Online Support....Can it make things worse?

[[ja...]]

Wellness..

 

You got it !You said it Sister. I wish there was another way! I really do. But this is not about Rational and Justifying. Its about Literal. And Litterally our brain has become sensitive to Anything Added to the MIX. I couldn't even take a Multi Vitamin.Its completely Unfair and Cruel to not be able to take anything to relieve this Horror..But it is what it is. That's the Fact about our situation. I believe if some people get relief from anything else .Thank God. But for many adding anything to this extreme w/d can make it beyond our Comprehension.Time is a Healer. And Endurance is KEY..

 

~Jenny

[[bl...]]

Wellness, you said this:

...I think it is important for forum like this one to take a biased view of psychotropic medication being evil. There are many other forums that advocate the use of these medications, for example the depression support groups. For those of us who have been seriously compromised by these drugs, there is no room for reinstatement. There is only one option, to get off these drugs and never take them again. As such I feel the need to defend this forum against pro-medication propaganda, there are already enough of them out there.  The challenge, is not to add more drugs, but to get off of them.

 

I'm personally doing pretty well with my taper and am going to keep it up. Like you say, the challenge is to get off of medication. I also feel strongly that most antidepressants are wrongly prescribed. But is there no room for choice? That's a line I CANNOT cross. If that is the line this forum demands for members who ARE withdrawing -- to not be allowed to make their own choices -- forget it. I think there's room for many opinions, personally. Especially since everything is stated publicly. It's not about dogma or doing what other people think is right; it's about doing what is right for you. Saying "I know what's right for you" is not good. That's how I feel some have already treated me, doctors, therapists, and sometimes friends as well.

 

My grandfather was totally schizophrenic. He needed medication. I'm glad he got it. I can't apologize for his being on antipsychotics when he started wandering naked through the streets in his twenties, and I won't. My other great-grandfather was also clinically insane and committed suicide due to his agoraphobia which has run generation after generation in my family. Is medication overprescribed? Completely. Is it never warranted? Why do we need to paint things here in absolutes? Clearly there are outliers and people with different needs.

 

I believe what we really need is for patients and others to be informed about what could happen to them if they take benzos in the long term, and how hard it is to come off of these, and what the best ways to come off are.

 

Beyond that, I feel really uncomfortable making anyone else's mental health decisions for them without knowing them online based on a few research studies. Period.

 

All that aside, I hope you're having a fabulous day. Mine hasn't been so great. Not good at all, to be honest here. I'm pretty angry right now (nothing to do with this post; to do with doctors and psychiatric care and being treated like an idiot and ONCE AGAIN told to take an SSRI -- which I WILL NOT DO). I am outraged at what I went through today, but in general angry from w/d. I think it's probably a symptom for me. Pretty sure about that. Trying to be calm.

 

We should all have control over ourselves and our choices and that's the real core of this issue. I dislike feeling anyone tell me, or anyone else what to do or how to feel or what to ingest: I feel that's how we're in this mess in the first place.

 

Peace.

[Guest [...]]

Hey Blue

 

I agree with you too woops totally im screwed.  I believe everyone has the right to chose the path they want but for me its not medication.  I know today they are going to try and put me on something and the only reason i got on something in the first place was for sleep because i was so desperate for it.  dumb choices we make sometimes and now have to live with the consequences.  Im sorry to see that you are having a rotton day and its ok for you to be angry you have a right to be.  I think some people are so much better off on meds they seriously need them ive met heaps of people having a better quality of life on them as if they didnt take them at all.  Each to their own hey.  Hope your day improves lovely.

 

Lizzy

[[we...]]

I'm not against anybody taking antidepressants if they want to. What I am against is somebody going around the forums spreading misinformation about how harmless these drugs are.  The fact that antidepressants are no more effective than placebo for people who are mildly or moderately depressed, and in the case of severely depressed people, only effective than 15 percent of the time means that for the vast majority of people antidepressants don't work.

 

Of course they can take them if they want, but it means that for the vast majority of people, not only will they will not get better, they will also have to deal with the side effects of the medication and the subsequent withdrawal.  In other words, for the vast majority of people, they will get worse.

 

I do not now or have any intention of ever going to a depression support group and telling them not to take the drugs.  Of course this site has a bias, otherwise there would be no need to name it a withdrawal group. The bias is the withdrawal from benzodiazepines.

 

I'm sorry about your grandfather, and I wish there were better drugs out there. But the World Health Organization has studied antipsychotic medication for schizophrenic and have found that these medication are not beneficial long-term, but they are beneficial short-term. In the long term they cause the same type of down regulation of dopamine receptors, and people who abruptly stopped them had rebound psychosis.  Schizophrenics who remain on antipsychotic fare worse than those who only take it for short periods of time when they need it.

 

If people choose to take these medications, of course it is their choice. But to advocate taking them like they were harmless, is misleading and dangerous.

[[bl...]]

Hey Blue

 

I agree with you too woops totally im screwed.  I believe everyone has the right to chose the path they want but for me its not medication.  I know today they are going to try and put me on something and the only reason i got on something in the first place was for sleep because i was so desperate for it.  dumb choices we make sometimes and now have to live with the consequences.  Im sorry to see that you are having a rotton day and its ok for you to be angry you have a right to be.  I think some people are so much better off on meds they seriously need them ive met heaps of people having a better quality of life on them as if they didnt take them at all.  Each to their own hey.  Hope your day improves lovely.

 

Lizzy

 

 

I'm just in a crummy mood. I shouted at my therapist and made a scene (kind of a big one). I don't like medication! Loathe it and wouldn't take almost anything other than aspirin and antibiotics. I just like feeling in control and being told what to do by anyone drives me up the wall. Bleh!!!!!!!

 

BLEHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

 

:hug:

 

I hope you're doing very well, sweetie!

[[bl...]]

I'm not against anybody taking antidepressants if they want to. What I am against is somebody going around the forums spreading misinformation about how harmless these drugs are. 

 

Oh, definitely. I'm with you on that. Can you talk to my therapist for me? The joker tried to con me into taking an SSRI today when I'm not depressed at all and tried to con me into c/t off of benzos too saying I could just "replace" them with Celexa. I've only seen him three times so I quit him.

 

And wasn't nice about it. I personally wouldn't take ad's. If someone is informed and feels they need them, I understand.

 

I'm touchy about this one also because one of my close friends -- an ex -- committed suicide during a depressive episode (not related to benzos at all). I think about him daily and wish he had some kind of help. That's all.

 

But my grandfather, he was helped no doubt about it by antipsychotics. He tried to harm people while delusional as well as himself and was institutionalized, okay? This was in the late 1950's or early 1960's. I'm glad he found help and think he was released to home care about twenty years later. My uncle, on the other hand, committed suicide also due to his delusions (he was schizophrenic and unmedicated). I do have strong views about this for obvious reasons.

 

But that's okay with me. We are permitted to have different views! I wouldn't feel otherwise about it. It's important to respect each of our realities. We're all different people with different backgrounds and realities we've lived through.

[[Ch...]]

Wellness, you said this:

...I think it is important for forum like this one to take a biased view of psychotropic medication being evil. There are many other forums that advocate the use of these medications, for example the depression support groups. For those of us who have been seriously compromised by these drugs, there is no room for reinstatement. There is only one option, to get off these drugs and never take them again. As such I feel the need to defend this forum against pro-medication propaganda, there are already enough of them out there.  The challenge, is not to add more drugs, but to get off of them.

 

I'm personally doing pretty well with my taper and am going to keep it up. Like you say, the challenge is to get off of medication. I also feel strongly that most antidepressants are wrongly prescribed. But is there no room for choice? That's a line I CANNOT cross. If that is the line this forum demands for members who ARE withdrawing -- to not be allowed to make their own choices -- forget it. I think there's room for many opinions, personally. Especially since everything is stated publicly. It's not about dogma or doing what other people think is right; it's about doing what is right for you. Saying "I know what's right for you" is not good. That's how I feel some have already treated me, doctors, therapists, and sometimes friends as well.

 

My grandfather was totally schizophrenic. He needed medication. I'm glad he got it. I can't apologize for his being on antipsychotics when he started wandering naked through the streets in his twenties, and I won't. My other great-grandfather was also clinically insane and committed suicide due to his agoraphobia which has run generation after generation in my family. Is medication overprescribed? Completely. Is it never warranted? Why do we need to paint things here in absolutes? Clearly there are outliers and people with different needs.

 

I believe what we really need is for patients and others to be informed about what could happen to them if they take benzos in the long term, and how hard it is to come off of these, and what the best ways to come off are.

 

Beyond that, I feel really uncomfortable making anyone else's mental health decisions for them without knowing them online based on a few research studies. Period.

 

All that aside, I hope you're having a fabulous day. Mine hasn't been so great. Not good at all, to be honest here. I'm pretty angry right now (nothing to do with this post; to do with doctors and psychiatric care and being treated like an idiot and ONCE AGAIN told to take an SSRI -- which I WILL NOT DO). I am outraged at what I went through today, but in general angry from w/d. I think it's probably a symptom for me. Pretty sure about that. Trying to be calm.

 

We should all have control over ourselves and our choices and that's the real core of this issue. I dislike feeling anyone tell me, or anyone else what to do or how to feel or what to ingest: I feel that's how we're in this mess in the first place.

 

Peace.

 

Simply great post.  Imagine if there was no lithium in the world.  All or nothing approaches in pyschiatry simply do not work.  It's because of them that alot of us are here in this situation.  While it's true that there are long term problems with most medications, there is simply no excuse for letting a suicidal person in withdrawal believe an antidpressant won't help them.  Even Ashton states this.  You have to be alive to go through a withdrawal of any type.  Such is the case with me. 

[[bl...]]

(((((((((ChristopherXXII))))))))))

 

I hope you are doing very well these days!

[[KR...]]

Like I want to throw some cold water on them or something and say "Wake the HELL UP!!" They stuff your reading is bad for you".

 

I'm with you on that one. Rock.

 

I think that is why it's important to keep the forums open so that everyone can reply, and not give advice in PMs and chat.

 

These drugs nearly killed me, and it will be another year or more before I recover. Naturally I have strong emotions when somebody starts suggesting they should take this drug or that drug.  It's also possible that for these people, this drug or that drug actually saved their lives.  So on the one hand, the same drug that nearly killed me, is the drug that saved their lives. It's difficult to reconcile these differing experiences. Where I draw the line, is when somebody says things like… Oh this drug won't hurt you… Or, this drug doesn't cause withdrawal. Since all psychotropic medication are known to have discontinuation syndromes, or withdrawals, that is spreading misinformation.  Anyone who has been on these forums long enough have seen people reinstating and adding antidepressants with disastrous results adding years to their misery. 

 

It's a tricky situation, because the people who post success stories are usually off all drugs. I always wondered why there were so few success stories, and now that I have been on this form for over a year, I can say that about 50 to 80 percent of the people that I have followed, have either reinstated or added other medications. Of the people who have added other medications, none are healed yet.  I don't know anyone who reinstated and did well. I don't know anyone (except 2) who added an antidepressant and wish that they hadn't several months later.  One is still on the antidepressant, the other one is tapering with withdrawal symptoms years later.

 

A lot of people on these forums don't disclose the other psychotropic medications they are on.  Of course there is no law against that, and this is not a confessional, but it paints a distorted view of benzodiazepine withdrawal because many of these medications interfere with healing because of their cross tolerance. 

 

What I'm seeing is that the people who have been off all psychotropic medication and healing often advocate to stay off all drugs, of course they would, that is what has worked for them. The people who have reinstated don't have a voice. We don't hear about the people who reinstated successfully, only the ones who have reinstated with disastrous results. This is to be expected since this is a benzodiazepine withdrawal forum, not a benzodiazepine reinstatement forum.

 

Given the lack of validation from doctors about the withdrawal syndrome, I think it is important for forum like this one to take a biased view of psychotropic medication being evil. There are many other forums that advocate the use of these medications, for example the depression support groups. For those of us who have been seriously compromised by these drugs, there is no room for reinstatement. There is only one option, to get off these drugs and never take them again. As such I feel the need to defend this forum against pro-medication propaganda, there are already enough of them out there.  The challenge, is not to add more drugs, but to get off of them.

 

* Gets off soapbox*

 

Bravo Welly!!!  You tell em!!! 

 

Bravo Jaso!!!  Way to back it up!!!  This has been your mantra from the start!! Grin and Bear it!! Just go thru it!!! Although that path can hurt!! Can you say OUCH!!! 

 

We have to remember that there are members on here with other medical problems that you don't know about. People do have issues other than Benzo withdrawl on this forum. I know that may come as a surprise!  You have to remind yourself of this. Even though you have friends here. You may not know the "REAL" person your talking to. Even though you think you do. They might leave out alot of important details on why their having certain issues with this or that. Its just absurd to try and compare your withdrawl or symptoms to others. No two people are created a like therefor neither will your withdrawls. You are you. And they are who they are. keep it simple. Don't over read into other peoples symptoms. Even though I still do sometimes and it scares the hell out of me!!  This place can be a trip to say the least. It can be like a good Romance novel gone BAD :'( in a matter of minutes.   

 

Rock

 

 

 

 

[Guest [...]]

KRock

 

Im sure most people who took benzos in the first place obviously had issues wouldnt you say.  I think Im all for owning my stuff and truly believe that everyone's withdrawal is an individual thing.  Ive spoken to some Real Live people who have come off benzos did it tough for a few weeks and are now doing fine. 

 

Although you are right we dont know who we are talking to but you can get a great sense of what kind of character a person has just by the content of what they are writing Im sure we can agree to that.

 

Lizzy

 

 

[[ja...]]

Hi Lizzy..

Hope your doing OK today I know you've been suffering alot!

I have to say .I wasn't on Benzos due to any Issues. I started working a Fulltime Over time job in the Evenings. I was working 5 pm to 5 am and I couldnt sleep during the day.It was weighing heavy on me due the fact I had to work 6 to 7 days a week and not sleeping was the reason Benzos were introduced to me through my doctor.

 

That really bothers me I took this med. So when I returned to my Hometown and no longer had to work. I stopped taking it. Didn't feel it was necessary .I was back to sleeping normal night time hours.Was I in for a Shock! lol. I hope your doing well in the hospital and just know you will be back to feeling better and better as time goes bye.

 

~Jenny

[Guest [...]]

Hey Jen

 

thanks mate for your warm wishes.  I know thats what im saying I couldnt sleep either and then they gave me an a/d for sleep and 4mg of xanax to take the EDGE of never was told it was addictive and all i did was cry on it anyway for weeks and weeks and you know what happened next.  Thats the point im making whether it was for sleep or whatever reason.  My anger has given way to fear.  Fear of the unknown and of getting myself back.  Hospital is fine its wondering when i will be fit to leave is the issue.  Anyway thanks so much again.  I know you did it tough and you are making it and so will I.

 

Lizzyxx

[[KR...]]

Lizzy.... hope your feelin ok. Sorry your in the hospital. Hope you get out soon. How's the food? Just kiddin. I'm sure it sucks. I guess what I wanted to say in my last post in regards to people having other issues than benzo withdrawl is that people can have many other factors that contribute to whether or not they have a bad withdrawl or not ie.. money problems, outside stress factors, other meds complicating things, relationship/family issues, jobs, other medical/health issues, ect. Now of course this isn't the physical/mental nightmare of the withdrawl itself. But All these things can factor into this process. So its just hard to compare one withdrawl to another when you have all these other things going on. That's why I said we have to remind ourselves that we are not like the other person online. Yes we are all withdrawling off of benzo/tranquilizers. But that's about the extent of it. After that we are all very different for the most part and this process will play out differently for everyone.

 

Rock

[[Co...]]

Wellness, you said this:

...I think it is important for forum like this one to take a biased view of psychotropic medication being evil. There are many other forums that advocate the use of these medications, for example the depression support groups. For those of us who have been seriously compromised by these drugs, there is no room for reinstatement. There is only one option, to get off these drugs and never take them again. As such I feel the need to defend this forum against pro-medication propaganda, there are already enough of them out there.  The challenge, is not to add more drugs, but to get off of them.

 

I'm personally doing pretty well with my taper and am going to keep it up. Like you say, the challenge is to get off of medication. I also feel strongly that most antidepressants are wrongly prescribed. But is there no room for choice? That's a line I CANNOT cross. If that is the line this forum demands for members who ARE withdrawing -- to not be allowed to make their own choices -- forget it. I think there's room for many opinions, personally. Especially since everything is stated publicly. It's not about dogma or doing what other people think is right; it's about doing what is right for you. Saying "I know what's right for you" is not good. That's how I feel some have already treated me, doctors, therapists, and sometimes friends as well.

 

I agree. BenzoBuddies is not an anti-medication or anti-psychiatry website. The expectation is that members make informed choices, in consultation with a doctor, regarding their own healthcare.

 

Wellness, I understand your point of view, but it is not how I wish to run a benzo-withdrawal support forum. Other benzo forums have been run along the lines you suggest - BB was partly formed as an alternative to such an approach

 

My grandfather was totally schizophrenic. He needed medication. I'm glad he got it. I can't apologize for his being on antipsychotics when he started wandering naked through the streets in his twenties, and I won't. My other great-grandfather was also clinically insane and committed suicide due to his agoraphobia which has run generation after generation in my family. Is medication overprescribed? Completely. Is it never warranted? Why do we need to paint things here in absolutes? Clearly there are outliers and people with different needs.

 

Speaking as the owner of a benzo-withdrawal support forum - I believe that there is certainly a place for the use of benzodiazepines. Just because the drug industry has had a vested interest in suppressing the negative aspects benzodiazepine use, and because many doctors continue to ignore best prescribing practices developed since they first learned about benzodiazepines decades earlier at medical school, this does not equate to 'everyone should quit benzodiazepines (and all psychoactive drugs)'. I too had great problems with benzodiazepines, but why would I assume my experience to be applicable to everyone else? I don't!

 

I believe what we really need is for patients and others to be informed about what could happen to them if they take benzos in the long term, and how hard it is to come off of these, and what the best ways to come off are.

 

Yes, informed choice. Someone once said: An uninformed choice is no choice at all.

 

Beyond that, I feel really uncomfortable making anyone else's mental health decisions for them without knowing them online based on a few research studies. Period.

 

I'd go further: irrespective of how much (even verifiable) information I might hold about someone else's medical situation, I would not attempt to make medical decisions for them. But then again, I don't think it is (normally) a doctor's place either. Patients should be fully informed of their situation, the options available, and the potential benefits and pitfalls for each of those choices. Then, the doctor should act upon his/her patient's informed wishes.

 

Colin.

[[bl...]]

Colin, you're such an awesome, level-headed guy. I continuously appreciate you and am glad to have found this forum. Honestly, I don't think I'd be where I am, moving toward a third of my original dose, without the support and space of BB.

 

I cut again today! 

 

Taking it slow and doing alright. I think I really will make it off for the first time, finally. Whenever I feel doubtful, I come here and try to help someone or just check in and remember others are also struggling.

[Guest [Da...]]

Patients should be fully informed of their situation, the options available, and the potential benefits and pitfalls for each of those choices. Then, the doctor should act upon his/her patient's informed wishes.

 

Colin:

 

In reality, this does not happen; at least where I live.

 

I trusted my pdoc to precribe the appropriate medication for me as I think most people do. They are, after all, the experts in mental health field. In the 13 years I was on benzos, not once did any pdoc (had three) attribute my ongoing recurrent/clinical depression and anxiety to benzos.

 

In Canada, pdoc are part of our free health care so we are very lucky. But there is an influx of mental health patients year over year, and not enough pdocs to treat them. The system is at its breaking point I think. There is a wait list at our mental health unit in our hospital (I heard it was over a year); unless you are in a really bad state, then you go to Emergency and then you will get a pdoc.

 

My appointments are literally 15 minutes long. My pdoc got extra patients last year. So my last appointment was in December and my next one is in May and we talk medication and he always say these meds are good because the psychiatric booklet says so (he showed me this booklet; not the DSM IV) and that other people seem to be doing well on them. I have always had a good relationship with my pdoc.  Lately, he himself, seems very stressed.

 

I have always been active with my mental health meds but pdoc gave me limited information even though I ask extensive questions.  He truly doesn't know how I will react, how they work (no one does) and that is valid because he does try to help.  He has said that I am treatment resistent (actually we both figured that one out). We continue to try this med or that one and now we are trying tricyclics which are the anti-dep from the 1950s, which have more side effects as opposed to the new ones, but no w/d when stopping. I must say I am truly scared to go on these old AD meds so I have postponed it.

 

It has only been 5 months that I became benzo-wise. Before that I was absolutely ignorant. No pdoc gave me a pamphlet to let me know the dangers or warned me. They do not have time to do talk therapy and really inform. That is the state of our free health care. No pdoc charges privately here as it is against the law. To go outside the hospital for a pdoc, one is again on a wait-list for 2 or more years.

 

I go to my GP now, in between pdoc visits, who has the time. My pdoc wanted me to do a quick taper and he seemed somewhat irritated and didn't believe in the equivalency benzo chart. He wasn't interested in my benzo information either. I think I upset him. Instead I went to my GP. My GP is supporting my benzo tapering and supplying me with V and I don't want to tell my pdoc that my GP is helping me because I am sure he will terminate me as a patient. I feel I am in a bit of a delimma. I think I will tell my Pdoc that I am done tapering which will be a lie.

 

Sorry for the long winded post. I just had to get this out.  I realize most of this information doesn't belong on this thread.

 

Danni

[[Co...]]

Patients should be fully informed of their situation, the options available, and the potential benefits and pitfalls for each of those choices. Then, the doctor should act upon his/her patient's informed wishes.

 

Colin:

 

In reality, this does not happen; at least where I live.

 

Yes, I understand that many doctors do not properly inform their patients of what's happening, their options, and the consequences of each of those options. Sometimes, they do not have the time, so the system is at fault too. However, this does not mean that I or anyone else here should take on the role of 'doctor'. I would even suggest that doctors on the Net should not attempt to do this. They, inevitably, will have limited information when trying to diagnose patients and suggest treatments remotely across the Net.

 

Because there is often a gap between what doctors should offer (full information to their patients) and reality (simply informing their patients of they are going to do, or not properly understanding what might have gone wrong because they failed to keep up with literature), of course patients are going to look for their own information on the Net. We are actually pretty light on 'information'. I generally make little reference beyond Ashton's Manual, because it usually contains all the information required for someone withdrawing from benzodiazepines (and for their doctor, if intersted enough to read it). I am not suggesting that it is the only reference point, but it the one I prefer, but other members might better value other reference material. The primary function of BenzoBuddies is to provide a support space for its members, but maybe we can improve upon the information we provide. But, we will never attempt to take over the role that should be properly provided by doctors and other healthcare practitioners. This, however, does not prevent members from discussing the issues; the help we provide is discussion-based and peer-support orientated.

 

I trusted my pdoc to precribe the appropriate medication for me as I think most people do. They are, after all, the experts in mental health field. In the 13 years I was on benzos, not once did any pdoc (had three) attribute my ongoing recurrent/clinical depression and anxiety to benzos.

 

Yes, and it would be foolish to not consult with an expert when considering your healthcare needs. This doesn't mean they cannot make mistakes, or fail to keep up with the literature, or properly consider side effects, or problems associated with withdrawal. Medicine is very complicated, and imprecise (it is not quantum mechanics or mathematics - it is soft-science). It is the nature of the beast , and arises from a lack of exact and full information. Still scientific - just inexact.

 

In Canada, pdoc are part of our free health care so we are very lucky. But there is an influx of mental health patients year over year, and not enough pdocs to treat them. The system is at its breaking point I think. There is a wait list at our mental health unit in our hospital (I heard it was over a year); unless you are in a really bad state, then you go to Emergency and then you will get a pdoc.

 

There is a similar shortage of resources in the UK. Even the US, where access is usually very quick, it is quick and accessable only for those with good (expensive) insurance, and then the insurer might not pay up for the treatment. There is now very little affordable talk therapies available to patients in the UK, Canana, the US, and elsewhere, so psychiatrists and psychiatry are going to reply (too much) upon the medicines. It is economics.

 

My appointments are literally 15 minutes long. My pdoc got extra patients last year. So my last appointment was in December and my next one is in May and we talk medication and he always say these meds are good because the psychiatric booklet says so (he showed me this booklet; not the DSM IV) and that other people seem to be doing well on them. I have always had a good relationship with my pdoc.  Lately, he himself, seems very stressed.

 

It is still better to see the specialist (a psychiatrist, in this case). As problematical as is the lack of funding that inevitably leads to the over-prescribing of psychoactive drugs, it is even more problematical when nonspecialists (General Practitioners) prescribe these drugs.

 

I have always been active with my mental health meds but pdoc gave me limited information even though I ask extensive questions.  He truly doesn't know how I will react, how they work (no one does) and that is valid because he does try to help.  He has said that I am treatment resistent (actually we both figured that one out). We continue to try this med or that one and now we are trying tricyclics which are the anti-dep from the 1950s, which have more side effects as opposed to the new ones, but no w/d when stopping. I must say I am truly scared to go on these old AD meds so I have postponed it.

 

I have no problem with the imprecise nature of psychoactive drugs (and drugs in general) - it is the nature of the beast. The science is inexact. What is inexcusable is when some doctors behave as though they are dealing in a precise science - they are not! There are risks with all medicine, but generally far less than the risk of not taking advantage of western medicine (it is still, in the main, scientifically and properly studied and assessed). We should not risk throwing out the baby with the bath water.

 

It has only been 5 months that I became benzo-wise. Before that I was absolutely ignorant. No pdoc gave me a pamphlet to let me know the dangers or warned me. They do not have time to do talk therapy and really inform. That is the state of our free health care. No pdoc charges privately here as it is against the law. To go outside the hospital for a pdoc, one is again on a wait-list for 2 or more years.

 

I was prescribed Clonazepam by my neurologist. I think he rarely prescribes benzodiazepines (they are excellent anticonvulsants, but only the in the short to medium term, at best). I followed the withdrawal schedule he outlined (over about six weeks from 4.5mg). I had no expectation of what would follow. Even when I encountered problems, I did not seek information from the Net. Another neurologist suggested I reinstate when I experienced dreadful withdrawal symptoms. I later discussed these issues with my neurologist - he learned from my experience, and at alter appointment - in front of me - told a medical student that he only made things worse for me. You see, some doctors, even ones at the top of their game (the neurologist is head of neurology at a teaching hospital), do not become arrogant, properly understand that they deal in an inexact science, are lifelong students in their specialty, and will listen to their patients. I've also met some truly dreadful doctors, but that's another story.

 

I go to my GP now, in between pdoc visits, who has the time. My pdoc wanted me to do a quick taper and he seemed somewhat irritated and didn't believe in the equivalency benzo chart. He wasn't interested in my benzo information either. I think I upset him. Instead I went to my GP. My GP is supporting my benzo tapering and supplying me with V and I don't want to tell my pdoc that my GP is helping me because I am sure he will terminate me as a patient. I feel I am in a bit of a delimma. I think I will tell my Pdoc that I am done tapering which will be a lie.

 

The thing about equivalency charts is that it is not just 'disagreement' about what properly constitutes and equivalent dose; few doctors understand that 'equivalency' is only approximate, and will vary from individual to individual (sometimes dramatically so). So, even if their 'equivalency chart' properly describes an average individual, it will NOT describe the majority of their patients in any given situation. They should be flexible.

 

Sorry for the long winded post. I just had to get this out.  I realize most of this information doesn't belong on this thread.

 

Danni

 

No worries - mine was even more long winded.

[[...]]

 

Sorry for the long winded post. I just had to get this out.  I realize most of this information doesn't belong on this thread.

 

Danni

 

No worries - mine was even more long winded.

 

It was a good read ... thanks!

[Guest [Da...]]

Hi Colin:

 

Thank you for taking the time for your thoughtful response to my post Colin. I agree with you.

 

In trying to keep this post short, your idea of improving the information provided would be an excellent idea (when time permits of course) especially categorizing w/d s/x with BB member based experience coupled with a link(s) to reputable site(s). Just a thought for the future.

 

Canada is so behind. It is so sad that benzodiaezpines truth hasn't been exposed. I really think it just a matter of time.

 

I have decided to not change my anti-dep so that my w/d s/x are not complicated by this factor. It would be so easy for a doctor to say that it was because I changed my meds. I have decided to keep everything as is from the beginning of my c/o and tapering. I have no physical illnesses that requires me to be on meds so this should keep it simple.

 

I will be seeing an addictionist specialist (gov't run) soon to help me through my benzo tapering so I get face-to-face interaction and support which I feel is important now. Isolation through this process is not good, at least for me. I know, my GP, who is benzo-wise, is always there for me if I need him. I will figure out something with my Pdoc and if he drops me; so be it. If needed, I can always go to Emergency, wait a long time, and get a new Pdoc. For me, benzo w/d cannot be done without having a doctor on board supporting this process.

 

Maybe I am starting to feel more comfortable on here.

 

Danni

[[jj...]]

I said it before and I'll say it again. The people who post on this site do not paint an accurate depiction of benzo withdrawal. Everyone responds to medications differently, and benzos are no different. People can continue to focus their attention of Ashton as the best guideline to get off these types of medications, but like western medicine is an "inexact science," as Colin stated, benzo withdrawal is in and of itself an inexact science. This is as Colin stated "a peer focused discussion board", and people come on here with anecdotal evidence of what withdrawal looks like.

 

I try and remember that the nature of this type of withdrawal is anecdotal. Not grounded in evidence based practice. Ashton took a sample size of people and studied them over a long period of time. The people she studied made up ONE SAMPLE A LONG TIME AGO. No research like hers has been done since. There are no peer reviewed journals done through the years to more "accurately describe" how best to get off benzodiazepines.

 

If you go and do a pub med search at any major University that provides degree programs in medicine or nursing, you will find thousands of peer reviewed journals from reputable places that look at the safety and effectiveness of blood pressure medication vs exercise and diet. Why? Because researchers and scientists can get the funds to do research on these types of medications and what they do for years and from different samples of the population.

There continues to be a massive interest from the public on these kind of topics. North American societies are obsessed with diet and ways to trim their waistlines. There's money in doing this type of research.

 

There has recently been major improvements made in the field of heart health, from many journal sources stating that the salt intake we currently consume is no different from thousands of years ago, despite increasing blood pressure rates and increased use of blood pressure medication. Health care professionals are studying this and are adjusting their practice guidelines to reflect this research.

 

You could look at benzo withdrawal as qualitative research. Qualitative research focuses on looking at trends and themes in people's experiences. The major trends and themes in the posts I read on this particular site are of people who are suffering coming off these meds.  There is not a representative sample of people coming off with few problems.

 

No matter what way you approach it, doctors, patients and families who have family members going through benzo withdrawal cannot draw conclusions of what side effects or what withdrawal will look like. It is unfortunate and unfair. Millions of people are addicted to benzodiazepines world wide. There is, although not seen, samples of this population coming off these drugs with few problems!

 

 

[[ja...]]

Interesting jjbutterfly..

 

However.. I actually do believe people who Post on this Site paint a very Clear and Accurate picture. Its the Picture of a human who has lost most to all human function. That's sums up my W/D.

 

Sure there are many who don't even suffer w/d . They stop and that's that. But for many here who are suffering Benzo w/d we can kinda say we feel ya! I know for me this w/d was super creepy and surreal trying to explain to people in my real life was not having any results of Validation. Then I came here and what do you know we all speak the same language!Crazy huh.

 

Anywho. Interesting point of view and very detailed ..I think I'm going to read that again very insightful

 

~Jenny

[Guest [Da...]]

Hi JJButterfly:

 

Your post is very interesting and there are some very good points. Everyone is different when w/d from benzos (degrees of severity) and s/x. There is no disputing that. Just like everyone is different when tolerating one anti-depressant (even dosage level; class (SSRI, SNRI, atypicals)) as opposed to another. Or even the benzo of choice one originally goes on. My personal experience with benzos has been in the mental health area and that is all it is...my experience and research.

 

Benzos are supposed to be used for treatment of seizures first. It is given out as an anti-anxiety more because that is what they are coined as "anti-anxiety" meds. Also, the perscription sleeping pill (benzo). I don't know why long term benzo use are given to people for other medical issues. My experience has only has been for treatment for anxiety. Our pdocs here (where I live) use Clonazepam for the treatment of anxiety. I once asked my Pdoc if many people are on Clonazepam for anxiety and he said yes.

 

I think there are the "usual suspects" of w/d s/x that people do suffer through when w/d from benzos. The s/x appear to mimic depressive, anxiety and flu like symptoms and many are general  s/x that could be attributed to any other illness.

 

I know I am experiencing benzo w/d s/x and I try and manage them myself. A few weeks ago, I went to our gov't run addiction services and spoke to an addiction specialist. She agreed that there are benzo w/d s/x and seemed to know about many of them. I refuse to predict my w/d s/x and I take it day by day. If a physical s/x does come up, I will seek an opinion from my doctor to rule out other illnesses.

 

In regard to Prof Ashton's list of w/d s/x and other medweb sites; there are a mind-bloggling number of them according to these sources. Dwelling on any of these is not a good idea. 

 

My GP told me this. He said that doctors (and pdocs in particular) are faced with making difficult decisions giving benzos to patients. If a patient on an anti-depressant comes in with, let say, extreme anxiety and seeks relief, the only drugs available so far to treat mental health anxiety issues are benzos for immediate relief. When that same patient comes back and says he/she is still suffering from anxiety, what is a doctor to do...deny relief and drug treatment. Anyway, that is his opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent.

 

The major trends and themes in the posts I read on this particular site are of people who are suffering coming off these meds.  There is not a representative sample of people coming off with few problems.

 

That appears to be the case in regards to posts on here. The unseen samples of the benzo use population coming off these drugs with few problems is exactly that. We just do not know, but can only speculate that there are some.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Danni

[[jj...]]

Danni you said "In regard to Prof Ashton's list of w/d s/x and other medweb sites; there are a mind-bloggling number of them according to these sources. Dwelling on any of these is not a good idea."

 

These sites are not founded in evidence based research! That's my point. I am speaking as a health care professional. Whenever you talk to a patient about treatments or health teaching you talk to them using health based knowledge grounded in evidence. Do you understand what I mean by evidence based? Randomized control trials ensure:

    Random allocation to intervention groups

 

    Patients and trialists should remain unaware of which treatment was given until the study is completed-although such double blind studies are not always feasible or appropriate

 

    All intervention groups are treated identically except for the experimental treatment

 

    Patients are normally analysed within the group to which they were allocated, irrespective of whether they experienced the intended intervention (intention to treat analysis)

 

    The analysis is focused on estimating the size of the difference in predefined outcomes between intervention groups.

 

In other words, such types of research allow scientists to determine other factors involved in the outcomes of their study. For example, we still do not know if genetics plays a role in determining how well someone will come off this med, or if certain foods aid in the withdrawal process.

 

When you talk about "medweb" sites, they do not come from credible resources. My point is that you have to be careful about what you read, it is some people's experience, not all people's experience! 

[[we...]]

These sites are not founded in evidence based research!

 

Ashton has published in peer-reviewed journals.  It's as close to research if you're going to get.

 

The DSM on the other hand, is not based on science. It's closer to a book of witchcraft.

 

I do agree that it's best not to dwell on all the symptoms particularly if you don't have them. Worry is not a predictor of outcome.

[[jj...]]

Like I said, for something to be more accurate you need more than one research article. Ashton was one researcher. No one since her has done randomized control trials to look at other interventions for people who want to withdrawal from benzos. Many health related issues continue to reveal a learning curve for health professionals and patients/clients.

 

Ashton didn't do any studies on the association of foods and benzo withdrawal, genetics, ethnicity, etc. The list could go on and on. I'm not bashing Ashton, rather, stating that no one has continued to study factors that effect benzo withdrawal into the 21st century. This is what is needed for health care professionals and patients to make more informed decisions about how best to approach withdrawal.

 

 

For example, what if there was a gene in our biochemistry that could somehow be turned on or off through some mechanism to down regulate Gaba receptors in our brains, so people suffer less withdrawal?  Do you know how much research has been done now, to recognize certain genes that are turned on or off in certain disease processes.? I have a friend who is doing her Ph.D in cancer research and finding genes that get turned on and result in an over production of cell growth! Do you know how much money is going into these kinds of projects? Millions! They have 4 research buildings in downtown Toronto dedicated to this very cause, with thousands of students and scientists working on projects to help cure cancer!

 

The inaccuracies in how to approach an appropriate taper have more to do with the lack of recent research than anything else! Health care professionals and patients have little information to use to make an informed choice on how best to taper! It's like an analogy for Vimy Ridge in the first world war. There are signs and fenced off areas around the trenches where men fought and died at this very spot in France.  The fence is there to protect the public from stepping in any areas that are buried with bomb shells that we still don't know an exact location for.

 

People suffering from benzos are going in blind in an open mine field. Each of us approach a taper, not knowing what the outcome will be. Will we suffer and step on a bomb shell or will we be able to step around the shells?

 

If someone could just get funding, and do more research the "inexactness," of medicine would be less so, for people addicted to benzodiazepines.