ASHTON TAPER / CUT & HOLD SUPPORT

[[Bi...]]

Hi Ingrid, I cut .5 every two weeks. The last time I took 3 weeks as I scared myself that the 2 mark was going to be different to my previous cuts. It was silly as I had nothing to base that on, when I went to the 2 mark I felt no different. My only problem now is morning anxiety, but it goes by 8am the time I start work. Oddly I now wake up at 5am when I have always been a late riser. I just confided to a friend that I was coming off valium. Wow the look I got. I feel like making up another name for it, Ativan or something. Valium is such a dirty word. Oh well I'm on the .5 track till my body reacts too strongly and I have a script for liquid valium. Reading every mindfulness book I can get my hands on.

[[No...]]

Hi NoKK, can I ask did you cut down .5mg and it worked OK for you? And when you jumped at .5 were you OK then? I am finding this rate really works for me. Am really happy with it. Well as much as you can be ha ha. I have such fear in my head about it getting worse as I go smaller but it is getting better.

 

Hi Bigmistake. Glad to hear things are going well for you.

 

Yes, I cut every week. Like you, I felt better as I got lower in dosage, so it didn't make sense to me to slow down.

 

Jumping was a lot easier than I anticipated. My vertigo returned and intensified for a few weeks, and I had that weird sensation of "boatiness" around the same time. Neither was constant or anything like that. Overall, I felt better after I jumped than I did during my taper.

 

By around 6 weeks, the majority of my symptoms were gone (I had a ton of symptoms!). I still have some symptoms at 4+ months out, but I feel better now than I did during the last while I was still on the full dosage of Klonopin (I was in tolerance withdrawal). I've found that my progress post-jump is more linear than during my taper. Not so many windows/waves ... more slow, steady progress. My family tells me that I seem back to my old self to them. I don't feel that, but I'm definitely getting there.

 

I know how scary all this is, and no one can tell you how things will go for you, of course, but I can tell you that I did a lot of worrying about things that never happened. I'd say that, if you're doing well, trust your instincts and continue this way. You can always slow things down if you feel you need to, but it sounds like you're doing a perfectly reasonable taper and progressing nicely.

[Guest [in...]]

Hi Ingrid, I cut .5 every two weeks. The last time I took 3 weeks as I scared myself that the 2 mark was going to be different to my previous cuts. It was silly as I had nothing to base that on, when I went to the 2 mark I felt no different. My only problem now is morning anxiety, but it goes by 8am the time I start work. Oddly I now wake up at 5am when I have always been a late riser. I just confided to a friend that I was coming off valium. Wow the look I got. I feel like making up another name for it, Ativan or something. Valium is such a dirty word. Oh well I'm on the .5 track till my body reacts too strongly and I have a script for liquid valium. Reading every mindfulness book I can get my hands on.

 

Thanks, BigMistake. Im worried about getting down to 5mg and then going below, wondering if I can still do .5mg cuts every 2 weeks. I thought 5mg is when most start to run into trouble, if going too quickly? Not sure 

 

 

[[...]]

I'll let you know how I feel the next cut I do, Ingrid. I'll be below the 5mg mark from here on out.

 

I was really, really scared to cut to 5mgs though. I thought I was really in for it because of what I've read on this board. But I am doing fine. I have sxs, sure, but I've had sxs throughout my whole taper so that's not new. Actually, something cool happened. My head cleared up a couple of times after this last cut and I haven't felt a clear head in forever. Wow!

 

Bigmistake said it right, I believe. I have nothing to base my fears on (thanks, bigmistake ) so maybe we shouldn't let the fear get to us?

 

The old saying goes, "we're all so different," and it's true. Still, I'll let you know how I do as I inch my way closer and closer to Zero (I'm currently cutting 0.5mgs every 2 weeks).

 

Best of luck to you. Hang in there!

 

 

 

koko

[[Sm...]]

 

Hi Needsomehelp,

 

Ashton recommends 1.0 or 0.5mg cuts all the way down, then jumping at no lower than 0.5mg (which is what I did). Ashton doesn't recommend reducing by percentages.

 

If you want to make smaller cuts, you might find the following helpful. It's post #279 in this thread, from Jackie Brown.

 

 

Hi No

 

I should note to begin with that I'm really super not interested in starting an argument. So try not to take this as an attempt to do so

 

However.. it would be remiss of me to fail to point out that Ashton does not only recommend 1.0 or .5mg cuts all the way down

 

"The rate of tapering should be individually tailored to the patient's personal needs... there can't be a single protocol that applies to everybody because everybody is different.."

- Professor Ashton, 2007

 

 

If however you were to say that Ashton recommends 1.0 or .5mg cuts all the way down in the Ashton Manual then you would be right.

 

Again I'm not interested in an argument. I do think however, if we are to speak on behalf of such a respected individual as Prof Ashton we need to be sure we are saying completely accurate and up to date things.

 

Much thanks 

Smiff

 

 

[[ov...]]

Thanks Smiff:  I have watched that video a few times.  In the original manual it suggested 1mg V every 1 - 2 weeks.  That seems incredibly fast to me.  I have been tapering .5 mg every 2 - 3 weeks.  I have a lot of s/x but still need to work. 

 

Love this thread!

xo OC 

[[Bi...]]

Thank you NoKN for telling us about your post jump experiences. It does give me so much hope. I found the hardest part for me was just starting. It is like I gave my brain a big shove and it suddenly realised that it wasn't going to live in la la land on Valium forever. Of course like many people I had no idea of how to taper so went way too fast, was so-o sick. Maybe it's a good thing as I now know how bad this thing can get. I am better now than I was taking more valium. It is because I am learning to change my thought patterns too. I have read and read and read about meditation, mindfulness and anxiety and have some great new skills in coping with things that used to bother me. And I have moved from a toxic work environment.

Ingrid, for me 5mg was no different to any of the other reductions. That's all we can say, isn't it? What it was like for us. Don't be fearful, your body will let you know if it is too fast. I have enough pills to see me through to the end at this rate and love seeing the pile getting smaller. The doors of hell didn't open for me when I went to 2 as I thought they might. I have minor symptoms that are worth the trade for giving up this poison. Another cut this Monday and I am treating it with excitement not fear. 

[[...]]

Hi Everyone

 

Please may I join for some help and advice?

 

I had to reinstate after 4.5 years free due to being seriously ill with a gallbladder infection and then surgery.  I waited it out in the setback for 5 months but then got sick again with a bladder infection, more procedures etc was suicidal 24/7 and my family dragged me to a p-doc who reinstated Valium about 19 days ago - 2mg 3 times a day for a total of 6mg daily.

 

After a few days I was no longer bedridden, I was out and about and felt good then 3 days ago I started to feel bad again. Anxiety etc etc.

 

My p-doc wants me to updose again to get stable. I am terrified I in tolerance already and just don't know what to do next - do I need to give the Valium more time like another week or 2 to level out, should I try going up? Or should I start to try and taper down to see if that helps me? I am truly stuck and terrified to be doing this again.

 

Please and help or advice gratefully received.

 

Thank you.

[[Bi...]]

Hi MAA I hate to hear that you are suffering but I could never see the day when I would ever take benzos again. I read posts from people who are going thru this a second time and I can't imagine it. Every time I said I was getting side effects from taking valium the doctor would tell me was a sign to take more. No, it was a sign that i was experiencing tolerance, my anxiety wasn't becoming worse my addiction was, I have now dealt with anxiety far worse than the kind I had in the beginning. I am using the skills of mindfulness to talk myself down from anxiety and to stop destructive thoughts. I am reading this great book called Feeling Good and getting a lot out of it. One of the rules of this forum is not to tell other people what they should do. I guess you can't predict the future but benzos come at a cost greater than the temporary relief they bring. In my opinion.

[[Sm...]]

Thanks Smiff:  I have watched that video a few times.  In the original manual it suggested 1mg V every 1 - 2 weeks.  That seems incredibly fast to me.  I have been tapering .5 mg every 2 - 3 weeks.  I have a lot of s/x but still need to work. 

 

Love this thread!

xo OC 

 

Well see that right there - needing to work - would be one of the circumstances Ashton is talking about that might change the rate of withdrawal

One day closer to healed

[Guest [in...]]

thanks koko and Builder for ur replies and reassurance. I have had very little difficulty, really not much at all, so far on my taper. I also feel excited about each cut, not fearful(was only fearing 5mg under cut) Im still hiking 4 mi a day, doing yard work, house work, business work. Im sleeping, eating, happy. Who could ask for more? And why shouldn't I think this could continue?! 

[[Ju...]]

Thanks Smiff:  I have watched that video a few times.  In the original manual it suggested 1mg V every 1 - 2 weeks.  That seems incredibly fast to me.  I have been tapering .5 mg every 2 - 3 weeks.  I have a lot of s/x but still need to work. 

 

Love this thread!

xo OC 

 

If you look at the notes at the bottom of the schedule in Ashton's manual, you'll see this:

 

Professor Ashton said:  When you get down to a dose of 5mg daily, you could begin to decrease in 0.5mg doses, but most people manage with 1mg reductions.

 

Source:  Ashton Manual

 

But as Smiff posted, Ashton always said the person should be in charge of their withdrawal rate.  But she also cautioned that the rate of withdrawal should not be spun out into an extremely long time.  What this length of time is, is debatable.  My motto is that if the benzo is being reduced, it's all good.

 

I've known one buddie who reduced by .25mg for their last 5mg or less and this buddie is doing great post taper.  She was a Xanax to Valium crossover person. 

 

[[bo...]]

I'm following this now with interest. I respect the personal experiences of a variety of folk on here with a variety of approaches - the commonality is go down carefully and keep a close eye on your symptom level to see when things are becoming too much to bear.

 

I've done roughly 0.5 per 2-3 weeks from 10mg to 5.5mg, and I'd like to continue to do so if it works out with me. I'm quite happy to stretch out the holds if my symptom levels increase. I seem to cope OK with the 0.5 drops, but am unsure if this will get harder because it becomes 'larger' each time as a percentage of dose.

 

Up until now I've followed the Valium Support Group and the Slow Taper group, and am still open to the possibility of titration. But I haven't needed it yet, and will stick to 0.5 cut and hold for as long as it's tolerable for me. I do think we're all different in many ways - our benzo history, our general mental health, our life circumstances, our ability to cope with levels of sx.

 

So at present I'm 'happy' with how my taper is going, and hoping to stay that way. Great thread - I'm keeping an open mind on several possible avenues to get myself off. I so deeply want to stay functional as a dad, husband and teacher in the process, and in my post-taper adjustment.

[[Ju...]]

Bolders, I'm glad your taper is working for you.  And I'm also glad to hear that you're open to changing things up if things start to go south.  I was very fortunate in that I was able to find a linear cut that worked for me for most of my taper.  I started the cut just above 1.5mgs of Xanax, (30mgs Valium equiv), and rode the cut all the way to zero.  I was always ready, willing and able to cut smaller as I got down in dose, but for me I found this wasn't necessary.  I believe what made the difference for me was that I was religious about stabilizing between cuts.  I was very aware when my % started increasing above 10%, but the cuts continued to feel the same no matter the percentage.  This was just my experience of course and we're all different.  But I hope you catch this break too. 

[[Bi...]]

Hello there. Just checked it to update my dose to 1.5. No problems so far and it's been 4 days. Can't wait to go to 1. 

[[No...]]

Hello there. Just checked it to update my dose to 1.5. No problems so far and it's been 4 days. Can't wait to go to 1. 

 

That's great to hear, Bigmistake. (And I love the term "Self-UNmedicating"!)

 

[[bo...]]

Thanks Juliea for the encouragement, and your experience. I'll keep plodding down in 0.5s, taking at least a couple of weeks each cut, and see how things go.

 

Not stressing it!

[[Bi...]]

Yeah I thought of the unmedicating thing after I'd been to the psych and told him what I was doing. His diagnosis (picture the expensive office, him stroking his chin in that doctory way) was 'keep doing what you are doing'. Thanks doc!

Don't have to visit any docs anymore as I have all the poison pills I need to take me thru to day zero. Soooo happy. Keep expecting to get hammered at every cut, but nope. I feel better the lower I go, not worse. I know it's a tough road, but it's the RIGHT road. 

[[Ch...]]

Hey Big,

 

It is amazing how the fog lifts and everything gets brighter as you get the poison out of your system.  I remember thinking that even the colors looked more colorfull.  It kind of reminded me of the part in the book "interview with a vampire" when Louie woke up and saw things for the first time with his vampire eyes.

 

Yea for UNmedicated!! 

 

 

[[bo...]]

Bigmistake, you give me hope that I can keep heading down steadily. After tapering waaay too quick not just once, but a couple of times, I've been drawn a lot towards the super-super-slow approach, but now I'm happy to listen to my body and see how it goes.

 

Next cut 5.5 -> 5.0 next weekend is my plan, and onwards from there.

 

I still reckon there's a lot of evidence that the lower cuts are 'harder', and I'll certainly be on guard for longer holds or smaller cuts in the last couple of mg.

 

I'm also finding that there are ways in which I'm 'more alive' already.

[[Bi...]]

Hi China D, there are a lot of things getting better. I am not having nightmares like I used to. The nightmares were so bad when I was taking valium in bigger doses. And every morning I felt as if I had a hangover. That is going, although I do have anxiety. Am so grateful that I can work and terrified that something bad is around the corner.

Hey Bolder, glad that I can give you some confidence. You are a teacher! Man, can u still teach with this going on. I had to give up teaching for a desk job. Wonder if I will ever go back. I have gone from 4 to 1.5 taking 0.5 cuts every fortnight. So far so OK (wouldn't say good). 1mg day is this Monday. I like the sound of that so much. Might stay there for a little longer. Then have a script for liquid. I think it might get worse when I jump. I still notice that when I take the pill in the morning I feel some relief. That may be a bad sign. Ah well onwards and downwards.

 

[[ov...]]

Big Mistake: You are lucky, my s/xs are getting worse as I taper!  But I began from an unstable place.

xo OC  :smitten:

[[Bi...]]

Thanks OverC, my side effects when I began were bad, but now they are manageable. I can work, eat and sleep and am grateful for that. I hope your s/xs even out too. What a crazy ride! Is there anyone else tapering at .5 every two weeks? I'm getting worried. Ashton says 1mg every two weeks. I still feel better in the morning when I take my tablet. This would mean am still addicted, right? Am expecting the worst each time, but am OK. How horrible to not even be happy when you are OK.

Love to everyone on BB 

 

[Guest [in...]]

Bigmistake I am tapering .5mg every 2 weeks, am at 7.5mg, way higher than u, my friend! However, I only held 10 days this last cut. But Im going back to 2 week holds. Im doing well and feel better as I get lower in dose.  Ive been following Ashton too, but mostly Dr Reg Peart.

[[Bi...]]

Oh good. Then we can hold hands.