The two sides of the coin

[Guest [Kp...]]

brilliant post ramcon1... and it made me laugh hard  too. 

 

 

wish you the best.

[[Su...]]

Good morning buddies,

 

Well this one spiraled out of control quickly.  I hate when this happens because I feel compelled to come back and try to defend the "other" side because there is so much misinformation in the benzobuddy line of thought.

 

Florida, I used to agree with you a lot.  Those days are over.  I have already shown you how your logic is flawed, but you (and Mon pilote, and Terry, abcd, and many others here) have what is known as an "orthodoxy."  You have a belief that cannot be shaken by logic, and will use faulty logic to justify it.

 

This is THE final word on medication. Vioxx.  Merck was dragged through the mud and paid billions in reparations because of a drug that was essentially aspirin "caused" heart attacks.

 

First, 20 million people took Vioxx, "causing" an estimated 88,000 heart attacks, so 1 in 250, and second, 

almost of all of the people who got heart attacks were old, and had other risk factors, the biggest of which being THAT THEY WERE OLD.

 

Vioxx is a chemical IMPROVEMENT over aspirin and if those 20 million people had taken aspirin instead a hell of a lot more would have had cardiovascular events.

 

That did not stop idiots from punishing Merck and forcing them to take Vioxx off the market.  So a drug that helped 249 out of 250 people live with their arthritis is gone because the world is filled with idiots.  It was greedy lawyers that prevailed here, not medicine.

 

I am Dogbert, and I am not going to apologize for that.  While I am the first guy to admit I am wrong, if I tell you something is true then it is, and if you disagree with me then you just do not understand.  I will also be the first guy to agree that doctors know very little about science, but if there is a group of people that know far less it the group who feel compelled to criticize the doctors. If you cannot understand how the above argument about Vioxx definitively proves that while medicine may be flawed, the people who go after it are far more flawed, then you just don't understand.  And if that pisses you off, I don't care.  Forget you.

 

I am only here to appeal to those on the fence.  Those who are actually thinking, "How did I get here, and how I am I going to get out?"  If you already believe in the conspiracy orthodoxy, then I am not going to convince you of a Goddamn thing.

 

Are benzos dangerous?  Hell yes.  More dangerous than most drugs?  Hell yes again.  They put us here.  Is there a medical conspiracy to push drugs and hurt us?  Hell no.  Doctors are doing the best they can, and medicine is improving everyday.

 

I promised you that I would be back with more info, here you go:

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611786/the-cartographer-of-cells/

 

This woman and her team will have all disease states cured and done in 20 years.  We just have to live through the next 19.

 

So stay off meds.  Or don't.  Believe me.  Or not.  Heal.  Or don't.

 

Ramcon1

[[mo...]]

So, Vioxx on its own proves there is 0 corruption in the drugs put out by one of the most lucrative industries on the planet which is basically only “regulated” by itself.

 

That’s a really solid argument.  (heavy sarcasm.)

 

Each to their own. I may have thought this was another thread last night and been mixed up because I wasn’t going to read any more of either one of your comments, I think I’ll go back to doing that and you all take care.

[[ra...]]

Mon Pilote.  If you could only see how you just prove my point.  You just cannot take the 20,000 foot view:  A drug, any drug, makes it through the rigorous FDA process.  Then a few people get hurt, and a few more people figure out how to profit from their pain.  That's it.  It is as simple as that.  I don't care if stay off this thread or not.  It's a free internet.

 

Kpin, I was going to PM you but maybe its better to put this in the open, and I want to make sure other buddies and I understand what you did.

 

Did you use Prozac DURING your last benzo taper, or did you taper the benzo first and then start Prozac?

 

Thanks,

 

ramcon1

[[Lo...]]

Good morning buddies,

 

Well this one spiraled out of control quickly.  I hate when this happens because I feel compelled to come back and try to defend the "other" side because there is so much misinformation in the benzobuddy line of thought.

 

Florida, I used to agree with you a lot.  Those days are over.  I have already shown you how your logic is flawed, but you (and Mon pilote, and Terry, abcd, and many others here) have what is known as an "orthodoxy."  You have a belief that cannot be shaken by logic, and will use faulty logic to justify it.

 

This is THE final word on medication. Vioxx.  Merck was dragged through the mud and paid billions in reparations because of a drug that was essentially aspirin "caused" heart attacks.

 

First, 20 million people took Vioxx, "causing" an estimated 88,000 heart attacks, so 1 in 250, and second, 

almost of all of the people who got heart attacks were old, and had other risk factors, the biggest of which being THAT THEY WERE OLD.

 

Vioxx is a chemical IMPROVEMENT over aspirin and if those 20 million people had taken aspirin instead a hell of a lot more would have had cardiovascular events.

 

That did not stop idiots from punishing Merck and forcing them to take Vioxx off the market.  So a drug that helped 249 out of 250 people live with their arthritis is gone because the world is filled with idiots.  It was greedy lawyers that prevailed here, not medicine.

 

I am Dogbert, and I am not going to apologize for that.  While I am the first guy to admit I am wrong, if I tell you something is true then it is, and if you disagree with me then you just do not understand.  I will also be the first guy to agree that doctors know very little about science, but if there is a group of people that know far less it the group who feel compelled to criticize the doctors. If you cannot understand how the above argument about Vioxx definitively proves that while medicine may be flawed, the people who go after it are far more flawed, then you just don't understand.  And if that pisses you off, I don't care.  Forget you.

 

I am only here to appeal to those on the fence.  Those who are actually thinking, "How did I get here, and how I am I going to get out?"  If you already believe in the conspiracy orthodoxy, then I am not going to convince you of a Goddamn thing.

 

Are benzos dangerous?  Hell yes.  More dangerous than most drugs?  Hell yes again.  They put us here.  Is there a medical conspiracy to push drugs and hurt us?  Hell no.  Doctors are doing the best they can, and medicine is improving everyday.

 

I promised you that I would be back with more info, here you go:

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611786/the-cartographer-of-cells/

 

This woman and her team will have all disease states cured and done in 20 years.  We just have to live through the next 19.

 

So stay off meds.  Or don't.  Believe me.  Or not.  Heal.  Or don't.

 

Ramcon1

That is an interesting perspective, Ramcon1. I do believe there is more to it than people getting those Vioxx-related heart attacks just being "old". I'm not old, yet I had trouble tolerating NSAIDS and cox and cox-2 inhibitors in general. And this was way before benzos. Sulfa drugs, and cox and cox-2 inhibitors and NSAIDS always made/make me feel weird and unwell. Perhaps, it's an allergic reaction. I had a small injury before I was on benzos and was prescribed one of the meds from the cox-2 class. It made me feel yucky, so I decided to put up with the pain and inflammation instead.

 

But yes, the whole big marketing push being the cox-2 inhibitors like Vioxx is that they're more selective than the old school NSAIDS and don't cause the potentially deadly GI inflammation and are supposed to be more safer and better drugs. But are they, really?

 

Well, FDA happens to be much more stringent with the newer drugs on the market, and especially with the non-psychiatric ones. Had Vioxx been put on the market in the 70's and 80's like benzos had been, there is a good chance that it would have stayed on the market. But it didn't. I don't think that people in FDA were "idiots" for pulling it. There were good reasons to do it. Just because FDA has it wrong/backwards about certain drugs, doesn't mean that they are wrong with their assessment of all drugs. Celebrex and other NSAIDS got their black-box warning for a reason.

 

[[so...]]

“I am Dogbert, and I am not going to apologize for that.  While I am the first guy to admit I am wrong, if I tell you something is true then it is, and if you disagree with me then you just do not understand.”

 

Wow, Ramcon!  I’ve never seen a more arrogant post than this one on the forum.  Congratulations for being the only one in the world who knows “the truth.”

 

Sofa

[Guest [Kp...]]

 

 

Kpin, I was going to PM you but maybe its better to put this in the open, and I want to make sure other buddies and I understand what you did.

 

Did you use Prozac DURING your last benzo taper, or did you taper the benzo first and then start Prozac?

 

Thanks,

 

ramcon1

 

i'm glad you put it in the open so that others can know too.

 

i used prozac DURING my taper.

 

last year i was in tolerance withdrawal (depressed and housebound). i started prozac in may '2017 and it gave me relief after the start-up. then i started tapering in june 2017.

 

today i am still on prozac but benzo-free. i am on the starting dose of prozac -- 20 mg.

 

i will taper prozac after i cross the 1 year mark of being benzo-free.

 

[[Fl...]]

Mon Pilote.  If you could only see how you just prove my point.  You just cannot take the 20,000 foot view:  A drug, any drug, makes it through the rigorous FDA process.

 

You mean that "rigorous" process where the drug companies are allowed to commission as many studies as they need to find a couple that show that their drug is marginally safer and more effective than a placebo with no regard toward the possibility of long term or permanent damage?

 

You're drinkin' the kool aid dude. You are in a viscous cycle of trying to treat whatever illnesses and drug damage you have with more drugs. Drugs that have been proven to cause the very same issues they supposedly treat and can cause long term, possibly irreparable damage to the CNS.

 

I feel bad for you. You claim that our logic is flawed when we point that out the fact that mental illness has increased in lock step with the drug treatment paradigm. Orthodoxy? Orthodoxy is "psych drugs are good medicine". What we are saying is the opposite of orthodox.

 

 

[[Lo...]]

Mon Pilote.  If you could only see how you just prove my point.  You just cannot take the 20,000 foot view:  A drug, any drug, makes it through the rigorous FDA process.  Then a few people get hurt, and a few more people figure out how to profit from their pain.  That's it.  It is as simple as that.  I don't care if stay off this thread or not.  It's a free internet.

 

Kpin, I was going to PM you but maybe its better to put this in the open, and I want to make sure other buddies and I understand what you did.

 

Did you use Prozac DURING your last benzo taper, or did you taper the benzo first and then start Prozac?

 

Thanks,

 

ramcon1

 

Like I mentioned in a previous posts, the FDA is much more rigorous about newer drugs hitting the market, especially the ones that are not psychiatric. Which doesn't say much in itself, because FDA had been pretty lax when approving benzos and many other psychiatric or non-psychiatric drugs of old. So older generic drugs are not necessarily safer or better. There might be a bigger body of evidence around them, too. But NSAIDS and COX inhibitors of all kinds have been extensively covered in so many books, articles. It's generally well-known information that's easily found. As far as the dangers of benzodiazepines goes, one has to look at a lot of obscure sources (Ashton manual, ncbi pubmed articles, etc. etc.). It is generally not nearly as well understood as the NSAIDS, so Vioxx example is not he best example. Also, how come that there have been countless documentaries/ads/campaigns on national TV about the dangers of opiates, cocaine, heroin, nicotine, etc. etc. yet there had not been a single one on benzodiazepines? How come the FDA sat silently through the revival of the market for benzodiazepines and failed to protect the populace from doctors who scripted them like candy and then witheld them at their whim? How come that FDA never looked at the horrors in UK that people experienced with the drug Ativan in the 80's particular?  How about the FDA sleeping through the Xanax epidemic of the 80's and 90's and doing nothing to protect people this time around?

 

I'm looking at the FDA data sheet for ativan, and the dosing instructions must have been taylored by Dr. Kevorkian himself

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2007/017794s034s035lbl.pdf

DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION

Ativan (lorazepam) is administered orally. For optimal results, dose, frequency of

administration, and duration of therapy should be individualized according to

patient response. To facilitate this, 0.5 mg, 1 mg, and 2 mg tablets are available.

The usual range is 2 to 6 mg/day given in divided doses, the largest dose being

taken before bedtime, but the daily dosage may vary from 1 to 10 mg/day.

For anxiety, most patients require an initial dose of 2 to 3 mg/day given b.i.d. or

t.i.d.

For insomnia due to anxiety or transient situational stress, a single daily dose of

2 to 4 mg may be given, usually at bedtime.

For elderly or debilitated patients, an initial dosage of 1 to 2 mg/day in divided

doses is recommended, to be adjusted as needed and tolerated.

The dosage of Ativan (lorazepam) should be increased gradually when needed

to help avoid adverse effects. When higher dosage is indicated, the evening dose

should be increased before the daytime doses.

 

Yes, good luck getting off of this drug after being given 2 to 4mg for insomnia short-term or 2 to 3mg a day, 2x or 3x day for anxiety. I think it's time that FDA steps up its plate and updates the safety information on all benzodiazepines as soon as possible before more people get crippled and maimed by them.

[[ra...]]

Sofa,

 

Guilty as charged.  I am the most arrogant person on benzobuddies.  Doesn't make me wrong.  I will be the first to admit when I am proven wrong, but so far none of you have come close.  In fact, all of your attempts to do so laughably just prove my point.  For example:

 

Lorazepam,

You do not tolerate NSAIDS well. Hundreds of millions do.  Should we pull them?  Give them a black box warning?  Sigh.  Vioxx is a great med.  Shame it was pulled.

 

Kpin,

 

Thanks.  As soon as I have my blood tests in, I am going to try a similar tactic with sertraline (Zoloft) with a few possible supplemental augments like SAMe, Gotu Kola, and some VERY carefully selected B vitamins.  AND BTW exercise and meditation.  I will report on that in a few months when it does or doesn't work.

 

This is a topic that is very inflammatory on both sides.  The anti-med camp is not going to convince the med camp and vice versa.  But in my mind it is like evolution versus literal creationism.  There are millions of people that believe that God created the world in 6 24-hour calendar days.  To them, the rest of the world is filled with atheists who are going to hell.  To we atheists who are going to hell, the literal creationists are completely incapable of logical thought.

 

Which one so you want to be?

 

I choose Dogbert.  I might change my moniker to Dogbert,

 

ramcon1

[Guest [Kp...]]

You claim that our logic is flawed when we point that out the fact that mental illness has increased in lock step with the drug treatment paradigm.

 

how do you measure mental illness? who measures it? do those who measure it have a vested interest?

 

the number of foot-long distances in the world increased exponentially after the foot ruler was invented. so?

the demand for golf balls increased after the golf ball was invented and its production commissioned. what does that prove?

[[Lo...]]

What the hell is psychiatry actually doing for anyone apart from branding them with labels and stuffing them with drugs. What are they doing that any reasonable GP could not accomplish? All they do is have you sit in a room for 10 or 15 minutes and then write a script!

 

That's an excellent point.

[[Lo...]]

Lorazepam,

You do not tolerate NSAIDS well. Hundreds of millions do.  Should we pull them?  Give them a black box warning?  Sigh.  Vioxx is a great med.  Shame it was pulled.

 

Apparently those "old" people who got heart attacks on Vioxx thought they tolerated their NSAIDS very well, too. And then they got heart attacks. Subjective, non-critical evaluation can be a man's early grave.

 

This forum and graveyards are filled with people who thought they tolerated benzodiazepines well. They were most likely told by their doctors and especially psychiatrists that benzodiazepines were safe, effective, commonly prescribed and especially non-toxic and safe in overdoses.

 

I sure wish I had the same allergic reaction to the first few doses of Ativan, the way I had it with NSAIDS. It would have saved me from much trouble, suffering and despair.

[[...]]

What the hell is psychiatry actually doing for anyone apart from branding them with labels and stuffing them with drugs. What are they doing that any reasonable GP could not accomplish? All they do is have you sit in a room for 10 or 15 minutes and then write a script!

 

That's an excellent point.

 

Spot on! 

[[ra...]]

The USFDA process is a rigorous procedure that takes 3 plus years to get approval.  Please stop lying. Certainly benzos did NOT have to go through the process that modern drugs do or things would be different.

 

That said, any Game of Thrones fans out there?

Cersei

Geoffrey

Little Finger

The Hound . . .

 

Peter Breggin

Amy Yasko

Kelly Brogan

Ben Lynch

Robert Whitaker

I can't find the website of the guy who claims he went to MIT . . .

[[of...]]

Hello my buddies,

 

I hope today finds you all doing better than I am.  I have a cold, and a wave, or a wave brought on by a cold or a cold brought on by a wave.  Who cares?

 

There are a ton of discussions about what meds can do TO or FOR us.  Most of us have been pretty badly damaged by benzos and/or other drugs, so the general consensus HERE is get off all psychiatric meds and let your body heal.

 

I had that opinion in the beginning because it worked for so many.  I have since discarded it completely, believing, with many exceptions, but in general believing we do not find our meds, our meds find us.

 

Yes there are horror stories about people given all the wrong meds for all the wrong reasons, or polydrugged into submission, and they end up damaged.  But there are also stories of people who took benzos to manage anxiety or insomnia that was otherwise unmanageable, and ended up damaged after years of use and mistakes.

 

I am at a more or less holding point of Valium at 12 mg, and will make slow cuts as my system and circumstances allow.  But I came across these two articles from two completely different perspectives one right after the other:

 

The first is right out of the benzobuddy playbook.  "The drugs made me sick and now I am getting off so I can heal naturally:"

https://kellybroganmd.com/the-breaking-point/?utm_source=Kelly+Brogan+MD+Newsletter&utm_campaign=8ad0d48f67-The+Breaking+Point&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d0f977a8c5-8ad0d48f67-124482271

 

The second is from a health blogger who does everything she can to be healthy, but openly admits she would have severe anxiety and depression without her medication.  I think it is important to note that she is not on a benzo, but an SSRI, and has been on other meds but not benzos.

 

I think it is also important also to note  that the FIRST article, the ANTI-MED article, is the one selling something.  The second is a blogger being honest.

 

I am not saying that we should all run out and get on meds.  I am saying that if after a few clean years you are looking at your life thinking, "What the F?" it is possible you might need some help.

 

If I could do it all over again, I would have given other meds a longer chance before reinstating, but then again, when I reinstated, I was a hysterical mess 24/7.  I think I personally needed to reinstate, and am now ready to transition to different meds, supps, and therapies from a calmer state of mind  I just wish I had gotten here sooner.  I will be doing a lot in the next several months, and will check in now and again.

 

If I could REALLY do it all over again, I would have taken remeron and only remeron as soon as it was available and never touched a benzo or Z-drug.

 

I hope anyone found that useful.

 

Be well and good luck,

 

ramcon1

 

Ramcom1

 

I agree with you. I haven’t read the other posts yet.  But I am not anti anti depressant. I am pro quality of life. If it offers me a chance at a semi functional life with minimal side effects that don’t require Benzo’s (after my benzo taper) I will take it. This isn’t living. I have seen anti depressants work in peoples lives when nothing else did.

 

Some of us don’t have the means or the ability to get the food, the supps, the therapy, the exercise “the everything possible” in enough quantities and regularly enough to see if that works. Most days I cant get a shower let alone grocery shop and then I can’t drive so there’s that. 

 

PS how did you quit smoking during taper? I’m trying but it’s so hard.

[[...]]

I'll be very disappointed hearing you, the businessman, were working so darn hard, pro bono, for Big Pharma.

 

:laugh: money is not everything in life abcd -- esp. when you have enough of it.

 

we will meet in the next life abcd! our roles will be switched -- you will be advocating ADs and i will be the fulminating peter briggins fan boy. (at least that is what physicists say -- everything that can happen does happen and thus there is a universe in which our roles are reversed).

 

Try telling that to Bezos or Gates or Zuckerberg.

 

Kpin, we're having a little fun here but, in all seriousness, you do know I'm very curious as to your MO for being on BB.  Besides you, I've only ever seen two other fairly obvious shills here.  They did their thing and, as anticipated, they were gone after a couple of months.  You've stuck around here for eight years, you already knew the Ashton manual like the back of your hand when you joined BB.  You were a Mod at another depression forum.  You knew all the psych drugs inside and out.  You immediately stepped into the Advisor role and never needed support yourself.  And then, as I already pointed out, at every opportunity you tried to entice someone to take ADs.  Even if it meant outright lying and posting contradictory links which you hoped people wouldn't actually bother to click on.  Very shabby and suspect behavior, Dude.

 

If you're looking for some credibility on this thread, it would be appreciated if you could address this former post of yours and explain yourself.  You sound like a Peter Breggin fan boy here (note also that it's spelled "Breggin").  What exactly happened along the way to make you do a 180 from your opinion here? 

 

And, bear in mind, now that you know I've read every single post you've ever written on BB I am fully aware of how you quit one SSRI because you claimed it was *causing* you depression , then you switched to another one and became an impotent insomniac so, naturally, Remeron was added to your stack and you went on to become an extremely overweight pre-diabetic.  Can you explain what part of that makes you so passionate about ADs? 

 

Here, again, is your thought process some six years ago.  What changed?  Await your response with great anticipation. 

 

Re: Clonazepam - Irratible and Sad .... Anyone else feel this way??

Please respondl

 

« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 11:40:14 am »

 

      Quote from: dbeam on December 06, 2012, 11:13:34 am

 

        But I wonder what man did 200 years ago when we did not have any of this available

 

vineet2:

i too have thought about it -- it is an interesting question. speaking of depression, depression is recorded as a self-limiting episode lasting from a few months to years. so even in the absence of treatment, it would resolve (though in some cases may present itself as chronic). speaking of anxiety disorders -- alcohol has been a refuge (self medication). anxiety disorders respond well to alternative treatments too i think -- yoga, meditation, exercise, religious fervour. only psychosis has never had a treatment. so i do not think these ailments, or least many of them, were incurable or unmanageable in the past.

 

the quality of life, with the advent of these medications, has only MARGINALLY improved for those mentally afflicted. i emphasize "marginally." not enough research has gone into developing newer psychiatric drugs and a whole bunch of them are products of discoveries made in the 50s i think -- all serotonin based. the efficacy of this type of treatment is also dubious -- ssris and snris, though giving relief, continually "poop out" leaving patients in the lurch or on the roller coaster for trials and errors with different cousins of the same ssri family or even ECT (which is gaba based). add to that the rising demography of the "accidental addicts," to which this board is testimony or people made sick, iatrogenically, by the psychiatric community! so the net impact of these drugs on the human populace might be retrograde to say the least.

 

[[ra...]]

As I said earlier, this has spiraled waaaaaaaaaay out of control.  People who used to like each other are no longer going to and that is too bad.

 

My whole point can be boiled down to "One man's meat is another man's poison."  That saying is thousands of years old:

 

https://www.bookbrowse.com/expressions/detail/index.cfm/expression_number/442/one-mans-meat-is-another-mans-poison

 

Before benzos, SSRI's or the USFDA.

 

I am sick.  Sicker than some of you, and not as sick as others.  I am sick because I did not know the dangers associated with benzos and their use until it was too late. I made ALL of the mistakes, multiple withdrawals, chased them with alcohol when I reached tolerance.  I did things I wish I had not done, but I did them, and now I am disabled.  So I totally get that meds can hurt people, and my psychiatrist enabled me.

 

But he never "pushed" pills on me.  I came to him with crippling insomnia and he did his best to help me. He also helped me get off benzos in 2012.  He is basically a good guy doing his best to help his patients.

 

Everyone has his limit, and when I caved and reinstated in 2016 I did what I had to do.  So now I am as sick as I was when I reinstated, and I have to do something else.

 

The benzobuddy mantra "get off and hang in there," is very good advice and works well 99.9% of the time, ironically, about as well as when a doctor treats a disease condition with the right med.

 

I will never understand how anyone can base all of medicine on his own pain, nor can I understand how anyone cannot see the pharma-doc bashing conspiracy theorist charlatans for exactly what they are, charlatans.

 

I also thought it was ironic that I was web surfing research articles and I came across the two I posted at the beginning of this thread one right after the other:  One woman who is a health blogger admitting that she would not be able to function with (a non-benzo) anti-anxiety anti-depressant med, and another who was fed up with the psyche med experience, and it was the latter who was selling something.

 

I thought, rather innocently, that this is something I should share with my poor struggling benzo buddies.  Poor shmos like me who are hanging in there for a long time (I hung in there for 3 1/2 years) who are barely functioning and might benefit from a reminder that not every med makes everyone sick.  On the contrary, medicine exists to help people, and we might need some help.

 

Instead it polarized people just like the review of "Anatomy of an Epidemic."

 

Again and finally:

Believe me.  Or don't.  Take a med.  Or don't.  And, "One man's meat is another man's poison," is a very, very old saying because it is true.

 

ramcon1

 

(Kpin, if you are Vineet2 you owe abcd an explanation.  If you are not then please deny his/her claim publicly)

[Guest [Kp...]]

@[ab...]

 

seriously, among many things i have just given up reflecting on myself. so to read these blasts from the pasts is to encounter a self that i had no idea was once me.

 

Kpin, we're having a little fun here but, in all seriousness, you do know I'm very curious as to your MO for being on BB.   (hope you like pink?)

 

 

i joined in 2012 cos i had been CT'ed from my K. this was my second CT. after my first CT in 2008, my doc put me on an SSRI and mirtaz. he reintroduced my benzo too. i was diagnosed sick and i believed it. in 2012 he did another benzo CT on me. i then learnt about benzo withdrawals in BB and joined it and swore to come out clean. after my 2008 diagnosis, i had started drinking too and also advertizing that i was mentally sick and thus needed ADs and booze to drown my sorrows and fix my brain. anyway, in 2013 i hurriedly ditched my ADs but carried on drinking till 2016. rest is known to you. my participation in BB during the period 2012 - 2016 was frugal 'cos i was drinking and not tapering -- so i had zilch to contribute. in 2016 life picked up and i'm now headed out of the door.

 

it is remarkable that i still believe in ADs and psychiatry after what my psychiatrist did to me.

 

listen, we will wrap up the remainder discussion in the next life dudette... ok? it is bedtime here.

[[Lo...]]

As I said earlier, this has spiraled waaaaaaaaaay out of control.  People who used to like each other are no longer going to and that is too bad.

 

My whole point can be boiled down to "One man's meat is another man's poison."  That saying is thousands of years old:

 

https://www.bookbrowse.com/expressions/detail/index.cfm/expression_number/442/one-mans-meat-is-another-mans-poison

 

Before benzos, SSRI's or the USFDA.

 

I am sick.  Sicker than some of you, and not as sick as others.  I am sick because I did not know the dangers associated with benzos and their use until it was too late. I made ALL of the mistakes, multiple withdrawals, chased them with alcohol when I reached tolerance.  I did things I wish I had not done, but I did them, and now I am disabled.  So I totally get that meds can hurt people, and my psychiatrist enabled me.

 

But he never "pushed" pills on me.  I came to him with crippling insomnia and he did his best to help me. He also helped me get off benzos in 2012.  He is basically a good guy doing his best to help his patients.

 

Everyone has his limit, and when I caved and reinstated in 2016 I did what I had to do.  So now I am as sick as I was when I reinstated, and I have to do something else.

 

The benzobuddy mantra "get off and hang in there," is very good advice and works well 99.9% of the time, ironically, about as well as when a doctor treats a disease condition with the right med.

 

I will never understand how anyone can base all of medicine on his own pain, nor can I understand how anyone cannot see the pharma-doc bashing conspiracy theorist charlatans for exactly what they are, charlatans.

 

I also thought it was ironic that I was web surfing research articles and I came across the two I posted at the beginning of this thread one right after the other:  One woman who is a health blogger admitting that she would not be able to function with (a non-benzo) anti-anxiety anti-depressant med, and another who was fed up with the psyche med experience, and it was the latter who was selling something.

 

I thought, rather innocently, that this is something I should share with my poor struggling benzo buddies.  Poor shmos like me who are hanging in there for a long time (I hung in there for 3 1/2 years) who are barely functioning and might benefit from a reminder that not every med makes everyone sick.  On the contrary, medicine exists to help people, and we might need some help.

 

Instead it polarized people just like the review of "Anatomy of an Epidemic."

 

Again and finally:

Believe me.  Or don't.  Take a med.  Or don't.  And, "One man's meat is another man's poison," is a very, very old saying because it is true.

 

ramcon1

 

(Kpin, if you are Vineet2 you owe abcd an explanation.  If you are not then please deny his/her claim publicly)

 

Well, if you honestly feel that your psychiatrist is a good man who has actually helped you and did his best, and if you think that people here are "anti-med charlatans", then I am confused, because, if I felt the same way, I would just ignore this place and go back to my psychiatrist and ask him for help and would not listen to the people here. It seems to me that you don't seem to give a lot of weight to the individual experiences of others here and that your opinions and thought processes are very much set in a certain way. There is nothing wrong with that, and there are many people who are not really interested in the opinions of others on anonymous forums and trust their doctors and their medical provides and will not bother with forums like these. Nothing wrong with that. I used to think very much like my current psychiatrist thinks. SSRI's for depression, benzos for anxiety, etc. I believed into that model for whatever reason. I see it now as very limited because, while it may work for a while, it can also betray many.

 

So, I am just generally confused by what it is that you are seeking here. Are you looking for an approval that it's ok to take meds? As far as I am concerned, it's ok. I won't guarantee your saferty one way or the other, but from the ethical point of view, there is nothing wrong with taking meds in my book. There's nothing wrong with being on benzos and SSRI's, if you wish. If you think they are helping you, then that's fine.

 

You haven't been here for a while, so I am guessing you might have found some stability and peace and solace for a time being. Then something backfired. You are sick. You need support. Chewing the fat isn't exactly the place to seek support. It's a discussion area, and conflicts are frequent. When I need support, I call a helpline, PM a member, talk to a family member or an acquaintance (when they show up once in a blue moon). There is nothing wrong with admitting you're not doing ok. Nothing wrong at all.

 

Honestly, if you need support, people are ready to offer it. But opening a drug discussion thread in the Nexus forum isn't exactly the best way to get support. Yes, sure, some people do well on their meds. Of course. The ones that do well on them are usually not found on this forum. For one reason or another, people end up here because what seemed to have worked for them in the past has backfired. Maybe the med paradigm they believed in betrayed them. Maybe their lack of understanding of meds betrayed them, too. Maybe their doctor didn't know enough. Maybe all of it combined. I think it goes without saying that you will find a lot of medication doubters here, at the very least. Yes, some people are very anti-med. I am not. I am pro fully-informed consent. Having that is gold, and I sure hope you get fully informed consent when you make your future medication decisions. Good luck to you.

 

 

[[Te...]]

You haven't been here for a while, so I am guessing you might have found some stability and peace and solace for a time being. Then something backfired. You are sick. You need support. Chewing the fat isn't exactly the place to seek support. It's a discussion area, and conflicts are frequent. When I need support, I call a helpline, PM a member, talk to a family member or an acquaintance (when they show up once in a blue moon). There is nothing wrong with admitting you're not doing ok. Nothing wrong at all.

 

Loraz, my thoughts exactly.

 

People pop up here whenever things are not going well for them. It's as simple as that, or to see if someone responded to their post. I would not care to be back if I felt better. I would, in fact, love to go far, far away from BB someday. I've spent far too much time here (as signified by the number of posts I've written along with my plog. Zounds!!!).

[Guest [Kp...]]

@[ab...]

 

I think I did not answer why I made a volte face with respect to ADs, or seeming volte face (I do not have a hard-line stand with respect to psychiatry).

 

There are a few things that I understood only last year. One of them was that quitting my ssri in 2013 was a mistake. I should not have quit it because it was masking benzo tolerance withdrawals (something I did not know then that I was susceptible to). I should have quit the ssri last.

 

Rest of what I say about ADs causing me depression - I don't think it was the AD doing this back then. It was the benzo.

 

Pre diabetes - yes there is the risk of this with mirtaz. But what is unsaid is that I lost all the weight and never developed diabetes.

 

Sexual impotence - yes, there is the risk of this too. I did have it when I started the ssri but it passed. Others get it worse.

 

I might get nasty withdrawals when I quit ssri - I might. Even if I do, it won't change my mind about ADs.

 

Rest of what-ifs are too far into the future. Today everything is ok and I know I am safe.

 

[[li...]]

'Are benzos dangerous?  Hell yes.  More dangerous than most drugs?  Hell yes again.  They put us here.  Is there a medical conspiracy to push drugs and hurt us?  Hell no.  Doctors are doing the best they can, and medicine is improving everyday.'

 

The pharmaceutical industry wants to sell as much as they can, all for the money. Often, if they hurt people that's a market for other drugs. Doctors are not doing the best they can, at best they are flawed like any other human being (and then the God complex!) and medicine often gets worse rather than better. Cymbalta versus older ADs ? Clonazepam an inprovement over phenobarbital ? 'Me Too' drugs.

 

 

 

Good morning buddies,

 

Well this one spiraled out of control quickly.  I hate when this happens because I feel compelled to come back and try to defend the "other" side because there is so much misinformation in the benzobuddy line of thought.

 

Florida, I used to agree with you a lot.  Those days are over.  I have already shown you how your logic is flawed, but you (and Mon pilote, and Terry, abcd, and many others here) have what is known as an "orthodoxy."  You have a belief that cannot be shaken by logic, and will use faulty logic to justify it.

 

This is THE final word on medication. Vioxx.  Merck was dragged through the mud and paid billions in reparations because of a drug that was essentially aspirin "caused" heart attacks.

 

First, 20 million people took Vioxx, "causing" an estimated 88,000 heart attacks, so 1 in 250, and second, 

almost of all of the people who got heart attacks were old, and had other risk factors, the biggest of which being THAT THEY WERE OLD.

 

Vioxx is a chemical IMPROVEMENT over aspirin and if those 20 million people had taken aspirin instead a hell of a lot more would have had cardiovascular events.

 

That did not stop idiots from punishing Merck and forcing them to take Vioxx off the market.  So a drug that helped 249 out of 250 people live with their arthritis is gone because the world is filled with idiots.  It was greedy lawyers that prevailed here, not medicine.

 

I am Dogbert, and I am not going to apologize for that.  While I am the first guy to admit I am wrong, if I tell you something is true then it is, and if you disagree with me then you just do not understand.  I will also be the first guy to agree that doctors know very little about science, but if there is a group of people that know far less it the group who feel compelled to criticize the doctors. If you cannot understand how the above argument about Vioxx definitively proves that while medicine may be flawed, the people who go after it are far more flawed, then you just don't understand.  And if that pisses you off, I don't care.  Forget you.

 

I am only here to appeal to those on the fence.  Those who are actually thinking, "How did I get here, and how I am I going to get out?"  If you already believe in the conspiracy orthodoxy, then I am not going to convince you of a Goddamn thing.

 

Are benzos dangerous?  Hell yes.  More dangerous than most drugs?  Hell yes again.  They put us here.  Is there a medical conspiracy to push drugs and hurt us?  Hell no.  Doctors are doing the best they can, and medicine is improving everyday.

 

I promised you that I would be back with more info, here you go:

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611786/the-cartographer-of-cells/

 

This woman and her team will have all disease states cured and done in 20 years.  We just have to live through the next 19.

 

So stay off meds.  Or don't.  Believe me.  Or not.  Heal.  Or don't.

 

Ramcon1

[[ra...]]

Lorazepam, Terry (Florida, abcd, Sofa and the "all meds are bad" side of this coin),

 

Allow me to clear up any confusion.  I am not looking for support or affirmation, nor am I popping up BECAUSE things are not going well.  Ironically, for me the opposite is true.  This is the most depressing place on the internet and I stay away when I am at my sickest. 

 

In general, I do not care what other people think OF ME.  I do care about benzobuddies, and what other people THINK because I am always looking to learn.  Many buddies have sent me useful articles, and I thank them.  I stay away when I am at my sickest and have nothing to add, but come back when I find something to add whether I am sick or not.

 

I think my psychiatrist did his best.  His best did not help me in the long run, so I did further research and found different doctors, and with their help, I will start new, more science-based treatment.  If I weren't so sick, I would be grateful for the experience.

 

Kpin, thank you for the clarification.  I am glad you are on a better path now.

 

Offandon, I blame my reinstatement on my quitting smoking.  I absolutely HAD to quit because my NMDAR (N-methyl-D-aspartate, a type of glutamate receptor) in my colon had upregulated so badly that every cigarette was a violent laxative.  It would have been ok if I could have limited it to the morning, but in the absence of anything else, I was smoking and exploding 3 or 4 times a day (sorry for the visual) and gastro churned constantly,  so I quit.  Totally lost my mind.  Constant rage, anxiety, and panic attacks for months.  My nerves were raw from multiple benzo withdrawals, and the cig quit broke me. 

 

The two schools of thought on tobacco are:

1- If you are protracted, you might need to quit tobacco to get better.  There are a few success stories of people who finally got well 'x' months off tobacco.

2- Do not quit tobacco until you are finished with benzo withdrawal, however long that takes.

 

Note that I say "tobacco" and not nicotine.  If you can vape or patch or chew a nicotine substitute, I can almost guarantee it will not effect your benzo healing.  Nicotine is a stimulant, practically a pure glutamate booster via the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors for which they are named.  Tobacco does dozens of things, most relevantly it boosts excitory amino acid transport (EAAT) and takes glutamate away from the synapses.  This might slow healing in some people, thus the 2 schools of thought.

 

I did what I did because I had no choice.  I would much rather be smoking than taking valium, but I would literally die of GI distress.

 

Hope that helped.

 

Ramcon1

[Guest [Sk...]]

Believe me.  Or don't.  Take a med.  Or don't.  And, "One man's meat is another man's poison," is a very, very old saying because it is true.

 

ramcon1

 

(Kpin, if you are Vineet2 you owe abcd an explanation.  If you are not then please deny his/her claim publicly)

 

Kpin99  actually wrote a post when he came back admitting to being Vineet, 

 

which I also read,   

 

 

i left this forum because of moderation issues. my earlier ID used to be "vineet." i do not intend participating again. i am a lurker. i created this ID to that end.

[/b][/size]

 

 

so abcd is correct in her assertions,  :thumbsup:

 

proven by his own posts back then. :'(

 

Not everyone is game to call  it out.

 

 

Sometimes on here things are not always as they seem  :'(