Have you changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering?

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Morning Bart

 

Where are you from I am from the U.K it is now 5.11 am to be precise, I agree with what you have just said, I love the MT patent pending bit. I am using both tablets and liquid V to taper so what is my taper called . I also pull and throw away my liquid as there is always that bit in the end of my syringe and this is constant ever since I started using liquid, my tricky bit is the next few days dose as I am almost at 2 mg and when I took my dose last night I instantly thought have I actually had any liquid as I could hardly taste it, here in the U.K it is pink and thick and not bad on taste.

 

I still am not sure whether to carry on using tablets and liquid once I have reached the 2 mg, as it will be a lot to me to use solely liquid, I am cutting by .02 mg daily and this is enough for me personally.

 

This is another thing we are all built differently and I still feel that this can make a difference in how much we cut as individuals, when I took my cats to the vet they were both weighed and given the correct dosage according to their body weight and I know they were given meds but surely this can apply to tapering off our meds as we are all different. I could be wrong again.

 

DD

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Hi dd58

I'm from the US of A

 

Your method is obviously dd58's tablet/liquid, pull/throw, MT method (patent pending).

 

I'm cutting at .005/day when I do.  I am tapering supplements this month so I hold a lot. I should add "hold whenever I feel like it" to my method's name. We are all different, huh. I'm going to sack out now---busy day tomorrow

[[...]]

Thanks Bart

 

No idea if you are cutting less or more than me as everyone knows my maths is terrible.

 

DD

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My greatest ambition in life is to cut slower than everybody else. Nighty night.

[Guest [St...]]

Hi dd58

 

Sorry you are feeling quite rough.

It's all very confusing isn't it.

I say my taper is probably titration without the cylinder.

 

Do you think your wd symptoms could possibly be from the cut and hold?

I found that symptoms would be much less linear with cut and hold. With daily cuts if something goes wrong, it can easily be corrected, provided it is dealt with early.

 

With cut and hold, symptoms can come and go and come back again, and be really unpredictable, and we may not have fully recovered from the last cut, but, I promote people doing what is right for them.

 

I think daily cuts fail for some because the cut is too big.

 

BMT is not supported on here, and I think many people, including me, used the word microtapering just to cover daily or even every other day cuts. I think its a words, thing, or a semantics thing.

BMT or microtapering. It seems that BMT, is not the only daily taper regime used by daily taperers.

 

When doing dialy cuts, like cut and hold, it seems some people can get away with bigger cuts than others.

Cut size may also need adjusting the lower down in the dose you go.

 

The only concern I would have with using pills and liquid is that there may be a slight variation in dose between them. This would complicate a daily taper possibly. Don't be scared though, because as you are using the two dailly, you have consistancy in dose, minus the cut of course.

 

Cut and hold would hav taken me forever, and I was worried about how each cut would hit  me, as I seemed to start feeling the later ones, even though they were only 0.125mg.

 

Some people do cut and hold from 2mg down to 0mg, but many suffer PAWS

 

You havent ruffled my feathers, you are just trying to clarify.

 

Daily tapers look like a smooth "C" with a long tail, whereas cut and hold tapers look like jagged 'steps' with a 'jump' at the end. With daily tapers, you slide off, with cut and hold you jump.

The bigger the jump, the more of a shock, and longer recovery time.

 

It is claimed that so long as you cut daily at a rate which your GABA receptors cannot pick up, you are able to lose more benzo.

 

I may sound biased in favour of daily cuts, but that's cos the benzo anxiety has meant that I am too scared of the 'steps' and the final 'jump.

 

Hi Journey,

 

I know you are stating your opinion based on your experience, but I don't think you can  emphatically make a statement like this...

 

Some people do cut and hold from 2mg down to 0mg, but many suffer PAWS

 

 

While some may in fact suffer PAWS, it isn't a given that the 'Cut and Hold' will result in PAWS any more than the other methods.

 

I've seen and heard many 'Daily Cutters', Titraters and 'MT's' (for want of a better word) suffer PAWS too!  I know plenty of people who have cut and held and jumped at 0.50mgs and recover within 'normal' timeframes too.

 

Just another perspective, for me, I am the opposite of you Journey, I would be too frightened to continue with a daily cut, as it seems the last few mgs prove extremely hard to get rid off.

[[jo...]]

Hi Staffygirl

 

When I say that daily taperers dont get PAWS, I mean the ones who do Jana's BMT pat.pend.

I think the people who do daily cuts and still sufffer are the ones who are trying to do it on thier own.

Others continue with the same cut despite emergence of symptoms.

 

Jana 'sees', well, virtually sees, everyone individually, and lots of factors are taken into account with each taper. People slide off the drug gently.

 

I wasn't able to do BMT pat.pend due to the fact that I smoke and take so many other things that inhibit or induce the enzymes that metabolize diazepam. It would have just been a guess, so I am just titrating at a cut I can handle as I have started with a low cut and slowly worked my way up to this size cut.

 

Of course many people come off benzos in all sorts of way without suffering PAWS, they are the lucky ones, but, I think that out of all the taper types, those doing BMT are much less likely to come out with PAWS. Those who went onto BMT while symptomatic from previous bad tapers, or c/t's may still have some PAWS from that, but BMT actually reduces symptoms in some cases.

 

With regards to the last few mgs, I was having more and more difficulty when I got below 5mg, but since doing this daily titration the journey from 3.5mgs to 2.4mgs has been loads easier.

 

 

[[...]]

 

 

Can someone explain the differences between Jana's BMT to other daily taper methods as perhaps I may be doing it my way, I admit I have struggled with my daily taper and have been cutting by  .02 mg and sometimes I have held or just done a .01 mg cut, I know now the days that I get hit for want of another word which happens to have been yesterday and today days 6 to 8 in my case.

 

This is the confusing bit when I look at my chart taper the days that I get hit it does not matter how much that I have daily cut it still happens, I have always had the same w/d sxs effects from day one and they have gradually got less in how bad they are.

 

I have not got a clue what PAWS means I even googled it but still can not make sense what it means, I am by no means stupid it could be the benzo that is making it difficult to understand in plain English.

 

But from what I can understand and if I am wrong then so be it I have c/t twice with the second time being spent in hospital for 4 months I may have mentioned this before but my benzo head can not remember.

 

I suffered with insomnia does that mean that I will still suffer with insomnia even when I have finished tapering, I may well do this is something none of us know I am angry because I joined this forum to get help because I was not getting any by those that should know about tapering, but because they are clueless I and  no doubt all of us on here have come her to get the help we need and the support from each other of which I have been grateful for.

 

Because if I had not come here I would probably have tapered the wrong way or stupidly have done a c/t but I know what would have happened, I would be back on the benzo as the so called professionals know no other way. I know for a fact that they will be dishing out benzos like sweets I have seen what goes on in a ward I spent long enough on one.

 

I have made some good friends on her because we all have one thing in common besides Mr. Benzo we know how we feel although we may have different w/d sxs I know no one in my world that is tapering or are on benzos, perhaps it is a secret and something to be ashamed about even my own siblings don't want to  know me anymore but when I was 'ok' they wanted me.

 

DD

 

[Guest [St...]]

Hi DD,

 

Journey can probably explain what the true BMT is, to my belief and how it was explained to me is that you find what your individual 'optimal cut rate' is, that said, I believe it means the highest rate of cut your body will tolerate without any or very few symptoms, if you overdo it, then apparently it can be corrected with an 'updose'.  If that's wrong, then I am sure Journey or Oscar can explain it much more precisely.

 

PAWS is the acronymn for Post Accute Withdrawal Syndrome, here's the Wiki explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome

 

Hope this helps. 

 

Staffy

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Thanks Staffy

 

So basically I am still/ maybe going to have insomnia from what I have read about PAWS  thanks for the link,  I have never up dosed  I have held for a few days and cut lower for a day or so.

 

It is the same thing that was going on in the Valium thread I have stupidly got involved but never again, but I must say it has been an eye opener especially when I read that MT is not supported or whatever was written previously .

 

I think I will just carry on and do what is suitable for my self and whether I get PAWS I really don't know, What I do know that I personally think that which way one tapers we are coming off the benzo.  I know of some that have cut and held and have still got the problem they were put on the benzo for and some have daily cut and the same.

 

DD

[[Vr...]]

I prefer Vribble's Cut & Hold Method or VCH pat.pend

 

At the end of each cut period, it's like not tapering at all - what could be easier?  Imagine only messing with your brain chemistry 2-3 times per month rather than every day.  With each cut in dose there's a rest period before the next cut, a taper vacation, to give the brain a chance to catch up.  I never had much in the way of wd sxs.

 

If you, like me, want more Pause and less PAWS in your taper, check out VCH pat.pend today.

 

Vribble's Traveling 3-Ring Circus of the Holy Taper

 

[[Ho...]]

If you, like me, want more Pause and less PAWS in your taper, check out VCH pat.pend today.

 

[[...]]

I  hope this is not having a dig at me.

 

DD

 

 

[[Ho...]]

I  hope this is not having a dig at me.

 

DD

 

 

 

My laughter was based on the phrase I quoted. I am not aware of any reference to you dd.

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Sorry Hope it was not meant for anyone particular it is just that I know BB's that have done a cut and hold and a daily cut who still have problems, I really wish now I had not read this.

 

DD

[[No...]]

I think there is a great deal of confusion between 'microtapering' and 'titration'. Titration is using a liquid to make small cuts daily. 'Microtapering' is not a method we promote/support here, nor have we coined the phrase, nor do any of our team member know what this is referring to.

 

If you're using liquid titration this is not necessarily "microtapering". In fact, Colin will be addressing this issue with the forum very soon.

 

Will Coilin just be addressing the confusion around the microtaper term, or will he present his whole view on the effectivity of the Jana "invented" way of withdrawing from benzos?

 

 

 

 

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Hi Noolie

 

Who is JANA

 

DD

[[Ho...]]

 

I think there is a great deal of confusion between 'microtapering' and 'titration'. Titration is using a liquid to make small cuts daily. 'Microtapering' is not a method we promote/support here, nor have we coined the phrase, nor do any of our team member know what this is referring to.

 

If you're using liquid titration this is not necessarily "microtapering". In fact, Colin will be addressing this issue with the forum very soon.

 

Will Coilin just be addressing the confusion around the microtaper term, or will he present his whole view on the effectivity of the Jana "invented" way of withdrawing from benzos?

 

 

I don't like to speak for Colin but I don't believe he is interested in reviewing Jana's method of withdrawal. Frankly, I don't believe he understands the method any better than I do and I can tell you I have no information about it other than it differs from our supported withdrawal methods on this forum. I'm sure Colin has his opinions regarding very slow tapers and may address this.

 

Part of his post will be to clarify the term 'microtaper'. This is not our term. We support titration. If members are using the term "microtaper" to describe the titration we support, this could lend to confusion. As I've stated before, some members have been using Jana's "microtaper". Some members are using the term to describe "titration". Herein lies the confusion. I believe Colin will strive to lessen this confusion.

[[jo...]]

Yeah, so long as we have people on here saying they are 'microtapering' I will assume they mean Jana's BMTpat.end.

[[In...]]

Actually,

 

When I read the term "micro tapering," I don't assume that anyone is using a very specific method at all other than they are making very small cuts in their dose.

 

And I'm not really clear why that in and of itself should be a problem if it works for them. There are a lot of folks here who do prefer much bigger cuts as their body is more comfortable that way. And others prefer shorter holds or longer holds.

 

So if someone wants to literally pulverize a pill and weigh it out and apportion it into many small doses to be taken over a period of time, and those doses are "micro" or " very small in comparison with others of it's kind," (several online dictionaries used for this definition) and the taper is going well, why is this unsupported?

 

Or perhaps they are titrating their benzo, but withdrawing very small (micro if we use the same term) amounts, and they feel comfortable doing that, why is that unsupported?

 

I have not ever heard that anyone is trying to get BB to endorse a very specific method of tapering at all, but having said that, I acknowledged being chastised for endorsing specific methods. That was probably a mistake for me to say as I know we all can and will try different methods to get off benzos, and some will work while others will not and other folks may be fortunate enough to have several methods work for them.

 

So this subject seems to have caused confusion among members and administrators. I even hesitate to use the word "method" here because it does clearly mean a particular and systematic procedure for accomplishing a task. But IMO, using tiny cuts or micro cuts doesn't seem like such a "bad" idea if the person is comfortable doing that.

 

Trying to get all this "compartmentalized" into supported and unsupported seems hard to me. Well, I may get chastised again, but I'm in favor of what works for people. I totally understand why people are getting mixed up between the terms titration and micro tapering. Perhaps the coming clarification will help that. I'm clear on the difference, but understandably, many may not be at all. I think that clarification is needed so the confusion can stop.

 

Ok, I've surely rambled a bit here. This is really my honest opinion. I just think people should try and be supported in what works for them w/o that necessarily saying folks must follow any particular procedure in order to get that support.

 

Intend

[[Ho...]]

This isn't about any particular method being bad or good or one what works or doesn't work. This is simply about the confusion this term "microtapering" is creating.

 

I'm not sure where you were "chastised" for discussing one particular method over another. If you care to send me a PM I'd be happy to review that for you. When I speak of BB "supporting" one method over another, I mean we can only comment on methods we are familiar with. We can only help members with methods we are familiar with. If a member wants to deal with their taper in a very slow way, if that's what works for them that's wonderful. Whatever works, works! We want members to do what they can to get as healthy as they can. Of course we're not going to support anything that's outlandish but even outlandish methods are discussed on the forum. We the BB team don't support these types of methods but members are free to discuss them. If it's determined they might be dangerous, a BB member might step in but otherwise, I'm not aware that any member has been "chastised" for using on method over another.

 

The problem with the term "microtapering" is that this was a term coined by someone else who runs another forum (Jana Hill). In fact, I believe it might be a patented term.

[[...]]

 

I have just read both posts and I personally have no idea who or where I read the term micro tapering and am clueless to who Jana is and to be honest I don't care who she is. I came to this forum to get help as I have mentioned no doubt before, help and advice I got and am grateful for.

 

When it comes to the word 'microtapering' to me it means cutting small amounts. I am somewhat confused with methods that are familiar to the administrators or to the whole forum which obviously means members.

 

MT or daily cuts has been talked about ever since I joined again last September yet I have not been told that is wrong that this is going on and it may not be suitable to do this taper method, so I thought about it and have carried on doing so.

 

So I am assuming that we should not refer to it as MT but daily cutting at the end of it all it means the same.

 

DD

[[rh...]]

 

I have just read both posts and I personally have no idea who or where I read the term micro tapering and am clueless to who Jana is and to be honest I don't care who she is. I came to this forum to get help as I have mentioned no doubt before, help and advice I got and am grateful for.

 

When it comes to the word 'microtapering' to me it means cutting small amounts. I am somewhat confused with methods that are familiar to the administrators or to the whole forum which obviously means members.

 

MT or daily cuts has been talked about ever since I joined again last September yet I have not been told that is wrong that this is going on and it may not be suitable to do this taper method, so I thought about it and have carried on doing so.

 

So I am assuming that we should not refer to it as MT but daily cutting at the end of it all it means the same.

 

DD

 

I am in agreement with you DD . To me, doing small (tiny) daily cuts is microtapering. Whether it's "patent pending" means nothing to me. I could care less if Jana, or whomever thinks they have the "rights" to this method. I don't need a persons name to call it microtapering (Jana's MT patent pending) It's just another method that works for some, and not others.

 

RG

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Thanks RG

 

I am not one to cause problems but I seem to have yet again I get involved and wham I am in the thick of it, so a lesson to be learnt keep then I don't know what is happening, just  get on with what I am doing and how I personally feel is best for me, put it this way I did c/t and ended up in a hospital for 4 months to be put back on the benzo I stopped

 

DD

[[pi...]]

Thanks RG

 

I am not one to cause problems but I seem to have yet again I get involved and wham I am in the thick of it, so a lesson to be learnt keep then I don't know what is happening, just  get on with what I am doing and how I personally feel is best for me, put it this way I did c/t and ended up in a hospital for 4 months to be put back on the benzo I stopped

 

DD

 

DD,

 

You have not caused any problems, don't think that. 

 

There is much confusion about the term Microtapering.  I myself am confused as well. I know very little about Jana and her website/method of withdrawal.  The reason we say we do not support her specific brand of tapering is because we don't feel we can address this without better information.

 

Colin will strive to clear up misunderstanding and confusion.

 

In the interim, know that if your method works for you, it really dosen't matter what you call it.  We are here to support and encourage you in your journey to be benzo free.

 

pianogirl

[[rh...]]

Thanks RG

 

I am not one to cause problems but I seem to have yet again I get involved and wham I am in the thick of it, so a lesson to be learnt keep then I don't know what is happening, just  get on with what I am doing and how I personally feel is best for me, put it this way I did c/t and ended up in a hospital for 4 months to be put back on the benzo I stopped

 

DD

 

You haven't caused any problems . You just do what works for you, it's all trial and error. We need each other through this process.

 

You're making progress .

 

RG