Tapering off Ativan Support Thread

[[be...]]

Hey aweigh. I know you aren't my biggest fan these days but we are all in this together so hopefully we can continue to be helpful to one another. 

You may want to consider dry cutting for after you stabilize at your spread out dose as opposed to moving directly to liquid.

I only say this because, and I mean this honestly, liquid becomes a huge pain in the ass. It has to be shaken, it has to be refrigerated. It ties you to a kitchen or at the very least a cooler that you have to drag around with you wherever you go. It's expensive, time consuming and kind of messy. It requires frequent trips to the pharmacy because each batch has a short shelf life so it must be compounded often.

The other reason I suggest this is because of my experience of the last 9 months  in addition to the reports from this forum, you will likely have very little trouble making dry cuts all the way down to about 1 to .5mg of ativan.

I gather that you have some experience with pills and the like but if you haven't tapered liquid before take it from someone who's been at it for many months:

It's not something you want to do unless you find that you need to.

 

Anyway, just chiming in. Really wishing I was done with all of this but not doing too badly here at .224mg but its been a journey to say the least. Wishing you all the best.

 

BDL

[[Ho...]]

Aweigh, "kablooey" is the word of the day.  That made me giggle.   

 

Today was a rough day for me Ativan club....s/x are not too bad....its the other side of this battle.  I had to go down to my office today and clean it out so they could put somebody else in there (but they are still holding my job for me), and then I FINALLY broke down and got in line for Social Security Disability.  Two tough pills to swallow today.

[[Ma...]]

I'm sorry Hoosier   At least the side effects are not too bad.

 

Hugs

Mairin

[[aw...]]

Awww, Hoosier... :'( I remember the day I cleaned out my desk and gave the keys and computer passwords to my replacement, whom I had found, trained, and who was clearly going to be better than me in 6 months. But I knew I wasn't coming back. May it be better for you  .

 

BDL: Yeah, we had some words...and that was a while ago. I've found that hanging on to grudges is what my dad used to call "a real loser's bet". We certainly are all in this together, and I appreciate your advice on dry cutting. My approach to liquid tapering hopefully won't involve many trips to the pharmacy (I'll make the soln. myself) or refrigeration (not needed) and with preparation won't be a messy hassle. I guess I'll find out 

 

I started a thread called "continuous tapering" under 'titration taper plans'. It's this crazy idea I had. As Neils Bohr said to Einstein: "Yes, you're idea is crazy. But, is it crazy enough?". As the heart of the method is making very small cuts (order of 0.015 mg) every day or two (+ dosing many times/day), dry cutting would not be practical. In soln. it should be no problem...I hope. So far, so good. I've done a couple of days using just liquid (milk as solvent, but I'm gonna try other things), so at least I know it does get the drug into the body. I may well find out that it is as you say, liquid tapering is too much hassle. If so, I can always go back to dry cutting. Right? 

 

Take care, and please don't take it amiss if my reply rate is lagging. I've got RA, and it kind of slows me down on the typing.

 

Aweigh

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Hi BDL, Aweigh,

 

BDL, that is the reason I don't really want to titrate if I don't really have to.  But I am prepared to do it if I have to.

 

I've come down from 6 mgs K, with a switch and dry cutting.  The switch was bad and it did throw me into a withdrawal state.  Amazingly, I stabelized from that.  It did take months though.  I should have never been on that dose or that drug.  I also should have never been on ativan but that's another story.  Awiegh you've been on the 6 mgs, you are farily stable.  I know you are changing the dosing times.  I understand you're being careful as you can be.

 

another thing I was concerned about was that the ativan is driving my blood pressure down, and i was hoping to take some of that pressure off.  The cuts I've made have really not been bad.  I definitely agree the brain can handle smaller cuts better.

 

I like your Einstein quote.

Mairin

[[zo...]]

6 mg/day Ativan in single dose for many years.

7/19--Starting transition to 3X day dosing

5 mg:1/2:1/2 ~8h apart (definite w/d sx)

8/2 4 mg:1:1

9/3 2.5:2:1.5

9/16 2:2:2 unpleasant...but here I am

9/21 reinstating to 3:1.5:1.5

9/30 2.5:1.5:1 sx tolerable

10/15 turtling

 

Hello Aweigh. Mairan drew attention to your sig and I see you prefer not to be on "front-loaded" or "skewed-strength" 3 dose schedule.  (If that's the right way if phrasing it!)

 

I notice your trial of 2mg Ativan three times a day didn't seem to suit you.

 

I'm intrigued by this because I got very significant improvement by replacing my nightly sleeping tablet by 3 equal doses of diazepam.

 

I wonder if you have any thoughts on why equal dosing didn't work well for you.

 

-Zoner

[[sl...]]

Hi all, new to the board. Had two rough attempts at getting off of Ativan. My intro is here: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=66367.0

 

I have been Ativan free (after a pretty quick taper) since August and just now having w/d symptoms (insomnia, panic attacks and generalized anxiety). I think I need to do a slow taper. If anyone can recommend a safe and successful way to step down off of 1mg for 3+ years and a fluctuation with .5 mg for the last 8-9 months. I would greatly appreciate it. Going to the shrink in a couple of hours and going to talk about where to start. He is very supportive thank god.

 

I'm a little confused whether I should try titration or substitution taper.

 

Thanks in advance! and I'm glad to have found this forum.

 

S 

 

Hey all. A little update since shit hit the fan at the end of September. Thanks to benzo down lately, Liveinthenow and Mairin33 and others for their help. I went back to see my shrink a second time and after some back and forth went off the Wellbutrin and back on Lexapro. While it wasn't ideal, the prolonged persistent panic has subsided and residual anxiety is getting better each day. Insomnia was the other big issue and after doing some research here and on other sites I decided against the Gabapentin and requested Hydroxyzine. It worked wonders and I stopped taking it last week once I got back into a routine. I've been getting back to incorporating more 12-step work, meditation and diet betterment and its slowly taking hold.

 

Trying to get back on that horse again slowly 

 

 

[[be...]]

It's so hard to admit, because things have been relatively manageable, but I have spent most of today in a terrible wave. For the most part symptoms have been fairly tolerable at this lower dose.

But I am being attacked by my own mind. It's an absolute nightmare. I hate feeling like I'm going insane. I think I've made it through the rough part but I am now on my couch having cancelled all of my evening plans feeling like I've been hit by a bus.

Sorry for the sad update. At times like this I just can't imagine how I am going to make it through this. I sincerely hope you all are having a better day than me. Here's to better times.

 

BDL

[[Ma...]]

Hi BDL,

 

I'm so sorry you are feeling this way.  Have you considered valium?  Seems like you'd only need 2.5 mgs of it.  This is horrible stuff.

 

Hugs

Mairin

[[...]]

It could be just a nasty wave that will pass. If not, I think Mairin offers a reasonable suggestion. I crossed from Ativan to Valium and it went pretty easily. At any rate, you're getting close.

[[be...]]

Thanks for the responses y'all. I have been considering Valium more and more. My psychiatrist has been pushing for it since he read the Ashton stuff but I have been scared to rock the boat. I didn't want to have to switch to a different drug unless it was absolutely necessary. But I'm starting to think that I may need to try something else.

But as I understand it, Valium mainly helps with interdose wd right? That is not my problem. My problem is that I'm having trouble tolerating any kind of cut. I'm trying to stay functional but since I hit about .34mg, cuts have had bad, unpredictable and very unpleasant consequences. It's not working.

I made a 3% cut and had to hold for 3 weeks because I couldn't stabilize recently. I never quite did I guess. I cut about 10% over the course of 2 weeks this month and everything has been tolerable. Not pleasant, but tolerable and then today at around noon for no apparent reason, I'm losing my mind. Fast. I'm doing made up yoga poses in the parking lot because I think it's going to help this nightmarish anxiety. I breathe. I pray to a god that I'm having serious doubts about lately. I'm desperate.

 

Out of nowhere.

 

How can this be? How can it be that these evil pills exist in the first place?

 

Will Valium help? What if it doesn't work and I end up in acute withdrawal. Ill lose my job, my new girlfriend my happiness.

 

I know that noone has these answers but, what do you think?

 

Thanks.

 

 

BDL

[[Ma...]]

I do not know the answers BDL, but I am praying for you right now.

 

I know you're having a hard time making sense of all this right now.

 

I am reading the information you provided about what you've done in the last month or so.

 

What I'm feeling is maybe the cuts were to much.  10% in two weeks at this low level may have been too much.

 

Yes valium can help with interdose w/d, but it also comes in lower strength pills.  Perhaps Aston was onto something when she suggested Valium.

 

Another thing I see is that not long after you switched to liquid you started having more unpredictable cuts.  Perhaps this has something to do with the liquid itself and the amount of ativan in it.  Perhaps its not accurate or the same each time you get a bottle.

 

I totally understand not wanting to switch to valium, but you said "unless it was absolutely necessary".  Maybe you  have come to that point now. 

 

I wish I had better answers for you.  And I will pray.

[[Ma...]]

BDL, I'm here if you want to PM me.

[[be...]]

Thank you Mairin. That was a very sweet and thoughtful response. My next follow up with the doc is in 2 weeks. Maybe by then I will have determined what I want to do.

 

I'm ok at the moment. One thing about a harsh wave is that I'm so drained that I might actually sleep tonight.

 

Peace to you all.

 

BDL

[[Ho...]]

BDL, you are going to be fine and you will get through this.  Let me give you some tough love, because we've both been around here awhile and have tapered together.

 

First, you have come an amazingly long way.  This taper has been so much more successful than your attempts in the past, so YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE IT.   

 

Second, remember how many good days you have had....you are still working, have found love.  Remember that day you said you were able to go rafting? Or mow the lawn???  Those days are still IN YOU.  And the ONLY way to have those days every day is to GET OFF THIS POISON. 

 

Third, please don't discount how functional you have been, and will continue to be.  I wish I was well enough for work.  So, take a few deep breaths and remind yourself that you are a HERO in how you have gotten through this.  And when those intrusive thoughts come, turn around and yell at them to "shut the F**K up!!!"" 

 

Fourth, DO NOT, under any circumstances, predict the future (this is as much telling myself as me telling you).  You don't know what tomorrow holds.  You cannot say that you will lose your job, or your girlfriend, or anything else important in your life.  Just focus on today.

 

And you know what I've learned throughout all of this?  Even if you WOULD lose those things, they all will come back to you in one way or another, and probably even better.  I could not imagine losing all that I have, but I also know that I have gained -- especially some good friends across the virtual space of the internet -- that I would not have had if this hadn't happened to me.

 

Remember, the only way out is through.  And, you were given this life because you are strong enough to live it.  Blessings, my friend.  You are going to make it. 

 

Now go have a good make out session with your girlfriend, a la 7th grade basement party.   

 

((Hugs)))

[[be...]]

Hoosier! Thank you so much. I needed to read that this morning. Especially since that most recent wave seems to have lifted for the most part. So it's extra encouragement as I cautiously move through this day. It's crazy how dismal things seem when you are in the midst of a wave. And when you're out you're like, "what was the big deal?". But don't worry, in case your forgot, here comes another!

Anyway, I'm back on track again I guess. Pretty heavy with the cog fog still but I can handle that.

 

It has to he true that you are healing on the way down right? Otherwise how could one stabilize?

 

BDL

[[ce...]]

BDL, it's my opinion that we don't really start "healing" until we're off the poison.  How can you heal while you're poisoned?  I'm not saying don't taper because that's extremely important.  I just think it's wishful thinking to think you're healing while you're still taking it.  That's just how I see it.

[[be...]]

I do believe that you can't completely heal until you are rid of the drug but SOME healing must take place during a slow taper too. If I had tried to stabilize at .224 8 months ago I would have fallen off the edge of the earth. Today I am stable (ish). What else could explain that but some healing taking place?

Regardless, slow seems to be the way to go. Thanks everyone.

 

 

BDL

[[...]]

Of course healing takes place on the way down during a taper.  For some, there will be re-emergence of pre benzo symptoms and probably certain psychological issues to be dealt with when the taper is over. GABA receptor upregulation and complimentary pathway changes will occur in direct relation to benzodiazepine levels throughout the taper.

[[ce...]]

Of course healing takes place on the way down during a taper.  For some, there will be re-emergence of pre benzo symptoms and probably certain psychological issues to be dealt with when the taper is over. GABA receptor upregulation and complimentary pathway changes will occur in direct relation to benzodiazepine levels throughout the taper.

"Of course healing takes place on the way down during the taper?"

 

Yeah, I don't agree, but that's just my opinion "of course". 

[[be...]]

I'm not sure it's as simple as Bart puts it either. Otherwise it seems like it would get easier at lower doses. As opposed to, not.

[[...]]

I'm not sure it's as simple as Bart puts it either. Otherwise it seems like it would get easier at lower doses. As opposed to, not.

As your dose gets lower on the way down the % of your cut will be higher making it harder unless you lower your cut rate.

As a practical matter just peruse the longer term problem links such as the 7-12 month club and others. You will notice a lot more cold turkeirs and rapid taperers complaining of their lingering symptoms than slow taperers. This is also supported in the scientific literature

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD005194/pharmacological-interventions-for-benzodiazepine-mono-dependence-management-in-outpatient-settings

[[be...]]

My cut rate has been modified and remodified. I now suffer from a 3% cut where as in the beginning I could pretty easily take a 15 percent cut. It's just not as simple as what you are saying. Nor as linear. My guess is that there is a certain portion of the healing that can happen as you taper but there is a portion that you cannot even tackle until they are completely gone. That study you linked seems only to determine that tapering is preferred to ct. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

 

Anyway, making another cut today. Down to .222mg a day! Lord have mercy.

 

BDL

[[Li...]]

Hey BDL-

 

You are getting so much great advice!  We all, like you, just want to read your success story........trust me, it will happen, sooner than you think.  I know that I'm a long way off from being even close to where you are in your taper, but, just want to reiterate something that Mairin33 and I think hoosierfans mentioned.  If I were in your shoes, I would seriously c/o to V.  There are just sooooo many members of our "Club" that have had to do this towards the bitter end.  I'm pretty sure I'll have to, although, I'd prefer not to.  If my sx are like yours when I'm where you are, I'll at least try a c/o. Just my two cents

 

I hopeyou're having a good day

 

Live

[[...]]

My cut rate has been modified and remodified. I now suffer from a 3% cut where as in the beginning I could pretty easily take a 15 percent cut. It's just not as simple as what you are saying. Nor as linear. My guess is that there is a certain portion of the healing that can happen as you taper but there is a portion that you cannot even tackle until they are completely gone. That study you linked seems only to determine that tapering is preferred to ct. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

 

Anyway, making another cut today. Down to .222mg a day! Lord have mercy.

 

BDL

This was a Cochrane Review. Cochrane is a well respected organization that reviews multiple published studies on a given topic to try and arrive at a consensus, in this case benzo withdrawal. They serve as sort of a quality control in published scientific studies by eliminating biased, methodologically lacking or statistically invalid research findings. After reviewing 735 studies, 35 were eligible and 8 met inclusion criteria. They stated progressive withdrawal (tapering) was preferable to abrupt withdrawal due to lower dropout rates and tapering was judged more preferable by participants. This is a strong statement from this conservative organization. While not constituting proof, these results are consistent with progressive healing during the taper. If healing does not begin until after the taper is completed I doubt significant differences would have been detected.