Hellish dilemma - what would you do?

[[kl...]]

Well, buddies, after reading all your wise comments following my 9 hr post-Ambien sleep on Saturday night, which was in turn followed by a sleepless Sunday night, I kicked all my anti-antihistamine sleep aid rhetoric out the window and took a Unisom last night .  I haven't taken one in a couple of weeks so I figured it might be at its maximum potency as well as minimal toxicity for me.  I'm supposed to see a therapist for the first time on Thursday and am trying to space the sleep aids out so that I can get some sleep on Wednesday night.  I may very reluctantly take another Ambien on Wednesday, which will have allowed 3 nights to elapse since the last dose.  I know that's going to elicit groans from some of you and I agree, I don't want to do it but under the circumstances I don't know what other choice I have, assuming my sleep doesn't miraculously improve the next 2 nights.  Incidentally, after my dose of Unisome last night I slept for 10 hrs, a first for me. 

 

 

 

 

[[Sh...]]

That is fantastic ka. I’m so happy for u x

 

U get some relief mate when u need it. No one is judging you. And if they are $!@? Them.

 

Gosh it’s so good to hear u say u have had 2 good nights. That’s a win for our team xx

[[kl...]]

Thanks, Shayna.  Alas, it seems that now I need to take something to get any sleep at all.  Until I get some natural sleep back (frightened it won't happen) I'll have to figure out how to space the meds out so they can keep their effectiveness while minimizing potential toxicity.  Well, it's nighttime here.  I won't take anything tonight and see what happens, as if I didn't know.  All the best to you.

[[Sh...]]

I know ur pain xx I hope u get some sleep even if it’s just a little x

[Guest [An...]]

Incidentally, after my dose of Unisome last night I slept for 10 hrs, a first for me.

 

That's an amazing result! 10hr from one Unisom. The reason why people are against Ambien is because it's essentially a benzo. It's weaker, but like a benzo's baby brother. Using Ambien will 100% hinder your healing. But if I were in your shoes I'd probably swallow one once in a while if it worked for me. Zero judgement from me. It's stupid to judge someone for doing whatever is necessary to stop the torture. Some here are not as lucky (I was lucky I could get 3hr initially on heavy Trazadone and Mirtazapine, but eventually that improved).

 

Do you have access to Cannabis? And have you tried any supplements at all? The difference between Ambien and Unisom is like a firecracker with a small tactical nuke. If Unisom helps you sleep, some supps or Cannabis might do the trick and no hinder your healing.

[[kl...]]

I tried an edible containing CBN and it revved me up terribly.  Won't go there again.

[[kl...]]

Shayna, I've been anxiety-prone all my life and consequently a rather fitful sleeper but the insomnia gradually increased to it's present intolerable level over the past year in response to the stress caused by the reflux problem.  Just my luck that the type of reflux I have (lpr) is resistent to treatment with acid reducers, leaving very problematic surgery as the only option.  I think my only recourse is to learn to accept my physical ailments as an inevitable part of life, especially at my age, and not waste what's left agonizing about them.  That's a tall order for a spaz like me.  I don't know if a therapist can help but I'm going to give it a shot.

[[He...]]

KA,

 

I am happy to read that you have had a couple good nights of 9 and 10 hours of sleep! That's fantastic. Sadly, I take sleep aids every night because i am afraid if I don't, I won't get any sleep at all. I recently had a couple 7 hour nights, WITH my stack of sleep aids, but now I am back down to 3.5. It's better than nothing.

 

Wishing you continued good luck with your sleep.

 

HM

[[kl...]]

Well, HM, I'm in the very situation you're afraid of.  I get zero sleep unless I take either Ambien or Unisom, the only 2 meds that seem to work.  I'm trying to space them out so they don't lose effectiveness or make me sicker so I go several nights with zero sleep between doses.  I have to find a way out of this.

[[Th...]]

Ambien (a z-class drug) is basically a Benzo in "disguise" and acts on GABA the same way....but you probably already know that.

 

I would avoid Ambien and any future Benzo use the same way you would avoid rat poison!

 

Good luck.

[[or...]]

The active ingredient in Unisom is an antihistamine. Another antihistamine that may sound familiar is diphenhydramine, the active ingredient in medications like Benadryl. When you take Unisom, the medication blocks the production of histamine and acetylcholine in the body.

 

KA there are other antihistamines you could try also. I sure with you'd throw your Ambien away. Why not use a few different ah's? Hydrxoyzine (an antihistamine) worked for me when Unisom pooped out. Benadryl never worked for me OTOH . . but Unisom and hydroxyzine did.

 

Best,

 

Katz

 

 

[[kl...]]

I'm painfully aware that I'm deviating from the purity of "the way" by extremely reluctantly taking Abien as infrequently as possible in an effort to survive total insomnia.  My aged body just doesn't have the physical stamina to withstand the stress of multiple sequential sleepless nights.  I'm in a constant state of extreme anxiety and crushing fatigue, a condition that is unsustainable at my age.  At the moment I don't have the luxury of experimenting with a variety of sleep aid combinations or seeing what happens if I eliminate sleep aids altogether.  I'm going to start seeing a therapist to see if that approach can get me out of this mess.

[[or...]]

It's not this at all, KA:

 

the purity of "the way"

 

It's that you're pretty regularly re-igniting your gaba receptors' dependence on Ambien. I know you know this, and it makes me sad for you that nothing else seems to have worked. My concern for you is for your physiology, not your soul. "The way" i.e. getting off Ambien completely is not ennobling . . . it's just common sense. But it's damned hard. And if you can't do it . . . well, you know as well as anyone that the piper will have to be paid.

 

Again, I'm sorry there seems to be no other "way" for you.

 

:'(

 

Katz

 

 

 

 

[[kl...]]

Yes, Katz, I'm being inexorably dragged back into benzoworld.  I am more agonized about that than you can imagine.  But if you could see me in the throes of the panic, terror, and despair I experience after sleepless nights you would understand my desperation to get relief, however transitory.  I'm going to see a therapist today to see if that might be a way out of this but I have little hope that will work. 

[[Th...]]

Not prying, but how old are you?  I'll be 58 next month.  If I were in my late 70s or 80s, I would consider staying on a Benzo or Ambien if I couldn't sleep.  At that age, I don't think it would make much difference, but you have to do what is right for you.

 

Sorry if I was being a "purest" by suggesting that Ambien is like rat poison!

[[or...]]

If I were in my late 70s or 80s, I would consider staying on a Benzo or Ambien if I couldn't sleep.  At that age, I don't think it would make much difference,

 

Wowie! Now there's an ageist statement if I ever hear one. What? If you're in your 70's or 80's what you continue to do to your body by taking benzos doesn't matter? The "old" don't matter? After all, how much life can they have left?

 

Shame on you.

 

fii I am one of those people you mentally discard (73) and my health and well-being sure as hell mattered  to me. I could see that staying on Ambien would make a difference. And I was right. Getting OFF THE DAMNED DRUG has made all the difference in the world. I am sharper, more productive in my work (yeah some of us doddering oldsters still have careers and work they love) and feel 100% better than when I was on benzos and Ambien. Yeah, it was a hell of a struggle getting off, but ultimately worth it.

 

I'm appalled.

 

 

Katz

 

 

 

[[Th...]]

Katz, go right ahead and be appalled. 

 

Everyone is uber sensitive but they do not take the time to read the CONTEXT.

 

This is what I posted:

 

"Not prying, but how old are you?  I'll be 58 next month.  If I were in my late 70s or 80s, I would consider staying on a Benzo or Ambien if I couldn't sleep.  At that age, I don't think it would make much difference, but you have to do what is right for you.

 

I SAID If I WERE in my late 70s or 80s I would consider taking BENZOs if I couldn't sleep.  I didn't say "anyone that is in their late 70s or 80s, should take whatever they want because their lives don't matter any more."  I didn't say that older people "don't matter" and that I am in favor of discarding anyone based on their age.  It's my opinion and what I would do, not what others should do.

 

Both of my parents are in their 80s and have been told by doctors that they won't do certain procedures or treatments because at their age it won't make much difference.  That doesn't mean it's an attack on "ageism" and that they're worthless.

 

If you bother to read any of my previous posts you would quickly learn I am against Benzos and Z-drugs 99.99% of the time.  But I also said the person has to do what is "right for them."  I get attacked if I tell people not to take Benzos and then in a rare minority case, I get attacked if I tell them to "consider" taking them.

 

Can we just stop with the "I'm offended" so you have to do something about your post routine?

 

 

 

 

[[kl...]]

Be cool, folks.  I didn't mean to spark a conflict.  I'm sympathetic to the views of both Katz and Way and I consider what I'm doing now to be a stopgap measure to enable me to survive until I figure something better out.  By the way, Way, I'm 86, so I find your latest comment mildly comforting. 

[[or...]]

Can we just stop with the "I'm offended" so you have to do something about your post routine?

 

?

 

So I have to do  something  about my "post routine?" Huh?

 

Look, this is what you said and you can't wriggle out of it:

 

At that age, I don't think it would make much difference

 

You didn't say anything about YOU, you made a blanket statement  i.e. "at that age" it wouldn't make much difference. At that age? Whose age? Much difference to what? All we can conclude is that it wouldn't make much difference to some old person's future.

 

If you meant this statement to be about yourself, then you should have said so. Cleary. I personally don't give a rat's ass what you might or might not do in your 70's or 80's. But don't presume to weigh in on what what would make a difference to other people in their 70's or 80's.

 

You're tripping over your own feet trying to walk this statement back.  I'm not buying it. 

 

You said it. Own it. And you betcha I'm appalled.

 

K

 

 

 

 

[[Qu...]]

Be cool, folks.  I didn't mean to spark a conflict.  I'm sympathetic to the views of both Katz and Way and I consider what I'm doing now to be a stopgap measure to enable me to survive until I figure something better out.  By the way, Way, I'm 86, so I find your latest comment mildly comforting.

 

Your insomnia is induced by reflux. It's not a "messed CNS story". And not all the people have the same reactions to benzos. Last but not least not all the people feel better switching from benzos to chronic use of antihistamine or antidepressants. Perhaps right now rotating whatever gives you a decent sleep without significant side effects (Ambien included) makes sense.

I do not endorse suffering for the sake of "perfection". Sometimes we have to be practical and choose the lesser evil.

My two cents is about trazodone: talk to your doctor about it, it has also anxiolitic properties. Obviously everyone is different. In my case it's not strong enough, but many people find it useful.

[Guest [An...]]

reflux might be greatly reduced with a good regimen of probiotics. But to get enough of them into the body is expensive though.

 

I understood what TheWay meant. I think it came out negative even if he meant well. In my 40's, I am tempted to think "if I were in my 80's, I'd take the benzo if it's the only thing that helped me sleep" because for me, 80 seems so far away. I mean at 42, I feel like I have lived a gigantic life. So to think of it doubled is so far in the future for me (at least perceived).

 

But I am able to think logically. I think of my dad who is 69, and has minor sleeping issues due to digestive issues. I've been able to help him a lot, and am so thankful he's not suffering like others his same age. Even for him, 80 is still a decade away.

 

That may be where TheWay's thought process was going to?

 

If Klonopinaddict is suffering intensely, and he has no choice but to stick with a benzo or ambien, maybe he should just postpone his suffering to the future instead of enduring it now and take some? He tried a CBN gummy and it revved him up, and it sounds like he cannot purchase supplements to try? How the heck can one help a person like this? I hope his therapist can help him.

[[Ho...]]

There is a thread/section titled Insomnia and I found a great post by someone who I cannot find now about just let it be. I mean, he basically said stop caring if you sleep and let it come back on it's own. I had a wicked hard time for two months straight. I felt like I maybe got half an hour for two months and if I dozed I jerked back awake with terror. It was hellish. I now sleep 2-5 hours and am resting in the fact that sleep will come back in it's time. Knowing that my glutamate is jacked and that is why I am awake and anxious all the time helped. Also, I tried melatonin, Benadryl, CBD and NOTHING helped. Nothing. But people do have success with things. Why not try? I get it....all day of symptoms and no sleep relief. I felt like this was a foretaste of hell. 

[[Th...]]

Can we just stop with the "I'm offended" so you have to do something about your post routine?

 

?

 

So I have to do  something  about my "post routine?" Huh?

 

Look, this is what you said and you can't wriggle out of it:

 

At that age, I don't think it would make much difference

 

You didn't say anything about YOU, you made a blanket statement  i.e. "at that age" it wouldn't make much difference. At that age? Whose age? Much difference to what? All we can conclude is that it wouldn't make much difference to some old person's future.

 

If you meant this statement to be about yourself, then you should have said so. Cleary. I personally don't give a rat's ass what you might or might not do in your 70's or 80's. But don't presume to weigh in on what what would make a difference to other people in their 70's or 80's.

 

You're tripping over your own feet trying to walk this statement back.  I'm not buying it. 

 

You said it. Own it. And you betcha I'm appalled.

 

K

 

Obviously you were absent the day they taught English at school?

 

I didn't say YOU had to do something about your posting routine, I said I didn't have to do something about my posting routine just because you, or anyone else is offended by my post.

 

The entire post, which you again conveniently took out of context, is listed below.

 

"Not prying, but how old are you?  I'll be 58 next month.  If I were in my late 70s or 80s, I would consider staying on a Benzo or Ambien if I couldn't sleep.  At that age, I don't think it would make much difference, but you have to do what is right for you.

 

You left off the first part (on purpose) that reads: "If I were in my late 70s or 80s, I would consider staying on a Benzo or Ambien if I couldn't sleep." to support your faux offense

 

What part of "If I were in my late 70s or 80s" doesn't say anything about me?  You obviously are CLUELESS when it comes to English and grammar? :idiot:

 

But you do give a "rat's ass" or you would not have replied.....

 

I am done arguing with fools!  Never argue with fools according to their folly lest you become like them. 

 

 

 

 

[[kl...]]

Way, I appreciate the latest comments that you, Quarantadu, and Andros have made putting yourselves in my aged shoes and modulating your anti-benzo stance to fit the circumstances.  To regain natural sleep I would have to stop all sleep aids and suffer as many sleepless nights as it takes to accomplish this.  The most I was able to endure at my age was 4 nights last June, at which point I went to an emergent care facility in a daze of anxiety with a systolic blood pressure of 175.  The best the doc could do was to send me home with prescriptions for 2 mg tabs of Valium and 6.25 mg tabs of Ambien and strongly suggest that I take them.  Since then I've taken 3 of the Valium and 5 of the Ambien, interspersed with doses of Unisom, Remeron (awful hangover) melatonin (ineffective) and many zero sleep nights.  So, should I keep going beyond 4 nights and not worry about the high blood pressure and whatever other damage may be occurring?  After all, I may hit paydirt after just a few more nights, right?  On the other hand I might do irrevocable harm to my health in this noble quest if it goes on indefinitely.  Should I just accede to my current sleep-aid dependent state and continue with my alternating Ambien-Unisom regimen interspersed with one or 2 sleepless nights between doses?  At the moment I'm leaning in this direction.

[[Qu...]]

You found two sleep aids that give you relief from your insomnia which is caused by reflux and perhaps an anxious behavior. It seems from what you wrote you have no hangover effect. They're both pretty safe in term of hepatotoxicity, cardiotoxicity and metabolism which is important at your age and in your overall conditions. You "just" should avoid building up tolerance and addiction. In the meanwhile treating your reflux and anxiety trying supplements as suggested by Andros could be helpful. Ending up in an emergency care isn't a better alternative.

 

Lots of people have to take drugs like beta blockers, insulin, etc. for decades until they die. Life is not always what is supposed to be. At the end of the day you have to manage your insomnia in the less harmful way getting a satisfactory result.