Tapering off Ativan Support Thread

[[be...]]

Once again, no one at any point suggested that tapering is not a good idea or that abrupt wd is a good idea. Remember, I'm of the opinion that there is some healing happening. My only issue was with this statement,

 

" GABA receptor upregulation and complimentary pathway changes will occur in direct relation to benzodiazepine levels throughout the taper."

 

It strikes me as too simple to be true. And if it were true, then tapering would be a pretty simple affair. Which clearly it's not. And again, this study doesn't suggest this either. It simply says people prefer gradual wd over cold turkey. DUH. I don't need a study to convince me of that.

But a gradual taper could really just preparing your body very slowly for having no benzo. At which point a new type of healing, a type which has not yet occurred because you are still on drugs, takes place. But I don't know. None of us do. We listen. We cut. We hurt. We don't. We cut. And occasionally, we argue about stuff that none of us truly understand 

 

But it passes the time. And that is certainly worth something.

 

Love you guys. Gnight.

 

 

BDL

 

 

[[be...]]

Hey BDL-

 

You are getting so much great advice!  We all, like you, just want to read your success story........trust me, it will happen, sooner than you think.  I know that I'm a long way off from being even close to where you are in your taper, but, just want to reiterate something that Mairin33 and I think hoosierfans mentioned.  If I were in your shoes, I would seriously c/o to V.  There are just sooooo many members of our "Club" that have had to do this towards the bitter end.  I'm pretty sure I'll have to, although, I'd prefer not to.  If my sx are like yours when I'm where you are, I'll at least try a c/o. Just my two cents

 

I hopeyou're having a good day

 

Live

 

 

Hey there Live. Why don't you cross over sooner rather than wait till the bitter end if you are so sure about the Valium? Just curious.

[[Li...]]

 

 

 

Hey there Live. Why don't you cross over sooner rather than wait till the bitter end if you are so sure about the Valium? Just curious.

 

Hey BDL-

Very good question. My concern with crossing over now is the sedation from crossing over to 27mg of Valium.  I have pretty severe depression issues - constant battle really.  The equivalent Valium dose would be pretty high and very sedating.  It would probably make my depression completely unmanageable.  So far the A taper is going ok, but I have a long way to go.  Like I said, towards the end (under 1mg A) if my sx are too intense, I think I'd rather be a little sedated at that point.  Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

-Live

 

 

[[be...]]

If I knew for sure that Valium would help during this home stretch I would certainly switch.

I'm worried about complications. If it doesn't take, then we are talking weeks or even months of setback. Painful withdrawal. Not sure I can risk that just yet.

I did have a really bad day recently but so far it seems to be pretty isolated. I held for an extra week. Now I'm thinking ill just try cutting half as often. See if that helps. If it doesn't, then it looks like Valium may be my only option. We'll see.

I'm definitely open to the idea. But I'm not convinced yet that it will make this part all that much easier. I'm sleeping ok as it is. And I'm able to stablilze. I'm not in a tailspin or anything. It's just rough sometimes. Pffffff not sure. I see my doc on November 2nd. Ill definitely open the Valium discussion again. Thanks!

 

BDL

 

 

 

[[ce...]]

Once again, no one at any point suggested that tapering is not a good idea or that abrupt wd is a good idea. Remember, I'm of the opinion that there is some healing happening. My only issue was with this statement,

 

" GABA receptor upregulation and complimentary pathway changes will occur in direct relation to benzodiazepine levels throughout the taper."

 

It strikes me as too simple to be true. And if it were true, then tapering would be a pretty simple affair. Which clearly it's not. And again, this study doesn't suggest this either. It simply says people prefer gradual wd over cold turkey. DUH. I don't need a study to convince me of that.

But a gradual taper could really just preparing your body very slowly for having no benzo. At which point a new type of healing, a type which has not yet occurred because you are still on drugs, takes place. But I don't know. None of us do. We listen. We cut. We hurt. We don't. We cut. And occasionally, we argue about stuff that none of us truly understand 

 

But it passes the time. And that is certainly worth something.

 

Love you guys. Gnight.

 

 

BDL

BDL, I love the way your mind works! I really like you and fully agree with this. Well done.

 

Take care of you. I know you'll get off of this stuff and get well again soon.  You're terrific!!!

 

Sincerely,

Cedar

[[kq...]]

Hi,  I just really learned about the effects of taking Ativan for 4 months.  I didn't understand what was happening to me but I think i've been going through severe tolerance withdrawal during this time.  I still have the symptoms and as I ' begin my taper I wonder if these symptoms will remain or go away...?

[[...]]

Occam's razor-'When you have two competing theories making similar predictions, the simpler one is more apt to be correct'

[[Ma...]]

kwerty,

 

Can you elaborate a bit more?  You said "this time" have you been on benzos before?

 

.5 is not an effective dose for a lot of people.  It will wear off before 24 hours.  If you split the 1 mg in 4 and take it 4 times a day, it might help you not to feel so bad.  If you try that first before tapering, it may make the taper smoother.

 

If you've been on benzos before, and gotten off, this might be kindling.

[[be...]]

Actually Occam's Razor states that the theory making the fewest assumptions will tend to be correct more often. As far as I can tell, the theory that you are clinging to for dear life is one giant assumption.

I'm not saying its wrong. I'm just cautious to believing anything about any of this at this point. Everyone reacts so differently to this process that there is no point in taking any if this as gospel. But if it helps you I totally understand. Its nice to feel sure about something. I'm trying to.

 

 

BDL

[[...]]

Have a nice day

[[zo...]]

But a gradual taper could really just preparing your body very slowly for having no benzo. At which point a new type of healing, a type which has not yet occurred because you are still on drugs, takes place.

 

Hello BDL. I'm a bit confused by what you have written. It may be my benzo brain, so forgive me if I'm missing something obvious!

 

Are you saying that the healing which occurs when you are benzo free is of an entirely different nature than the healing which takes place during your taper?

 

I can't understand that because I would have guessed that the benzo-free healing was essentially completing the healing which started during the taper.

 

-Zoner

[[kq...]]

Thanks Mairin33,

 

I've taken Ativan over the years, but for short periods at a time.

For the first time ever, I've taken Ativan for months consistently, but the dosage sporadically.  One day .5mg, the next 1mg, and then maybe none the next day. So I feel like I've been going through some sort of between dose w/d for weeks now. I've been more anxious, depressed, paranoid, unable to concentrate, loss of interest in life, etc.  my mornings are just awful, can barely get out of bed. so if i get consistent with a dose i hope i can stabilize/taper and some of these w/d symptoms will go away.

 

 

 

[[be...]]

Hey Zoner. That subject got blown out of proportion. I'm not saying anything. There were people saying that healing doesn't occur during taper and people saying that it definitely does. I was playing devils advocate to Bart who was saying that essentially you heal all the way down and when you are off you are all better.

 

Although now that you mention it, yes in my opinion, benzo free healing will be of a different nature. For obvious reasons. Obvious to me anyway. Throughout your taper you are still relying on benzos. When you finally jump it is a whole new era of healing and your will brain chemistry will finally have to adjust once and for all to a benzo free climate. Maybe someone who has completed a taper can chime in and offer some true, imperical evidence.

 

I don't know. Just riffing here. Don't quote me on this.

 

BDL

[[Ma...]]

kwerty,

 

Its sounds like you are starting to have trouble.  You can't just lay it down like you did in the past.  Kindling is what they call it when you have been on and off benzos several times.  You may get off easily the first time or two, but after that it becomes harder.

 

I'm not sure where you should go with this.  Maybe the best thing would be to get on a steady dose and taper from there.  Think about what you want, do you want to get off permanently?  That would mean you have to resolve in yourself to get off and never go back on.  You may be passed the point of being able to take as needed anymore.

[[be...]]

Hey Kwerty. You will very likely begin to feel better if you stabilize your dose and move it to four even intervals. Try to stabilize at the lowest possible dose. Then give it about two weeks. More if you need it but I wouldn't go over 3.

What you are describing is withdrawal. Good luck. You will get a handle on it faster than many because you are aware if what's happening an you are among friends here. Don't sweat it too much. It's totally doable. Keep us posted!

 

 

BDL

[[kq...]]

Thanks BDL and Mairin33, I just hope i can stabilize @.75 mg and get rid of these awful withdrawal symptoms.  I took .375 this morning and will do same tonight. My mornings are the worst (sometimes starting @ 3am)  and I tend to get better as the day goes on.  Thanks for your support!

 

 

[[Ho...]]

K, Mairin and BDL offer excellent advice.

 

BDL, ok, I'll "bite" about the healing on the way down.  Here's my experience....when you take it low and slow, yes, you heal on the way down and then there is some additional complete healing once you are off.  I base this on my past experiences with Klonopin.  I successfully tapered two times before -- off of .75 mg / day but cutting by 1/3 (I know!!) and then holding for 4-6 weeks.  I "healed" on the way down in the sense that I would have a couple days of nasty side effects, then it would let up and I would feel improvement in my baseline for several weeks before I cut again.

 

Contrast that with my Ativan taper.  It made me feel so bad I wanted off.....so while I cut a less percent, I cut more frequently and overall took only 8 weeks to get off 1.5 mg / day.  I would say at the beginning I "healed" on the way down.....would cut, feel nasty for 4-5 days and then feel improvement in my baseline.  Then, the last 4 weeks, I cut before I got stabilized and felt that improvement, so not only do I think I didn't "heal" on the way down, I think I did some additional damage (whether mentally or physically).  I like to think of it as picking a scab (sorry for the graphic explanation), but if you leave a scab alone, it will heal faster; if you pick at it, not only will it not heal, but it can get larger and worse.    So for me, that was true towards the end.  It also explains why at 3 months out I am still having lots of issues.  BUT, it's also the Ativan itself (v. K) and the fact that just prior to Ativan, I was jacked around on benzo doses and SSRI doses for about 16 months prior.....so my CNS was not starting from a good point.

 

All that is to say that I think if you go low and slow, and keep what you put into your body the same (meds, diet, etc), you do heal on the way down.  But, there is some residual healing that will only happen when you are off.  If you go fast, yes you will heal some on the way down, and absolutely when you are off, but your body has much more to heal from.....so in the overall scheme it takes longer.

 

Oh, and your comment about the "other side" of the wave (i.e. window).....haven't seen one of those yet.  Wish I had.  Going on 21 months and nada, but believe me when I see one you guys will know about it!!!  Right now every day I'm somewhere between riding a surfboard on the North Shore and looking out really crud incrusted windows.    :laugh:  Either way, just trying to keep my head up.   

[[Ma...]]

Hi Hoosier,

 

I like the scab analogy.

 

In the last few days, I've been wondering about holding times.  I'd like to see a scientific study on holding times of different benzos.  I am wondering if the two week hold is based on using Valium Ashton style.  Ashton talked mainly from the frame of crossover to valium.  I was thinking that Valium has an EXTREMELY long half life, 200 hours.  I was figuring out that two weeks would be a fairly good time frame before you made another cut on Valium.  But what about other drugs that do not have such a long half life?  Xanax is very short acting, and Ativan is just slightly longer than Xanax.  These two drugs would certainly eliminate faster from your body than Valium.  In fact, it seems to me that two weeks is not long enough to eliminate the cut dose of valium, and I was reading something from Bliss Johns that in the UK they are now advising holding for three weeks.

 

But, it seems to me, different drugs have different half lives, they are not all the same.  Also, everybody processes them at their own rate, its not set in stone the exact number of hours everybody will eliminate a dose, due to different metabolisms.

 

I think that maybe the cut dose of ativan does leave your system after a week, but its nice to have another week to stabelize from the cut.  I know there's a lot more factors that go into this, but have just been wondering about this issue of holding time.

[[be...]]

It takes me 3 weeks to recover from a cut sometimes. But when I say recover I'm talking basically zero symptoms. I think I've been luckier then some on here in that I have felt pretty good for a lot of the time during my taper. But when it's bad it's bad.

And I know ativan has a short half life but I've never experienced interdose withdrawal. Just the gradual badness that comes after a cut. And even that takes 3 to 5 days to feel.

Weird.

 

 

BDL

 

[[Wi...]]

I feel it the next day when I cut, but after about 2 to 3 days I start to feel better. Everyone metabolises it differently.

I hope everyone is doing well

 

W

[[be...]]

How's everyone doing? So quiet in here. 

 

I've been ok. Not to many symptoms since my last cut. But I'm going really slow.

The increments on my syringes come out to about 3.5% of my total daily dose which is now .22mg.

I'm coming down 1 of those a week. So that's 14% a month roughly. Hopefully this rate will be tolerable. I'm looking at another 4 to 6 months. Kind of a bummer but I guess it takes as long as it takes.

 

I hope you are all well and have a great day!

 

BDL

[[Ma...]]

Hi BDL,

 

I'm glad you're doing better   Your dose is so low, but maybe 14% a month would be tolerable.  I know the feeling of impatience of going slow.  At this point, as I'm not titrating, and still cutting from a high dose, I'm not having much in the way of symptoms and I keep thinking maybe I could cut faster, but I am afraid to.  I have the experience behind me of a severe drop and I know what this can do to me if I drop too much or go too fast.  I've already dropped more ativan and klonopin that most people ever take, dosage wise I mean.  If 6 K is equal to 12 A, then I've dropped 7.25 mg A equivalent already.  I was so extremely over medicated.  I just find it really hard to believe that doc raised me from the 2.5A I had been on for 10 years to 6 K within a few months.  In hindsight, that seems so negligent to me.  That's what?  72.5 mgs V equivalent, in 7 months?

 

The good news is I HAVE recovered from the horrible symptoms of that drop.  And now I am continuing to cut.  With very little in the way of symptoms, which I think shows I'm still very over medicated.  Don't know where I'm going with saying these things, just, this is what I've had to deal with.

 

There should be some regulation on how much a doc can increase a dose within a certain time period.  My dose was quintupled in a 5 month span.  That's not rational in anyway shape of form.  I'm extremely thankful I found another doc who could see how overmedicated I was and reversed that.  Ugh.

[[St...]]

Hey BB I am currently taking .25mg of lorazepam 4xday its annoying I was on 2mg of this poision since May 2012 never have I taken anything prescription drug like this PDoc gave it to me because I had one panic attack in May was in ER they gave me 1mg so did a follow up with doc two days later then he gave me the poision never even researched  it and I'm one to never take anything that will harm me I don't even like to drink due to that feeling of not being in control maybe a glass of wine on occasion before this poision he never even warned me of any side effects well at the time my Mom was admitted to the hospital was really stressed out she was dieing due to Cancer but now I know my mom would have never have had me on medication I wasn't thinking at the time well my Mom past away June 24 2012 My heart was broken but I had blocked everything from my head or was that the poision I was on so in August I started waking up in the middle of the night shaking and crying hysterically and heart pounding and racing 3am 4am 5am continuously every night come September I wanted off this stuff started to ween went dont to 1 mg of this poision following doc orders September 28 I went in full blown withdrawal and have been all of this month of October but have stabilized at 1mg .25x4 day found a new doc which is caring and tried to cross me over to Kolonopin had an allergic reaction she doesn't want to cross me over to valium wants to do a direct taper from Lorezapam any suggestions on how to taper off this poision and how long before I can't get rid of it I do trust my doc now but I also trust BBs since you guys are going through this and others have succedded anything will help I am determined mentally to come off  and not be dependent on this stuff anymore

[[be...]]

Hi Stacy Boston. Welcome. You are among friends.

Here are a few tips from my personal opinion vault.

 

A. If your doc is supportive you may want to discuss getting liquid ativan.

It will allow tiny, more acurate cuts that will make your taper smoother.

 

B. Be patient. This is going to take longer than you want it to. But you will get through it.

Focus on feeling better and not as much on getting off. It will help.

 

C. Use punctuation. I'm still dizzy from reading your post. 

 

D. Use the withdrawals to confront whatever underlying condition had you taking benzos in the first place. When you are done with this ordeal, you may emerge healthier than when you went in. Explore natural ways to battle anxiety like meditation, exercise, yoga etc.

these things can be life savers for some people.

 

Good luck Stacy. We are here if you have any questions. You will definitely get through this.

 

 

BDL

[[su...]]

Hey BB I am currently taking .25mg of lorazepam 4xday its annoying I was on 2mg of this poision since May 2012 never have I taken anything prescription drug like this PDoc gave it to me because I had one panic attack in May was in ER they gave me 1mg so did a follow up with doc two days later then he gave me the poision never even researched  it and I'm one to never take anything that will harm me I don't even like to drink due to that feeling of not being in control maybe a glass of wine on occasion before this poision he never even warned me of any side effects well at the time my Mom was admitted to the hospital was really stressed out she was dieing due to Cancer but now I know my mom would have never have had me on medication I wasn't thinking at the time well my Mom past away June 24 2012 My heart was broken but I had blocked everything from my head or was that the poision I was on so in August I started waking up in the middle of the night shaking and crying hysterically and heart pounding and racing 3am 4am 5am continuously every night come September I wanted off this stuff started to ween went dont to 1 mg of this poision following doc orders September 28 I went in full blown withdrawal and have been all of this month of October but have stabilized at 1mg .25x4 day found a new doc which is caring and tried to cross me over to Kolonopin had an allergic reaction she doesn't want to cross me over to valium wants to do a direct taper from Lorezapam any suggestions on how to taper off this poision and how long before I can't get rid of it I do trust my doc now but I also trust BBs since you guys are going through this and others have succedded anything will help I am determined mentally to come off  and not be dependent on this stuff anymore

 

Hello,

 

I'm so sorry for the loss of your mother and all you have been through.  Withdrawal hits us hard, emotionally, especially if we were not prepared or aware that dependency issues could occur, and I understand your circumstances.  Having said that, we would kindly ask that the use of the word "poison" to describe your medication not be used as it could be frightening to new members.

Wishing you all the best and luck with your taper.  Please keep posting back..let us know how you are getting along.

 

Sunnyside