Jordan Peterson's year of 'absolute hell': Professor forced to retreat....

[[...]]

There’s a difference between speculating about a public figure and kicking someone when they’re down. But whatever. From what I’ve seen on here, some just can’t help themselves. I’m done fighting it. Have at it. You have the moral high ground, right?

[[Da...]]

Last summer I crashed and I went into a realm that I didn't know existed. I know most of you know that realm, or worse.  Had I had the money, I would have gone to Russia. I remember visiting five psychiatrists and finally this one I have now, who only partially gets it, told me to hold for a long time until stable. I whatsapped him once a month as I didn't stabilize at all, telling him I wanted to go to a detox facility. He said no. Thank God he said no. Had I had Peterson's money, I definitely would've gone to Russia or anywhere in the world, as I was in utter terror and my ability to make decisions was seriously compromised. Sometimes, very few, not being rich is better.

 

Wow, I can't believe no one commented on this or responded to it. I would have gone to Russia too if I had the money. Thank god I didn't. If you have money it is sort of a race between finding the right answer (Ashton Manual) and doing something really stupid (like cold turkeying). Even if you find the right answer, you might not recognize it as being the right answer, because most people are not experts on psychopharmacology and harm reduction. To many people, tapering for months or years would be a pretty unsatisfactory solution and they may just dismiss it, especially if they are suffering excruciating torture as Peterson was.

 

Pretty odd how people on this site forget what it is like to go through something like this when they just went through it. He was experiencing perpetual psychological and physical torture. Anyone would crack under that pressure. It's not really a matter of if, but when.

 

As for his daughter's antidepressant use, she had serious health problems growing up. She had to have ankle and hip replacements due to rheumatoid arthritis.  I think it is pretty safe to say she was depressed and would have tried anything, like many people. It's not like doctors have much variety in their thinking on the issue either.

[[to...]]

It could very well be that JP is not experiencing withdrawal symptoms anymore.  Remember, according to Dr. Malcolm Lader, one of the leading benzo withdrawal researchers, one third of long term users experience no symptoms at all upon cessation.  Another one third experience mild to moderate symptoms ranging from a couple weeks to a couple months.  It is the third group, our group, which we are assuming he is a part of, and at this point, we don't have any evidence of that.  It could very well be that it was pneumonia and other health issues that complicated his taper from the medication and that is why he chose a rapid detox.  Remember, there are plenty of people who do rapid detox who are just fine a week or two later. 

[[id...]]

It could very well be that JP is not experiencing withdrawal symptoms anymore.  Remember, according to Dr. Malcolm Lader, one of the leading benzo withdrawal researchers, one third of long term users experience no symptoms at all upon cessation.  Another one third experience mild to moderate symptoms ranging from a couple weeks to a couple months.  It is the third group, our group, which we are assuming he is a part of, and at this point, we don't have any evidence of that.  It could very well be that it was pneumonia and other health issues that complicated his taper from the medication and that is why he chose a rapid detox.  Remember, there are plenty of people who do rapid detox who are just fine a week or two later.

 

According to Mikhaila, he's been struggling since summer, so at least 6 months. He attempted to stop several times, he attempted taper and micro-taper. He attempted detox. All of that way before pneumonia. Of course, in theory, it's possible that he miraculously got cured of wd in Russia, it's just not likely if he indeed had such a hard time with Klonopin for at least 6 months.

 

Especially, since he's so sensitive to begin with that a spoon of apple cider sends him into a month of panic attacks, impending doom and not sleeping at all for 25 days (his own words on Joe Rogan's podcast).

[[va...]]

Thanks for the answer to my post dataguy. All of us who've known acute wd and knew nothing about BBs, would've gone to Mars if we had the money and the promise that they could "cure" us there.

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Absolutely agree, Val.  When in the thick of acute w/d, I would have given ANYTHING, including my own life, to end the torture and my family's.  Honestly, I even had hoped and wondered if there was such a thing as an induced coma while detoxing.  Whether this is gonna turn out good or bad, only time will tell like everything else but I do wish the best for him as a fellow sufferer and a human being. 

[[La...]]

Hey Data_Guy,

I was just wondering if JP clarified somewhere that Mikhaila has rheumatoid arthritis as opposed to osteoarthritis. In the video I watched, he only called it "arthritis", which could refer to either type. Just curious.

[[Fl...]]

Hey Data_Guy,

I was just wondering if JP clarified somewhere that Mikhaila has rheumatoid arthritis as opposed to osteoarthritis. In the video I watched, he only called it "arthritis", which could refer to either type. Just curious.

 

It's been awhile since I watched this but I'm sure everything you want to know is in this 2 hour interview- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_7688Zk6s

[[Fl...]]

Just had it playing in the background, she says its rheumatoid arthritis at around 8:00.

[[La...]]

Just had it playing in the background, she says its rheumatoid arthritis at around 8:00.

 

Thanks, FG! I was watching part of the Joe Rogan interview he did with JP, #1139. Just the last hour. Interesting. It helped me get a better picture of him, his dietary changes, etc.

[[va...]]

Absolutely agree, Val.  When in the thick of acute w/d, I would have given ANYTHING, including my own life, to end the torture and my family's.  Honestly, I even had hoped and wondered if there was such a thing as an induced coma while detoxing.  Whether this is gonna turn out good or bad, only time will tell like everything else but I do wish the best for him as a fellow sufferer and a human being.

 

Funny Mom of 7. Looking at your signature I see you discontinued a Ppi just before your crash. I discontinued pantoprazole last may and crashed in June. Was also tapering quite fast, and had just finished Lexapro taper. I think it all played a role, though being kindled is the worst factor.

 

Yes I agree. I strongly disagree with some of JPs ideas but I just see him as a brother who's suffering like we are. This makes us all the same. I hope he gets better and he helps the cause.

[[Da...]]

Hey Data_Guy,

I was just wondering if JP clarified somewhere that Mikhaila has rheumatoid arthritis as opposed to osteoarthritis. In the video I watched, he only called it "arthritis", which could refer to either type. Just curious.

 

Hi Lapis,

 

There is a video of her talking about her depression here. I think they mention the other health problems as well. Seems pretty unlikely her main problems were caused by psych drugs, but obviously she now feels that they didn't really help much either. Near the beginning she says when she was around 8 years old she would be afraid that someone would come into her house and murder her entire family, but leave her alive. I think she was first put on antidepressants when she was 10.

 

[[La...]]

Thanks for the info D_G and FG!

[[Da...]]

Thanks for the answer to my post dataguy. All of us who've known acute wd and knew nothing about BBs, would've gone to Mars if we had the money and the promise that they could "cure" us there.

 

No problem Val. That was a great post.

[[Fl...]]

Hi Lapis,

 

There is a video of her talking about her depression here. I think they mention the other health problems as well. Seems pretty unlikely her main problems were caused by psych drugs, but obviously she now feels that they didn't really help much either. Near the beginning she says when she was around 8 years old she would be afraid that someone would come into her house and murder her entire family, but leave her alive. I think she was first put on antidepressants when she was 10.

 

 

Of course this is all anecdotal but Mikhaila is a great example of someone who ended up having to take her healthcare into her own hands when the medical establishment failed her. In the recent RT interview she talks about he she no longer has faith in doctors because of this experience.

 

It is disturbing to me how dismissive BB's tend to be of her experience. If anyone should be able to relate to her situation it should be people like us. And the lesson isn't necessarily that there is one diet that is good and everything else is bad, it is that diet plays a HUGE role in health, there is a ton of misinformation about it floating around, and you simply cannot rely on regular doctors, nutritionists, "health authorities" or the government to steer you in the right direction.

 

We need to pay close attention to these stories of people who were able to resolve autoimmune and mental issues quickly and easily with simple lifestyle changes. I firmly believe that many of the health issues we face today as modern humans can be alleviated with some combination of diet and exercise, yet that is not what you will hear from most doctors. We have to take our healthcare into our own hands, and now that we have the internet we have the power to figure out things for ourselves.

[[La...]]

Hi FG,

I agree that diet and exercise can play huge roles in our health. Over the years, I've made numerous dietary changes based on things I've learned via the internet, books and other media. I don't think doctors receive much in the way of nutritional training, so it doesn't surprise me that they don't know much about it. As well, there's constant research in the field of nutrition, which can make it somewhat confusing when one is trying to find answers to certain questions. At any given time, there might not be definitive information about a given topic.

 

As an example, the recommended dietary needs for calcium change during one's lifetime, and may depend on whether or not one is at risk of osteoporosis -- especially for women "of a certain age"  . Well, just try to find definitive answers on this one! It varies from country to country, and supplements may be suggested or not, depending on which study you read. After my dizziness-induced fracture (Thanks, benzos!) a couple of years ago, I had to look that one up. Very confusing indeed! I consulted a registered dietitian too, and I shared a number of studies with her. She concurred that the results were, indeed, confusing, and suggested that the research is ongoing. In the end, I had to make my best judgment and do what I thought was best under the circumstances.

 

Suffice to say, human beings are omnivores, and we can survive on many different types of diets. It's not one size fits all. For example, what works for people in the north of Canada (where it's very cold) would not necessarily be appropriate for people living near the equator. Different climates, different growing regions, different physical needs.

 

As far as Mikhaila goes, I haven't watched all the videos shared here, so I'm not willing to weigh in either way. I'm glad she has found something that works well for her, though, since that's not always easy to do. It apparently took her quite awhile to figure it out, from what JP said in one of the videos I watched.

 

 

[[Fl...]]

As well, there's constant research in the field of nutrition, which can make it somewhat confusing when one is trying to find answers to certain questions. At any given time, there might not be definitive information about a given topic.

 

Even worse is the fact that much of the research that does exist is very poor quality epidemiology.

 

You would think that the advice that we are given is based on more than hypothesis that are generated based on food questionnaires, but it really isn't. So even when a study or even multiple studies try to claim that such and such is good for you or such and such is bad for you that information can't be taken at face value.

 

Just like with benzos, once you know how the whole process works you understand that it is imperative that you do your own research.

 

This fantastic article does a great job of explaining how it works- https://peterattiamd.com/is-red-meat-killing-us/

 

However, that’s not the real point I want to make.  I want to help you become thinkers rather than followers, at least on the topic of health sciences.  And that includes not being mindless followers of me or my ideas, of course. Being a critical thinker doesn’t mean you reject everything out there for the sake of being contrarian.  It means you question everything out there.  I failed to do this in medical school and residency.  I mindlessly accepted what I was taught about nutrition without ever looking at the data myself. 

 

A short 5 minute video that illustrates how crazy the system is-

 

 

[[La...]]

I think people should figure out what works for their own bodies. But there ARE objective measures that can reflect how we're well we're doing with our diets, e.g. blood work, blood pressure. If you try a diet for awhile, and the changes are going in the wrong direction, then it may be time to reassess.

 

For the calcium studies I mentioned above, the factors that were measured were bone density and number/type of fractures. A blood test for calcium won't show what's going on in the bones. And bone density changes over years, not weeks or months, so it's a lot harder to know whether one's diet is helpful or harmful.

 

In any case, our bodies need to get certain nutrients, and how we choose to get those things is up to us as individuals. Most people I know are constantly figuring out what works and what doesn't, as things can change with age and other factors. It's not like you do the same thing throughout your life.

 

 

[[Fi...]]

"In the recent RT interview she talks about he she no longer has faith in doctors because of this experience."

 

I wonder in whom she will place her faith when she needs her first hip revision?

[[Ca...]]

"In the recent RT interview she talks about he she no longer has faith in doctors because of this experience."

 

I wonder in whom she will place her faith when she needs her first hip revision?

Well I tend to trust a mechanic when they say I need a new tyre.. But I dont have the same faith when they say I need a new ECU..

 

Drs were great at post trauma management (physical), but as we moved on to the longer term medicine issues it got a bit hit n miss...

 

[[Fl...]]

I think people should figure out what works for their own bodies. But there ARE objective measures that can reflect how we're well we're doing with our diets, e.g. blood work, blood pressure. If you try a diet for awhile, and the changes are going in the wrong direction, then it may be time to reassess.

 

Yes and no.

 

Some people will swear that you will get scurvy if you don't eat enough fruits or vegetables, but it turns out that the body likely needs a lot less vitamin c when you eat fewer carbohydrates. So many things are dependent upon so many other things so it can be hard to make an objective assessment.

 

Or how about cholesterol. If your LDL goes up that doesn't necessarily mean that your risk of heart disease is going to go up, despite we are lead to believe. If you go to a "regular" doctor they might only look at this one number before determining that you are at a much higher risk for a heart attack, but there are more and more doctors out there who will tell you that LDL is only a small part of the overall picture. If two different doctors have a radically different opinion on something like this, that is far from an objective measure.

 

I'm not saying that all bloodwork numbers are useless, I am saying that some of these numbers are very likely to change depending on certain factors and the usefulness of some of them in general is debateable. It goes right back to my assertion that the science on all of this stuff isn't nearly as "settled" as we might believe it is.

 

[[Fi...]]

"In the recent RT interview she talks about he she no longer has faith in doctors because of this experience."

 

I wonder in whom she will place her faith when she needs her first hip revision?

Well I tend to trust a mechanic when they say I need a new tyre.. But I dont have the same faith when they say I need a new ECU..

 

Drs were great at post trauma management (physical), but as we moved on to the longer term medicine issues it got a bit hit n miss...

 

I am prone to place my trust in those that have demonstrated that their skills and knowledge serve me and others well. For the most part, I am fortunate that my doctors, mechanics and others have demonstrated their skills and expertise to me time after time. imo, it is a grave disservice, like the example set by Ms. Peterson, to lead people into mistrusting entire classes of ethical professionals to promote their own self serving interests. As I noted, I believe Ms. Peterson's lack of faith in doctors will be restored when she again faces debilitating pain and an inability to walk and that she will gladly accept the professional services of a good orthopedic surgeon to perform her 1st and subsequent hip revisions.

[[Fl...]]

Drs were great at post trauma management (physical), but as we moved on to the longer term medicine issues it got a bit hit n miss...

 

Yep, there's a HUGE difference between emergency care and the chronic disease management industry. I watched doctors save my dad's life when his heart stopped. That's real science based medicine and I have a ton of respect for that.

 

Throwing poorly tested drugs that no one knows how they really work at chronic health conditions willy nilly, many of which could easily be addressed by diet and lifestyle changes is borderline criminal.

[[Co...]]

"In the recent RT interview she talks about he she no longer has faith in doctors because of this experience."

 

I wonder in whom she will place her faith when she needs her first hip revision?

Well I tend to trust a mechanic when they say I need a new tyre.. But I dont have the same faith when they say I need a new ECU..

 

Drs were great at post trauma management (physical), but as we moved on to the longer term medicine issues it got a bit hit n miss...

 

I am prone to place my trust in those that have demonstrated that their skills and knowledge serve me and others well. For the most part, I am fortunate that my doctors, mechanics and others have demonstrated their skills and expertise to me time after time. imo, it is a grave disservice, like the example set by Ms. Peterson, to lead people into mistrusting entire classes of ethical professionals to promote their own self serving interests. As I noted, I believe Ms. Peterson's lack of faith in doctors will be restored when she again faces debilitating pain and an inability to walk and that she will gladly accept the professional services of a good orthopedic surgeon to perform her 1st and subsequent hip revisions.

 

I agree with all of that, except for one caveat: why anyone would attribute any particular import to Mikhaila Peterson's views of the medical profession is beyond me. This is not to say that she is not entitled to relay her experiences and express her views. But her views should be no more important than those of your average poster on the Net. But for some reason I do not fully understand, her views do seem to hold more significance for some.

 

The same largely goes for her father, Jordan, if/when he might express views about psychiatry and medicine. He's a psychologist, not a medical doctor. Because of his platform, there is indeed added prominence when he expresses his views. But are they any more reliable or important than anyone posting here? Except for the rather limited margins where his profession meets the other, I would suggest not. I am not totally dismissing what he might have to say (in advance him actually directly expressing any of his views). There are aspects of this where his expertise might offer some insights. But in the broad, he is just another individual who has suffered very significant problems from his (doctor prescribed) use of benzodiazepines. His journeying to Russia, the induced comma, etc., are only distractions and irrelevant to the core issues.

[[Ca...]]

"In the recent RT interview she talks about he she no longer has faith in doctors because of this experience."

 

I wonder in whom she will place her faith when she needs her first hip revision?

Well I tend to trust a mechanic when they say I need a new tyre.. But I dont have the same faith when they say I need a new ECU..

 

Drs were great at post trauma management (physical), but as we moved on to the longer term medicine issues it got a bit hit n miss...

 

I am prone to place my trust in those that have demonstrated that their skills and knowledge serve me and others well. For the most part, I am fortunate that my doctors, mechanics and others have demonstrated their skills and expertise to me time after time. imo, it is a grave disservice, like the example set by Ms. Peterson, to lead people into mistrusting entire classes of ethical professionals to promote their own self serving interests. As I noted, I believe Ms. Peterson's lack of faith in doctors will be restored when she again faces debilitating pain and an inability to walk and that she will gladly accept the professional services of a good orthopedic surgeon to perform her 1st and subsequent hip revisions.

Ahhh.. now demonstrated skills and acquired trust, thats the key isnt it..!! But sadly, too often it comes secondary.. -and perhaps hard earned and post entrapment..  Once the new “ECU” is in at great expense, yet the problems remain, well, we are kinda stuck with letting the same guys check the spark plugs...

At the risk of entering a game of pure speculation and endless rotation.. Perhaps, had she some broader thinking “professionals” in the first instance the replacements might have been avoided, thus negating the possible further need of their ongoing replacement services...??

 

Im certainly not saying good medical professionals dont exist, -I have had some great ones in most areas of medicine, but it does go both ways, so I can see how an individuals personal experience could be rather tainted following the realisation that they may have been led down the wrong garden path..

Then I wonder, is bringing awareness of her acquired views to others actually “self serving”...?? -I couldnt say for sure... -but I suspect we could apply this context of “self serving” pretty evenly across the board...

 

All said n done, I think the important thing is the freedom to follow our own beliefs, -though this may also mean accepting any consequences of the same..