Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[sh...]]

 

 

  I think builder said 1ml PG per 1mg of Valium.  So 10ml of PG for 10ml of V should be fine. Then add 90ml of water. 

sharkey

 

Just FYI, builder always recommends 2ml solvent for each mg of benzo.

 

Ex:  10mg V + 20ml PG + 80ml water.

 

Ok cool.  Sorry man.  Listen to builder on that one gardenlady.

 

Sharkey

[[fi...]]

Thanks for the welcoming gardener99, just realized there's two garden type names on this forum! Likely more...

 

So far so good with the 7.7mg with tablets and liquids **knock on wood, cross fingers and toes**. I definitely felt symptoms right away, which I thought was strange, wasn't psychosomatic, for about 3 days and it's kind of leveled off. Nothing really anxiety related, but mild tremors and flu like symptoms, hot and cold switching. One thing I've noticed is fatigue, I still go to the gym 3-5 days a week, but the fatigue is bone crushing. Anyone else experience this? Before this, I would drink some coffee and hit the gym and be ok. Coffee has been out since the incident occurred, which I sorely miss. I tried decaf and it was ok, tried dark chocolate and it too was ok.

 

Let me tell you, as a former medic, we were taught very very little about benzos. I have family who are doctors and they say the same thing. There seems to be this thought of  55% have problems quitting, 45% don't, and a lot of people never want to quit. So those of us that do, for one reason or another are really up shi* creak so to say, unless we have a Dr. that understands, and luckily I do. Like all the best say, slow slow slow is the way down.

 

I look forward to keeping in touch. I went over some old posts of DocB and Uttm, and they have been of great help. As well as most of your's.  Thanks everyone

[[sh...]]

Thanks for the welcoming gardener99, just realized there's two garden type names on this forum! Likely more...

 

So far so good with the 7.7mg with tablets and liquids **knock on wood, cross fingers and toes**. I definitely felt symptoms right away, which I thought was strange, wasn't psychosomatic, for about 3 days and it's kind of leveled off. Nothing really anxiety related, but mild tremors and flu like symptoms, hot and cold switching. One thing I've noticed is fatigue, I still go to the gym 3-5 days a week, but the fatigue is bone crushing. Anyone else experience this? Before this, I would drink some coffee and hit the gym and be ok. Coffee has been out since the incident occurred, which I sorely miss. I tried decaf and it was ok, tried dark chocolate and it too was ok.

 

Let me tell you, as a former medic, we were taught very very little about benzos. I have family who are doctors and they say the same thing. There seems to be this thought of  55% have problems quitting, 45% don't, and a lot of people never want to quit. So those of us that do, for one reason or another are really up shi* creak so to say, unless we have a Dr. that understands, and luckily I do. Like all the best say, slow slow slow is the way down.

 

I look forward to keeping in touch. I went over some old posts of DocB and Uttm, and they have been of great help. As well as most of your's.  Thanks everyone

 

Fatigue was a major symptom during my taper also.  Going to the gym will help, so just keep going!  It's a great way to prove that the drug doesn't control you, you control it!! 

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[ga...]]

I am planning on starting a DLMT tomorrow.  I am at 2.5 mg valium and have been dry cutting...the last one from 3 mg to 2.5 mg was brutal.  If I do a combo dry and liquid, do you think I'll feel the crossover?  My plan is to take 2 mg dry and then taper .5 mg in liquid and try for .03 mg cut per day.  My solution will be 10 mg valium mixed with 20 mls PG added to 80 mls water.  This yields a 10:1 ratio where 1 ml = .1 mg.  So, my cuts should go as follows:

 

Day 1:  2 mg dry + .47mg as 4.7 mls

Day 2:  2 mg dry + .44mg as 4.4 mls

Day 3:  2 mg dry + .41 mg as 4.1 mls

 

Does this seem to make sense?  Wondering if I will feel the switch from all dry to partially dry.  Would love to know of others' experiences.  I realize this is an aggressive rate and I may not be able to sustain it, but I won't know unless I try.  I really need off this stuff as I have felt terrible the whole time.  I didn't stabilize even with a 4 month hold at 5 mg. 

 

Thanks in advance and wishes for successful tapering to all!

 

Hey gardenlady,

 

Your plan looks great to me.  The math is correct.  <Corrected> 20ml PG for 10mg Valium is the correct ratio. As far as knowing if the pill is dissolved, Gardner already said it, the benzo will dissolve quickly without having to crush it.  The fillers of the pill will settle to the bottom and will never dissolve.

 

I think you will do fine be switching partially to liquid.  Just switch to liquid and stay at .5mg for about 3 or 4 days and may sure there are no bad effects before you start cutting to make sure.  You may also want to work up to .3mg a day and build some confidence.  Do .1mg for a few days then .2mg for a week then try .3mg a day.  Just feel it out.  You will find a rate you are comfortable with.

 

Let me know if you have any other questions!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

Sharkey, Thanks many times over for your kind response!  I like your plan for easing over to a partial liquid taper.  I've been in a very bad way since cutting from 3 mg to 2.5 mg.....the terror and fear are off the charts and so have been apprehensive about this change.    Just to clarify, did you intend to suggest cutting to .01 mg, then .02 mg and then .03 mg vs .1 mg, .2 mg & .3 mg?  At 2.5 mg, do you think I'm too ambitious to think I can cut .03 mg per day given the difficult time that I'm already having? 

 

I didn't expect to have such a rough time and thought I was getting close to the end, but now I see that I could be quite a ways off.  And, as rough as it is now, I'm dreading what it will be like when I jump.  I'm afraid I won't be able to function.  Sorry to sound so negative, but this is really scary, especially since I'm 65, on my own with no one to help. 

 

Thanks again for your thoughtful and helpful advice. 

[[sh...]]

I am planning on starting a DLMT tomorrow.  I am at 2.5 mg valium and have been dry cutting...the last one from 3 mg to 2.5 mg was brutal.  If I do a combo dry and liquid, do you think I'll feel the crossover?  My plan is to take 2 mg dry and then taper .5 mg in liquid and try for .03 mg cut per day.  My solution will be 10 mg valium mixed with 20 mls PG added to 80 mls water.  This yields a 10:1 ratio where 1 ml = .1 mg.  So, my cuts should go as follows:

 

Day 1:  2 mg dry + .47mg as 4.7 mls

Day 2:  2 mg dry + .44mg as 4.4 mls

Day 3:  2 mg dry + .41 mg as 4.1 mls

 

Does this seem to make sense?  Wondering if I will feel the switch from all dry to partially dry.  Would love to know of others' experiences.  I realize this is an aggressive rate and I may not be able to sustain it, but I won't know unless I try.  I really need off this stuff as I have felt terrible the whole time.  I didn't stabilize even with a 4 month hold at 5 mg. 

 

Thanks in advance and wishes for successful tapering to all!

 

Hey gardenlady,

 

Your plan looks great to me.  The math is correct.  <Corrected> 20ml PG for 10mg Valium is the correct ratio. As far as knowing if the pill is dissolved, Gardner already said it, the benzo will dissolve quickly without having to crush it.  The fillers of the pill will settle to the bottom and will never dissolve.

 

I think you will do fine be switching partially to liquid.  Just switch to liquid and stay at .5mg for about 3 or 4 days and may sure there are no bad effects before you start cutting to make sure.  You may also want to work up to .3mg a day and build some confidence.  Do .1mg for a few days then .2mg for a week then try .3mg a day.  Just feel it out.  You will find a rate you are comfortable with.

 

Let me know if you have any other questions!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

Sharkey, Thanks many times over for your kind response!  I like your plan for easing over to a partial liquid taper.  I've been in a very bad way since cutting from 3 mg to 2.5 mg.....the terror and fear are off the charts and so have been apprehensive about this change.    Just to clarify, did you intend to suggest cutting to .01 mg, then .02 mg and then .03 mg vs .1 mg, .2 mg & .3 mg?  At 2.5 mg, do you think I'm too ambitious to think I can cut .03 mg per day given the difficult time that I'm already having? 

 

I didn't expect to have such a rough time and thought I was getting close to the end, but now I see that I could be quite a ways off.  And, as rough as it is now, I'm dreading what it will be like when I jump.  I'm afraid I won't be able to function.  Sorry to sound so negative, but this is really scary, especially since I'm 65, on my own with no one to help. 

 

Thanks again for your thoughtful and helpful advice.

 

Yes sorry for my typo.  I will correct the post.

 

Many people have a hard time with those last mgs of Valium.  The good news is that if you taper it slow enough the jump shouldn't be that bad.  My post jump experience wasn't pleasant but wasn't horrible.  It was definitely harder to cut from 1mg K to .5mg K than it was to jump after a slow daily taper.  Of course that was my experience.  I definitely feel you should work up your cut rate.  In the long run it will build confidence and also help you work past that .5mg cut you are still feeling. 

 

Both my big cuts in the beginning of my taper, the major symptoms lasted about 3 weeks each.  The minor nagging symptoms for me lasted my entire taper but got better as I got to lower doses.  I hope this helps!

 

Stay strong!

Sharkey

[[ga...]]

 

 

  I think builder said 1ml PG per 1mg of Valium.  So 10ml of PG for 10ml of V should be fine. Then add 90ml of water. 

sharkey

 

Just FYI, builder always recommends 2ml solvent for each mg of benzo.

 

Ex:  10mg V + 20ml PG + 80ml water.

 

For the Librium people, I'm going to insert that I use 3ml of 80 poof vodka for 5mg of Librium. Long, long time ago somebody on this thread found that somewhere for me.

[[ga...]]

Found where my 3ml idea came from. SG57 found a table that said 2ml would be the bare minimum for 5mg. I used the 4ml for while, then went to 3ml and found it was adequate. Have been doing 3ml per 5mg capsule ever since.

 

Pure ethanol will dissolve 19.5mg/ml Librium, but 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg/ml.  Your caps are 5mg each I think, so I'd use at least 4ml or more.

 

Librium is the one with a confusing story.  Past BB members seem to have been able to use plain water to dissolve it (look up Oscar), but the data from Jouyban says water only dissolves .11mg/ml.  If you remember, we then were researching chlordiazepoxide HCl  - which has a much higher solubility in water - and were wondering if this was the actual dispensed drug.  Here's the solubility data from Jouyban...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.40

 

If .11mg/ml is right you'd need a bare minimum of 46ml vodka/water to keep it dissolved.  I'd use at least 100ml.

 

Thanks SG. You said 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg L. But how much 80 proof vodka? I don't understand where the numbers came from. And if I don't understand, I will fret!

 

Can I do this: dissolve one 5mg capsule in 10ml vodka (an easy line to see on my cylinder) and add 90ml water, pour into my jar and stir?

 

Then, if I have the L dissolved, do I need to shake it in a leak-proof bottle or is that only if it's a suspension? So far I don't have a leak-proof bottle of the correct size.

 

I'm hoping to be able to stir it up and store similar to the way I was doing it with my wonderful-evil-just-add-water Xanax solution. I want to make this is as similar to what I was doing before as possible. I won't be having my kids to help me with mixing up my doses any more. I need to keep this as simple and familiar as possible. I'm pretty sure I totally messed up my dosing attempts yesterday.   And my anxiety has been high and my sleep poor lately, so easy is what I'm looking for.

 

Thanks.

 

Gard

 

2.9mg per ml - so 1ml will dissolve 2.9mg and 2ml will dissolve 5.8mg.  So 2ml is near bare minimum for a 5mg cap.  I think 4ml would be fine and 10ml would also be fine, but is overkill.  These numbers came from Jouyban, which is the data in the link.  I consider it the most reliable data we have for benzo solubility.  The lab procedures were careful and spelled out in his papers, which are available online in full text.  It's like he knew we would need it.

 

The procedure you mentioned sounds fine, but 10ml might be overkill.  Once it is dissolved I don't think it is necessary to shake or stir again.

[[Li...]]

GARD...can't thank you enough for posting in regards to dissolving Librium!  I will go with 2ml of vodka for now and pray for the best.  I swear that when I go over that I react to the alcohol.  Or  maybe it's just a fluke thing...idk.  I do take the generic which is Chlordiazepoxide.  I'm feeling quite awesome again so braving the alcohol tonight and will see what happens.  I haven't tapered yet, just been drinking my whole 5 mgs to let my body get used to liquid form...glad I'm hanging in there with it as LT is the easiest way to go for capsules it seems.  I know you are so busy and I can't thank you enough for all the advice/ information you have given me on Librium and tapering.  If I do good on 2ml of vodka I may do 3 ml.  I'm just so sensitive. 

 

I'm getting a flu shot this week so I'm still holding at my full liquid dose for a couple more weeks then start tapering down. 

 

Good luck to you on your taper and thanks again so much! 

 

BTW...I've just been using water for the most part and I let it sit for awhile..like 15 minutes and it was all clear and only a little of the filler at the bottom.  Seems like it's working quite well with just water but again someone has mentioned doing just water may affect the potency so will try with alcohol.  I was amazed tho at how clear the water was.

[[ga...]]

Hi, Lib. You're welcome. There's L info on this thread from way back when I was the one asking all the questions.

 

I think you're on the right track. Just mixing up the dose and drinking it for awhile is a good idea. It will give you both practice and knowledge of how your body responds to liquid.

 

I don't understand how the potency would change with water vs. alcohol. I wouldn't think so. I'm just conflicted about whether or not small amount of water will dissolve the L. Some of what's sitting on the bottom of your water could be undissolved L. But even if you have some undissolved L, if you shake vigorously and pull quickly you are likely to get a fairly even pull. Even though I "know" my L is dissolved, I always shake right before the pull anyway. Can't hurt and might help.

 

Hope your flu shot goes OK.

 

One day closer to freedom!

 

Gard

[[Ul...]]

Hi....I just started using Propylene Glycol to make a suspension....I am wondering if someone can tell me how many mL to use of it in my water? Thank you in advance!

 

Hey BenzoWarrior,

 

If you are doing titration, you probably want to dissolve the pills in about 2ml of PG then add water.  I would suggest 98ml or 198ml to make a 100ml or 200ml solution then you can start reducing from there.  Let me know if you have questions.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

The Sharkenheimer is back, baby!!!!

 

Jeff

 

 

 

Aren't I supposed to say "Geaux Tigers" or something now?

 

Hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!! We'll convert you to a Tiger before this whole taper mess is over

[[ga...]]

Hi....I just started using Propylene Glycol to make a suspension....I am wondering if someone can tell me how many mL to use of it in my water? Thank you in advance!

 

Hey BenzoWarrior,

 

If you are doing titration, you probably want to dissolve the pills in about 2ml of PG then add water.  I would suggest 98ml or 198ml to make a 100ml or 200ml solution then you can start reducing from there.  Let me know if you have questions.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

The Sharkenheimer is back, baby!!!!

 

Jeff

 

 

 

Aren't I supposed to say "Geaux Tigers" or something now?

 

Hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!! We'll convert you to a Tiger before this whole taper mess is over

:laugh:

[[...]]

Moving along slowly on my DMT with Librium. A lot of my main sxs have been at bay lately which is amazing but now I just got a new one for the past week that I never had before- tinnitus. My cut rate is very very conservative and I was actually hoping to ramp it up a bit. Is it normal to get this new sx? Does it mean I should hold- like will it go away/improve if I do? Or do I just keep going bc the other sxs are so much better? I'm confused on whether to hold or keep cutting.

 

I've been doing DMT for 2 months now. Thanks for input!!

[[Va...]]

Moving along slowly on my DMT with Librium. A lot of my main sxs have been at bay lately which is amazing but now I just got a new one for the past week that I never had before- tinnitus. My cut rate is very very conservative and I was actually hoping to ramp it up a bit. Is it normal to get this new sx? Does it mean I should hold- like will it go away/improve if I do? Or do I just keep going bc the other sxs are so much better? I'm confused on whether to hold or keep cutting.

 

I've been doing DMT for 2 months now. Thanks for input!!

It sounds pretty normal to me libr. I always pause the taper a few days if the sxs start to increase.  —V

[[...]]

Thanks V- but my other sxs that Ive had the whole time are not increasing. It's just that I suddenly got this new one- tinnitus. Do you still think I should hold?

[[ga...]]

Moving along slowly on my DMT with Librium. A lot of my main sxs have been at bay lately which is amazing but now I just got a new one for the past week that I never had before- tinnitus. My cut rate is very very conservative and I was actually hoping to ramp it up a bit. Is it normal to get this new sx? Does it mean I should hold- like will it go away/improve if I do? Or do I just keep going bc the other sxs are so much better? I'm confused on whether to hold or keep cutting.

 

I've been doing DMT for 2 months now. Thanks for input!!

It sounds pretty normal to me libr. I always pause the taper a few days if the sxs start to increase.  —V

 

I pause, too, when a symptoms gets worse and hang on or if I'm expecting an increase in life stress. And, yes, I would hold for a new symptom if it is bothersome. Sounds like the tinnitus has been hanging on for a bit and bothering you. Being on a slow benzo, I pause for 2 weeks if I think I need to insert a hold. In fact, I have been planning to hold through all of November and December just because of all the holidays and birthdays in the family during those two months. Not even going to wait for my symptoms to ramp up. Going to head then off at the pass.

[[Li...]]

Libr....in my FB group, tinnitus is one of the most common symptoms it seems.  Most keep going but if it gets bad they hold.  I've had some kinda noise in my ear lately but no ringing yet.  I would hold for just a little and make sure it doesn't get worse and then continue on.  But it sounds like you are doing well on the DMT. 

 

GARD....Good idea about holding during the holidays and here I am fixing to taper down....lol.  Expecting I will have to hold a lot but praying for the best.  I simply need to get on with this.  I'm still drinking my liquid librium at full dose.  I'm stuck with doing just water and med.  My hand is going to fall off from all the shaking! 

[[...]]

Thx. Lib18- do ppl on FB find the tinnitus gets better if they hold?

 

Is it "normal" to get a new sx like this during MT even as other sxs are improving?? It's just so weird.

Kinda freaks me out that other sxs will just suddenly appear too.... I kinda thought w/ MT, if the rate was slow enough, nothing new would pop up.

[[Li...]]

From what I've read they don't normally hold unless it's a really loud ringing.  But it's safest to hold I would think to make sure it doesn't get worse. 

 

I would say it's very normal to get new symptoms and have others improve or go away.  I've read that way too many times.  Gaba can affect so much and when it's destabilized different symptoms come at different times...some go, some stay and new ones pop up.  Very common. It just means you are healing with every little cut you make.  That's one of the first things I found out when joining the group.  Hang in there!  I'm sure I'll be popping in with all my NEW symptoms.  Today is a little burning....have had it before but never knew what it was.  My Librium levels in my blood are a lot lower after getting off BC pills and then I switched to liquid Librium, got my usual WD symptoms and now I get a new one today...how fun.  Brain trying to achieve Homeostasis I guess. 

[[Ul...]]

Moving along slowly on my DMT with Librium. A lot of my main sxs have been at bay lately which is amazing but now I just got a new one for the past week that I never had before- tinnitus. My cut rate is very very conservative and I was actually hoping to ramp it up a bit. Is it normal to get this new sx? Does it mean I should hold- like will it go away/improve if I do? Or do I just keep going bc the other sxs are so much better? I'm confused on whether to hold or keep cutting.

 

I've been doing DMT for 2 months now. Thanks for input!!

 

Holy cow, my ears have been ringing for 2 yrs and 3 months as a result of my brutally slow taper. They ring 24/7 but really amp up if anxiety kicks into high gear. I've held numerous times for various things such as surgery, but nothing has touched my tinnitus to this point. I guess every human body is just flat out different. I'm just getting going again after holding due to back pain and reinjury. We'll see. Good luck with your tinnitus!! Maybe it'll come and go rather than hang around consistently. Doesn't matter...it'll all be over someday

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

Moving along slowly on my DMT with Librium. A lot of my main sxs have been at bay lately which is amazing but now I just got a new one for the past week that I never had before- tinnitus. My cut rate is very very conservative and I was actually hoping to ramp it up a bit. Is it normal to get this new sx? Does it mean I should hold- like will it go away/improve if I do? Or do I just keep going bc the other sxs are so much better? I'm confused on whether to hold or keep cutting.

 

I've been doing DMT for 2 months now. Thanks for input!!

 

Holy cow, my ears have been ringing for 2 yrs and 3 months as a result of my brutally slow taper. They ring 24/7 but really amp up if anxiety kicks into high gear. I've held numerous times for various things such as surgery, but nothing has touched my tinnitus to this point. I guess every human body is just flat out different. I'm just getting going again after holding due to back pain and reinjury. We'll see. Good luck with your tinnitus!! Maybe it'll come and go rather than hang around consistently. Doesn't matter...it'll all be over someday

 

Jeff

 

Glad to hear you're going to be able to pick up your taper again, Jeff. Hope it goes smoothly. And, as you say, it will all be over someday!

[[Li...]]

Jeff,

 

Good luck to you!!  I was reading your signature and noticed we both have been on benzos for a very long time.  Me it's 20 years almost.  Never knew what it was doing to me.  Doc said I could take it forever.  I will never touch another one once I get off!  I had to go to my old neuro doc who prescribed this stuff to me many years ago...luckily he hasn't retired just yet.  Anyway, he saved my life many years ago as I was pain free and could function again.  Now he's gonna save my life again by continuing to give me these drugs so I can get off.  He'll be getting an earful from me in the next 21 months of weaning.  He thinks it's so easy and maybe it will be for me but he's fixing to be enlightened. 

 

Again, good luck and take care!

[[sh...]]

Moving along slowly on my DMT with Librium. A lot of my main sxs have been at bay lately which is amazing but now I just got a new one for the past week that I never had before- tinnitus. My cut rate is very very conservative and I was actually hoping to ramp it up a bit. Is it normal to get this new sx? Does it mean I should hold- like will it go away/improve if I do? Or do I just keep going bc the other sxs are so much better? I'm confused on whether to hold or keep cutting.

 

I've been doing DMT for 2 months now. Thanks for input!!

 

Holy cow, my ears have been ringing for 2 yrs and 3 months as a result of my brutally slow taper. They ring 24/7 but really amp up if anxiety kicks into high gear. I've held numerous times for various things such as surgery, but nothing has touched my tinnitus to this point. I guess every human body is just flat out different. I'm just getting going again after holding due to back pain and reinjury. We'll see. Good luck with your tinnitus!! Maybe it'll come and go rather than hang around consistently. Doesn't matter...it'll all be over someday

 

Jeff

 

Jeff!!  Good luck with restarting your taper!  Holler if you need anything my friend.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[Ki...]]

Hey micro folks what would YOU do if your V script pills weighed drastically different? They weigh anythinh from 157 to 184. I have been alternating a heavy one then a light one then a medium- seems like it would even out but since I metabolize everything so fast it SEEMS like I can tell its not really as even as the old days when everything weighed 160. Any advice? Im not ready to switch to liquid and get whoomped again after just getting whoomped pretty bad from unintentionally changing brands. Im even keeping my husband up with all the snaky leg and arm movements all night

[[Li...]]

Hi Kittybeanbag,

 

Maybe get an average weight of 10 pills?  And use that weight?  When I first joined I remember reading that at some point.  You probably know that tho. 

 

I switched to liquid a couple of weeks ago...now I feel like my med is not working at all for me.  I stabilized at first but now not so much. 

[[Ul...]]

Moving along slowly on my DMT with Librium. A lot of my main sxs have been at bay lately which is amazing but now I just got a new one for the past week that I never had before- tinnitus. My cut rate is very very conservative and I was actually hoping to ramp it up a bit. Is it normal to get this new sx? Does it mean I should hold- like will it go away/improve if I do? Or do I just keep going bc the other sxs are so much better? I'm confused on whether to hold or keep cutting.

 

I've been doing DMT for 2 months now. Thanks for input!!

 

Holy cow, my ears have been ringing for 2 yrs and 3 months as a result of my brutally slow taper. They ring 24/7 but really amp up if anxiety kicks into high gear. I've held numerous times for various things such as surgery, but nothing has touched my tinnitus to this point. I guess every human body is just flat out different. I'm just getting going again after holding due to back pain and reinjury. We'll see. Good luck with your tinnitus!! Maybe it'll come and go rather than hang around consistently. Doesn't matter...it'll all be over someday

 

Jeff

 

Glad to hear you're going to be able to pick up your taper again, Jeff. Hope it goes smoothly. And, as you say, it will all be over someday!

 

Thanks, Super Woman!! If I go any slower I'll be in reverse. It's nice to at least have the needle moving in the right direction though. I'm sure I'll have questions since I forgot how to do math. Thanks God for The Sharkster, SG and Builder!

 

Catcha ya soon 

 

Jeff