This Is Life With Lisa Ling

[[su...]]

I wish Lisa would have gone and interviewed those women at about 3 minutes into the show she watched online on her computer and that the camera picked up.

 

She interview one. The other two are dead

 

I posted my last comment before I read this. I'm so sorry to hear this about the other two women. How heartbreaking. And to think this has been happening for what I thought was 50 years...but I have seen posts on BB indicating it's been 60 years.

 

Either way...what an absolute travesty. The amount of suffering that has obviously been hidden for so long.

 

Did they pass due to benzos?

[[Bl...]]

I wish Lisa would have gone and interviewed those women at about 3 minutes into the show she watched online on her computer and that the camera picked up.

 

She interview one. The other two are dead

 

I posted my last comment before I read this. I'm so sorry to hear this about the other two women. How heartbreaking. And to think this has been happening for what I thought was 50 years...but I have seen posts on BB indicating it's been 60 years.

 

Either way...what an absolute travesty. The amount of suffering that has obviously been hidden for so long.

 

Did they pass due to benzos?

 

I wonder how Jonathan's parents would respond to your question.

 

I'm not being contentious....because I have no idea personally.

 

But, the videos of....ALL four people...I'm including Jonathan, are extremely difficult to watch. Especially for anyone who has gone through this absolute nightmare that doesn't know when to stop.

 

Of course, as has been stated, Lucinda is still alive, thank goodness. But it's oh so hard watching her videos....it brings it all back when I was in the acute phase of benzo w/d...interdose w/d. :'(

 

 

[[Qu...]]

So many people die as a result of benzo withdrawal and it never get's recorded that way because there is no "evidence." Even notes and attestations from family are dismissed because the person is just presumed to be depressed or delusional. I'm not sure we actually have another chemical that routinely forces people to die this way by "virtue" of it's absence. That uniqueness means it goes unrecognized.

[[La...]]

One example of that, Quietquiet, is where a senior has been taking benzos for sleep, then has a fall and breaks a hip. That hip fracture may lead to him/her being bedridden, getting pneumonia and dying. Of course, that death would be caused by pneumonia, but the original cause would be the fall and fracture that was due to the benzo dizziness.

[[Bl...]]

So many people die as a result of benzo withdrawal and it never get's recorded that way because there is no "evidence." Even notes and attestations from family are dismissed because the person is just presumed to be depressed or delusional. I'm not sure we actually have another chemical that routinely forces people to die this way by "virtue" of it's absence. That uniqueness means it goes unrecognized.

 

Well put...and how sad to think about all those people in the past. :'(

 

How so very lonely they must have felt. It took me a year of absolute suffering before I connected the dots...thanks to the Internet I did a search on Ativan.

 

Within minutes I found the Ashton Manual. By this time, I had been through many tests/many Inpatient stays/many ER visits/and had seen many doctors....but no one/nothing pointed out that Ambien(Z-drug) and Ativan could be the culprits. I looked like I was an attention seeking, crazy person.

[[Ms...]]

I wish Lisa would have gone and interviewed those women at about 3 minutes into the show she watched online on her computer and that the camera picked up.

 

She interview one. The other two are dead

 

I posted my last comment before I read this. I'm so sorry to hear this about the other two women. How heartbreaking. And to think this has been happening for what I thought was 50 years...but I have seen posts on BB indicating it's been 60 years.

 

Either way...what an absolute travesty. The amount of suffering that has obviously been hidden for so long.

 

Did they pass due to benzos?

 

 

Yes both their stories are on the BIC site.

[[ba...]]

I believe this episode did exactly what the producers intended.  It was meant to shock. This was never meant to be a feel good story with a happy ending. The producers wisely stayed away from the erroneous platitudes that other news organizations have previously embraced to obfuscate and, yes, eradicate the contrarian position that benzodiazepines are indeed neurotoxins.

 

 

[[Qu...]]

Excellent point Lapis, it doesn't even have to be the most dire of endings as I was thinking.

[[Te...]]

So many people die as a result of benzo withdrawal and it never get's recorded that way because there is no "evidence." Even notes and attestations from family are dismissed because the person is just presumed to be depressed or delusional. I'm not sure we actually have another chemical that routinely forces people to die this way by "virtue" of it's absence. That uniqueness means it goes unrecognized.

 

Or how about the people who have had a c/t and go for weeks or months trying to deal with it? No autopsy would show that they had benzos in their system, would it? Or maybe trace amounts that wouldn't get any attention. We never know. The trail is lost. So, so sad.

[[ba...]]

So many people die as a result of benzo withdrawal and it never get's recorded that way because there is no "evidence." Even notes and attestations from family are dismissed because the person is just presumed to be depressed or delusional. I'm not sure we actually have another chemical that routinely forces people to die this way by "virtue" of it's absence. That uniqueness means it goes unrecognized.

 

Qq,

 

Excellent point. And the elderly are most at risk. Pump them full of drugs in forced compliance is negligence at best.

 

“I’m not sure we actually have another chemical that routinely forces people to die this way by “virtue” of its absence. This uniqueness means it goes unrecognized.”

 

I’m not sure I have seen a better elucidation, than above, on BenzoBuddies.

 

 

[[Te...]]

Exactly! :'(

[[Qu...]]

It's the unique qualities of Benzo withdrawal that should make it so clinically interesting. Anyone who took this condition seriously and examined its varied presentations, its duration, its waxing and waning, its capacity to return years later, its intensity, it's widely varied onset, its random lengths of recovery, etc etc etc, should just find many lifetimes worth of amazing things to study and discover about the brain. But instead it was decided that "everything was known." Eventually researchers are going to find that it's a rich vein for exploration, but that does not seem to be now.

[[Be...]]

Some people get worse the longer they're off.  I am.  What about the association between benzo's and dementia?  And there is one.

[[th...]]

It's the unique qualities of Benzo withdrawal that should make it so clinically interesting. Anyone who took this condition seriously and examined its varied presentations, its duration, its waxing and waning, its capacity to return years later, its intensity, it's widely varied onset, its random lengths of recovery, etc etc etc, should just find many lifetimes worth of amazing things to study and discover about the brain. But instead it was decided that "everything was known." Eventually researchers are going to find that it's a rich vein for exploration, but that does not seem to be now.

 

It's been known for a long time. BBC doc from 1987:

 

[[Mo...]]

 

It's been known for a long time. BBC doc from 1987:

 

 

This is from 1988....London ITV even went over to Pennsylvania to interview

the Pharma Boss of Wyers. ....watch his reaction.

 

[[Co...]]

Thank you for posting your viewpoints on the show.  I only wish it had come about 4 days prior to broadcast.  Had I read this, I more than likely, would not have requested folks to tune in.  I was unfamiliar with Lisa Ling's reporting, so did not realize this would be reported in a sensationalistic, or irresponsible fashion, as would seem to be suggested as "par for the course".  I thought I'd read from others here that Lisa Ling would handle it in a conscientious fashion.  I was cringing inside while viewing the show.  (Please posters, don't ask me why...read a whole post & you'll see in the quote contained in Colin's post that I've already given my views & feedback of those who did tune in, on pages 18 & 22.)  However, I do disagree with what I've highlighted, in purple.  This is not what doctors are doing w/people every day; hence, part of the issues which need addressing/correcting.  Some doctors are just stopping prescriptions (irresponsible/negligent); cutting people off or tapering much too rapidly, causing even larger problems.  What this program should have been addressing.  One of the largest cruxes of the whole crisis, which needed to have the brightest light shone on it.  - And, benzo-cooperative doctors seem to be almost mythical creatures. -

 

Also, encourage you/others to view Krissy's Q&A on youtube, in the event you haven't already.  The first 2 minutes contained the most critical information of all = broken central nervous system, which wasn't broadcast, at all. 

 

 

My comments was a generalisation about medicines, not benzodiazepines in particular. What I meant was that doctors ween off patients from medicines all the time. Less so with benzodiazepines, and even if they do, often not as slowly as may be required. But the basic premise or weening is completely ordinary to them. Start waving around four bottles of (unnamed) liquid in front of them, and it likely will just turn off some doctors to the wider message.

 

I have never known of a doctor who weans a patient off a drug. Every doctor that I've talked to goes way too fast, will tell the patient usually to "just stop taking the drug." I've been to many doctors. They also say to add another drug to counteract the previous drug's problems, so now the patient has two drugs to grapple with.

 

How do you know that? Seriously, is that a question you ask of every doctor you meet? Weening off will be a completely ordinary concept to every doctor, irrespective of how well they may or may not apply the practice to benzodiazepine withdrawal.

[[Bl...]]

I am thankful to Lisa Ling and everyone who was in and behind this show! It had me in tears, I was so moved by it and could relate to everything I was seeing and hearing! I am so grateful this topic has gotten some of the spotlight it so deserves! I feel so frustrated that this is such a hidden epidemic! I felt so proud when I told my doctor who specializes in Substance Use that I was going to taper based on information I learned on HERE!!! She did not teach me about DLMT, you all did! People need to know that there are supports like BB and the BIC, and that the people on here have a lot of knowledge from experience, often times more than some of the doctors they are dealing with. I think the show did just that, and if I knew nothing about benzos, I would have clearly understood the tolerance and physiological dependence piece. I would have walked away more aware of just how dangerous they can be. Those images of her dad and Jonathan, as well as the support groups and Krissy's story, all would have stuck with me! They still do in my head!! Very powerful! I am hopeful more will be covered by other sources of media in the future! For now, I am more than pleased!❤

[Guest [mu...]]

So many people die as a result of benzo withdrawal and it never get's recorded that way because there is no "evidence." Even notes and attestations from family are dismissed because the person is just presumed to be depressed or delusional. I'm not sure we actually have another chemical that routinely forces people to die this way by "virtue" of it's absence. That uniqueness means it goes unrecognized.

 

Qq,

 

Excellent point. And the elderly are most at risk. Pump them full of drugs in forced compliance is negligence at best.

 

“I’m not sure we actually have another chemical that routinely forces people to die this way by “virtue” of its absence. This uniqueness means it goes unrecognized.”

 

I’m not sure I have seen a better elucidation, than above, on BenzoBuddies.

 

Agreed, this is incredibly insightful.

 

[[Cu...]]

 

It's been known for a long time. BBC doc from 1987:

 

 

This is from 1988....London ITV even went over to Pennsylvania to interview

the Pharma Boss of Wyers. ....watch his reaction.

 

 

Thank you for posting this link.  So abhorrent that there were efforts to stop this all the way back to 1988.  I can only surmise they were hushed by the pharmaceuticals &, possibly, doctors as well.  Surprised those doctors even answered the newspeople w/out clamming up in order to retain counsel.  Not as litigious in 1988 or not as litigious in UK?  Maybe, a combination.  Perhaps 20/20 should do a piece.  I admit: I don't typically watch news programming.  TV is one means of only entertainment these days.  So, I'm not sure they'd be more thorough, or, maybe Dateline (?)  Again, before anyone jumps on me, I don't know if their documentaries are more sensationalized or not.

 

I will probably include this youtube link, along w/the BIC P.A. link to those who I'd requested view show, as I already sent them Krissy's Q&A, which was only on youtube...all of which are more informative/educational than the show as an aid in helping to educate particularly regarding time/length of taper & post-withdrawal sxs/why I, personally, have been absent from life/family & friend functions over the last 2 years.  What I'd been hopeful the show would do, w/medical professionals (not enough of them on show) backing up what I've been repeatedly explaining.  I will hold out hope for the "As Prescribed" documentary, which I've read is in post-production, from the w-bad.org website.  Though I don't know how much anyone I know will continue viewing, after this program, which they did tune into, for me & it didn't hit on the most important aspects.  (My earlier posts address why.  Found on pg. 18 & 22.  It's my opinion & I'm not explaining my reasons any further.  I'm not questioning others' opinions.  I realize everyone's sensitivities are heightened, but some here are being incendiary w/their posts.)

https://w-bad.org/documentaries/

 

There seem to be some here who are affiliated with BIC.  So, these are questions for them, as I'm not seeing from the program or the P.A. (Physician Assistant) take-away from the documentary (which was excellent, btw) about *benzo's prescribed for pain management:

 

        -  Is the BIC aware?  How come not in the BIC P.A. take-away follow-up on youtube?

        -  Why wasn't this P.A. on the show?  Wrapping up her commentary, she says "This Is The Story".  How accurate.

        -  Why weren't any of the doctors on the board of BIC interviewed/on the program?  (Or, were they & declined to appear on-air?)

        -  Is the BIC aware of that Cook Report from 1988? 

 

*This is also crucially important to be addressed to distinguish that this is not solely a mental healthcare crises.  I feel it's very important b/c the danger involved in presenting as such, for some of the general public, they may think "Oh, these weak people; unable to deal w/stress/anxiety w/out turning to a pill for a quick-fix", therein, in those minds, placing blame (whether or not misguided) equally on patients w/doctors/big pharma.  That needs to be addressed so new patients in a pain situation, do not think they're being given a prescription for a less dangerous pain reliever than an opioid, & enter into this completely unaware, when benzo's are a parallel monster & perhaps, even worse.

 

Are there any statistics on that re: BIC Anonymous Survey run in 2018?   

 

If you are unable to answer, please provide BIC contact where I may ask these questions &/or PM me w/contact information (particular person).  Thank you for your time & attention.

 

 

 

 

[[ra...]]

Hello my buddies,

 

I hope you are all doing as well as you an be under the circumstances.  I have been alternating between functional and busy, and too sick to do a damn thing.  Today is the latter.  I will live.

 

I had recorded the special on my DVR and just watched it this morning.  I thought it was really well done.  It showed a worst case, and a middle case, and a good doctor's point of view.  Anyone who saw it and is taking a benzo is now thinking about it for sure.  Equally importantly, it might stop some people from going down the path.

 

Quiet, we do not know each other.  When I come here, I spend most of my time on the protracated board.  But you are sooooooooo right about so much to study.  I am an MIT trained engineer, and I have refocused my life on neuroscience, and am dedicating 100% of my life to it.  I hope my sanity holds as I taper.  So far its a mixed bag, but it was a mixed bag before a started cutting, so if it stays a mixed bag, I can hang in there.  I have a pretty good neurologist with whom I am working, and it might take a few years, but our goal is to really and truly fix this, as in not fear a flu shot or an antibiotic 5 years after a person is clean.  I don't know if we can do it, but we are going to try.

 

Maybe Lisa Ling needs a "Part II" to bring to light the neurological cause, and motivate people with more resources than I have to work on the solution.

 

All I can do now is taper, research, and self experiment.  Maybe in 3 years we will have a permanent cure, or maybe not, but I can tell you I am 100% certain I am asking the right questions.

 

IMHO, it was a good show.

 

Ramcon1

[[Po...]]

Ram - thank you!

[[Te...]]

Thank you for posting your viewpoints on the show.  I only wish it had come about 4 days prior to broadcast.  Had I read this, I more than likely, would not have requested folks to tune in.  I was unfamiliar with Lisa Ling's reporting, so did not realize this would be reported in a sensationalistic, or irresponsible fashion, as would seem to be suggested as "par for the course".  I thought I'd read from others here that Lisa Ling would handle it in a conscientious fashion.  I was cringing inside while viewing the show.  (Please posters, don't ask me why...read a whole post & you'll see in the quote contained in Colin's post that I've already given my views & feedback of those who did tune in, on pages 18 & 22.)  However, I do disagree with what I've highlighted, in purple.  This is not what doctors are doing w/people every day; hence, part of the issues which need addressing/correcting.  Some doctors are just stopping prescriptions (irresponsible/negligent); cutting people off or tapering much too rapidly, causing even larger problems.  What this program should have been addressing.  One of the largest cruxes of the whole crisis, which needed to have the brightest light shone on it.  - And, benzo-cooperative doctors seem to be almost mythical creatures. -

 

Also, encourage you/others to view Krissy's Q&A on youtube, in the event you haven't already.  The first 2 minutes contained the most critical information of all = broken central nervous system, which wasn't broadcast, at all. 

 

 

My comments was a generalisation about medicines, not benzodiazepines in particular. What I meant was that doctors ween off patients from medicines all the time. Less so with benzodiazepines, and even if they do, often not as slowly as may be required. But the basic premise or weening is completely ordinary to them. Start waving around four bottles of (unnamed) liquid in front of them, and it likely will just turn off some doctors to the wider message.

 

I have never known of a doctor who weans a patient off a drug. Every doctor that I've talked to goes way too fast, will tell the patient usually to "just stop taking the drug." I've been to many doctors. They also say to add another drug to counteract the previous drug's problems, so now the patient has two drugs to grapple with.

 

How do you know that? Seriously, is that a question you ask of every doctor you meet? Weening off will be a completely ordinary concept to every doctor, irrespective of how well they may or may not apply the practice to benzodiazepine withdrawal.

 

I'm talking about the doctors I've known. Yes, they apply it, but way too fast for my taste. And more often, they add drugs on top of it. I am usually left to my own devices. And yes, I've taken many drugs, unfortunately, during this benzo mess.

[[Ta...]]

 

It's been known for a long time. BBC doc from 1987:

 

 

This is from 1988....London ITV even went over to Pennsylvania to interview

the Pharma Boss of Wyers. ....watch his reaction.

 

 

Mooreweg, thank you for posting this program. I just finished watching all of it.  I am crying at how long the pharmaceutical companies knew about this but continued their immoral mass marketing and distribution of these drugs. To think this program was aired in 1988 and its still going on. The Dutch guy (researcher? doctor?) stated that the suffering alone means it shouldn't not be on the market anymore.

 

And the Wyeth CEO's self-righteous anger on his precious golf-course is just so pathetic. I sympathized with Ada's response she'd like to give him a bullet if it stopped the suffering of others even if she had to sit in jail the rest of her life. I don't condone violence, but I think we all can empathize.

 

We are still lambs being led to our slaughter for their profit.

 

[[mo...]]

"in my opinon." <-- Why do so many of us seem to think we always need to say that here, myself included? It's getting redundant and can't we all begin to ever accept the implicit as a community. It's ludicrous. OF course it's my f*ing opinion. What other option do I have but to have one opinion that is my own, and why do I need to state this. We should all be intellectually and emotionally capable as adults of figuring these things out. Last time I'm typing it!

 

Well, you do not need to write that. In fact, its use probably signifies a failure in how we have structured our post. We have rule against 'prescriptive' writing. We consider this more important than 'tone'. We should not be in business of telling others wht to do in their personal healthcare. We can express opinions, describe what we or others did, and discuss options, but we should not urge other members in into particular actions or inactions. But, we all fall back on a phrase like 'in my opinion' sometimes, because it can be difficult to consistently write in a non-prescriptive manner. Though, I should add, using 'in my opinion' should not be used a disclaimer. Members cannot write a whole post urging others in particular directions and think that's OK because they started the post with 'In my opinion', you signed off with, 'your mileage might vary'.

 

Anyway, so long as the post as a whole is structured utilising discussional language, there is no need to include such phrasing.

 

Thank you Colin, what you explained here makes a great deal of sense, I agree and I'm sorry for the small outburst. I guess that I'm not offended that every person can have their own opinion/opinions and for me it is very clear that a stranger typing on the internet is not going to have advice or any opinion I will consider adopting unless it makes logical, reasonable, rational and intuitive sense to me. It is possible that other's struggle more with understanding that they don't need to take an anonymous writer on a forum's opinion absolutely to heart or that they should always use discretion in applying any advice another member may have. I don't find it confusing that every person alive who has an hopefully independent ability to think and apply reason, should be more than able to weigh and measure what another has to say in terms of how it may apply to their own personal situation. I also shouldn't judge others who may struggle more with understanding what I have described about it that seems to be fairly easy for me personally to grasp in regard to what each of us is talking about in these posts.

 

My brain is struggling mightily, cognition-wise, and thanks for the clarification. I accept that we can all be more impressionable and emotionally erratic because of the nature of withdrawal and the sometimes highly sensitive topics that come up on BB.

[[mo...]]

For me, one of the big things that distinguished this piece from others -- e.g. Dr. Oz, Dr. Phil -- is the Lisa Ling's visible reaction to what she was learning. She was moved. She wasn't sensationalizing it or distancing herself from it in a clinical or TV-show-host sort of way (think Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil). The fact that her own father had had a reaction to the medication or withdrawal from it meant she had some skin in the game. Unlike the TV doctors, she showed a capacity to care about the plight of those whose lives had been affected so deeply.

 

Kudos to those who participated both behind the scenes and in front of the camera. It wasn't an easy piece to do from either side of the camera, I'm sure.

 

There's always more to do. Of course, there is. But I'm really glad that this piece was done and that at least part of the story was told.

 

And that's a fair point about how Drs Oz or Phil would have approached the subject. But I don't think anyone here is totally disparaging the show. We just have differing personalities, perspectives, and hopes for such a show, that's all.

 

Again I agree here too, and thanks. I never meant to knock the show (or the producers, writers, journalist, etc.) and I am thankful for it actually--I believe it's a great start but still believe more could have been explained and covered about the depth and scope of the severe and life-threatening, disabling problems of iatrogenic injury by way of benzodiazepine prescription. This shouldn't be offensive, in my opinion, that some of us weren't fully satisfied. To state that individuals harmed are labeled addicts quite often or that we have no clue how long sometimes severely debilitating side-effects can persist, these kinds of realities of the crisis we all face that are easily said/not a challenge to explain and are not necessarily boring facts, are missing pieces I really feel no one needs to be offended by when being pointed out.

 

Doesn't it make sense that we would have all wanted the segment to have generally discussed and highlighted the fullness of each of our experiences in hopes that someday others will understand who are our loved ones and friends, or for professionals so that at some point we could have better support? These all seem like reasonable points of discussion to me, and not at all offensive.