Tapering off Ativan Support Thread

[[aw...]]

May I see the data, please?

 

Aweigh

[[...]]

Here's wikipedia on benzodiazepine withdrawal:

In certain selected patient groups, the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms is as high as 100%, whereas in unselected patient groups, more than 50% of subjects are able to discontinue benzodiazepines with mild or even no withdrawal symptoms at all

 

Here is the Ashton manual quote in chapter II subtitle Why should you come off benzodiazepines?

At the other extreme, some people can stop their benzodiazepines with no symptoms at all: according to some authorities, this figure may be as high as 50% even after a year of chronic usage. Even if this figure is correct (which is arguable) it is unwise to stop benzodiazepines suddenly.

 

I have also seen other mentionings here and there during my literature searches in these ranges. I say "experts" in quotes because I have never found real data demonstrating what % of people can come off easily. Various writers have made claims in these numeric ranges seemingly based on personal opinion, experience or conjecture. Clearly, some people do have little or no problems coming off benzos and others are in deep doo doo.

 

Sucks, don't it. I suspect those of us having long standing problems getting off are really a minority in the benzo user population. Librium was the first benzo introduced in the 60's followed by Valium which rapidly became the most prescribed drug in America for quite a few years. If everyone had all kinds of problems stopping benzos even after a short duration of use, surely this would have been well recognized long ago. I suspect the % of people with severe withdrawal problems like us is quite small. I've lectured lots of doctors, med students, pharm students and others over the years in my field which is not benzo related. While I've wondered about some of them, most of these guys and gals are not idiots.

[[be...]]

Sign me up for that gene change.

 

[[Ho...]]

Me too!!!

 

BDL, hang in there.  Look at how far you've come.  And you WILL do this.  I don't know what it is with Ativan (maybe the short half life, maybe it is the kindling thing), but for some of us it just digs its claws in hard.  The best we can do is listen to our bodies, take it as slow as is comfortable, rest, avoid stress, and try and eat a bit healthier (for me, I find that the more protein, the better).  You have so much going for you, that this thing will not BEAT YOU.  YOU CAN DO IT!!!

 

And to everyone else, I've had a better couple of days so thanks for the encouragement.  It was topped off yesterday with my son winning our church's Halloween costume contest with Wall-e!!  ((Insert virtual cartwheel here!!  )) 

 

If I could figure out how to post a pic, I would!

[[Al...]]

I know I belong to the group that won't come off this med easy, in fact theway I feel right now, I wonder if I will ever get off this stuff.

I practice yoga meditation, relaxation, mindfulness , guided imagery. I listen to calming music, drink relaxing teas. avoid stress

you name it, every trick in the book.

 

And yet, here I lay a wretch.

[[Li...]]

AllTiedUp- you can do this..... You know you can...... I see the journey you've made so far (thanks to your sig ) and, really, it will happen for you.  I wonder why the last little bits of A seem to be excruciatingly hard to part with for so many?  I've cut today, now just under 3 mgs A to 2.72.  I have a long way to go but, I just can't cut more than 8-10% - then hold or a few weeks.  I'm not sure how I'll react to the taper when I'm where you're at, only time will tell.

 

Just remember...... I know you know this, you have a ton of support here...... Just when you need it, it's here.  Peaceful, healing thoughts coming your way- 

 

:)Live

 

Hoosier!  Congrats on winning best costume !  Didn't you make the costume yourself?  So you AND your little guy are winners!!  ;)It would be great if you could post a pic.... I love Wall-E .  I don't know how to put pics on here either.....  I do miss the days of making costumes.......  My 13yo son is "considering" dressing up.....and my 20yo daughter is dressing up but......they seem to like to buy costumes at this point  :'(. Oh well, my little dog will dress up as a bumble bee . So glad you're feeling better!!!

 

Peace and Hugs to you  :)Live

[[Li...]]

Hey Birdman- just saw your post -  I don't think that holding until you feel stabilized is a bad thing.....maybe Mairin33 can answer ths better than I, because she did have a long hold after a large drop......

 

It seems that it would make sense to cut once you've stabilized from previous cut.  At least that's what I'm doing.  It seems to be about 2 weeks...... I'm still at a pretty high dose though, I know things will it likely change as I go lower as it looks like Ashton, BDL, ATU can probably speak to..... Are you not feeling like you're stabilizing?  Everyone's experience with this is soo different, it's crazy.

 

About your bp...... It seems several of us are experiencing the opposite of your bp plight.  Dealing with low bp....... I know my tinnitus (among other things) is constant and pretty severe, but I think it could be tied to blood sugar for me.  Its "quieter" after I eat something ...Hoosier mentioned protein..... I think protein is key....especially protein shakes for me.....with bananas...... I don't know if you're having protein shakes or not, but maybe worth a shot?  Sorry, I don't know much about beta blockers.... Maybe post in the supplements/alternative therapies section.... Good luck

 

Peace-

Live

[[Al...]]

Liveinthenow,

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am hugely motivated to win this battle but It is definitely a tough go!

 

Good luck to you andall of us on thisroad!

[[Bi...]]

Hi, has any of you successfully converted to the Ashton method?    I am having trouble micro cutting the Ativan up.

[[ce...]]

Hi, has any of you successfully converted to the Ashton method?    I am having trouble micro cutting the Ativan up.

Cutting Ativan doesn't work. You can get compounded doses at a Compounding Pharmacy if your doctor is willing to prescribe it for you. 

 

Are you considering switching to Valium?  Many people do that so that they don't have to take doses 3-4 times a day to avoid interdose wd from Ativan. 

[[aw...]]

Hi, Cedartree:

I agree that cutting A doesn't work. Espescially when doses get lower. One alternative is to put the A in solution; then you can measure out any dose you want to. That's how I hope to do my taper, using very small cuts, so I guess the liquid titration thread is where I'll be hanging out.

 

Take care,

 

Aweigh

[[sa...]]

Hi, has any of you successfully converted to the Ashton method?    I am having trouble micro cutting the Ativan up.

 

Hey Birdman, I thought I just read that as you got down to .5 ativan (which I think is the lowest dose it comes in) you were considering crossing over to Valium. I did cross over to valium. I didn't really give it a thought. I have had a pretty easy taper, actually. I would do it agin if I had to do it over. You can find me at my buddy blog or pm me if you want more specific info, plus there is a liquid valium thread here somewhere. It can get confusing, some people micro taper. I went down by .2 mg every 11 days until the last 1 mg and then I went down by .1 every 11 days ( I used liquid val to achieve this, my dr was surprisingly helpful)

 

You will get amazing support here whichever you choose to do. Good luck and hang in there. You are going to get your life back.

 

xoxo

Sarah~

[[be...]]

Hey sarah. Thanks for the post. How has it been since you stepped off?

 

 

BDL

[[Al...]]

sarah norris,

 

Congrats on getting off this stuff. I am going to try and get down to .5 A then cross to V.

 

Was it a difficult cross over?

[[ce...]]

Hi, Cedartree:

I agree that cutting A doesn't work. Espescially when doses get lower. One alternative is to put the A in solution; then you can measure out any dose you want to. That's how I hope to do my taper, using very small cuts, so I guess the liquid titration thread is where I'll be hanging out.

 

Take care,

 

Aweigh

I've heard people on this thread say that Ativan is not water soluable. I don't know much about it though because I never tried.  There is the alternative of Liquid Ativan also.

[[Al...]]

I have been dissolving my Ativan in 100 mls. of water from the start. I get the sublingual .5 tabs from my Doc. They are the ones made to dissolve under your tongue. I find they dissolve more easily in the water. Then I extract the portion I am taking away. ie: I put two .5 tabs in the 100 mls of water, then with a syringe, I draw out 30 mls. This brings my dose down to .7 mgs of A. then to keep my liquid at 100mls, I add 30 mls. of water back in. This just makes it easier to dispense the 4 doses through out the day.             

[[Ma...]]

Hi,

 

I just wanted to address something.  Cedar, I think you're great and you have come through a lot.  I realize I am still on a high dose of ativan, but I would disagree when you say that "you can't cut Ativan'.  I have an am cutting Ativan.  I've dry cut from 8 to 5 mgs so far.  And so far I am doing ok with that.  I've also read of many other people that have dry cut ativan, Beeper is one.

 

I do realize I may reach a point where dry cutting is no longer going to work, but so far its been ok.  One of the most encouraging posts to me was from a guy who was on 8 mgs A and cut by .5 a month all the way down to 2 mgs.  He said after that it became impossbile for him to cut, and he stayed on the 2 mgs for a few years until he discovered the valium method.  Then he switched to that at 18 mgs, cut down for about a year and is doing remarkably well.

 

so perhaps not EVERYBODY can cut ativan, but some people can.  But its great to have the alternatives of titrating, compounding and cross over to V when its no longer possible.

 

Hugs, Mairin

[[Kl...]]

Hi,

 

I just wanted to address something.  Cedar, I think you're great and you have come through a lot.  I realize I am still on a high dose of ativan, but I would disagree when you say that "you can't cut Ativan'.  I have an am cutting Ativan.  I've dry cut from 8 to 5 mgs so far.  And so far I am doing ok with that.  I've also read of many other people that have dry cut ativan, Beeper is one.

 

I do realize I may reach a point where dry cutting is no longer going to work, but so far its been ok.  One of the most encouraging posts to me was from a guy who was on 8 mgs A and cut by .5 a month all the way down to 2 mgs.  He said after that it became impossbile for him to cut, and he stayed on the 2 mgs for a few years until he discovered the valium method.  Then he switched to that at 18 mgs, cut down for about a year and is doing remarkably well.

 

so perhaps not EVERYBODY can cut ativan, but some people can.  But its great to have the alternatives of titrating, compounding and cross over to V when its no longer possible.

 

Hugs, Mairin

 

HI Mairin, just stopping stopping by to see how you are doing. It looks like you are getting lots of good advice. In my brief experience, it was very difficult to dry cut Ativan below 1mg/day....and at that level I needed to dose 4 times/day. I got down to 0.75mg Ativan before crossing to Valium but I had horrible withdrawal so I would not say that I was successful dry cutting at such a low level of Ativan. I don't think you need to worry about this for a while but you may want to start discussing a cross over to valium with your doctor once you are down to about 2mg Ativan/day.

 

Most of the folks I have seen on BB who stayed on Ativan all the way did so only because their doctor would not write a script for Valium or they had a reaction to Valium or they had not found BB.

 

Glad that you are doing so well. Believe that you are healing and don't trust those "other" feelings. God bless

[[ce...]]

Hi,

 

I just wanted to address something.  Cedar, I think you're great and you have come through a lot.  I realize I am still on a high dose of ativan, but I would disagree when you say that "you can't cut Ativan'.  I have an am cutting Ativan.  I've dry cut from 8 to 5 mgs so far.  And so far I am doing ok with that.  I've also read of many other people that have dry cut ativan, Beeper is one.

 

I do realize I may reach a point where dry cutting is no longer going to work, but so far its been ok.  One of the most encouraging posts to me was from a guy who was on 8 mgs A and cut by .5 a month all the way down to 2 mgs.  He said after that it became impossbile for him to cut, and he stayed on the 2 mgs for a few years until he discovered the valium method.  Then he switched to that at 18 mgs, cut down for about a year and is doing remarkably well.

 

so perhaps not EVERYBODY can cut ativan, but some people can.  But its great to have the alternatives of titrating, compounding and cross over to V when its no longer possible.

 

Hugs, Mairin

Mairin, it's easy to dry cut Ativan at the doses you're talking about. Cutting from 8 mg's to 5 mg's is a peice of cake.  That's not what I'm talking about.  Wait until you get down to the smallest doses.  Yes, it is impossible to do unless you are able to weigh the powder and measure it with a scale and compound yourself.  Most of us are not pharmacists with that kind of ability and equipment.  Cutting by .5 mg's is very simple.  Just cut the pills in half.  Trust me, you're not going to find it easy to jump off from .5 mg's.  I tapered a long time off of .5 mg's of Ativan to my last dose of .0312 mg's.  That's when a Compounding Pharmacy was more than necessary.  Also, Ativan is not water soluable.  You can get liquid Ativan though and taper that way.

 

BTW, it's much easier to make large cuts (like .5 mg's) in the beginning.  It's not at all easy at the end.  You'll see what I'm talking about when you get there. But, sounds like you're quite a ways off from that yet.  I'll have to look to see what Beeper did, you've got me curious.  Maybe he jumped from a fairly high dose of Ativan.  Trust me, cutting past .25 mg's is not possible. YOu wind up with crumbs and inconsistant doses.  Just wait. 

[[be...]]

My personal experience has me agreeing with cedar here. I dry cut from 2mg down to .5 and then it became impossible to get even doses. The dry cuts up to that point were relatively easy compared to now. Not to scare anyone. It's jut the way it is. As you get lower there is less benzo covering the withdrawals.

There are however people on here that dry cut as far as they could then jumped.

But that is not tapering. That is jumping. Not a great plan, but it's one way off.

 

I know that for me personally that is not an option. I'm presently feeling as bad as I care to feel. Anything worse wouldn't be worth it.

 

And on top of everything else, I have a cold! Yeah!

 

I'm just holding my dose and flooding myself with liquids and zicam. And episodes of Walking Dead.

 

Hope you all are having a wonderful evening.

 

BDL

 

 

[[ce...]]

BDL, LOL, episodes of Walking Dead.    Sounds like a fun distraction!   

 

Sorry to hear you have a cold on top of wd, what a bummer.  Hope you get feeling better soon.

 

I agree that getting off at those doses is not at all tapering, but jumping (cold turkey).  You just don't realize what an incredibly high dose that is until you try to stop at that point.  It's actually very dangerous.  Especially if you've been taking benzo's for any real length of time, like years.

 

Anyway, eat some soup and get better soon. We need your success story BDL.   

[[aw...]]

Hi, Cedartree:

I agree that cutting A doesn't work. Espescially when doses get lower. One alternative is to put the A in solution; then you can measure out any dose you want to. That's how I hope to do my taper, using very small cuts, so I guess the liquid titration thread is where I'll be hanging out.

 

Take care,

 

Aweigh

I've heard people on this thread say that Ativan is not water soluable. I don't know much about it though because I never tried.  There is the alternative of Liquid Ativan also.

I should have clarified that I meant solution or suspension, apparantly both will work. Ativan is not soluble in water, but it can be used as a suspension in water if kept well-stirred when measuring or dosing. Other things will dissolve A, (alcohol, propylene glycol, probably whole milk) and they each have their own peculiarities. There is disagreement about some of this. There, that should make everything clear 

 

aweigh

[[be...]]

Yeah I think the disagreement about ativan's disaolvability stems from the fact that ativan isn't technically water soluable. Water soluable means that something can completely dissolve into liquid forming a homogenous mixture. Ativan in fact cannot do this. In water or milk or anything. The best it can do is form a suspension that needs to be shakin vigorously just befor taking in order to evenly distribute the necessary molecules throuh out the mixture. Milk supposedly works better because its thicker and holds everything in place longer. Even my suspension that I have compounded by a pharmacist needs to be shaken a lot. Says so right on the bottle. Anyway, this is my understanding.

Even though it is not water soluable, it still can be dissolved in water, shaken, and drawn into a syringe with little margin of error when done carefully.

 

Why am I up right now?

 

BDL

 

[[Ma...]]

Hi Awiegh, from reading your signature it seems you've come down .5?  That's great, you've made some movement downward.  Or is it 1? 

 

Was wondering if you could start a progress log, I have one. Just be nice to see how it goes for you.  I'm still on 5, hoping to go down to 4.75 soon. 

 

Hugs to you,

Mairin

[[aw...]]

Hi,  Mairin33:

 

I think my sig is unclear. I haven't changed my daily dose at all. What I have done is go from 6 mg Ativan 1X day to (almost there) 2 mg 3X day. Plenty of sx. When I'm stable and relatively sx-free at that dose, I'll begin my slow liquid taper. Hopefully, 1 month. I started to go to liquid dosing, then remembered a basic principle of pharmacologic equilibrium: only change one variable at a time. Then, when things go kablooey, you might be able to figure out why. So I'll go liquid after I stabalize my dose.

 

I'll definitely keep a log when I start the taper. Thanks for the interest and encouragement.

 

aweigh