The two sides of the coin

[[...]]

I kept wondering about this whole mentality about meds, and I wonder if it is really anti-med or is it really "I have been burned pretty bad by benzos and/or other meds, and I am extremely cautious right now in terms of what I take or don't take from now on."?

 

The fact is that despite having their lives ruined by drugs, most people here aren't truly "anti-med". That's just a term that is used by people who are trying to justify their decision to take drugs to slander anyone who looks at their drugs with a critical eye .

 

FG, when i was in acute benzo withdrawal, i had no love for meat or steaks or youtube.

 

if you do not mind my asking -- exactly what are your lingering symptoms of "protracted benzo withdrawal?"

 

FG, please don't mind but i think you should be subject to the same scrutiny you put us through.

 

 

Just ignore his disparaging comments, FG.  Quite hilarious coming from someone with the perfect Facebook life, steel magnate in India with princess wife, perfect kids, money coming out of his wazoo and yet ... he spends more time logged on to BB probably than any other member here ever.  Umm ...

 

Internet Troll

 

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

 

Any other forum and you'd have been banned a LONG time ago, Dude, and you know it, you know you can get away with murder here!  It's all some strange, thrilling joke to you.  You genuinely don't give a crap over whose life may be endangered, solely due to your actions.  Have the ADs numbed you to such an extent that you've totally lost any sense of good judgment and conscience?

 

 

Guidelines & Rules Regarding the Use and Promotion of Medicines and Drugs

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=25835.0 

 

Since most of our members have dependency/addiction issues with benzodiazepines, and our stated mission is to help them quit, we must disallow content that discourages them from this goal, or encourages behaviour that might lead to a new dependency or addiction. Therefore:

 

    Do not promote illegal drug use. Nor should you describe drug paraphernalia, exalt positive experiences, or glorify their use. Please keep descriptions factual and dispassionate.

 

    Do not promote the abuse (or illegal or inappropriate use) of medicines.

 

    Do not promote addictive (or habit forming) substances as withdrawal adjunctives.

 

 

[[Be...]]

I kept wondering about this whole mentality about meds, and I wonder if it is really anti-med or is it really "I have been burned pretty bad by benzos and/or other meds, and I am extremely cautious right now in terms of what I take or don't take from now on."?

 

The fact is that despite having their lives ruined by drugs, most people here aren't truly "anti-med". That's just a term that is used by people who are trying to justify their decision to take drugs to slander anyone who looks at their drugs with a critical eye .

 

FG, when i was in acute benzo withdrawal, i had no love for meat or steaks or youtube.

 

if you do not mind my asking -- exactly what are your lingering symptoms of "protracted benzo withdrawal?"

 

FG, please don't mind but i think you should be subject to the same scrutiny you put us through.

 

 

Just ignore his disparaging comments, FG.  Quite hilarious coming from someone with the perfect Facebook life, steel magnate in India with princess wife, perfect kids, money coming out of his wazoo and yet ... he spends more time logged on to BB probably than any other member here ever.  Umm ...

 

Internet Troll

 

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

 

Any other forum and you'd have been banned a LONG time ago, Dude, and you know it, you know you can get away with murder here!  It's all some strange, thrilling joke to you.  You genuinely don't give a crap over whose life may be endangered, solely due to your actions.  Have the ADs numbed you to such an extent that you've totally lost any sense of good judgment and conscience?

 

 

Guidelines & Rules Regarding the Use and Promotion of Medicines and Drugs

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=25835.0 

 

Since most of our members have dependency/addiction issues with benzodiazepines, and our stated mission is to help them quit, we must disallow content that discourages them from this goal, or encourages behaviour that might lead to a new dependency or addiction. Therefore:

 

    Do not promote illegal drug use. Nor should you describe drug paraphernalia, exalt positive experiences, or glorify their use. Please keep descriptions factual and dispassionate.

 

    Do not promote the abuse (or illegal or inappropriate use) of medicines.

 

    Do not promote addictive (or habit forming) substances as withdrawal adjunctives.

 

abcd this post is way out of line.  You are obviously familiar with the Forum Rules This is a personal attack against a fellow buddie. This will not be tolerated. Inappropriate posts that go against forum should be reported. If you continue to post like this further administrative actions will be taken.

 

Bella

[[Fl...]]

FG, when i was in acute benzo withdrawal, i had no love for meat or steaks or youtube.

 

if you do not mind my asking -- exactly what are your lingering symptoms of "protracted benzo withdrawal?"

 

I am not sure what you are implying but my symptoms aren't a secret. I have fairly significant cognitive issues that are with me most of the time and I still get waves of the poisoned feeling off and on, some benzo belly, some DR, the "life review" thoughts and a few other things. I have made progress but I still have significant cognitive impairment and I never know when the waves of other symptoms are going to hit.

 

What exactly are you trying to scrutinize? I have nothing to hide. I was made extremely ill by these neurotoxic pharmaceutical poisons and as far as I am concerned this issue is closed for me- I will never, ever take another one of these psych drugs again and I would advise other people to look at the big picture before deciding to go down that road.. Although I understand how some people might be desperate it kills me to watch people running right back to the very same drugs that destroyed them because they believe that they have no other option.

 

I really, truly feel sorry for anyone who is in that position.

[[Fi...]]

"Although I understand how some people might be desperate it kills me to watch people running right back to the very same drugs that destroyed them because they believe that they have no other option.

 

I really, truly feel sorry for anyone who is in that position."

 

Sometimes some of us just do what we have to do to survive .. or the alternative I guess.

[[Fl...]]

Sometimes some of us just do what we have to do to survive .. or the alternative I guess.

 

Yes, I understand that. I understand that some people might be weaker, or their symptoms might be worse than mine, or they are in a different place in their life. Any of that could make psych drugs much more tempting.

 

Anyone who is thinking about going back on needs to know the facts though, and dismissing journalists like Robert Whitaker and doctors such as Peter Breegin as "hacks" just because what they say doesn't fit the narrative that you have crafted for yourself is very dangerous.

[[ra...]]

Florida abcd and all,

 

I want to go on record as stating that I am TOTALLY ON BOARD with the fact that in the susceptible, benzo use causes neurological damage.  It is why we are here.  I cannot know for certain, but I am pretty sure my own reinstatement makes me progressively sicker, and I do not know what the future holds for me personally.  Then again, who does?  I think other psyche meds have some danger, but less potential, and less frequent susceptibility than benzos.  I think most well informed doctors would agree with that.

 

I do not think Robert Whitaker and Peter Breggin are hacks because they disagree with me.  I think they are hacks because they are hacks.  They are as far from the truth as a doc who thinks benzos are universally safe.  On any issue there is a far left, a far right, a center, and a truth based on the best available information available at the time.  And only time will tell the truth on most issues.

 

On ours, psyche med use, we have a enough time and statistical data to convince me of the truth:

Benzos are very safe very short term 99.9% of the time.  1 in 1000 are screwed.

Benzos are safe medium term with a medium taper 95% of the time.  5% are going to have a tough time, and 0.1% are screwed.

The longer you are on, and the more withdrawals you have, the more likely you are to be screwed.

 

The same is true for most other psyche meds only they don't do anybody any good very short term, and far less will be screwed far less severely medium to long term.  I often wonder how much of what I feel is protracted tobacco withdrawal.  Tobacco is a pretty potent psyche med; an MAO inhibitor and EAAT and Acetylcholine booster.  There is a board for long-term tobacco withdrawal too.

 

Also, the woman who cannot function without her antidepressant cannot function without her antidepressant.  How will she be doing when she is 70?  We wonlt kno wuntil she is 70, but probably pretty well because unlike benzos, many of the neuroadaptive changes brought on by serotonergic meds are positive changes.  Whether benzos made you GABA downregulated, NMDA upregulated, or both, neither of those things are good things.

 

Florida, I do not know what keeps you going.  I sincerely do not know whether to admire your courage or berate your stubbornness. 

 

If you are getting off benzos for the first or second time, or have been off for less than 2 years, the benzobuddy line is REALLY good advice: Taper off, and hang in there.  It exists because it works more than 90% of the time.

 

However, if you have risk factors such as multiple withdrawals, were polydrugged, or ever reached tolerance, and are sitting there at year 'x' wondering why you are still sick, you are still sick because you have neurological damage that may or may not reverse itself.  Talk about your issues, including your med history, with your doctor, preferably a good neurologist. . .

 

because it is probably only through a very careful application of the right meds and therapies that you are going to get your life back.

 

Florida, you so fall into the second category.  I like you as a human so much, I hope whatever works for me in the next year works for you and the dozens of others here in the second category as well.

 

(For the record, I have purposefully not disclosed the entire plan, because if it works, I am a capitalist and intend to patent it and sell it to treat a variety of conditions.  And if it doesn’t, well then I will see you all on the other side.  No wait!  Stephen Hawking said there is no other side!  Damn.)

 

Ramcon1

 

 

edit: modification of font size

[[Lo...]]

Sometimes some of us just do what we have to do to survive .. or the alternative I guess.

 

Yes, I understand that. I understand that some people might be weaker, or their symptoms might be worse than mine, or they are in a different place in their life. Any of that could make psych drugs much more tempting.

 

Anyone who is thinking about going back on needs to know the facts though, and dismissing journalists like Robert Whitaker and doctors such as Peter Breegin as "hacks" just because what they say doesn't fit the narrative that you have crafted for yourself is very dangerous.

 

Breggin and Whitaker are not hacks. They've done excellent work. But, it comes down to something much simpler. Lack of connection and support. If people don't feel connected and supported and made valued in their life, they will go back on drugs, whether that be benzos, SSRI's, AP's, mood stabilizers, alcohol, coffee, marijuana, cigarettes, cocaine, meth, opiates, etc. etc.

 

But this is beyond the scope of this forum. I think the focus should return to helping people navigating their hellish experiences with benzodiazepines, whether while tapering or post-cessation. That should be the main focus here, and I think more effort should be directed there. There are plenty of forums where people can have basic drug or psych drugs discussions, and so few places where benzo support of any kind is even offered.

[[ra...]]

Loraz,

 

If this were alcohol or opiates I would agree with you 1000%.  But most members took their meds as prescribed and ended up damaged.  They thought they were treating an illness.  Emotiional support will keep someone from going back on opiates, I don't think it will do anything to really help us.

 

To me, this forum serves 2 purposes, active debate and co-miseration.  Perhaps some find comfort in co-miseration, and if s/he does, then this is support.  I personally find co-miseration depressing, and am only here to learn what I can, and share what I learn.

 

(Whitaker and Breggin are quacks ;-) )

 

ramcon1

[[Lo...]]

Loraz,

 

If this were alcohol or opiates I would agree with you 1000%.  But most members took their meds as prescribed and ended up damaged.  They thought they were treating an illness.  Emotiional support will keep someone from going back on opiates, I don't think it will do anything to really help us.

 

I actually somewhat disagree. For someone who is slowly tapering like me and being highly symptomatic, some solid emotional support was key. I had a lot of really good phone support on a peer recovery line with someone who struggled with cocaine. But it didn't matter to me because the man was very supportive and helpful and, as we talked about things while I was very sick, I was actually able to drop the ativan from 0.86mg to 0.75mg. And I went through that phase pretty quickly. Had I been in contact with someone less understanding and supportive, I might have gotten stuck at 0.86mg for much longer. So it does matter, although the results may not be as tangible as with someone recovering from alcohol or opiates.

 

But yes, most members took their benzodiazepines as prescribed, but, aside from very few exceptions, people generally don't start taking these drugs because they are happy. People who are truly happy normally do not take benzos or antidepressants. Something horrible must have happened in their lives. Bad panic or muscle problems or bad insomnia don't appear out of nowhere, and these are the most common reasons for taking a benzodiazepine.

 

But yes, I do get equally annoyed by "Drugs are bad, m'kay" rhetoric as I do get with "Everyone is different" "everyone reacts differently" mental "health" system indoctrination mantras.

[[Ma...]]

Loraz,

 

If this were alcohol or opiates I would agree with you 1000%.  But most members took their meds as prescribed and ended up damaged.  They thought they were treating an illness.  Emotiional support will keep someone from going back on opiates, I don't think it will do anything to really help us.

 

I actually somewhat disagree. For someone who is slowly tapering like me and being highly symptomatic, some solid emotional support was key. I had a lot of really good phone support on a peer recovery line with someone who struggled with cocaine. But it didn't matter to me because the man was very supportive and helpful and, as we talked about things while I was very sick, I was actually able to drop the ativan from 0.86mg to 0.75mg. And I went through that phase pretty quickly. Had I been in contact with someone less understanding and supportive, I might have gotten stuck at 0.86mg for much longer. So it does matter, although the results may not be as tangible as with someone recovering from alcohol or opiates.

 

But yes, most members took their benzodiazepines as prescribed, but, aside from very few exceptions, people generally don't start taking these drugs because they are happy. People who are truly happy normally do not take benzos or antidepressants. Something horrible must have happened in their lives. Bad panic or muscle problems or bad insomnia don't appear out of nowhere, and these are the most common reasons for taking a benzodiazepine.

 

But yes, I do get equally annoyed by "Drugs are bad, m'kay" rhetoric as I do get with "Everyone is different" "everyone reacts differently" mental "health" system indoctrination mantras.

 

Its wonderful that you have made that experience - I agree that real support comes from the heart. Thats why I can help many people suffering from different diseases - because I know what someone needs when he or she is suffering no matter from what, right? Being empathic is the one thing and on the other hand I noticed that it can be extremely helpful to learn strategies that are used for other problems.. I am each time so thankful when I am getting help from someone..and I believe that a lot more than we think  is possible with the right support and people around us. 

[[Lo...]]

Loraz,

 

If this were alcohol or opiates I would agree with you 1000%.  But most members took their meds as prescribed and ended up damaged.  They thought they were treating an illness.  Emotiional support will keep someone from going back on opiates, I don't think it will do anything to really help us.

 

I actually somewhat disagree. For someone who is slowly tapering like me and being highly symptomatic, some solid emotional support was key. I had a lot of really good phone support on a peer recovery line with someone who struggled with cocaine. But it didn't matter to me because the man was very supportive and helpful and, as we talked about things while I was very sick, I was actually able to drop the ativan from 0.86mg to 0.75mg. And I went through that phase pretty quickly. Had I been in contact with someone less understanding and supportive, I might have gotten stuck at 0.86mg for much longer. So it does matter, although the results may not be as tangible as with someone recovering from alcohol or opiates.

 

But yes, most members took their benzodiazepines as prescribed, but, aside from very few exceptions, people generally don't start taking these drugs because they are happy. People who are truly happy normally do not take benzos or antidepressants. Something horrible must have happened in their lives. Bad panic or muscle problems or bad insomnia don't appear out of nowhere, and these are the most common reasons for taking a benzodiazepine.

 

But yes, I do get equally annoyed by "Drugs are bad, m'kay" rhetoric as I do get with "Everyone is different" "everyone reacts differently" mental "health" system indoctrination mantras.

 

Its wonderful that you have made that experience - I agree that real support comes from the heart. Thats why I can help many people suffering from different diseases - because I know what someone needs when he or she is suffering no matter from what, right? Being empathic is the one thing and on the other hand I noticed that it can be extremely helpful to learn strategies that are used for other problems.. I am each time so thankful when I am getting help from someone..and I believe that a lot more than we think  is possible with the right support and people around us. 

 

Thanks, Marigold. Every once in a while, when logical, emotional and social programming falls apart and people actually connect as human beings, that's where the most healing occurs.

[[Ma...]]

 

 

 

Benzos are safe medium term with a medium taper 95% of the time.  5% are going to have a tough time, and 0.1% are screwed.

 

Ramcon1

 

  I assume this is Ashton? Isn't it a bit odd little other data is gathered in this regard?

[[pi...]]

Florida abcd and all,

 

I want to go on record as stating that I am TOTALLY ON BOARD with the fact that in the susceptible, benzo use causes neurological damage.  It is why we are here.  I cannot know for certain, but I am pretty sure my own reinstatement makes me progressively sicker, and I do not know what the future holds for me personally.  Then again, who does?  I think other psyche meds have some danger, but less potential, and less frequent susceptibility than benzos.  I think most well informed doctors would agree with that.

 

I do not think Robert Whitaker and Peter Breggin are hacks because they disagree with me.  I think they are hacks because they are hacks.  They are as far from the truth as a doc who thinks benzos are universally safe.  On any issue there is a far left, a far right, a center, and a truth based on the best available information available at the time.  And only time will tell the truth on most issues.

 

On ours, psyche med use, we have a enough time and statistical data to convince me of the truth:

Benzos are very safe very short term 99.9% of the time.  1 in 1000 are screwed.

Benzos are safe medium term with a medium taper 95% of the time.  5% are going to have a tough time, and 0.1% are screwed.

The longer you are on, and the more withdrawals you have, the more likely you are to be screwed.

 

The same is true for most other psyche meds only they don't do anybody any good very short term, and far less will be screwed far less severely medium to long term.  I often wonder how much of what I feel is protracted tobacco withdrawal.  Tobacco is a pretty potent psyche med; an MAO inhibitor and EAAT and Acetylcholine booster.  There is a board for long-term tobacco withdrawal too.

 

Also, the woman who cannot function without her antidepressant cannot function without her antidepressant.  How will she be doing when she is 70?  We wonlt kno wuntil she is 70, but probably pretty well because unlike benzos, many of the neuroadaptive changes brought on by serotonergic meds are positive changes.  Whether benzos made you GABA downregulated, NMDA upregulated, or both, neither of those things are good things.

 

Florida, I do not know what keeps you going.  I sincerely do not know whether to admire your courage or berate your stubbornness. 

 

If you are getting off benzos for the first or second time, or have been off for less than 2 years, the benzobuddy line is REALLY good advice: Taper off, and hang in there.  It exists because it works more than 90% of the time.

 

However, if you have risk factors such as multiple withdrawals, were polydrugged, or ever reached tolerance, and are sitting there at year 'x' wondering why you are still sick, you are still sick because you have neurological damage that may or may not reverse itself.  Talk about your issues, including your med history, with your doctor, preferably a good neurologist. . .

 

because it is probably only through a very careful application of the right meds and therapies that you are going to get your life back.

 

Florida, you so fall into the second category.  I like you as a human so much, I hope whatever works for me in the next year works for you and the dozens of others here in the second category as well.

 

(For the record, I have purposefully not disclosed the entire plan, because if it works, I am a capitalist and intend to patent it and sell it to treat a variety of conditions.  And if it doesn’t, well then I will see you all on the other side.  No wait!  Stephen Hawking said there is no other side!  Damn.)

 

Ramcon1

 

 

edit: modification of font size

 

Ramcon,

 

Writing your post, or at least some of it, with bolded large font size is considered "shouting" and is disallowed on this forum.  Additionally, it is difficult for some people who have visual issues during tapering and withdrawal to see such large bolded print. Please consider others when writing your posts and use standard font size in the future. Thank you.

 

pianogirl

[[ra...]]

Piano,

 

Sorry. I wasn't shouting.  I disagree that using larger font is shouting.  I think it is merely pointing to the idea that the poster is putting emphasis on a particular part of a post.  Members do it all the time.  This thread, which I stetted, took so many odd turns, I wanted to be crystal clear about what my original intention was.

 

The benzo buddy message is good, but if it doesn't work for you, think outside the box.

 

I gave two examples: someone fed up with psyche meds, and someone whose life was saved by them.  Ashton took such a strong stance against psyche meds, and how pharma is out for profit.  In my examples, tthe anti-med person was out for profit, emphasizing that even a good method can have flaws at its core, and if the benzo buddy message failed you, its core failed you. Don't be afraid to think outside the box.

 

That kept getting lost, so I kept bolding it.

 

It displeases the moderators and it is your board so I won't do it again, but I wonder why then is font size a choice? (You do not have to answer)

 

Ramcon1

[[Lo...]]

https://beyondmeds.com/2014/05/24/psych-drugs-kill-save/

 

Psych drugs kill vs Psych drugs save lives. What if both are true?

MAY 24, 2014 BY MONICA CASSANI

 

Sometimes I happen upon folks talking about the work on this blog when I’m out and about on the internets. The other day for example I found a google group full of people who were largely inspired by the work on this blog. It was a lovely and surreal moment as I accidentally eaves dropped on their comments of gratitude about having found Beyond Meds.

 

Today instead I stumbled upon a comment in which the person mused the opposite. She was not at all comfortable with my message:

 

Hrmmmm…read over this lady’s pages and I just can’t get behind anything she says. I think it’s IMMENSELY dangerous to suggest that the bulk of psychiatric disorders aren’t even illnesses, and that psych meds are hokum. Clearly, she was over medicated and under treated as a teenager. However, I think this “withdrawal symptom” is a load of BS and is, in actuality, her disorder in an untreated and worsening state. Do you withdrawal from meds initially, sure, but for years? I doubt it. And it’s not as if I don’t have experience here. I was on some serious meds as a teen and young adult, and like her, wasn’t getting anywhere but sedated and deadened. However, finding the right meds takes time and a good doctor. I finally got there and found out that my mood swings and sensitivity didn’t have to be the way I lived my life. Without my meds, I can honestly say I wouldn’t be here.

 

The only real issue here is that she imagines her experience is somehow universal. We are all individuals and when we forget that we are potentially dangerous to anyone for whom we think we know better than they do.

 

I am not this woman and she is not me. There is room for both of our experiences. When we project our experience onto someone else we cease to respect them. We cease to acknowledge them as a separate person.

 

Let us stop doing that to one another. I won’t do it to this woman who found that medications saved her life. I ask that she and others like her not do it to those of us who have been gravely harmed by the very same medications.

 

And to those of us who’ve been harmed I send great big hugs and love because it’s doctors and a medical system who believes as this woman does that continues to make it difficult for us to heal once we’ve been iatrogenically injured.

 

In response to her concern that I am in a worsening state I can only say that I am in a state of deep gratitude for the lovely healing machine that my body is as my improvements take on an exponential pace. Everyday I can do more now and also everyday now I understand more about my body/mind and spirit.

 

I am in awe of this life we have been given. Let us respect the path, however it unfolds, in each and every one of us.

[[pi...]]

Piano,

 

Sorry. I wasn't shouting.  I disagree that using larger font is shouting.  I think it is merely pointing to the idea that the poster is putting emphasis on a particular part of a post.  Members do it all the time.  This thread, which I stetted, took so many odd turns, I wanted to be crystal clear about what my original intention was.

 

The benzo buddy message is good, but if it doesn't work for you, think outside the box.

 

I gave two examples: someone fed up with psyche meds, and someone whose life was saved by them.  Ashton took such a strong stance against psyche meds, and how pharma is out for profit.  In my examples, tthe anti-med person was out for profit, emphasizing that even a good method can have flaws at its core, and if the benzo buddy message failed you, its core failed you. Don't be afraid to think outside the box.

 

That kept getting lost, so I kept bolding it.

 

It displeases the moderators and it is your board so I won't do it again, but I wonder why then is font size a choice? (You do not have to answer)

 

Ramcon1

 

Typing in all capital letters, large font and bold is considered 'shouting' on the internet and it is rude.  It's not that it displeases us personally, but it has a negative impact on our members, who are our first priority.

 

pianogirl

[[ra...]]

Loraz,

 

That was a great reference and exactly what I was trying to say when I started this thread.

 

We are all different.  What is REALLY amazing is that the genetic difference between two completely unrelated people is less than 0.1%.  That means the key to unlocking illness lies in only 0.1% of our genes. 

And yes there is epigenetics, all of those experiences that change the expression of those genes, but that affects the same 0.1% of our genome.

 

0.1% is the difference between a person who will walk away from 10 year Xanax use and walk away without a scratch and someone who will take it for a month and be sick for years.

 

0.1% is the difference between the depressed or bipolar who would have no life without his/her meds and the happiest person in the world.

 

Science will get us to where we can and will help people without years of "mistakes."

 

Piano,

In this thread alone, 4 people besides me used bold or larger font.  You had to find a way to chastise my criticism of the benzobuddy/Ashton line without doing it out right.  It is ironic that you chose to chastise the part in which I most "loudly" agreed with it.

 

I have a lot to do in the coming months, and I think I am about done with benzobuddies for a while.

 

I wish you all good luck.  See y'all in a few months.

 

Ramcon1

[[Be...]]

Piano,

In this thread alone, 4 people besides me used bold or larger font.  You had to find a way to chastise my criticism of the benzobuddy/Ashton line without doing it out right.  It is ironic that you chose to chastise the part in which I most "loudly" agreed with it.

 

 

Hello Ramcon-

 

I am sorry you feel this way.

 

We simply do not have the time or resources to read through every single post on every thread, in every board.  We do not randomly target anyone. Your post was reported. We are a small team trying to moderate a very large forum.

 

We would deeply appreciate all buddies to be mindful of posting extra large, bolded posts as it bothers some sensitive readers eyes and can be interpreted a rude.

 

Ramcon1, if you have any further issue with this, please fill out a ticket at the help desk.

 

Bella

[[Fl...]]

Psych drugs kill vs Psych drugs save lives. What if both are true?

MAY 24, 2014 BY MONICA CASSANI

 

Of course both are true. But here's the deal. I would be willing to bet that there are a lot more people who are harmed in some way by these drugs than whose lives are saved by them.

 

No, I don't believe that 75% of people suffer from serious, long term symptoms after stopping the drugs. We are certainly outliers. But how many people truly have their lives saved by them?

 

What no one seems to be talking about though is the big chunk of people who fall somewhere in the middle. Those 80% or whatever who do not see some kind of miracle effect and who also do not end up bedridden for years due to some kind of neurological damage. What about those people?

 

I took AD's off and on while I was on the benzo and my experience was that the benefits were limited and the side effects were horrible. Did it do what it was supposed to do? Kinda sorta. But at the same time I was a numbed down walking zombie and my overall quality of life suffered.

 

How many people take these drugs just because their doctor says "I think you need to be on something" (my doctor's exact words). The side effects are awful and the positive effects limited but the good patient goes along with the program because that's what good patients do!

 

I was lucky enough to eventually realize that the drugs were causing more problems than they were solving, but how many people end up in that viscous downward spiral of polydrugging, trying to chase the elusive magical cure, all the while getting sicker and sicker?

 

Way, way too many.

[[Lo...]]

No, I don't believe that 75% of people suffer from serious, long term symptoms after stopping the drugs. We are certainly outliers. But how many people truly have their lives saved by them?

 

I doubt that people here are outliers . Maybe this is the more vocal bunch or people that were lucky to have had help in their lives so they did not end up dead from benzos directly or indirectly. But hardly outliers. Just because many people are not registered on this forum, doesn't mean they are not suffering some pretty horrible psychiatric drug effects. Maybe forums are just not their thing. There are other non-mainstream sources of help other than forums like this one.

 

 

[[Lo...]]

No, I don't believe that 75% of people suffer from serious, long term symptoms after stopping the drugs. We are certainly outliers. But how many people truly have their lives saved by them?

 

I doubt that people here are outliers . Maybe this is the more vocal bunch or people that were lucky to have had help in their lives so they did not end up dead from benzos directly or indirectly. But hardly outliers. Just because many people are not registered on this forum, doesn't mean they are not suffering some pretty horrible psychiatric drug effects. Maybe forums are just not their thing. There are other non-mainstream sources of help other than forums like this one.

 

Another thing is that it just doesn't add up. If psychiatric drugs are causing an epidemic of disability, as Robert Whitaker puts it in his book, the word "epidemic" indicates that psychiatric drug harm happens to a significant number of people. Federal disability in the United States is extremely hard to get for both physical and mental health cases and many people do not make it to their hearing and end up not surviving.

 

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article188307729.html

 

I don't think of myself as an outlier at all. I think this could have happened to anyone given the "right set" of circumstances. I don't think I'd been destined (dare I say doomed?) to end up this way at all. It was all perfectly avoidable for myself and so many other people. Too many people wanting to create narratives about my own situation and I find those narratives inaccurate in so many ways. I've noticed in real life that many have a great need to "rewrite history" once someone falls upon hard times, whether caused by psych drugs or other calamities of life in general.

[[Fl...]]

I doubt that people here are outliers . Maybe this is the more vocal bunch or people that were lucky to have had help in their lives so they did not end up dead from benzos directly or indirectly. But hardly outliers. Just because many people are not registered on this forum, doesn't mean they are not suffering some pretty horrible psychiatric drug effects. Maybe forums are just not their thing. There are other non-mainstream sources of help other than forums like this one.

 

We are absolutely outliers. That is the only way this problem is able to exist. We can speculate all day long how many people are grievously harmed by these drugs and we will never really know, but one thing we can be sure of is that if it weren't a relatively rare thing we wouldn't be met with the skepticism we get from the medical community and the general public.

 

People aren't dumb, they can recognize patterns when there is enough evidence of a pattern. And there is no big conspiracy, it is just rare enough that relatively few doctors will ever bother to question conventional wisdom about these drugs.

 

This problem is much bigger than the medical community will ever acknowledge but it it is also a lot smaller than it might seem to those of us who are experiencing it.

[[ra...]]

I promised I would stay away, and I will, but I just wanted to say to Florida that we got into it pretty harshly in this thread.  I might have said somethings that were hurtful to you personally.  I never want to be that guy. and I apologize.

 

And I also have to say that of all the things you have ever posted, that last post is the one with which I agree the most.

 

Ramcon1

[[Lo...]]

I doubt that people here are outliers . Maybe this is the more vocal bunch or people that were lucky to have had help in their lives so they did not end up dead from benzos directly or indirectly. But hardly outliers. Just because many people are not registered on this forum, doesn't mean they are not suffering some pretty horrible psychiatric drug effects. Maybe forums are just not their thing. There are other non-mainstream sources of help other than forums like this one.

 

We are absolutely outliers. That is the only way this problem is able to exist. We can speculate all day long how many people are grievously harmed by these drugs and we will never really know, but one thing we can be sure of is that if it weren't a relatively rare thing we wouldn't be met with the skepticism we get from the medical community and the general public.

 

People aren't dumb, they can recognize patterns when there is enough evidence of a pattern. And there is no big conspiracy, it is just rare enough that relatively few doctors will ever bother to question conventional wisdom about these drugs.

 

This problem is much bigger than the medical community will ever acknowledge but it it is also a lot smaller than it might seem to those of us who are experiencing it.

 

Fair enough, but then again, who is this "we" that you keep referring to, FloridaGuy? I don't think that this problem is rare at all. People aren't dumb, but the majority of people are either emotionally or intellectually unequipped to understand this (i.e. "I don't want to know because it scares the hell out of me" or "I don't want to hear about this because it is just not possible. Please show me any scientific studies to back up your claims.").

 

By intellectually unequipped, I don't mean lacking in intelligence. What I mean is just being unable to entertain the idea that this level of suffering can be caused by benzos and psychiatric drugs, as well as the attempts to come off of them. Very few people will also be emotionally and intellectually equipped to even entertain the idea that suffering can extend for months and yeas after taking the last dose of any psychiatric drugs.

 

Again. People are not dumb, but most people are just not equipped to understand these truths. And then, these are also hard and "inconvenient" truths that nobody really wants to hear. Not to mention that there is not much money (or any) to be made by exploring these truths. Better to write off Aunt Joyce and uncle Larry as just crazy, nuts and "not quite there" or suffering with dementia.

 

Also, before you'd taken any of the psych drugs, did you actually even have a slightest inkling that something like this would happen to you? My guess is "no", because why would you otherwise sign up for years of suffering? People are not masochists. I am certainly not.

 

I spoke with someone that I knew from before this happened to me. This person had been on benzos for short amount of time, stopped and, once I opened up about what I was dealing with said something along the lines of "I don't want to take them, because I know where this leads". But then, later on I found from her that her mother had been agoraphobic and on benzos for decades.

 

So, there it is. Direct evidence. She saw a family member take benzos long-term and become agoraphobic. It was direct observable evidence one could make informed conclusions from.

 

In the absence of such direct evidence staring into your face, how would you have known? Even if you somehow knew that there could have been a problem before you started on the Rx drugs, where would you have looked? Would you even have known where to start?

 

You are a smart guy, Florida Guy, but I do think that many people here make a mistake of imagining that they would have known had they researched this more. But that's just drug or post-drug induced depressive rumination that doesn't have much basis in reality. Looking at the initial situations that led to the Rx drugs of yesterday from a much more knowledgeable position today. You would have probably known way better with the knowledge you have right now, but you didn't have it back then, or otherwise you would not have ended up in this predicament.

[Guest [Sk...]]

 

We are absolutely outliers.

That is the only way this problem is able to exist.

We can speculate all day long how many people are grievously harmed

by these drugs and we will never really know,

but one thing we can be sure of is that if it weren't a relatively rare thing

we wouldn't be met with the skepticism we get from the medical community and the general public.

 

People aren't dumb, they can recognize patterns when there is enough evidence of a pattern.

And there is no big conspiracy,

it is just rare enough that relatively few doctors will ever bother to question conventional wisdom about these drugs.

 

This problem is much bigger than the medical community will ever acknowledge

but it it is also a lot smaller than it might seem to those of us who are experiencing it.

 

well put FG