt that adding a tiny amount of off-the-shelf vodka will hurt you.  However, please be aware that we simply do not know if adding vodka to a regular tablet fully and completely dissolves all of the clonazepam molecules embedded in the tablet. Consequently, if you decide to try this, you would be wise to regard the resulting tablet/vodka/water mixture as a suspension with unknown properties not a true solution.

 

We do know (via experimentation) that adding a small amount of vodka to a clonazepam tablet will not dissolve all of the particles like the ones you are seeing in your current water/tablet homebrew. These particles may include functional water-insoluble excipients as well as undissolved clonazepam molecules.  In other words, these particles are not just ‘fillers’ and ‘binders’ that ‘don’t matter.’ Consequently, it will still be important to (1) shake the tablet/vodka/water mixture vigorously before using it and (2) measure your reduction (or dose) quickly before the particles fall out of suspension (water is a very poor suspending vehicle due to its low viscosity).

 

Thanks Libertas for your concern with this.  I did talk to a compounding pharmacist that did believe the particles were fillers.  I understand though if this was tested via experimentation that that might not be true.  And I appreciate the importance you are putting on shaking the mixture vigorously.  Out of curiosity how would you handle this liquid tapering.  I heard you can put half water half oral plus (it will still be a suspension), but the pharmacist did not believe that was needed.

[[Li...]]

You’re welcome, Charlene.  As you are learning, there are more unknowns than knowns regarding homebrew liquids. Regrettably, not all compounding pharmacists have the expertise required to compound benzodiazepines (or to make informed comments about do-it-yourself compounds).  For example, one would expect a competent compounding pharmacist to be aware that clonazepam has a challenging solubility profile compared to other commonly prescribed benzodiazepines. One would also expect a competent compounding pharmacist to be aware of functional excipients (to learn more, see citation below).

 

Citation:

Excipient selection for compounded pharmaceutical capsules: they’re only fillers, right?

https://www.medisca.net/pdf/published-articles/AJP%20Aug%2017%20-%20Practice%20Update%20-%20Excipient%20selection%20for%20compounded%20pharmaceutical%20capsules-%20they're%20just%20fillers%20right.pdf

[[Ch...]]

It turned out for me that this sort of liquid taper worked very well but the lack of math was the best part for me!

 

Kate08

 

Hi Kate - would you mind if I asked you about your experience in tapering since you were on for quite a while?

 

Sure Charlene, I'll share.  I used the water method that Bob7 outlined for you.  Math isn't my strength (or my love) so knowing I only had to remember how much water to remove worked great for me.  I kept a journal so I knew where I was each day in terms of dose reductions and how I was doing.  And the withdrawl symptoms along the way were tolerable.   

 

Glad all worked for you

Kate did you use vodka?

[[Ka...]]

No Charlene, I used water only.

[[Ch...]]

No Charlene, I used water only.

 

Thank you and you can make it a day ahead of time, right? 

[[Ka...]]

No Charlene, I used water only.

 

Thank you and you can make it a day ahead of time, right?

 

I don't know if it is recommended but I did make it ahead of time and put it in the frig.  You just have to be sure to shake it or stir it very well and dose it immediately after shaking because the particles settle out quickly.

[[Ch...]]

No Charlene, I used water only.

 

Thank you and you can make it a day ahead of time, right?

 

I don't know if it is recommended but I did make it ahead of time and put it in the frig.  You just have to be sure to shake it or stir it very well and dose it immediately after shaking because the particles settle out quickly.

Thank you

[[Ch...]]

Dear Charlene,

 

You must learn to recognize and celebrate success.

 

You said you drink the full mixture before bed and then you sleep without waking up all night.

 

I wake up every 90 minutes and often suffer trying to fall back to sleep.  I expected you would drink 1/2 before bed and then slip on it each time you wake up BUT YOU ARE STAYING ASLEEP!!!!!  You found a good process.  Go ahead a drink it all at bed if it works for you.

 

You are in a good place.  If you can get enough rest, you can handle daytime issues.

 

You are overthinking the impact of those particles (I think they are filler material). 

 

It is up to you about trying a few drops of vodka but if you are sleeping ok, why change anything?

 

Ok Bob, thank you for the encouragement.  I appreciate it and appreciate you.  I hope you can sleep better soon.  I understand you feel healed for the most part, good for you. 

 

Hi Bob, So now I'm thinking I want to daily take 2ML until I get to 1.5 MG (that's .0134 MG) and would be about 20% of the total 2MG for a month and would take me 37 days to do it.  I figured since I just got finished cutting .5 MG recently and did not have big problems this might be fine.  I just wanted to get your opinion on whether you thought that was aggressive, my guess is you will say listen to you body.  (tonight is my first night of actual tapering).  I hope you have a good weekend. 

[[...]]

I have talked to many people and found something in common.

 

Many times, people can taper fast at first and then later, they have to reduce more slowly.

 

It seems like old reductions add up and hit you all at once.

 

So you could try to go faster, but there is a risk that these large reductions will hit you all at once.

[[Ch...]]

I have talked to many people and found something in common.

 

Many times, people can taper fast at first and then later, they have to reduce more slowly.

 

It seems like old reductions add up and hit you all at once.

 

So you could try to go faster, but there is a risk that these large reductions will hit you all at once.

ok, thank you:)

[[Ch...]]

I have talked to many people and found something in common.

 

Many times, people can taper fast at first and then later, they have to reduce more slowly.

 

It seems like old reductions add up and hit you all at once.

 

So you could try to go faster, but there is a risk that these large reductions will hit you all at once.

ok, thank you:)

I'm hoping to stop bothering you soon.  So the table I created shows that at I will reach 1.5 MG on day 49 (so the end of the 1st pill is gone).  Then I will only be dropping in the solution 3 .5 MG pills.  But doesn't that mean my solution amount should change?  Basing it on the trips T calculator would I want to change my solution to 200 ML and that 1 ML would then be equivelent to .0075 MG.  And then when I only have 2 .5 MG pills (to equal 1 Mg) do I change the water to 150 ML and that gets me back to .0067 in MGs if I'm taking out 1 ML/day.  And then when I'm tapering just the one .5MG pill is my solution 50MG where 1 ML equals .01 in MG?  I guess I got confused when I was reading up this. Or perhaps this isn't the way you would do it. Thank you!

[[...]]

Charlene,

 

With all these changes, you are worrying me, if you or I make a mistake.

 

But I will try to help you.

 

First, you must share exactly what you are doing.

 

Confirm are are doing this:

Mixture is 300 mL of water and four 0.5 mg pills.

Each day remove 1.5 mL of water and drink the rest.

You have been doing this for 5 days.

 

If all that is correct, then if you wanted to only use 3 pills instead of 4, you would do this:

On day 50, you can make this change:

Mix 225 mg of water with three pills

Reduce 1 mL per day for 225 days.

[[Ch...]]

Charlene,

 

With all these changes, you are worrying me, if you or I make a mistake.

 

But I will try to help you.

 

First, you must share exactly what you are doing.

 

Confirm are are doing this:

Mixture is 300 mL of water and four 0.5 mg pills.

Each day remove 1.5 mL of water and drink the rest.

You have been doing this for 5 days.

 

If all that is correct, then if you wanted to only use 3 pills instead of 4, you would do this:

On day 50, you can make this change:

Mix 225 mg of water with three pills

Reduce 1 mL per day for 225 days.

Yes, I confirm what you say except I've only been doing since this past Friday so three days (need to change my notes).  And I think I get it.  1.5 MG of klonopin dropped in 225 Water: 1 ML will equal the .0067MG. So if once I get to 1 MG of klonopin (2 .5 pills) I could start over but only use 150 ML of water, correct?  I'm assuming you are fine with me dropping the pill number (going from 4 pills, then to 3, then to 2) rather than just using 4 pills throughout the entire taper, but let me know if you disagree.  Thank you. 

[[...]]

As long as you keep your solutions so it is 0.0067 mg per mL you will be fine.

 

Your concern about far future taper changes when you are only 5 days into this taper reveal you spend time worrying about the future.

 

I am a victim of this behavior too and I can tell you, it drains your brain and results in more anxiety symptoms.

 

Try very hard to just stick to what you are dong for the next 4 weeks. 

 

I will be here for you to adjust your taper as needed.

 

Try to be at peace.

 

Bob