solution Stability (xanax)

[[Al...]]

Many folks find discontinuing benzos difficult.  That's because they have changed the way the biosystem responds to GABA.  If the benzo is discontinued to quickly, there can be significant withdrawal effects. 

 

The classic protocol has long been the cut&suffer method.  I know that term pisses Colin off, but most folks who have tried it will confirm that it's an appropriated description.  Basically, this method is to make a significant single cut, perhaps 5%, then hold at that dose for some period, perhaps 10 days, while (hopefully) the symptoms subside.  There are several limitations to this method.  1)  The initial shock of the cut, and the discomfort, will be the same no matter how long you hold. 2) Its challenging (sometimes impossible) to divide your tablets into small enough doses to make smal cuts.  This is especially true for high dose potency benzos like clonazepam.

 

So if cut&suffer doesn't seem to be working, we need to consider how to make smaller cuts, and maybe, smaller cuts, more often.  There are ways to do that.

Realistically, about the smallest you really divide a tablet with any kind of consistence is into 4 pieces.  But if you use a "precision" scale, you can measure out much smaller decrements.  This method will work.  There are a few drawbacks, though.  Obviously, its fiddly and labor-intensive.  Your trying to measure out tablet or powder weight to .001 g.  And those $20 precision scales that folks get from Amazon, really are NOT "precision".  And then there's the problem that the active ingredient is NOT uniformly distributed in a tablet, so you actually dose consistency is uncertain.  But, again, for most folks, this will work.

 

In the US there are 3 Rx liquid benzos, diazepam (2 formulations) lorazepam, and alprozalam.  There is no Rx clonazepam in the US, but there is many other countries.  All of them use either alcohol or propylene glycol as a base solvent.These can (and should be)  diluted to dilute concentrations like .1mg=1ml, which allows you to easily measure doses/decremetns to .01 (hundredth) of a milligram.  Rx liquid is the gold standard for a liquid taper.  It's manufactured under tight quality control, and its uniformity is completely reliable.

 

But...many docs are not even aware that Rx liquids are available, and/or are reluctant to Rx them .  So  in reality, Rx liquid is probably not an option for most folks.  But there is a simple alternative.  You can convert your tablets into a stable, uniformly distributed liquid by using either one of the same solvents that the pharma mfgr use, and dilute that with water, just like the pharma mfgrs do.

 

So here's the summary.  You can 1)  try the cut&suffer method, 2) get a scale and cut/scrape/grind, etc. your tablets, 3) ask your  doc for a scrip for liquid (unless you're on clonazepam), or  4 make your own.  You just combine 3 ingredients (benzo, solvent, and water),  kinda like stirring cream and sugar into your coffee.

 

Now, it's pretty obvious there is a concerted effort here on BB to create an aura of fear around the efficacy or safety of home made liquid (although there has been zero evidence presented to support that)  When I started my DLMT, I had reached a point where continuing the C&H was not even an option.  And I tried "water taper", whcich was a disaster.  I was miserable and wanted off of this debilitating drug (Colin has chastized me for callin it toxic).  So if options 1-3 aren't working for you, what's the risk of trying #4?

 

I totally agree. I had tried all of the methods mentioned, including a hellish C/T before we had all of this information. Cut and hold which at higher doses may not be too bad, but as one gets lower, it is rough and that is where many folks either stop, give up, up dose etc. I saw it many times with people on the very old forum. I did do the water taper which was all we knew at the time. Also rough. When I discovered the DLMT on here, it was like a new hope for me. I use the PG instead of alcohol, only because my gut is sensitive. I also used the pills in combo with the liquid. It works for me. Why diss it? I want quality of life and I refuse to suffer needlessly, so I have chosen the method that will help me get down safely and with minimal symptoms. Not everyone may like it, but why all of a sudden is there this uproar about it being so unsafe? There are many options, as Builder mentioned. Do the one that is right for you. I do know that it is about gradual tapering and not so much the precision. From my own experience. I was never put down or intimidated by Builder. I screwed up last May with my math and accidentally came down by .5mg of k in 5 days. I let him know and he gave me his advise and got my math straightened out. Never, did he make me feel like an idiot. Never! All I have seen is him trying to help people that ask him for it. If they don't like the method, then, again, try another option. Benzo withdrawal is not for everyone. It takes a lot of patience, determination, and in my case Faith. It is the hardest thing, I believe that any of us have had to endure.

I can only hope that things will settle down and there can be some Peace on here.

 

 

Well said, Dana, well said.

:clap:

[[Co...]]

I totally agree. I had tried all of the methods mentioned, including a hellish C/T before we had all of this information. Cut and hold which at higher doses may not be too bad, but as one gets lower, it is rough and that is where many folks either stop, give up, up dose etc. I saw it many times with people on the very old forum. I did do the water taper which was all we knew at the time. Also rough. When I discovered the DLMT on here, it was like a new hope for me. I use the PG instead of alcohol, only because my gut is sensitive. I also used the pills in combo with the liquid. It works for me. Why diss it? I want quality of life and I refuse to suffer needlessly, so I have chosen the method that will help me get down safely and with minimal symptoms. Not everyone may like it, but why all of a sudden is there this uproar about it being so unsafe? There are many options, as Builder mentioned. Do the one that is right for you. I do know that it is about gradual tapering and not so much the precision. From my own experience. I was never put down or intimidated by Builder. I screwed up last May with my math and accidentally came down by .5mg of k in 5 days. I let him know and he gave me his advise and got my math straightened out. Never, did he make me feel like an idiot. Never! All I have seen is him trying to help people that ask him for it. If they don't like the method, then, again, try another option. Benzo withdrawal is not for everyone. It takes a lot of patience, determination, and in my case Faith. It is the hardest thing, I believe that any of us have had to endure.

I can only hope that things will settle down and there can be some Peace on here.

 

A few of you totally misunderstand the problem here. It is about the promotion of methods and techniques as practically guaranteed to work, or when it does not work, the person employing it must have messed up. DIYing liquids from pills is not fully analogous with taking the pills. There are potential problems with storage/degradation of home-made liquids, etc., etc. It is the failure by a few members to acknowledge the limits of what is known and what is achievable at home using ad hoc ingredients.

 

As for 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed by a self-styled, 'scientific technical writer', I point you to the following thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=231882.0

 

I suggest you and anyone else interested in DLMT first read that thread.

 

Proclaiming that a - frankly, common sense - slow titrated dose worked for you totally misses the point here. You are not barred from discussing what you did and how you fared. It is the promotion of magical solutions (no pun intended) and failure to own the failures of those following the protocols which are the problems here.

[[pi...]]

OK, my head hurts, so I'm going stop banging on the wall.  Y'all can just live with your conjecture and what-ifs.  Me, I'm fine with the concepts that are so simple they can obviously be understood by  junior high kids.

 

Y'all probably don't believe in climate change either!

 

Yet another attempt to minimize what you can not seem to accept, that no plan is perfect and no plan can guarantee results.  I choose to take the information provided to me by a family member who majored in organic chemistry, chemistry and microbiology over someone whose main reference is a high school chemistry book.  You won't get a rise out of me with your colloquial 'y'all'. You certainly don't have any right to question my or anyone else's stance on climate change or any other subject totally unrelated to benzo withdrawal.

 

 

[[co...]]

 

What about those who do suffer severe withdrawal symptoms even whilst following the tiny dose reduction plan, following it exactly as suggested to them?  We know of members who are afraid to post their 'failures' on the forum because of the fear of being singled out by highly vocal and aggressive members. We empathize with them, we know that not every plan will work for every person.

 

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that DLMT is going to be problem and suffering free, only that it can offer less suffering than cut and hold.  This has been my experience.  You can find posts by me where I specifically write that I am having issues for one reason or another (in one case unkowingly proceeded too fast to the point where I tapered something like 15% or more in 10 days).

 

After my crossover from Klonopin to Valium I did fine dry tapering from 20 mg of Valium down to about 7.5mg.  But then it became increasingly difficult with me having to often wait a month or more between .5 mg cuts.  I was slicing 2 mg valium pills into quarters--which was the smallest that I could accurately cut them.  As I got lower the .5mg cut represented a larger percentage of my total dose. Going over to liquid Valium and diluting it with water proved to be a lifesaver for me. It has allowed me to make tiny daily cuts that are smaller and more accurate than I could ever make using dry cutting.  And it greatly reduced the SXS that I was experiencing towards the end with my dry cuts.  Dry cuts would have gotten worse.  I don't know that I can managed it.  It would have definitely made my quality of life much worse.

 

[[co...]]

 

A few of you totally misunderstand the problem here. It is about the promotion of methods and techniques as practically guaranteed to work, or when it does not work, the person employing it must have messed up. DIYing liquids from pills is not fully analogous with taking the pills. There are potential problems with storage/degradation of home-made liquids, etc., etc. It is the failure by a few members to acknowledge the limits of what is known and what is achievable at home using ad hoc ingredients.

 

I don't think anyone here is guaranteeing it to work or to be problem free.  This is a very individual thing with a very problematic life situation and it has to be done correctly.  I remember a thread from someone complaining about the horrible taste of liquid Valium from the bottle.  They seemed to have miss the numerous posts that suggest diluting liquid valium at 9 parts water for each part of liquid valium.  This is done to increase palatability and because diluting the liquid valium gives you a solution with a lower concentration of valium. This allows you taper daily by a smaller amount.

 

As for 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed by a self-styled, 'scientific technical writer', I point you to the following thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=231882.0

 

I suggest you and anyone else interested in DLMT first read that thread.

 

Proclaiming that a - frankly, common sense - slow titrated dose worked for you totally misses the point here. You are not barred from discussing what you did and how you fared. It is the promotion of magical solutions (no pun intended) and failure to own the failures of those following the protocols which are the problems here.

 

I think it best that we exercise the ghost of Jana Hill from this board, or at least from this thread.  No one here is advocating her specific tapering methodology, or making the claims that some people attribute to her.  She and her board are from way before my time.

[[co...]]

Question: isn't telling someone that: "You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless" against the rules of the forum?

 

"Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purposes of causing arguments and/or ill-feeling will be banned."

 

Yet these remarks were present in the following post:

 

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time.

 

What is your beef? Nobody is disputing this. What is of concern here is providing a platform to guide/inform inquisitive folks who are trying to make an informed decision regarding a safe, reliable method that is right for THEM, as an individual. Ideally this decision should be based on fact not hypothesis and speculation or trial and error. Just because a method worked for you does not mean it will work for everyone. It is neither proven or disproven. Scientific data/studies simply does not exist. Please STOP disregarding those who experience is different than yours. They deserve more respect than this.

 

SO many people have been helped by this process, and yet the naysayers, and their minions, keep trying to steer people away from it and the people who have benefitted the most from it.  It really seems like it is their undying mission in life to quash the voices of those who have been, and are continuing to be, helped by these methods of eliminating benzos from their lives.

 

 

No one is disputing how many have been helped. Who exactly are you refering to as a "naysayer/minions" pal You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless ...when you make blanket statements such as this it only shows these negative traits.

[[Lo...]]

OK, my head hurts, so I'm going stop banging on the wall.  Y'all can just live with your conjecture and what-ifs.  Me, I'm fine with the concepts that are so simple they can obviously be understood by  junior high kids.

 

Y'all probably don't believe in climate change either!

 

Low and behold, my pharmacy now does a liquid suspension of Xanax. I should have it by Tuesday. I managed "okay" with c/h but side effects got horrendous under 1 mg. Am back up to .75, feeling better and am not making anymore reductions until I try the liquid, stabilize, and go with .001 reductions. Will keep you posted!

 

 

Fondly,

Lori

[[Lo...]]

Dear Lord I did not read through this thread prior to posting. What have I gotten myself into?

 

Ugh!

 

 

[[Gu...]]

Question: isn't telling someone that: "You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless" against the rules of the forum?

 

"Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purposes of causing arguments and/or ill-feeling will be banned."

 

Yet these remarks were present in the following post:

 

 

It is against the rules to be rude and disrespectful attacking fellow buddies. No disrespect was intended, just stating the facts as I see them. Some of Al sharps post(s) clearly display these traits

 

Definition of narrowminded

not willing to accept ideas or ways of behaving that are different from your own

 

Definition of ignorant

not having enough knowledge, understanding, or information about something

 

Definition of clueless

having no knowledge of something, or of things in general

 

 

 

[[Co...]]

 

A few of you totally misunderstand the problem here. It is about the promotion of methods and techniques as practically guaranteed to work, or when it does not work, the person employing it must have messed up. DIYing liquids from pills is not fully analogous with taking the pills. There are potential problems with storage/degradation of home-made liquids, etc., etc. It is the failure by a few members to acknowledge the limits of what is known and what is achievable at home using ad hoc ingredients.

 

I don't think anyone here is guaranteeing it to work or to be problem free.  This is a very individual thing with a very problematic life situation and it has to be done correctly.  I remember a thread from someone complaining about the horrible taste of liquid Valium from the bottle.  They seemed to have miss the numerous posts that suggest diluting liquid valium at 9 parts water for each part of liquid valium.  This is done to increase palatability and because diluting the liquid valium gives you a solution with a lower concentration of valium. This allows you taper daily by a smaller amount.

 

Oh yes they are.

 

is it guaranteed to dissolve all my Lorazepam pill?? 

 

No, it's guaranteed to dissolve all of the lorazepam!  And that's all that matters.  What happens to the inactive components (that are probably 99% or the "pill"), doesn't matter!  It will dissolve all to the lorazepam, and it will be uniformly distributed throughout the liquid.

 

Intensol?  IIRC, you tried to use the Intensol undiluted?  If that's correct, I can understand why the protocol failed.  And if that is NOT correct, I would certainly try to use the Rx lorazepam again.

 

Mandatory disclosure:  JMHO

 

Why do I then feel so awful after even the smallest cut?

 

I don't know, but I absolutely guarantee you that is it is NOT because of liquid, and it is NOT due to the "smallest cut" !

 

You could have skipped the whole day's dose, but you wouldn't feel it yet.  (I sometimes forget to take my whole dose, but as long as I remembered by the next day, it never made any difference.)

 

 

 

i forwarded your plan/calculations for my DLMT to a chemist buddy of mine to check it out. we're on another forum and they have their pet tapering methods also, and i wanted to get his thoughts on the DLMT vs the Brass Monkey Slide Micro Taper (2.5% per week for 4 weeks with a 2 week HOLD)

 

Just FYI, you're really making this all a lot more complicated than it really is.  The whole thing is incredibly simple and uncomplicated.

 

1) You combine 3 ingredients to make a solution.

 

2) You take a little less each day.

 

That's really all there is to it.

 

well Just FYI, you really made me feel insignificant and stupid with this comment. this a lot more complicated to me with my cognitive disabilities than it is perhaps to you.  The whole thing is incredibly simple and uncomplicated TO YOU perhaps, but to me (and i am willing to bet to a lot of others especially newbies to this whole tapering thing), it is incredibly complex and difficult to absorb in one take,  apologies shouldn't be neccesary since i did nothing wrong.  That's really all there is to it. Cheers

 

[...]

 

I'll guarantee you, "DLMT anxiety" has caused far more folks to fail a taper, then the taper procedure caused.

 

:thumbsup:

 

How long does the 5mg/5ml liquid valium stay stable once it is mixed with water?

 

Well, its actually a "dilute solution" when it comes from the mfgr.  It has a 3 year shelf life from the mfgr.  And diluting it further has absolutely no effect on stability, efficacy, potency, etc.  It just change the concentration ratio.

 

But I always suggest a 10-14 day batch (for other reasons)  I absolutely guarantee there will be no degradation over a 14 day period.

 

Thanks but still a bit confused. I'm at .125 mg a day but your starting dose is .25 so do I just half everything and make my solution from 125 ml of water and then take 12.5 ml of the solution the first day and reduce by 12.5 ml each day?

 

Is the solution really "good" for that long? My pharmacist didn't think a solution made from a pill would be good for longer then 1 day.

 

What's the difference between what you suggest and just making a solution each day and discarding some like I've seen in liquid taper videos?

 

Many thanks!

 

10%/10 days starting at .125:

 

.125mg          12.5ml

.12375mg      12.375ml  (round up to 12.38)

.1225mg        12.25ml

.12125mg      12.125ml  (round up to 12.13)

etc....

 

A solution made from a pill contains 3 ingredients, benzo, alcohol (or PG) and water.  They are all 1) non-perishable, and 2) have "shelf llives "ranging from  years (the benzo) to infinity  (water).  I always recommend making a 10-14 day batch.  I guarantee you it will not degrade of lose potency.  All the pharma grade benzo liquids contain the same 3 ingredients, benzo, solvent (alcohol or PG) and water.

 

The procedure you see on YouTube is silly, labor intensive, and wasteful.  The amounts in my chart are the amounts you need to take each day.  Why not just take that amount from your supply, just like you would any other liquid med?

 

Imagine that your doc gave you a scrip for a liquid med, and the dosing instructions were: "Take 10 tsps the first day, then take 1 tsp less each day after that."  Would you throw some away each day?  I think you would measure out and take 10 tsps on day 1, measure out and take 9 tsps on day 2, measure out and take 8 tsps on day 3, measure out and take 7 tsps on day 4, etc.  That's all a daily taper is...you just lower your dose a little each day.

 

Thanks for your reply but the solvent does absolutely nothing to the tablet...even muddled it does nothing..

 

I know you say 2ml of vodka to one mg benzo ...but it seems water only deconstructs it.

 

Yes the water "...only deconstructs the the tablet."  But it does NOT dissolve the benzo

 

Once you manually deconstruct the tablet (crush, muddle, etc), the benzo will be exposed to the solvent, and it will go into solution ("dissolve").

 

Again,  99% of the tablet is NOT benzo.  It doesn't matter what happens to that 99%.  All that matters is that the tiny amount of benzo dissolve.  And I guarantee, it will!

 

The benzo is NOT water-soluble.  The benzo IS soluble in alcohol and PG.

 

I include the following, because it is clearly contradicted by the above quotes:

 

Quote

    This is a simple concept that allows folks to make dose reductions in smaller decrements.  And as I have asked you several times, if it doesn't work, so what? A few days of increased sxs, and a return to the previous dose??

 

The problem is that you have repeatedly stated that the protocols you employ are 'guaranteed' to work. If you make those kinds of statements, the implication is that in the face of worsening symptoms, the individual following your protocols must be doing something wrong. Do I sense a crack in the door - do you now accept that your system might not be 100% reliable? That it might even result in some people experiencing greater symptoms?

 

I have never said "guaranteed to work":  Simple logic says the the more gradual one's reduction, the more tolerable the process will be.  Is there another way to make smaller decrements than  using a diluted liquid?

 

And if someone tries  (any) DLMT procedure, and "fails", what's the real risK...a few days if increased sxs???

 

And, I include the following post because a properly formulated suspension does actually assure the patient of a consistent medication. And although mathematically true that a solution will be more uniform than a suspension, in practice it makes no detectable difference with a properly formulated benzodiazepine medication. The problem, though, is there is no way to guarantee that (all or part) the benzodiazepine powder made from grinding up pills at home makes it into solution*. For this reason, using a reliable commercial suspension medium is almost certainly the better, more assured way to proceed. Attempting to make a solution at home might be good enough. But, in reality, you might have only created a moderately good suspension (there is no way for you to know). So, for this reason, we recommend a shake of the home-made liquid immediately before measuring out a dose (as this will generally help create a more uniform suspension).

 

I’m probably using the wrong terminology. So would this solution work for my temazapam??

 

OraPlus is NOT a solution, its a suspension agent.  You crush your tablet and mix it in the liquid.  Its a viscous ("thick") liquid that tends to hold the particle in place.

 

A suspension cannot guarantee you a uniform distribution like a solution. but many folks find its "good enough"

 

* A couple of potential problems immediately spring to my untrained mind regarding the assumption that the benzodiazepine powder inevitably goes into solution. Perhaps one of our resident chemists will chime in here. 1) We do not know what other chemicals from the vodka are already held in suspension (this surely will affect the ability of the alcohol to accept another solute) - it is even possible that the alcohol (within the vodka) is already effectively saturated. 2) How do we know that the other ingredients from the ground up pills (the fillers) will not compete to go into solution in the limited amount of alcohol?

 

Now. As for:

 

As for 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed by a self-styled, 'scientific technical writer', I point you to the following thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=231882.0

 

I suggest you and anyone else interested in DLMT first read that thread.

 

Proclaiming that a - frankly, common sense - slow titrated dose worked for you totally misses the point here. You are not barred from discussing what you did and how you fared. It is the promotion of magical solutions (no pun intended) and failure to own the failures of those following the protocols which are the problems here.

 

I think it best that we exercise the ghost of Jana Hill from this board, or at least from this thread.  No one here is advocating her specific tapering methodology, or making the claims that some people attribute to her.  She and her board are from way before my time.

 

Ahum:

 

[...]

 

When I discovered the DLMT on here, it was like a new hope for me.

 

[...]

 

A few of you totally misunderstand the problem here. It is about the promotion of methods and techniques as practically guaranteed to work, or when it does not work, the person employing it must have messed up. DIYing liquids from pills is not fully analogous with taking the pills. There are potential problems with storage/degradation of home-made liquids, etc., etc. It is the failure by a few members to acknowledge the limits of what is known and what is achievable at home using ad hoc ingredients.

 

As for 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed by a self-styled, 'scientific technical writer', I point you to the following thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=231882.0

 

I suggest you and anyone else interested in DLMT first read that thread.

 

Proclaiming that a - frankly, common sense - slow titrated dose worked for you totally misses the point here. You are not barred from discussing what you did and how you fared. It is the promotion of magical solutions (no pun intended) and failure to own the failures of those following the protocols which are the problems here.

 

It was Dana who raised the issue of Jana Hill by invoking 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed and promoted by Hill. Only a few weeks ago others and I debunked Hill's patented 'protocols' - a link and warning seemed rather appropriate.

[[Co...]]

Question: isn't telling someone that: "You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless" against the rules of the forum?

 

"Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purposes of causing arguments and/or ill-feeling will be banned."

 

Yet these remarks were present in the following post:

 

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time.

 

What is your beef? Nobody is disputing this. What is of concern here is providing a platform to guide/inform inquisitive folks who are trying to make an informed decision regarding a safe, reliable method that is right for THEM, as an individual. Ideally this decision should be based on fact not hypothesis and speculation or trial and error. Just because a method worked for you does not mean it will work for everyone. It is neither proven or disproven. Scientific data/studies simply does not exist. Please STOP disregarding those who experience is different than yours. They deserve more respect than this.

 

SO many people have been helped by this process, and yet the naysayers, and their minions, keep trying to steer people away from it and the people who have benefitted the most from it.  It really seems like it is their undying mission in life to quash the voices of those who have been, and are continuing to be, helped by these methods of eliminating benzos from their lives.

 

 

No one is disputing how many have been helped. Who exactly are you refering to as a "naysayer/minions" pal You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless ...when you make blanket statements such as this it only shows these negative traits.

 

Who would you say is more at fault in the above exchange? The member who provoked the exchange, or the respondent? Please note, we took no action against either of them. After all, we are all grown ups here and we generally tolerate a few terse words from members (so long as they do not go too far and are not habitual).

[[Co...]]

OK, my head hurts, so I'm going stop banging on the wall.  Y'all can just live with your conjecture and what-ifs.  Me, I'm fine with the concepts that are so simple they can obviously be understood by  junior high kids.

 

Y'all probably don't believe in climate change either!

 

Low and behold, my pharmacy now does a liquid suspension of Xanax. I should have it by Tuesday. I managed "okay" with c/h but side effects got horrendous under 1 mg. Am back up to .75, feeling better and am not making anymore reductions until I try the liquid, stabilize, and go with .001 reductions. Will keep you posted!

 

 

Fondly,

Lori

 

Great! let us know how you get on with your new medicine.

[[Co...]]

Dear Lord I did not read through this thread prior to posting. What have I gotten myself into?

 

Ugh!

 

No worries. It is all good.

[[...]]

 

A few of you totally misunderstand the problem here. It is about the promotion of methods and techniques as practically guaranteed to work, or when it does not work, the person employing it must have messed up. DIYing liquids from pills is not fully analogous with taking the pills. There are potential problems with storage/degradation of home-made liquids, etc., etc. It is the failure by a few members to acknowledge the limits of what is known and what is achievable at home using ad hoc ingredients.

 

I don't think anyone here is guaranteeing it to work or to be problem free.  This is a very individual thing with a very problematic life situation and it has to be done correctly.  I remember a thread from someone complaining about the horrible taste of liquid Valium from the bottle.  They seemed to have miss the numerous posts that suggest diluting liquid valium at 9 parts water for each part of liquid valium.  This is done to increase palatability and because diluting the liquid valium gives you a solution with a lower concentration of valium. This allows you taper daily by a smaller amount.

 

Oh yes they are.

 

is it guaranteed to dissolve all my Lorazepam pill?? 

 

No, it's guaranteed to dissolve all of the lorazepam!  And that's all that matters.  What happens to the inactive components (that are probably 99% or the "pill"), doesn't matter!  It will dissolve all to the lorazepam, and it will be uniformly distributed throughout the liquid.

 

Intensol?  IIRC, you tried to use the Intensol undiluted?  If that's correct, I can understand why the protocol failed.  And if that is NOT correct, I would certainly try to use the Rx lorazepam again.

 

Mandatory disclosure:  JMHO

 

Why do I then feel so awful after even the smallest cut?

 

I don't know, but I absolutely guarantee you that is it is NOT because of liquid, and it is NOT due to the "smallest cut" !

 

You could have skipped the whole day's dose, but you wouldn't feel it yet.  (I sometimes forget to take my whole dose, but as long as I remembered by the next day, it never made any difference.)

 

 

 

i forwarded your plan/calculations for my DLMT to a chemist buddy of mine to check it out. we're on another forum and they have their pet tapering methods also, and i wanted to get his thoughts on the DLMT vs the Brass Monkey Slide Micro Taper (2.5% per week for 4 weeks with a 2 week HOLD)

 

Just FYI, you're really making this all a lot more complicated than it really is.  The whole thing is incredibly simple and uncomplicated.

 

1) You combine 3 ingredients to make a solution.

 

2) You take a little less each day.

 

That's really all there is to it.

 

well Just FYI, you really made me feel insignificant and stupid with this comment. this a lot more complicated to me with my cognitive disabilities than it is perhaps to you.  The whole thing is incredibly simple and uncomplicated TO YOU perhaps, but to me (and i am willing to bet to a lot of others especially newbies to this whole tapering thing), it is incredibly complex and difficult to absorb in one take,  apologies shouldn't be neccesary since i did nothing wrong.  That's really all there is to it. Cheers

 

[...]

 

I'll guarantee you, "DLMT anxiety" has caused far more folks to fail a taper, then the taper procedure caused.

 

:thumbsup:

 

How long does the 5mg/5ml liquid valium stay stable once it is mixed with water?

 

Well, its actually a "dilute solution" when it comes from the mfgr.  It has a 3 year shelf life from the mfgr.  And diluting it further has absolutely no effect on stability, efficacy, potency, etc.  It just change the concentration ratio.

 

But I always suggest a 10-14 day batch (for other reasons)  I absolutely guarantee there will be no degradation over a 14 day period.

 

Thanks but still a bit confused. I'm at .125 mg a day but your starting dose is .25 so do I just half everything and make my solution from 125 ml of water and then take 12.5 ml of the solution the first day and reduce by 12.5 ml each day?

 

Is the solution really "good" for that long? My pharmacist didn't think a solution made from a pill would be good for longer then 1 day.

 

What's the difference between what you suggest and just making a solution each day and discarding some like I've seen in liquid taper videos?

 

Many thanks!

 

10%/10 days starting at .125:

 

.125mg          12.5ml

.12375mg      12.375ml  (round up to 12.38)

.1225mg        12.25ml

.12125mg      12.125ml  (round up to 12.13)

etc....

 

A solution made from a pill contains 3 ingredients, benzo, alcohol (or PG) and water.  They are all 1) non-perishable, and 2) have "shelf llives "ranging from  years (the benzo) to infinity  (water).  I always recommend making a 10-14 day batch.  I guarantee you it will not degrade of lose potency.  All the pharma grade benzo liquids contain the same 3 ingredients, benzo, solvent (alcohol or PG) and water.

 

The procedure you see on YouTube is silly, labor intensive, and wasteful.  The amounts in my chart are the amounts you need to take each day.  Why not just take that amount from your supply, just like you would any other liquid med?

 

Imagine that your doc gave you a scrip for a liquid med, and the dosing instructions were: "Take 10 tsps the first day, then take 1 tsp less each day after that."  Would you throw some away each day?  I think you would measure out and take 10 tsps on day 1, measure out and take 9 tsps on day 2, measure out and take 8 tsps on day 3, measure out and take 7 tsps on day 4, etc.  That's all a daily taper is...you just lower your dose a little each day.

 

Thanks for your reply but the solvent does absolutely nothing to the tablet...even muddled it does nothing..

 

I know you say 2ml of vodka to one mg benzo ...but it seems water only deconstructs it.

 

Yes the water "...only deconstructs the the tablet."  But it does NOT dissolve the benzo

 

Once you manually deconstruct the tablet (crush, muddle, etc), the benzo will be exposed to the solvent, and it will go into solution ("dissolve").

 

Again,  99% of the tablet is NOT benzo.  It doesn't matter what happens to that 99%.  All that matters is that the tiny amount of benzo dissolve.  And I guarantee, it will!

 

The benzo is NOT water-soluble.  The benzo IS soluble in alcohol and PG.

 

I include the following, because it is clearly contradicted by the above quotes:

 

Quote

    This is a simple concept that allows folks to make dose reductions in smaller decrements.  And as I have asked you several times, if it doesn't work, so what? A few days of increased sxs, and a return to the previous dose??

 

The problem is that you have repeatedly stated that the protocols you employ are 'guaranteed' to work. If you make those kinds of statements, the implication is that in the face of worsening symptoms, the individual following your protocols must be doing something wrong. Do I sense a crack in the door - do you now accept that your system might not be 100% reliable? That it might even result in some people experiencing greater symptoms?

 

I have never said "guaranteed to work":  Simple logic says the the more gradual one's reduction, the more tolerable the process will be.  Is there another way to make smaller decrements than  using a diluted liquid?

 

And if someone tries  (any) DLMT procedure, and "fails", what's the real risK...a few days if increased sxs???

 

And, I include the following post because a properly formulated suspension does actually assure the patient of a consistent medication. And although mathematically true that a solution will be more uniform than a suspension, in practice it makes no detectable difference with a properly formulated benzodiazepine medication. The problem, though, is there is no way to guarantee that (all or part) the benzodiazepine powder made from grinding up pills at home makes it into solution*. For this reason, using a reliable commercial suspension medium is almost certainly the better, more assured way to proceed. Attempting to make a solution at home might be good enough. But, in reality, you might have only created a moderately good suspension (there is no way for you to know). So, for this reason, we recommend a shake of the home-made liquid immediately before measuring out a dose (as this will generally help create a more uniform suspension).

 

I’m probably using the wrong terminology. So would this solution work for my temazapam??

 

OraPlus is NOT a solution, its a suspension agent.  You crush your tablet and mix it in the liquid.  Its a viscous ("thick") liquid that tends to hold the particle in place.

 

A suspension cannot guarantee you a uniform distribution like a solution. but many folks find its "good enough"

 

* A couple of potential problems immediately spring to my untrained mind regarding the assumption that the benzodiazepine powder inevitably goes into solution. Perhaps one of our resident chemists will chime in here. 1) We do not know what other chemicals from the vodka are already held in suspension (this surely will affect the ability of the alcohol to accept another solute) - it is even possible that the alcohol (within the vodka) is already effectively saturated. 2) How do we know that the other ingredients from the ground up pills (the fillers) will not compete to go into solution in the limited amount of alcohol?

 

Now. As for:

 

As for 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed by a self-styled, 'scientific technical writer', I point you to the following thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=231882.0

 

I suggest you and anyone else interested in DLMT first read that thread.

 

Proclaiming that a - frankly, common sense - slow titrated dose worked for you totally misses the point here. You are not barred from discussing what you did and how you fared. It is the promotion of magical solutions (no pun intended) and failure to own the failures of those following the protocols which are the problems here.

 

I think it best that we exercise the ghost of Jana Hill from this board, or at least from this thread.  No one here is advocating her specific tapering methodology, or making the claims that some people attribute to her.  She and her board are from way before my time.

 

Ahum:

 

[...]

 

When I discovered the DLMT on here, it was like a new hope for me.

 

[...]

 

A few of you totally misunderstand the problem here. It is about the promotion of methods and techniques as practically guaranteed to work, or when it does not work, the person employing it must have messed up. DIYing liquids from pills is not fully analogous with taking the pills. There are potential problems with storage/degradation of home-made liquids, etc., etc. It is the failure by a few members to acknowledge the limits of what is known and what is achievable at home using ad hoc ingredients.

 

As for 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed by a self-styled, 'scientific technical writer', I point you to the following thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=231882.0

 

I suggest you and anyone else interested in DLMT first read that thread.

 

Proclaiming that a - frankly, common sense - slow titrated dose worked for you totally misses the point here. You are not barred from discussing what you did and how you fared. It is the promotion of magical solutions (no pun intended) and failure to own the failures of those following the protocols which are the problems here.

 

It was Dana who raised the issue of Jana Hill by invoking 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed and promoted by Hill. Only a few weeks ago others and I debunked Hill's patented 'protocols' - a link and warning seemed rather appropriate.

[[...]]

I do not who Jana Hill is or do I care. I did read the link about her that you provided. I was not around when she was here. I am not interested in who is who. I am interested in finding the best way for me to get off. That is it. I hate drama. Always have.

As I stated last night, I found the DLMT to be the best bet for me, after trying everything, including, again, a C/T that almost killed from a medical detox. Back in the old days that is all I could find. I thought they could get me off of the K. They tell you a great line of BS. I had no clue the HELL I was to endure. Thankfully I was reinstated 4 months later by a benzo wise Dr. that stated it takes months to years to get off of these drugs. I joined a fairly new forum and it was so rigid. It was their way or the highway. I started tapering immediately which was the most idiotic thing I could have done, but they pushed it. Cut and hold, and the water taper. I finally stopped after a year and a month or so. I started feeling great. What I am saying is that I have done it all. When I decided to start tapering again I found this method back in 2017. Again, it gave me hope that I could get off safely and with minimal symptoms. I had every symptom that Dr. Ashton mentioned, except agoraphobia. I am not going there again. I am not a martyr.

I decided to call my compounding pharmacy this morning and I spoke with a great gal. I have been using this pharmacy since the 1990's for HRT. They compound everything. The pharmacist told me that they compound benzo's for withdrawing.  They use PG for the solvent. They use water for volume. They can do any reduction that one needs. I told her the ratio and she stated that sounded fine. The water is for volume so it be diluted to any dose. They only thing they do differently is refrigerate it.  It is only good for 14 days. She stated it is a law or regulation. That is to prevent the solution from becoming contaminated due to the water. Also she stated that do use an amber colored bottle. So basically it is about the same as what is done here. She told me that it is wonderful that I have the knowledge to do it myself to minimize the cost. If I wanted them to do it, I could provide my own Teva. I am glad that I called and got confirmation that what I have been doing is what they do!

Again, I am not promoting any one method. I am sharing my experience of what works for me. Like I stated last night, do whatever method you need or want to do to get off. It is just so frustrating to see this method being touted as the wrong thing to do. What method is right? It all depends on the individual person. It does not have to be so complicated. Peace.

[[...]]

I don't care who so called patented this and I had no idea anyone did until I read that link.

Who ever said it is guaranteed to work for everyone?  The compounding pharmacy that I use do a lot of liquid benzo preparations for people trying to taper. That tells me that their Dr's and patients must know that it does work. I imagine they have tried other methods without much success. In my experience, it has been the gentlest method to taper down. Also, she stated these people are older folks. I know at my age, I need the gentlest way or I won't get off. The C/T caused my CNS to be so sensitive. I know my body and I know that I have to be careful. I also have a life to live of which I am doing. It is about my quality of life.

The beauty of this taper for me is that I can choose whatever dose I want to titrate down. If it is too much, then I hold and slow it down. I am not wasting any benzo which used to aggravate me with pull off and drink. Very cost effective. Also, I am not doing all liquid. That makes a difference for me. I do a small amount of my dose in liquid and the majority taken in pill.

Just letting you know that is how I have been doing it.

I say " Do What You Like". Listening to Blind Faith right now. 

[[Co...]]

I do not who Jana Hill is or do I care. I did read the link about her that you provided. I was not around when she was here. I am not interested in who is who. I am interested in finding the best way for me to get off. That is it. I hate drama. Always have.

As I stated last night, I found the DLMT to be the best bet for me, after trying everything, including, again, a C/T that almost killed from a medical detox. Back in the old days that is all I could find. I thought they could get me off of the K. They tell you a great line of BS. I had no clue the HELL I was to endure. Thankfully I was reinstated 4 months later by a benzo wise Dr. that stated it takes months to years to get off of these drugs. I joined a fairly new forum and it was so rigid. It was their way or the highway. I started tapering immediately which was the most idiotic thing I could have done, but they pushed it. Cut and hold, and the water taper. I finally stopped after a year and a month or so. I started feeling great. What I am saying is that I have done it all. When I decided to start tapering again I found this method back in 2017. Again, it gave me hope that I could get off safely and with minimal symptoms. I had every symptom that Dr. Ashton mentioned, except agoraphobia. I am not going there again. I am not a martyr.

I decided to call my compounding pharmacy this morning and I spoke with a great gal. I have been using this pharmacy since the 1990's for HRT. They compound everything. The pharmacist told me that they compound benzo's for withdrawing.  They use PG for the solvent. They use water for volume. They can do any reduction that one needs. I told her the ratio and she stated that sounded fine. The water is for volume so it be diluted to any dose. They only thing they do differently is refrigerate it.  It is only good for 14 days. She stated it is a law or regulation. That is to prevent the solution from becoming contaminated due to the water. Also she stated that do use an amber colored bottle. So basically it is about the same as what is done here. She told me that it is wonderful that I have the knowledge to do it myself to minimize the cost. If I wanted them to do it, I could provide my own Teva. I am glad that I called and got confirmation that what I have been doing is what they do!

Again, I am not promoting any one method. I am sharing my experience of what works for me. Like I stated last night, do whatever method you need or want to do to get off. It is just so frustrating to see this method being touted as the wrong thing to do. What method is right? It all depends on the individual person. It does not have to be so complicated. Peace.

 

Hi Dana,

 

Thank you for your reply and explanation. But, of course, I was only responding to your (and confuseduser's) comments. I accept that you posted your comments in all innocence.

 

I do not know for sure which forum you joined, but I have a good idea. I can assure you that BB does not promote a rigid approach. Hill's forum was extremely narrow in its approach too - members were expected to rigidly follow Hill's instructions. In case you did not read through all of the Patent thread (and who could blame you if you did not - it is quite lengthy), Hill even banned members for simply reporting problems resulting from following her protocols/directions. Given your experience with another 'rigid' forum, I think you will appreciate why we take the position that we will not allow the promotion of Hill, rigid approaches, or claims for (unfounded) absolute efficacy around here. This does not mean that members may not discuss their experiences, ideas and thoughts about titration, home-made liquids and related matters. Simply put, we are opposed to dogma. We just require members adopt a discussional tone about matters which are not established fact. As you will probably appreciate, you all would have long ago been banned at those two forums for daring to speak your minds. At the same time, though, we do require that members do not bring their own rigid thinking to this forum. This is only reasonable - yes?

[[...]]

Colin,

 

Very reasonable. Again, I have no idea who the gal is. I was not even aware of her until all of commotion started. I had no idea she tried to patent this and that. I very much against rigidity in all aspects of life. I will rebel against it. I respect other people, will not bow down to being told what to do. I come to my conclusions and make my own decisions. Had I ever been on her forum, I would have not lasted. Sounds like a cult following thing. Of course you know the other forum way back that I am talking about. That was a big turn off. I know this forum is nothing like that one or I would not even have joined this one.

My way of thinking is not rigid at all. I embrace all methods to get off of this and everyone will find a different one that suits them best. All I was trying to communicate is that I found my method. That is all. I want the best for everyone here. I hate to see suffering, as I endured it and saw it in my years of being a nurse. You want people to get well and feel good. Healing is the goal. This is unlike anything I have ever seen or had to deal with.

With that being said, I wish everyone here the best and safest off for them. Always have. Always will.

 

[[co...]]

It was Dana who raised the issue of Jana Hill by invoking 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed and promoted by Hill. Only a few weeks ago others and I debunked Hill's patented 'protocols' - a link and warning seemed rather appropriate.

 

If someone mentions or discusses DLMT, does that automatically mean that they are invoking Jana Hill's protocol or Jana Hill?  From what you posted and the links that you included, Jana seems to have other processes and procedures involved than just simple DMLT.  Many of these things confused me or were over my head.

 

Was Jana the first person to come up with the idea of a daily liquid micro taper?  This may be a basic question, but I am honestly not sure of the answer.  I think we need to define this because otherwise we will wind up speaking past each other on this issue.

 

 

 

[[Co...]]

It was Dana who raised the issue of Jana Hill by invoking 'DLMT', the 'protocols' employed and promoted by Hill. Only a few weeks ago others and I debunked Hill's patented 'protocols' - a link and warning seemed rather appropriate.

 

If someone mentions or discusses DLMT, does that automatically mean that they are invoking Jana Hill's protocol or Jana Hill?  From what you posted and the links that you included, Jana seems to have other processes and procedures involved than just simple DMLT.  Many of these things confused me or were over my head.

 

Was Jana the first person to come up with the idea of a daily liquid micro taper?  This may be a basic question, but I am honestly not sure of the answer.  I think we need to define this because otherwise we will wind up speaking past each other on this issue.

 

I do not know of its origins. But 'DLMT' (Daily, Liquid Micro Taper' - so I am lead to believe) always seems to appear in relation to Jana Hill (and her 'protocols'), or is used by those promoting Jana Hill, or by those who 'guarantee' the method as foolproof (expect when it does does not work - it is then the fault of the person following the method). This is extremely analogous of how Hill ran her forum - even banning members for their failures to follow her instructions correctly.

 

Hill uses the term Benzo Micro taper, and she seems to attempt to lay claim to the term Micro Taper. So, if some members here use similar terms, similar methods, and make similar fantastical claims for efficacy, they will be treated as synonymous, irrespective of the precise term they utilise for their method/protocols.

 

The problem here is that we have some members pushing so hard for their particular idea, it has ended up where it appears that they are promoting 'official' BB position of method:

 

https://www.facebook.com/benzotaper/posts/it-has-been-brought-to-the-administrations-attention-that-benzobuddies-is-only-s/480648602726105/

 

That's odd, because I had not even heard of it until recently and I certainly have not been promoting it.

 

I should volunteer that a lot of the information on our website is outdated. Much of it is well over ten years old. Although my designated role title is 'documentation', in reality - for a very long time now - my role has been restricted to drawing up changes to rules and policy; not the provision of practical documentation for the process of withdrawal. Again, in the distant past (ten years or more and somewhat more recent than that too), when I asked members for input and assistance in such matters, I received little to no positive feedback. I could no longer commit to the time required to (re-)develop such content, so it became fixed. So, what we have now generally reflects what people were doing at the time (10-15 years ago). However, much more recently, we have received some additional help from members (and team members) who wish to update and improve documentation. And I have had some extra time to help too (but this will be coming to an end soon). I am not blaming anyone for not providing input in the past, as we all have other commitments (not least, simply recovering from the use of benzodiazepines); and if I was unable to volunteer the time and effort, I surely cannot expect this from others. But, ultimately, BB is what members make of it. That's all of us.

 

I hope more members do volunteer to help out where they can. Suggestions for improvements are always welcome. At the moment, a small team (just three of us, in different time zones and all with other commitments) are attempting to address some of the more serious shortcomings with the withdrawal documentation. Because of the vociferous promotion of some very narrow ideas by some, their inability to accept constructive feedback, and their refusal to accept any possible shortcomings in their approach, we have been more in 'repair mode'. What we need is for (a small number of) members to adopt a more discussional vocabulary and be open to the idea that there may be limitations to their approach and they could be wrong. At its most extreme we have one member arguing using a educational website aimed at young children to argue basic chemistry with an actual chemist who for many years worked in QC within the pharmaceutical industry. The team and other members have tried our very best to explain the problem here and move forward. Some members have moved and get it; a few continue to refuse to budge* from their position. Our patience has worn out, so we are now forced to demand changes in approach from (some) members, or their posts will be restricted.

 

* British English - it means 'move'. You will sometimes hear 'budge up', which means 'scooch over'.

 

BB is primarily a discussion forum. We will not stand for the promotion of dogmatic approaches to withdrawal and taper plans. Dogmatic approaches have been tried at other Benzo sites - they all closed. Maybe we cannot prove cause and effect from this correlation, but I am convinced that it played a large part in reasons for closure of those sites.

[[Ho...]]

I use the term "daily liquid micro taper" for what I'm doing. I didn't know it was strictly associated with someone's method. It just has a nice ring to it and describes the process.

[[Co...]]

I use the term "daily liquid micro taper" for what I'm doing. I didn't know it was strictly associated with someone's method. It just has a nice ring to it and describes the process.

 

I don't know about the 'strictly' part. The problem is that there is an association/correlation; for this reason I tend to jump on its use. Certainly, though, Jana Hill has tried to lay claim to 'micro taper'. At the end of the day, every taper system is, in essence, the same thing: gradually reducing dose. Some prefer or need to to make smaller cuts, and there are only two real parameters to juggle: size of cuts; and frequency of cuts. Everything else resolves around the practicalities of achieving these two goals.

[[Al...]]

Question: isn't telling someone that: "You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless" against the rules of the forum?

 

"Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purposes of causing arguments and/or ill-feeling will be banned."

 

Yet these remarks were present in the following post:

 

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time.

 

What is your beef?  STOP disregarding those who experience is different than yours.

 

SO many people have been helped by this process, and yet the naysayers, and their minions, keep trying to steer people away from it and the people who have benefitted the most from it.  It really seems like it is their undying mission in life to quash the voices of those who have been, and are continuing to be, helped by these methods of eliminating benzos from their lives.

 

 

Who exactly are you refering to as a "naysayer/minions" pal You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless ...when you make blanket statements such as this it only shows these negative traits.

 

This is the most ridiculous, absurd statement I have heard on here in awhile.

 

Who would you say is more at fault in the above exchange? The member who provoked the exchange, or the respondent? Please note, we took no action against either of them. After all, we are all grown ups here and we generally tolerate a few terse words from members (so long as they do not go too far and are not habitual).

 

Who WOULD you all say is more at fault in the above exchange regarding the rules of this forum?  And, apparently, if you FEEL provoked, some people can call any buddy all of the insulting and disparaging words that they feel like without regards to the rules.

 

 

 

 

But, agree with me or not, my words are here to dissect and critique. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and everyone can read it, and critique me and my message. And where I do not agree with the critique (or push-back), I will argue my corner. And, there is no danger of my interlocutor being banned from BB for simply disagreeing with me or another member of the team, unlike Hill's interlocutors at her forum.

 

 

Colin,

 

Look, I (and others) was attacked/retaliated against with some pretty disgusting and vile comments from this person, which I never responded to; comments for which you would have probably banned me, or at least restricted my account, if we want to be perfectly honest. 

 

I applaud confuseduser for coming forward to call attention to the forum rules and attempting to get an answer to a question that I, and many others I suspect, have been wondering about for quite some time; a question which was not adequately addressed (perceived provocation = get out of jail free card?; terse words?; not habitual). 

 

And if her retaliation was NOT an attack created for the purposes of causing ill-feeling, while being rude and disrespectful (which is habitual with her), then I do not know what is!  And THAT is against your rules.

 

But I really could care less about her.  Her hate-filled opinions mean absolutely nothing to me.  And, I accept her apology.

 

I do not want to argue anymore.  I was unwittingly off-base.  I see both sides of this issue now.  I understand where you are coming from and know how you feel that you must run this forum.  I agree to abide by the rules.

 

Home brews are not guaranteed.  Neither is C&H.  Whatever works for one person, may not work for the next.  I know this.  I also know what has worked wonders for me, and many others.  I'm sure just as many people have been helped by other methods, and I am happy for them.

 

It was wrong of me to use the term "cut and suffer" more than once in my messages to you.  I see now how they could cause hurt and I know how you do not like the term, no matter how much it can be applicable in certain instances.

 

Jana was well ahead of me.  I only know of her through your links to her and her tribe.  I do not agree with a lot of what she espouses.  I do not knowingly promote her practices; I do not know that much about them to do so.  So, I am not a plant of Jana's here on this forum.

 

I fully realize now that if one method does not work for someone, they should not be made to feel as if it is their fault.  If I have done so in the past, I apologize.  It would not have been my intent, I assure you. 

 

But is it OK to question others as to how they go about preparing their med, i.e., how much alcohol do you use for each mg of benzo?, or how much does one pill weigh and how much weight are you shaving off of it?  What harm is done by questioning someone's practices with the intent of solving a possible problem with their titration? 

 

I do not want to intentionally intimidate anyone regarding whichever method they have chosen to use.  I simply want to get off all of my meds with the least amount of suffering possible; and help others to do the same, whichever method they choose.

 

Again, I intend to abide by the rules here.  If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize and hope that you can accept my apology and move on.  I intend to do just that.

 

Thank you for providing this forum for all of us, Colin and your entire team.  I appreciate it, and your abundant leniency, very much.

 

Al

 

P.S.

I apologize once again, HTDT, hopefully for the last time.  I hope others will chime in here to give you more responses to your questions.

 

 

[[...]]

I use the term "daily liquid micro taper" for what I'm doing. I didn't know it was strictly associated with someone's method. It just has a nice ring to it and describes the process.

 

This has been around a long time. The only difference is when I did it, it was plain old water. There was nothing known about solvents. Also I would pull off and discard. I like this method of no waste. It makes so much sense. Nothing new about this. Just the solvents. Hope you are doing well.

[[Ca...]]

Question: isn't telling someone that: "You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless" against the rules of the forum?

 

"Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purposes of causing arguments and/or ill-feeling will be banned."

 

Yet these remarks were present in the following post:

 

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time.

 

What is your beef?  STOP disregarding those who experience is different than yours.

 

SO many people have been helped by this process, and yet the naysayers, and their minions, keep trying to steer people away from it and the people who have benefitted the most from it.  It really seems like it is their undying mission in life to quash the voices of those who have been, and are continuing to be, helped by these methods of eliminating benzos from their lives.

 

 

Who exactly are you refering to as a "naysayer/minions" pal You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless ...when you make blanket statements such as this it only shows these negative traits.

 

This is the most ridiculous, absurd statement I have heard on here in awhile.

 

Who would you say is more at fault in the above exchange? The member who provoked the exchange, or the respondent? Please note, we took no action against either of them. After all, we are all grown ups here and we generally tolerate a few terse words from members (so long as they do not go too far and are not habitual).

 

Who WOULD you all say is more at fault in the above exchange regarding the rules of this forum?  And, apparently, if you FEEL provoked, some people can call any buddy all of the insulting and disparaging words that they feel like without regards to the rules.

 

 

 

 

But, agree with me or not, my words are here to dissect and critique. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and everyone can read it, and critique me and my message. And where I do not agree with the critique (or push-back), I will argue my corner. And, there is no danger of my interlocutor being banned from BB for simply disagreeing with me or another member of the team, unlike Hill's interlocutors at her forum.

 

 

Colin,

 

Look, I (and others) was attacked/retaliated against with some pretty disgusting and vile comments from this person, which I never responded to; comments for which you would have probably banned me, or at least restricted my account, if we want to be perfectly honest. 

 

I applaud confuseduser for coming forward to call attention to the forum rules and attempting to get an answer to a question that I, and many others I suspect, have been wondering about for quite some time; a question which was not adequately addressed (perceived provocation = get out of jail free card?; terse words?; not habitual). 

 

And if her retaliation was NOT an attack created for the purposes of causing ill-feeling, while being rude and disrespectful (which is habitual with her), then I do not know what is!  And THAT is against your rules.

 

But I really could care less about her.  Her hate-filled opinions mean absolutely nothing to me.  And, I accept her apology.

 

I do not want to argue anymore.  I was unwittingly off-base.  I see both sides of this issue now.  I understand where you are coming from and know how you feel that you must run this forum.  I agree to abide by the rules.

 

Home brews are not guaranteed.  Neither is C&H.  Whatever works for one person, may not work for the next.  I know this.  I also know what has worked wonders for me, and many others.  I'm sure just as many people have been helped by other methods, and I am happy for them.

 

It was wrong of me to use the term "cut and suffer" more than once in my messages to you.  I see now how they could cause hurt and I know how you do not like the term, no matter how much it can be applicable in certain instances.

 

Jana was well ahead of me.  I only know of her through your links to her and her tribe.  I do not agree with a lot of what she espouses.  I do not knowingly promote her practices; I do not know that much about them to do so.  So, I am not a plant of Jana's here on this forum.

 

I fully realize now that if one method does not work for someone, they should not be made to feel as if it is their fault.  If I have done so in the past, I apologize.  It would not have been my intent, I assure you. 

 

But is it OK to question others as to how they go about preparing their med, i.e., how much alcohol do you use for each mg of benzo?, or how much does one pill weigh and how much weight are you shaving off of it?  What harm is done by questioning someone's practices with the intent of solving a possible problem with their titration? 

 

I do not want to intentionally intimidate anyone regarding whichever method they have chosen to use.  I simply want to get off all of my meds with the least amount of suffering possible; and help others to do the same, whichever method they choose.

 

Again, I intend to abide by the rules here.  If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize and hope that you can accept my apology and move on.  I intend to do just that.

 

Thank you for providing this forum for all of us, Colin and your entire team.  I appreciate it, and your abundant leniency, very much.

 

Al

 

P.S.

I apologize once again, HTDT, hopefully for the last time.  I hope others will chime in here to give you more responses to your questions.

 

Its good to see a bit of “shoe on the other foot” has clarified some thinking in the long run...

 

“Look”... All I (and others) ever asked for is that people didnt automatically (repeatedly) assume and insist that reported issues with titration were “all in our heads..” (This goes back in years, and doesnt apply to all here..)

 

Happy to accept sincere apologies, -and Al Sharp, dont feel Too singled out by my quoting this post..

-I have realised I have to cater to “others” apparent learning “restrictions”...

 

Glad to see we are making progress... Thanks to the team, all that understand, -and also thanks HTDT for your patience...