The two sides of the coin

[[ra...]]

Kpin,

 

That quote is the core of this debate, and the orthodoxy of everyone who finds himself sick from a med: confusion of correlation with causation:  "I withdrew from benzos (SSRI, etc) and I am very sick, therefore benzos (SSRI etc) cause damage in everyone who takes them."  I come back here and prove that the math just doesn't work out.  Members poke holes in my math because they are sick, do not understand how statistics works, or even the statement correlation versus causation, and I leave for months frustrated and annoyed.

 

Then there are are the few who say that I and the few that agree with me, and those who believe Robert Whitaker are entitled to debate.  To which I counter 2+2=4.  If you think 2+2=6, then 2+2=5 is not a compromise, it is just wrong.  Then I am called arrogant (which I admit, but that does not change the facts), and I leave for months frustrated and annoyed.

 

Then I feel compelled to come back to argue because Goddamn it 2+2=4 and it actually hurts my sensibilities to watch a lot of people argue that it doesn't.

 

It is soooooooooooooooooo hard to not stoop to name calling.  What do you say to someone who does not believe that 2+2=4?

 

What's worse, I am human, and when someone gives me an example of where medicine has gone wrong I counter with an example of where it hasn't.  None of that is relevant.  We are the 3 sigma of psyche meds.  If you do not know what that means, look it up.  If it doesn't make sense to you, don't feel bad, you are in the 2 sigma of the population that cannot use math and logic to make decisions in their own lives, and ironically, the people who need to listen to their doctors the most, and leave the questioning of medicine to the 4 sigma with the actual ability to do so.

 

I am guilty of the logic mistake at times.  It took me 3 years to realize that just because a doctor does not understand the science of what the med he prescribes does, does not mean he is wrong, and just because a med is discovered by accident doesn't mean it doesn't work.  Doctors are encyclopedias of knowledge, and pharma had to show a med helped a condition without causing more harm than good.  And I am sorry, but if you do not believe that then you do not believe that 2+2=4.  I will NEVER compromise on that position, and I will bash your lack of logic until I grow weary and leave for months.

 

What I meant by medicine is improving all the time is that they are getting away from the "dartboard approach" of the last 10,000 years, and closer to, "Disease 'A' is caused by 'B'  Let's try 'C' which should do 'D' to 'B' which will help treat or cure 'A'" 

 

Be well and good luck,

 

Ramcon1

[Guest [Kp...]]

Ramcon,

 

ROFL! thoroughly enjoyed your post. 

 

i too am exasperated by n=1 psychiatrists whose only patient has been their own selves. but, i guess, sigh, it is tough to be a human. i believe (as a matter of faith), that human logic is not the only logic in this infinite universe. it is one of many, but, sigh, we cannot know what the other logics are. but we do know that our logic is not the only one -- at least that is how i interpret certain mathematical results to imply. so, it's not just the n=1 population, but, i guess, you and i are no exceptions to narrow, subjective visions -- just that we allow a little more light into our hoods.

 

i too am a damn good n=1 psychiatrist. but still, i always consult my professional psychiatrist when i am contemplating a change of med. i do not blindly follow her advice but i never take what she does not prescribe. the only reason i do this is because she is an MD -- she knows more about the medicine's effect on my body than i do.

[[...]]

"You are desperate to find some relief, I understand that. It just makes me cringe to see you doing all of these mental gymnastics to try to justify something that you should know is extremely risky."

 

Forget about the fact that I have spent years studying neuroscience. This argument is not mental gymnastics to me, just the application of basic reason, backed by logic and math.  It makes me cringe to watch a group of people, collectively and consciously, reject all logic and reason, and make no mistake, if you think that medicine or even psychiatry exists to hurt you and does much more harm than good, you are rejecting all logic and reason.

 

That quote is the core of this debate, and the orthodoxy of everyone who finds himself sick from a med: confusion of correlation with causation:  "I withdrew from benzos (SSRI, etc) and I am very sick, therefore benzos (SSRI etc) cause damage in everyone who takes them."  I come back here and prove that the math just doesn't work out. Members poke holes in my math because they are sick, do not understand how statistics works, or even the statement correlation versus causation, and I leave for months frustrated and annoyed.

 

Ram, admittedly, it had slipped my mind for a moment that all your opinions and future treatment plans (i.e. Zoloft as a remedy for your GI issues) are based upon your years of studying neuroscience and that, after all, you are the smartest man in a room of, how many again?  971 or something like that?  Shame on us mere, sick, mortals for not blindly toeing the line.

 

Are you not aware that BB has another resident neuroscientist on board (dm123)?  How come you're not all over his thread, would've thought it would've been right up your alley.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=184940.0

 

PS - Kpin, wasn't your account meant to have been deleted by now?  You've got Ram eating out of the palm of your hand, he doesn't need anymore convincing to get on more ADs or what not.  You still intend hanging around for a bit longer, hmm?

[[Lo...]]

 

Are you not aware that BB has another resident neuroscientist on board (dm123)?  How come you're not all over his thread, would've thought it would've been right up your alley.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=184940.0

 

Actually, that is one of the best, no-nonsense scientific threads I had seen here on the entire forum. I would highly recommend reading it to anyone who is interested. 

[Guest [Kp...]]

 

PS - Kpin, wasn't your account meant to have been deleted by now?  You've got Ram eating out of the palm of your hand, he doesn't need anymore convincing to get on more ADs or what not.  You still intend hanging around for a bit longer, hmm?

 

i had wanted to see you one last time....

 

One is never too old to yearn. ~ Italian Proverb

 

.... before i left.

[[ra...]]

Somewhere between 1 in 300 and 1 in 700.  Real genius starts at 1 in 3000.  I went to school with those people and had my ass handed to me. Badly.

 

This on the other hand, is just watching a train wreck, I just can't turn away.

 

(I started to read the linked thread, and looked at the youtube.  Youtube is great.  I will chip away at the thread. I hope they get to NMDA at some point)

 

Kpin, I do not understand what you mean by "human logic."  Logic is like electricity.  It was not invented, it was discovered and exists independent of humanity.  Also why would they delete your account?  You have explained your history.  Have you done anything wrong?

 

Now that we are here, try to remember that the debate was simply,

Huh.  Look at these two cases.  One person helped by psychiatry, and another hurt, and using that hurt to sell something, like Robert Whitaker did to sell his books.  So maybe don't think your doctor, who is sworn to help you, and the manufacturers of medications, who are regulated out the wazoo, are out to hurt you.

 

And

If you are getting off benzos for the first or second time, or have been off for less than 2 years, the benzobuddy line is REALLY good advice: Taper off, and hang in there.  It exists because it works more than 90% of the time.

 

However, if you have risk factors such as multiple withdrawals, were polydrugged, or ever reached tolerance, and are sitting there at year 'x' wondering why you are still sick, you are still sick because you have neurological damage that may or may not reverse itself.  Talk about your issues, including your med history, with your doctor, preferably a good neurologist.

 

Right now, I cannot even take a vitamin without a holy shit response, so it is going to take a hell of a lot of shoveling to fill in this hole.  And yes, I KNOW I have to get off my benzo one last time because the most important thing to do when you are in a hole is to stop digging.

 

Ramcon1

[[Fi...]]

When you've dug yourself into a hole that deep, the only option is to keep digging in the hope that you can escape to China.

[Guest [Kp...]]

Ramcon,

 

To digress,

 

My comments about human logic are my belief - a bit of faith. Many would disagree that mathematics is discovered. The platonists would insist it is. I believe math is a human invention. I believe we use intuition also to access the universe and intuition falls outside human logic (which we mostly use to access the universe). The logic intuition uses is beyond us but it is a hint that there could be other logics out there. I do not believe that whatever is out there (kantian thing-in-itself) observes 2+2= 4 or peano axioms (or even if it is a person who believes). 

 

Whatever it is, I'm very dissatisfied with logic, lol, so maybe the dissatisfaction plays out as this pet prejudice. Our self is a creation of logic and nothing more. I'm convinced that it is. Possibly sometime in the future we will see all so clearly that intuition is nothing but rapid calculations in the unconscious that bubble to the conscious and nothing more. That leaves no room for art, beauty and music and that just breaks my heart. Something in me cries at the prospect and says that it is very dissatisfied with logic.

 

I requested my account be deleted because if I stay, I'll talk a lot of non benzo stuff, create drama and get into spats. I've done it a couple of times already.

[[li...]]

'However, if you have risk factors such as multiple withdrawals, were polydrugged, or ever reached tolerance, and are sitting there at year 'x' wondering why you are still sick, you are still sick because you have neurological damage that may or may not reverse itself.  Talk about your issues, including your med history, with your doctor, preferably a good neurologist.'

 

Generally, the neurologist (or other doc) will have no clue. At best they know the cliches.

 

Somewhere between 1 in 300 and 1 in 700.  Real genius starts at 1 in 3000.  I went to school with those people and had my ass handed to me. Badly.

 

This on the other hand, is just watching a train wreck, I just can't turn away.

 

(I started to read the linked thread, and looked at the youtube.  Youtube is great.  I will chip away at the thread. I hope they get to NMDA at some point)

 

Kpin, I do not understand what you mean by "human logic."  Logic is like electricity.  It was not invented, it was discovered and exists independent of humanity.  Also why would they delete your account?  You have explained your history.  Have you done anything wrong?

 

Now that we are here, try to remember that the debate was simply,

Huh.  Look at these two cases.  One person helped by psychiatry, and another hurt, and using that hurt to sell something, like Robert Whitaker did to sell his books.  So maybe don't think your doctor, who is sworn to help you, and the manufacturers of medications, who are regulated out the wazoo, are out to hurt you.

 

And

If you are getting off benzos for the first or second time, or have been off for less than 2 years, the benzobuddy line is REALLY good advice: Taper off, and hang in there.  It exists because it works more than 90% of the time.

 

However, if you have risk factors such as multiple withdrawals, were polydrugged, or ever reached tolerance, and are sitting there at year 'x' wondering why you are still sick, you are still sick because you have neurological damage that may or may not reverse itself.  Talk about your issues, including your med history, with your doctor, preferably a good neurologist.

 

Right now, I cannot even take a vitamin without a holy shit response, so it is going to take a hell of a lot of shoveling to fill in this hole.  And yes, I KNOW I have to get off my benzo one last time because the most important thing to do when you are in a hole is to stop digging.

 

Ramcon1

[[Lo...]]

I am guilty of the logic mistake at times.  It took me 3 years to realize that just because a doctor does not understand the science of what the med he prescribes does, does not mean he is wrong, and just because a med is discovered by accident doesn't mean it doesn't work.  Doctors are encyclopedias of knowledge, and pharma had to show a med helped a condition without causing more harm than good.  And I am sorry, but if you do not believe that then you do not believe that 2+2=4.  I will NEVER compromise on that position, and I will bash your lack of logic until I grow weary and leave for months.

 

And there is a problem with this line of thinking, in a sense that it can leave a person vulnerable to harm. An unwavering trust in doctor's knowledge without a healthy dose of skepticism can be just potentially as dangerous as distrusting doctors and dismissing when they are actually right.

 

Plus the statement makes no sense, logically. Doctors being encyclopedias of knowledge would mean that doctors understand the drugs they are prescribing very well. Sadly, that is often not the case.

 

And the whole 2+2 = 4 interjection seems to be a Straw man fallacy. 2+2=4. I know that 2+2=4, and also know that psychiactric drugs have helped many and have, at the same time harmed many. There is a duality to psychiatric drugs of all kinds, including benzos.....

[[ra...]]

Kpin,

 

I have never understood the philosophy of choosing to have ones account deleted. If you want to stay away, why not just stay away?  I have been away for months at a time out of choice.  I am glad you are doing better than you were, but I am sorry that you see logic as an invention and not a discovery.  Logic is like relativity, a discovery and 2+2=4 independent of our existence.  I hope you will see that one day.

 

Lorazepam,

 

Encyclopedias are updated all the time.  The information a doctor thought was true 20 years ago, he knows is not true today.  When we go to a doctor, we must be aware of the age of the encyclopedia.  I agree with that 100%. (Not age discrimination, but whether the doc has gone for his/her updates.  Best urologist I ever had was 70, cutting edge, and sharp as a whip.  Helped me a lot)

 

This is a sincere question.  I see in your signature you are on two other meds besides your valium taper.  Do you view those meds as helping you, or contributing to whatever issues you currently find troubling? 

 

And finally Liberty,

 

I agree.  It is REALLY hard to find someone who understands, much less can help.  But in my book, just because something is really hard does not mean it is not worth trying, especially in the situation I outlined.

I went through 4 neurologists before I found the one I know understands, and he admits he does not know if he can help.  But he understands the problem, he understands science, has a bag of tricks, and is willing to work with me.

 

 

Good night all y'all, I am turning in early.

 

Ramcon1

[[Lo...]]

Encyclopedias are updated all the time.  The information a doctor thought was true 20 years ago, he knows is not true today.  When we go to a doctor, we must be aware of the age of the encyclopedia.  I agree with that 100%. (Not age discrimination, but whether the doc has gone for his/her updates.  Best urologist I ever had was 70, cutting edge, and sharp as a whip.  Helped me a lot)

 

This is a sincere question.  I see in your signature you are on two other meds besides your valium taper.  Do you view those meds as helping you, or contributing to whatever issues you currently find troubling? 

 

It is a good question. They most likely both help and contribute to problems at the same time. I found myself in a place of having to be very harm-reductionist (couldn't work, couldn't function, couldn't leave house, couldn't think, couldn't....) that it made sense to try to bridge down from the most problematic to less problematic meds. It didn't exactly work the way I envisioned it (it never does, does it?), but the original idea was to bridge down from most dangerous to least dangerous to me while staying away from hospitals, institutions or worse because the balance just got too darn delicate.

[[ra...]]

I was turning in when I realized,

 

Fi Adendum, that was really clever, especially given your name!  (Only problem is in my case keep digging would mean to take more valium?)

 

Good night,

 

Ramcon1

[[Su...]]

I need both coins...

Meds saved my life, and meds destroyed me...

Some Drs Went far and beyond, Some didnt give a shit, -and this total lack tied close to the "system"...

 

What I do understand is that None of the many Drs had a clue once medication aspects went south, And the worst part was that the further up the ladder the Dr was the less help I got... I think Arrogance drove this...  When a Dr says to me -"I dont know, -or understand", That is gold to me.. It means we have a chance at progression, and perhaps I wont be further harmed... Can you imagine the number of times I have been offered ADs, -just incase, or more recently because perhaps its in my head...

Well hell yeah, its in my head... Im slow tapering to get it out as I feel is best for ME... After some convincing that involved a low dose (relitivly) reinstatement on a med.. (that side of the coin)... Support that and we will get on fine Doc... Not so much to ask imo..

Am I challanging their whole belief system...?? -No, -but some sure acted like I was... (yes, that side of the coin)

 

Hard to comment on a lot of things from the perspective of my situation, -We are all different in body and situation, and that translates to which side of this coin holds more weight than the other..?? -Maybe..??

 

Some well thought out posts here...

Thanks...

Now that's a wise post.... thank you Cant for being such a voice of reason and grayness in an area where there are no black and white "truths"

[[Fl...]]

When you've dug yourself into a hole that deep, the only option is to keep digging in the hope that you can escape to China.

 

I guess when your assailant hits you over the head with a shovel, drops you into a 100ft deep pit and then drops the shovel on your head that might look like a viable option to some people.

[[Lo...]]

When you've dug yourself into a hole that deep, the only option is to keep digging in the hope that you can escape to China.

 

I guess when your assailant hits you over the head with a shovel, drops you into a 100ft deep pit and then drops the shovel on your head that might look like a viable option to some people.

 

Dig For Fire Lyrics written by Black Francis of the Pixies

 

There is this old woman

She lives down the road

You can often find her

Kneeling inside of her hole

 

And I often ask her

"Are you looking for the mother lode?"

Huh?

No

No, my child, this is not my desire

And then she said

 

I'm digging for fire

I'm digging for fire

I'm digging for fire

I'm digging for fire

 

There is this old man

Who spent so much of his life sleeping

That he is able to keep awake for the rest of his years

He resides on a beach in a town

Where I am going to live

 

And I often ask him

"Are you looking for the mother lode?"

Huh?

No

No, my child, this is not my desire

And then he said

 

I'm digging for fire

I'm digging for fire

I'm digging for fire

I'm digging for fire

[[Ca...]]

Encyclopedias are updated all the time.  The information a doctor thought was true 20 years ago, he knows is not true today.  When we go to a doctor, we must be aware of the age of the encyclopedia.  I agree with that 100%. (Not age discrimination, but whether the doc has gone for his/her updates.  Best urologist I ever had was 70, cutting edge, and sharp as a whip.  Helped me a lot)

 

This is a sincere question.  I see in your signature you are on two other meds besides your valium taper.  Do you view those meds as helping you, or contributing to whatever issues you currently find troubling? 

 

It is a good question. They most likely both help and contribute to problems at the same time. I found myself in a place of having to be very harm-reductionist (couldn't work, couldn't function, couldn't leave house, couldn't think, couldn't....) that it made sense to try to bridge down from the most problematic to less problematic meds. It didn't exactly work the way I envisioned it (it never does, does it?), but the original idea was to bridge down from most dangerous to least dangerous to me while staying away from hospitals, institutions or worse because the balance just got too darn delicate.

Hi Brother...

Cant...

 

Couldnt and Cant, CAN...!!

-Even if we Couldnt find that Encyclopaedia...

 

 

[[Lo...]]

Encyclopedias are updated all the time.  The information a doctor thought was true 20 years ago, he knows is not true today.  When we go to a doctor, we must be aware of the age of the encyclopedia.  I agree with that 100%. (Not age discrimination, but whether the doc has gone for his/her updates.  Best urologist I ever had was 70, cutting edge, and sharp as a whip.  Helped me a lot)

 

This is a sincere question.  I see in your signature you are on two other meds besides your valium taper.  Do you view those meds as helping you, or contributing to whatever issues you currently find troubling? 

 

It is a good question. They most likely both help and contribute to problems at the same time. I found myself in a place of having to be very harm-reductionist (couldn't work, couldn't function, couldn't leave house, couldn't think, couldn't....) that it made sense to try to bridge down from the most problematic to less problematic meds. It didn't exactly work the way I envisioned it (it never does, does it?), but the original idea was to bridge down from most dangerous to least dangerous to me while staying away from hospitals, institutions or worse because the balance just got too darn delicate.

Hi Brother...

Cant...

 

Couldnt and Cant, CAN...!!

-Even if we Couldnt find that Encyclopaedia...

Thanks Cant. Together we can!!!

[[Lo...]]

It would be good to see you stay, kpin99. I think you have a lot of good suggestions to offer. I do feel that AD's could help those whose nervous systems are a bit more stable. I kind of myself wish that the anti AD crowd didn't get to me before I went on benzos. I do believe that AD's can actually worsen depression over time, but I think that's where Whitaker et. all get it wrong is that people will usually not get to the point of severe disability/mental illness on AD's alone. Almost impossible. It's almost always some combination of AD's and benzos or some other immediately psychoactive substance, but usually, it's the SSRI + benzo combination that can be the most disability inducing.

 

Had I known this not often mentioned fact, I'd probably end up switching up a few AD's and stay the heck away from benzos until I got to the retirement age. Probably better not to start on anything, but once a person does, I think the AD's with therapy is what I'd recommend to anyone serious enough about their mental health. Keep them from benzos, alcohol, etc. etc.

 

I feel doses are crucial. I was started at 40mg of Prozac at the age 24, and then went down to 20mg in a few months. First ativan at the age of 37. I figured if I got started @ 10mg Prozac at 24, it would have been just about perfect. Could have gone to 20mg after several years, and as I got older just swapped to Citalopram. I would stay away from Zoloft, Cymbalta, Effexor and Pristiq. Not terribly good for me. I had bad reactions with Effexor and Zoloft right off the bat and I don't trust AD's with short half-lives.

 

Wish me luck. I am going to see the shrink on Tuesday. I've packed too much weight on to try Mirtazipine and SSRI's are no go for me now because the severity of the benzo injury I have is preventing me from taking SSRI's at any dose. Too much. Will probably have to ride status quo. Hopefully, I'll stabilize on new bzd level in a month or so. I surely hope so.

 

Back in 2013, I thought I was having an SSRI "poop out". But I think it was tolerance and beginnings of physical dependence on ativan that made me all tired and jittery and tired and out of sorts. Once I got off of an SSRI, I could never restart it or any other ones even at the smallest dose. Just goes to show how long term benzos can cause so much havoc.

[Guest [Kp...]]

great post loraz!

 

yes, it is the SSRI + benzo combination that compromises prognosis. *this* the medical fraternity still does not appreciate.  i think highlighting that benzos cause tolerance withdrawal was a remarkable discovery by ashton and this discovery is more important than exposing that benzo withdrawals can be protracted. the discovery is counterintuitive -- how can an anxiolytic cause anxiety? it must be that the patient requires a higher dose of the benzo! even though i cannot find it, i think ashton, in one place comments that benzos should never be prescribed without ADs (but not the reverse).

 

so it's like benzo is disaster, benzo+SSRI is less of a disaster, only AD is the least perilous.

 

 

 

[Guest [Kp...]]

Wish me luck. I am going to see the shrink on Tuesday. I've packed too much weight on to try Mirtazipine and SSRI's are no go for me now because the severity of the benzo injury I have is preventing me from taking SSRI's at any dose. Too much. Will probably have to ride status quo. Hopefully, I'll stabilize on new bzd level in a month or so. I surely hope so.

 

no, no mirt for you in that case. 

 

last year, my glib talking psychiatrist convinced me to try lamotrigine (a glutamate blocker). she said SSRIs were old and no longer the front line treatment for depression. lamotrigine did not work on me. but that does not mean she wasn't right! SSRIs are being challenged by these new drugs that are as effective. to give an example, let's take a member here -- heaven2017.

 

a bit of background first -- i've noticed in BB that folks who quit drinking fall into tolerance withdrawal. cases in point: eli1111, jennifer, billybats and myself. in this short list, only i went on an SSRI to combat the tolerance withdrawal (SSRIs did not suit the rest).

 

the # of people who do not respond to SSRIs is not insignificant. what alternative do these folks have? Heaven2017 similarly fell into depression the moment she quit drinking. she had a history of bad reactions to SSRIs. her doctor put her on abilify. she responded and commenced taper. heaven & ablify

 

but antipsychotics are no longer the only ones to challenge SSRIs. i tried a mood stabilizer (lamotrigine). there is a thread in chewing the fat that discusses new drugs being tested currently and things look very promising -- http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=211318.msg2724350#msg2724350

 

Back in 2013, I thought I was having an SSRI "poop out". But I think it was tolerance and beginnings of physical dependence on ativan that made me all tired and jittery and tired and out of sorts. Once I got off of an SSRI, I could never restart it or any other ones even at the smallest dose. Just goes to show how long term benzos can cause so much havoc.

 

bang on the money!

[[...]]

great post loraz!

 

yes, it is the SSRI + benzo combination that compromises prognosis. *this* the medical fraternity still does not appreciate.  i think highlighting that benzos cause tolerance withdrawal was a remarkable discovery by ashton and this discovery is more important than exposing that benzo withdrawals can be protracted. the discovery is counterintuitive -- how can an anxiolytic cause anxiety? it must be that the patient requires a higher dose of the benzo! even though i cannot find it, i think ashton, in one place comments that benzos should never be prescribed without ADs (but not the reverse).

 

so it's like benzo is disaster, benzo+SSRI is less of a disaster, only AD is the least perilous.

 

 

 

 

Please find it and post it here.

[Guest [Kp...]]

great post loraz!

 

yes, it is the SSRI + benzo combination that compromises prognosis. *this* the medical fraternity still does not appreciate.  i think highlighting that benzos cause tolerance withdrawal was a remarkable discovery by ashton and this discovery is more important than exposing that benzo withdrawals can be protracted. the discovery is counterintuitive -- how can an anxiolytic cause anxiety? it must be that the patient requires a higher dose of the benzo! even though i cannot find it, i think ashton, in one place comments that benzos should never be prescribed without ADs (but not the reverse).

 

so it's like benzo is disaster, benzo+SSRI is less of a disaster, only AD is the least perilous.

 

 

 

 

Please find it and post it here.

 

https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm#14

 

Depression, emotional blunting. Long-term benzodiazepine users, like alcoholics and barbiturate-dependent patients, are often depressed, and the depression may first appear during prolonged benzodiazepine use. Benzodiazepines may both cause and aggravate depression, possibly by reducing the brain's output of neurotransmitters such as serotonin and norepinephrine (noradrenaline). However, anxiety and depression often co-exist and benzodiazepines are frequently prescribed for mixed anxiety and depression. Sometimes the drugs seem to precipitate suicidal tendencies in such patients. Of the first 50 of the patients attending my withdrawal clinic (reported in 1987), ten had taken drug overdoses requiring hospital admission while on chronic benzodiazepine medication; only two of these had a history of depressive illness before they were prescribed benzodiazepines. The depression lifted in these patients after benzodiazepine withdrawal and none took further overdoses during the 10 months to 3.5 years follow-up period after withdrawal. In 1988 the Committee on Safety of Medicines in the UK recommended that "benzodiazepines should not be used alone to treat depression or anxiety associated with depression. Suicide may be precipitated in such patients".

 

the above is a rare admission of what we call tolerance withdrawal by a govt. health body. the advisory is very unambiguous -- don't use benzos alone to treat depression or mixed depression and anxiety. add an AD.  i do not think the advisory is followed.

 

ps. abcd, even eli lilly does not "use" me like you do. not only have i received no remuneration from you, i have been verbally assaulted, mauled, insulted and disparaged. the above google search took me 430 seconds. i could have billed big pharma $450 for it.

[Guest [Kp...]]

Kpin,

I am sorry that you see logic as an invention and not a discovery.  Logic is like relativity, a discovery and 2+2=4 independent of our existence.  I hope you will see that one day.

Ramcon1

 

the observable universe looks remarkably like a human eye:

 

[sketch of observable universe in log scale]

 

 

if the universe is independent of our existence, then why does it look like a human eye? i know there are scientific explanations for this self-similarity but they all involve arguments in which the boundaries between causation and correlation are blurred. to return to the symbolism behind the self-similarity, if we assume that the universe exists independent of us, then a long chain of reasoning leads us to believe that the universe was created for us and does not exist independent of us (modern anthropic reasoning currently popular in physics). we have arrived at this picture of the universe as a human eye after centuries of application of logic. the process is marked by endless subversion of our view of reality by logic itself. have we reached the end, or, are we closer to the end? my personal feeling is that logic is a tease. it is not going to get us anywhere as far as answering metaphysical questions are concerned. (logic has enormous utility in our lives though -- this is obvious.)

 

what makes me suspect of logic is its capacity to unearth the truth. i feel it isn't powerful enough and has profound limitations. it can show us only the tip of the iceberg (and the tip itself seems to be endless). what are the things it is incapable of showing us? all dark things that our universe abounds with  -- dark energy and dark mind (unconscious brain). there is also the dark web (man's creation in his own image, or, his brain's creation in its own image) that is bigger and more complex than the surface web. l feel that were it possible to see the big picture, we would realize that the logical portion is only the "human" portion of it. this portion is carefully distilled, sifted, sculptured to appear at the top of things and complete... just as our conscious self is fooled into believing, by our unconscious, that it is the boss. i find it hard to believe that the conscious brain, or logic, can have an absolute existence without the unconscious part. and if it exists conjoined with the unconscious, in an absolute way, then the unconscious simply overwhelms and overshadows it in terms of absolute existence.

 

if the self is make-belief and a sloppy construct of logic, then everything this self perceives is make belief, including 2+2=4. this is my feeling (and not a logical deduction by any means).

 

i had warned you that i might take off on a tangent to B.S. without warning.

 

a quote by Arthur Eddington:

 

Let us suppose that an ichthyologist is exploring the life of the ocean. He casts a net into the water and brings up a fishy assortment. Surveying his catch, he proceeds in the usual manner of a scientist to systematise what it reveals. He arrives at two generalisations: No sea-creature is less than two inches long. (2) All sea-creatures have gills. These are both true of his catch, and he assumes tentatively that they will remain true however often he repeats it.

 

In applying this analogy, the catch stands for the body of knowledge which constitutes physical science, and the net for the sensory and intellectual equipment which we use in obtaining it. The casting of the net corresponds to observation; for knowledge which has not been or could not be obtained by observation is not admitted into physical science.

 

An onlooker may object that the first generalisation is wrong. "There are plenty of sea-creatures under two inches long, only your net is not adapted to catch them." The icthyologist dismisses this objection contemptuously. "Anything uncatchable by my net is ipso facto outside the scope of icthyological knowledge. In short, what my net can't catch isn't fish." Or — to translate the analogy — "If you are not simply guessing, you are claiming a knowledge of the physical universe discovered in some other way than by the methods of physical science, and admittedly unverifiable by such methods. You are a metaphysician. Bah!"

[[ra...]]

That was a great post Loraz, and Kpin, I also hope you do nit have your account deleted.  Maybe we both piss people off sometimes, but maybe it also gets us and them thinking.  And again, if you get too agitated or depressed, just exercise some self control and stay away.

 

Loraz, whatever differences we may have had in the past, I have an idea.  I also had crap experiences with SSRI post benzo damage, but Zoloft/sertraline is available as a liquid, 20 mg/ml.  Regular syringes like the kind diabetics use are calibrated in 0.01 mg, so 0.05 ml = 1 mg, and you can break the needle off.  After I get my blood tests in next week, if everything looks ok, my docs and I are going to try sertraline liquid "homeopathically," in the literal sense of the word.  A few mgs will make me feel worse, and in theory, my nerves will adapt (and I will benefit from a but of extra serotonin) then when I get back to baseline, add just a few more milligrams, and repeat.  That is not the only thing we are going to do but probably the most important.

 

Then when I get to a dose where I feel I am benefiting (like I can eat something before 10 pm without going insane) I will accelerate my valium taper.

 

That might not be the right treatment for you, but I thought I would float it out there.

 

Be well and good luck,

 

ramcon1

 

PS That idea came from a doc whose JOB TITLE was neurological gastroenterologist, and she is so not interested in science she cannot even spell NMDA, but she is an "encyclopedia" of knowledge.  She has seen hundreds of patients with severe IBS, and most of them responded well to sertraline, after the break in period.  I know why.  She doesn't.  Who cares?  I told her of the difficulties I had with SSRI's and she said "You know, sertraline is available as a liquid so you could start really slowly." And a really good idea was hatched.