solution Stability (xanax)

[[Gu...]]

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time.

 

What is your beef? Nobody is disputing this. What is of concern here is providing a platform to guide/inform inquisitive folks who are trying to make an informed decision regarding a safe, reliable method that is right for THEM, as an individual. Ideally this decision should be based on fact not hypothesis and speculation or trial and error. Just because a method worked for you does not mean it will work for everyone. It is neither proven or disproven. Scientific data/studies simply does not exist. Please STOP disregarding those who experience is different than yours. They deserve more respect than this.

 

SO many people have been helped by this process, and yet the naysayers, and their minions, keep trying to steer people away from it and the people who have benefitted the most from it.  It really seems like it is their undying mission in life to quash the voices of those who have been, and are continuing to be, helped by these methods of eliminating benzos from their lives.

 

 

No one is disputing how many have been helped. Who exactly are you refering to as a "naysayer/minions" pal You obviously are narrowminded, ignorant and clueless ...when you make blanket statements such as this it only shows these negative traits.

 

There has to be a devious or embarrassing underlying reason for their negativity and their non-stop, pull out all stops efforts to quash this truth.

 

This is the most ridiculous, absurd statement I have heard on here in awhile. Don't you think that if Colin wanted to "pull out all stops efforts/voices to squash the truth" As owner, he would simply not allow this content to be published? For some reason your lack of understanding and ability to reason seems a bit skeewed...

 

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

That's the problem. I don't have any, but it would be nice to find it.

 

 

 

 

Then how have you determined that benzos do not follow the universal process of dissolution? 

[[bu...]]

But these are hypotheticals, since I don't have any data.

 

 

 

[[Ho...]]

 

 

 

That's the problem. I don't have any, but it would be nice to find it.

 

 

 

 

 

Then how have you determined that benzos do not follow the universal process of dissolution? 

 

How have you determined that benzos are infinitely stable in a solution containing vodka and water?

 

[[Ho...]]

Ooo this is interesting. Maybe I should wrap my bottle in foil.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11977103

 

Abstract

Accelerated thermal, hydrolytic, and photochemical degradations of alprazolam were performed under several reaction conditions. The stress studies revealed the photolability of the drug as the most adverse stability factor; the main photodegradation products were isolated and properly characterized as: triazolaminoquinoleine; 5-chloro-[5"-methyl-4H-1,2,4-triazol-4-yl]benzophenone, and 1-methyl-6-phenyl-4H-s-triazo-[4,3-alpha][1,4]benzodiazepinone. Accelerated pH-dependent studies show that the photoinstability increases as the pH decreases; at pH 9.0, photodegradation does not occur, therefore, the photochemical degradation of alprazolam was performed in buffered solutions at pH 2.0 and 3.6. The higher rate of reaction was observed at pH = 2.0; consequently, acidic conditions should be avoided and appropriate light protection is recommended during the drug-development process, storage, and handling. The main degradation route for alprazolam tablets is also photochemical.

[[bu...]]

 

No. And you have been told this so many times, builder. Your basic high school chemistry does not trump the experience and knowledge of an actual chemist with highly relevant work experience. You are a walking, talking prime example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I know that you have already read the following; I include them now for other readers.

 

 

 

You continue to dismiss the validity of my citations, but thus far, the actual evidence that benzos do not follow the normal process of dissolution is zero.

 

Our professional chemist  (who's professional expertise is the production of extended release tablets)  has acknowledged that his views are hypothetical, and there is no body of evidence to support them.

[[Co...]]

Ooo this is interesting. Maybe I should wrap my bottle in foil.

 

You may be onto something there, HTDT. Evidently, though, some around here would be better advised to use the foil to line their hats.

[[bu...]]

Ooo this is interesting. Maybe I should wrap my bottle in foil.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11977103

 

Abstract

Accelerated thermal, hydrolytic, and photochemical degradations of alprazolam were performed under several reaction conditions. The stress studies revealed the photolability of the drug as the most adverse stability factor; the main photodegradation products were isolated and properly characterized as: triazolaminoquinoleine; 5-chloro-[5"-methyl-4H-1,2,4-triazol-4-yl]benzophenone, and 1-methyl-6-phenyl-4H-s-triazo-[4,3-alpha][1,4]benzodiazepinone. Accelerated pH-dependent studies show that the photoinstability increases as the pH decreases; at pH 9.0, photodegradation does not occur, therefore, the photochemical degradation of alprazolam was performed in buffered solutions at pH 2.0 and 3.6. The higher rate of reaction was observed at pH = 2.0; consequently, acidic conditions should be avoided and appropriate light protection is recommended during the drug-development process, storage, and handling. The main degradation route for alprazolam tablets is also photochemical.

 

"...did not occur"

 

Did you actually read it before you posted it?

[[Ho...]]

Ooo this is interesting. Maybe I should wrap my bottle in foil.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11977103

 

Abstract

Accelerated thermal, hydrolytic, and photochemical degradations of alprazolam were performed under several reaction conditions. The stress studies revealed the photolability of the drug as the most adverse stability factor; the main photodegradation products were isolated and properly characterized as: triazolaminoquinoleine; 5-chloro-[5"-methyl-4H-1,2,4-triazol-4-yl]benzophenone, and 1-methyl-6-phenyl-4H-s-triazo-[4,3-alpha][1,4]benzodiazepinone. Accelerated pH-dependent studies show that the photoinstability increases as the pH decreases; at pH 9.0, photodegradation does not occur, therefore, the photochemical degradation of alprazolam was performed in buffered solutions at pH 2.0 and 3.6. The higher rate of reaction was observed at pH = 2.0; consequently, acidic conditions should be avoided and appropriate light protection is recommended during the drug-development process, storage, and handling. The main degradation route for alprazolam tablets is also photochemical.

 

"...did not occur"

 

Did you actually read it before you posted it?

 

Yes I read it. 

 

"At pH 9.0, photodegradation does not occur"

 

"Accelerated pH-dependent studies show that the photoinstability increases as the pH decreases;"

 

"he higher rate of reaction was observed at pH = 2.0;"

 

"consequently, acidic conditions should be avoided and appropriate light protection is recommended during the drug-development process, storage, and handling. "

 

"The main degradation route for alprazolam tablets is also photochemical."

 

 

[[Co...]]

Ooo this is interesting. Maybe I should wrap my bottle in foil.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11977103

 

Abstract

Accelerated thermal, hydrolytic, and photochemical degradations of alprazolam were performed under several reaction conditions. The stress studies revealed the photolability of the drug as the most adverse stability factor; the main photodegradation products were isolated and properly characterized as: triazolaminoquinoleine; 5-chloro-[5"-methyl-4H-1,2,4-triazol-4-yl]benzophenone, and 1-methyl-6-phenyl-4H-s-triazo-[4,3-alpha][1,4]benzodiazepinone. Accelerated pH-dependent studies show that the photoinstability increases as the pH decreases; at pH 9.0, photodegradation does not occur, therefore, the photochemical degradation of alprazolam was performed in buffered solutions at pH 2.0 and 3.6. The higher rate of reaction was observed at pH = 2.0; consequently, acidic conditions should be avoided and appropriate light protection is recommended during the drug-development process, storage, and handling. The main degradation route for alprazolam tablets is also photochemical.

 

"...did not occur"

 

Did you actually read it before you posted it?

 

Yes I read it. 

 

"At pH 9.0, photodegradation does not occur"

 

"Accelerated pH-dependent studies show that the photoinstability increases as the pH decreases;"

 

"he higher rate of reaction was observed at pH = 2.0;"

 

"consequently, acidic conditions should be avoided and appropriate light protection is recommended during the drug-development process, storage, and handling. "

 

"The main degradation route for alprazolam tablets is also photochemical."

 

 

 

No. And you have been told this so many times, builder. Your basic high school chemistry does not trump the experience and knowledge of an actual chemist with highly relevant work experience. You are a walking, talking prime example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I know that you have already read the following; I include them now for other readers.

 

You continue to dismiss the validity of my citations, but thus far, the actual evidence that benzos do not follow the normal process of dissolution is zero.

 

Our professional chemist  (who's professional expertise is the production of extended release tablets)  has acknowledged that his views are hypothetical, and there is no body of evidence to support them.

 

On the one hand, we have your citation from the 'Chemistry for Kids' website. On the other, we have a chemist who worked in the pharmaceutical industry. Kindergarten Chemist; or Pharmaceutical Industry Chemist? How will I ever decide?

[[Gu...]]

On the one hand, we have your citation from the 'Chemistry for Kids' website. On the other, we have a chemist who worked in the pharmaceutical industry. Kindergarten Chemist; or Pharmaceutical Industry Chemist? How will I ever decide?

 

 

 

[[bu...]]

Ooo this is interesting. Maybe I should wrap my bottle in foil.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11977103

 

Abstract

Accelerated thermal, hydrolytic, and photochemical degradations of alprazolam were performed under several reaction conditions. The stress studies revealed the photolability of the drug as the most adverse stability factor; the main photodegradation products were isolated and properly characterized as: triazolaminoquinoleine; 5-chloro-[5"-methyl-4H-1,2,4-triazol-4-yl]benzophenone, and 1-methyl-6-phenyl-4H-s-triazo-[4,3-alpha][1,4]benzodiazepinone. Accelerated pH-dependent studies show that the photoinstability increases as the pH decreases; at pH 9.0, photodegradation does not occur, therefore, the photochemical degradation of alprazolam was performed in buffered solutions at pH 2.0 and 3.6. The higher rate of reaction was observed at pH = 2.0; consequently, acidic conditions should be avoided and appropriate light protection is recommended during the drug-development process, storage, and handling. The main degradation route for alprazolam tablets is also photochemical.

 

"...did not occur"

 

Did you actually read it before you posted it?

 

Yes I read it. 

 

"At pH 9.0, photodegradation does not occur"

 

"Accelerated pH-dependent studies show that the photoinstability increases as the pH decreases;"

 

"he higher rate of reaction was observed at pH = 2.0;"

 

"consequently, acidic conditions should be avoided and appropriate light protection is recommended during the drug-development process, storage, and handling. "

 

"The main degradation route for alprazolam tablets is also photochemical."

 

 

 

No. And you have been told this so many times, builder. Your basic high school chemistry does not trump the experience and knowledge of an actual chemist with highly relevant work experience. You are a walking, talking prime example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I know that you have already read the following; I include them now for other readers.

 

You continue to dismiss the validity of my citations, but thus far, the actual evidence that benzos do not follow the normal process of dissolution is zero.

 

Our professional chemist  (who's professional expertise is the production of extended release tablets)  has acknowledged that his views are hypothetical, and there is no body of evidence to support them.

 

On the one hand, we have your citation from the 'Chemistry for Kids' website. On the other, we have a chemist who worked in the pharmaceutical industry. Kindergarten Chemist; or Pharmaceutical Industry Chemist? How will I ever decide?

 

...who still has not provided a shred of evidence that a benzo in solution loses efficacy.  His single reference address photo-sensitivity,  the variable is pH,  provides no actual measured value, and has nothing to do with dissolution!  There is nothing in that study that references any relationship between dissolution and efficacy

 

And acknowledges that his views are hypothetical and lack any valid citation.

 

Come on folks.  I know y'all are googling like crazy.  Bring me those documents that say, if you dissolve a benzo in alcohol or PG, it will alter its efficacy or potency. You can make fun of my chemistry for kids link, but it's more than y'all have shown.  I purposely chose that source to drive home the point that is is absolutely elementary and basic.

[[bu...]]

Many folks find discontinuing benzos difficult.  That's because they have changed the way the biosystem responds to GABA.  If the benzo is discontinued to quickly, there can be significant withdrawal effects. 

 

The classic protocol has long been the cut&suffer method.  I know that term pisses Colin off, but most folks who have tried it will confirm that it's an appropriated description.  Basically, this method is to make a significant single cut, perhaps 5%, then hold at that dose for some period, perhaps 10 days, while (hopefully) the symptoms subside.  There are several limitations to this method.  1)  The initial shock of the cut, and the discomfort, will be the same no matter how long you hold. 2) Its challenging (sometimes impossible) to divide your tablets into small enough doses to make smal cuts.  This is especially true for high dose potency benzos like clonazepam.

 

So if cut&suffer doesn't seem to be working, we need to consider how to make smaller cuts, and maybe, smaller cuts, more often.  There are ways to do that.

Realistically, about the smallest you really divide a tablet with any kind of consistence is into 4 pieces.  But if you use a "precision" scale, you can measure out much smaller decrements.  This method will work.  There are a few drawbacks, though.  Obviously, its fiddly and labor-intensive.  Your trying to measure out tablet or powder weight to .001 g.  And those $20 precision scales that folks get from Amazon, really are NOT "precision".  And then there's the problem that the active ingredient is NOT uniformly distributed in a tablet, so you actually dose consistency is uncertain.  But, again, for most folks, this will work.

 

In the US there are 3 Rx liquid benzos, diazepam (2 formulations) lorazepam, and alprozalam.  There is no Rx clonazepam in the US, but there is many other countries.  All of them use either alcohol or propylene glycol as a base solvent.These can (and should be)  diluted to dilute concentrations like .1mg=1ml, which allows you to easily measure doses/decremetns to .01 (hundredth) of a milligram.  Rx liquid is the gold standard for a liquid taper.  It's manufactured under tight quality control, and its uniformity is completely reliable.

 

But...many docs are not even aware that Rx liquids are available, and/or are reluctant to Rx them .  So  in reality, Rx liquid is probably not an option for most folks.  But there is a simple alternative.  You can convert your tablets into a stable, uniformly distributed liquid by using either one of the same solvents that the pharma mfgr use, and dilute that with water, just like the pharma mfgrs do.

 

So here's the summary.  You can 1)  try the cut&suffer method, 2) get a scale and cut/scrape/grind, etc. your tablets, 3) ask your  doc for a scrip for liquid (unless you're on clonazepam), or  4 make your own.  You just combine 3 ingredients (benzo, solvent, and water),  kinda like stirring cream and sugar into your coffee.

 

Now, it's pretty obvious there is a concerted effort here on BB to create an aura of fear around the efficacy or safety of home made liquid (although there has been zero evidence presented to support that)  When I started my DLMT, I had reached a point where continuing the C&H was not even an option.  And I tried "water taper", whcich was a disaster.  I was miserable and wanted off of this debilitating drug (Colin has chastized me for callin it toxic).  So if options 1-3 aren't working for you, what's the risk of trying #4?

[[Gu...]]

Come on folks.  I know y'all are googling like crazy. Bring me those documents that say, if you dissolve a benzo in alcohol or PG, it will alter its efficacy or potency. You can make fun of my chemistry for kids link, but it's more than y'all have shown.  I purposely chose that source to drive home the point that is is absolutely elementary and basic.

 

 

Better yet builder, why don't YOU bring us those documents that say "If you dissolve a benzo in alcohol or PG (that is not soluble in water) then add 90% water to this perfectly viable solution that it will NOT  alter its efficacy or potency"

[[Co...]]

Come on folks.  I know y'all are googling like crazy. Bring me those documents that say, if you dissolve a benzo in alcohol or PG, it will alter its efficacy or potency. You can make fun of my chemistry for kids link, but it's more than y'all have shown.  I purposely chose that source to drive home the point that is is absolutely elementary and basic.

 

Better yet builder, why don't YOU bring us those documents that say "If you dissolve a benzo in alcohol or PG (that is not soluble in water) then add 90% water to this perfectly viable solution that it will NOT alter its efficacy or potency"

 

It is even worse than that. The only citation builder ever supplied which is even vaguely relevant to this discussion was a largely unsuccessful attempt to develop a theoretical (reliable) mathematical model for predicting solutes in medicine. In laboratory conditions, using pure alcohol, pure benzodiazepine and distilled water, precisely controlling for temperature (and other factors), using high-grade laboratory equipment, the model still could not reliably predict a 'simple' three-part solution (pure benzodiazepine, alcohol and water). The results provided a basis for discussion at best, but nothing which could be used by the pharmaceutical industry (which was the aim of the research). Somehow, though, builder's kitchen sink, tap water, vodka, crushed benzo pills (and cat dander) will provide very predictable, reliable, stable and safe benzo-liquid solution - guaranteed to work or your money back Give. Me. A. Break.

[[Ho...]]

Don't get me wrong. I am totally pro-liquid. It has been working for me. I just have questions about it.

 

My question that started this post asked about stability, and if people noticed that their symptoms ramp up as their batch gets older.

 

Yes, there are prescription solutions made by pharma manufacturers. They are specifically formulated so that the drug lasts longer in solution, which is different from formulating for a tablet.

 

Even though I put "xanax" in the title, I am interested in other people's experience with the different drugs too.

[[Co...]]

Don't get me wrong. I am totally pro-liquid. It has been working for me. I just have questions about it.

 

My question that started this post asked about stability, and if people noticed that their symptoms ramp up as their batch gets older.

 

Yes, there are prescription solutions made by pharma manufacturers. They are specifically formulated so that the drug lasts longer in solution, which is different from formulating for a tablet.

 

Even though I put "xanax" in the title, I am interested in other people's experience with the different drugs too.

 

Understood. And a perfectly legitimate topic for discussion.

[[Al...]]

Somehow, though, builder's kitchen sink, tap water, vodka, crushed benzo pills (and cat dander) will provide very predictable, reliable, stable and safe benzo-liquid solution - guaranteed to work or your money back Give. Me. A. Break.

 

Then why does it reliably work for so many people, even just right here on BB and who you refuse to acknowledge their numbers in your argument?  People who have thanked builder for his help from the day he joined this joint?

 

Maybe it's the cat dander? 

[[Co...]]

Dana

 

We must both be using the same super high tech testing equipment, and we both know his name!!!    And it works with both PG and vodka.  Go figure. 

:thumbsup:

 

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time. 

 

SO many people have been helped by this process, and yet the naysayers, and their minions, keep trying to steer people away from it and the people who have benefitted the most from it.  It really seems like it is their undying mission in life to quash the voices of those who have been, and are continuing to be, helped by these methods of eliminating benzos from their lives. 

 

There has to be a devious or embarrassing underlying reason for their negativity and their non-stop, pull out all stops efforts to quash this truth. 

 

From the short amount of time I have been here, it all seems to revolve around someone by the name of Jana, Dana. 

 

'If done properly'? That's a really odd way to describe 'home-brew' benzo-liquids. Surely, 'done properly' should be reserved for tried and tested liquids produced by professionals or licensed manufacturers? This does not mean there can be no discussion around what people do for themselves and their subsequent reporting of the (mixed) results. But let's be honest about what we are doing here. Apart from the misuse of 'properly' when referring to home-made liquids, the use of 'if' (in, 'if done properly') suggests that the layperson is somehow at fault when they report that the home-made preparation does not work for them; and without acknowledging that perhaps there are limitations with the ad hoc benzo-liquid method. And, as such, such phrasing is very unwelcome around here.

[[Co...]]

Somehow, though, builder's kitchen sink, tap water, vodka, crushed benzo pills (and cat dander) will provide very predictable, reliable, stable and safe benzo-liquid solution - guaranteed to work or your money back Give. Me. A. Break.

 

Then why does it reliably work for so many people, even just right here on BB and who you refuse to acknowledge their numbers in your argument?  People who have thanked builder for his help from the day he joined this joint?

 

Maybe it's the cat dander?

 

Oh dear. It is all anecdote. That is the point. It is just that the people arguing for caution understand this; whilst those vociferously arguing for home-made liquids apparently do not.

[[Al...]]

Dana

 

We must both be using the same super high tech testing equipment, and we both know his name!!!    And it works with both PG and vodka.  Go figure. 

:thumbsup:

 

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time.

 

'If done properly'? That's a really odd way to describe 'home-brew' benzo-liquids. Surely, 'done properly' should be reserved for tried and tested liquids produced by professionals or licensed manufacturers? This does not mean there can be no discussion around what people do for themselves and their subsequent reporting of the (mixed) results. But let's be honest about what we are doing here. Apart from the misuse of 'properly' when referring to home-made liquids, the use of 'if' (in, 'if done properly') suggests that the layperson is somehow at fault when they report that the home-made preparation does not work for them; and without acknowledging that perhaps there are limitations with the ad hoc benzo-liquid method. And, as such, such phrasing is very unwelcome around here.

 

No, not "surely".  Not even by a long shot.

 

'If done properly', meaning, simply, following instructions much like in your cut and suffer method.  If you don't properly follow the instructions of a tried and true method as a layperson (be it regarding home-made liquids or c&s) of withdrawing from benzos, how can you come to expect the tried and true results?  Therefore, "properly" is in no way misused in this context, except for that you say so, which does not make it correct.

 

And, the layperson, me included, IS at fault when they report that the home-made preparation does not work for them IF they do not properly follow the instructions, whether they be on a box, an insert or from someone online (you, builder, bella) regarding home-made liquids, Rx preparations or dry-cutting.

 

Many people STILL insist that you can use less than (or more than, for that matter) 2ml of 80% proof alcohol for every 1mg of benzo in the mixture and expect it to work accurately.  Many people STILL store their mixture in the refrigerator and expect the same results as those who don't.  Many people think it is alright to store their mixture on the ledge in the sunlight and expect it to last for 10 to 15 days.  Many people STILL insist that they don't need a scale to measure their dosage while implementing your favored cut and hold.

 

So, 'if done properly' is really NOT an odd way at all to describe 'home-brew' benzo-liquids at all and should not be exclusively reserved for "professionals or licensed manufacturers".

 

Lest you should forget, one must also acknowledge that "perhaps" there are limitations to the cut and suffer method of withdrawal, as well.

 

Regarding your prior post, I think that we all understand caution, whether you think so or not.  It is so often heard around here that if one method does not work for you, try another, with caution, until something does work.  Simple.

 

Therefore, if "such phrasing is very unwelcome around here", phrasing which is proper in it's context and should NOT be censored and silenced, and just reserved for "professionals or licensed manufacturers" only, how in the hell are you ever going to come to any consensus on ANYTHING of controversy around here?

 

Methinks that you are NOT going to ever come to any consensus (not that you even want to), because you hold the key and are the grand pooh bah of censors around here, along with your very few obviously properly instructed moderator attack dogs (bella) who have/had the ability to silence any opinions contrary to your own.  For the most part, the majority of your mods/admins seem fair and balanced.  Honors to them! 

 

You most certainly are biased against builder, his workable method and all of those who have been helped by him and speak up for him.  Just look at bella's disgusting, degrading and deplorable posting history with him which you allowed to continue.  It is no wonder that she is no longer a mod, thank God, and is hiding with shame under another name, yet still bellicosely barking with bias against builder and getting away with it. 

 

You seem determined to silence builder and suppress the method that has proven to work for hundreds on this board.  Cat dander and all!

 

Shame. On. You.

 

P.S.

Thank you very much for allowing "discussion around what people do for themselves and their subsequent reporting of the (mixed) results."  That is one step forward.

 

 

Now, let's get back to helping HTDT, the OP, who has been so polite and patient whilst his thread was hijacked.  I apologize, HTDT. 

[[pi...]]

 

'If done properly', meaning, simply, following instructions much like in your cut and suffer method.  If you don't properly follow the instructions of a tried and true method as a layperson (be it regarding home-made liquids or c&s) of withdrawing from benzos, how can you come to expect the tried and true results?  Therefore, "properly" is in no way misused in this context, except for that you say so, which does not make it correct.

 

My apologies to HTDT but there is more to be said here, you don't get the last word Al Sharp.

 

People like you and other who so freely toss around the term 'cut and suffer' do more to create fear and trepidation in those wishing to taper off benzos than those of use who are raising concerns about the method you so easily promote.  Many are going to run for the hills upon reading the words 'cut and suffer'. How many will decide the effort is not worth it because of the instillation of fear by the use of these words. Whose shoulders should carry this burden?

 

 

 

And, the layperson, me included, IS at fault when they report that the home-made preparation does not work for them IF they do not properly follow the instructions, whether they be on a box, an insert or from someone online (you, builder, bella) regarding home-made liquids, Rx preparations or dry-cutting.

 

What about those who do suffer severe withdrawal symptoms even whilst following the tiny dose reduction plan, following it exactly as suggested to them?  We know of members who are afraid to post their 'failures' on the forum because of the fear of being singled out by highly vocal and aggressive members. We empathize with them, we know that not every plan will work for every person.

 

 

Methinks that you are NOT going to ever come to any consensus (not that you even want to), because you hold the key and are the grand pooh bah of censors around here, along with your very few obviously properly instructed moderator attack dogs (bella) who have/had the ability to silence any opinions contrary to your own.  For the most part, the majority of your mods/admins seem fair and balanced.  Honors to them! 

 

You most certainly are biased against builder, his workable method and all of those who have been helped by him and speak up for him.  Just look at bella's disgusting, degrading and deplorable posting history with him which you allowed to continue.  It is no wonder that she is no longer a mod, thank God, and is hiding with shame under another name, yet still bellicosely barking with bias against builder and getting away with it. 

 

This is highly inappropriate. You have no basis for your claims here. Not only should you not make assumptions about the identity of members, you can not insult or write disrespectful comments about them on the forum, whether they are a team member or not. Additionally I speak for the entire team when I say we support the mission of BB and all that Colin has done and continues to do to make this forum a safe place for people to receive good solid, truthful information about tapering benzos.

 

pianogirl

 

[[Co...]]

You simply cannot help yourself. It is getting late here, so just a short reply from me. I'll mostly simply highlight some of your more unsubstantiated/loaded/disparaging claims and comment only where I must.

 

You are pushing your luck here.

 

Dana

 

We must both be using the same super high tech testing equipment, and we both know his name!!!    And it works with both PG and vodka.  Go figure. 

:thumbsup:

 

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time.

 

'If done properly'? That's a really odd way to describe 'home-brew' benzo-liquids. Surely, 'done properly' should be reserved for tried and tested liquids produced by professionals or licensed manufacturers? This does not mean there can be no discussion around what people do for themselves and their subsequent reporting of the (mixed) results. But let's be honest about what we are doing here. Apart from the misuse of 'properly' when referring to home-made liquids, the use of 'if' (in, 'if done properly') suggests that the layperson is somehow at fault when they report that the home-made preparation does not work for them; and without acknowledging that perhaps there are limitations with the ad hoc benzo-liquid method. And, as such, such phrasing is very unwelcome around here.

 

No, not "surely".  Not even by a long shot.

 

'If done properly', meaning, simply, following instructions much like in your cut and suffer method.  If you don't properly follow the instructions of a tried and true method as a layperson (be it regarding home-made liquids or c&s) of withdrawing from benzos, how can you come to expect the tried and true results?  Therefore, "properly" is in no way misused in this context, except for that you say so, which does not make it correct.

 

And, the layperson, me included, IS at fault when they report that the home-made preparation does not work for them IF they do not properly follow the instructions, whether they be on a box, an insert or from someone online (you, builder, bella) regarding home-made liquids, Rx preparations or dry-cutting.

 

Many people STILL insist that you can use less than (or more than, for that matter) 2ml of 80% proof alcohol for every 1mg of benzo in the mixture and expect it to work accurately.  Many people STILL store their mixture in the refrigerator and expect the same results as those who don't.  Many people think it is alright to store their mixture on the ledge in the sunlight and expect it to last for 10 to 15 days.  Many people STILL insist that they don't need a scale to measure their dosage while implementing your favored cut and hold.

 

So, 'if done properly' is really NOT an odd way at all to describe 'home-brew' benzo-liquids at all and should not be exclusively reserved for "professionals or licensed manufacturers".

 

Lest you should forget, one must also acknowledge that "perhaps" there are limitations to the cut and suffer method of withdrawal, as well.

 

Regarding your prior post, I think that we all understand caution, whether you think so or not.  It is so often heard around here that if one method does not work for you, try another, with caution, until something does work.  Simple.

 

Therefore, if "such phrasing is very unwelcome around here", phrasing which is proper in it's context and should NOT be censored and silenced, and just reserved for "professionals or licensed manufacturers" only, how in the hell are you ever going to come to any consensus on ANYTHING of controversy around here?

 

Methinks that you are NOT going to ever come to any consensus (not that you even want to), because you hold the key and are the grand pooh bah of censors around here, along with your very few obviously properly instructed moderator attack dogs (bella) who have/had the ability to silence any opinions contrary to your own.  For the most part, the majority of your mods/admins seem fair and balanced.  Honors to them!

 

Let's be clear about two things: 1) no members of the team (or any other members) have been instructed to do anything regarding titration threads; and 2) re: your speculation about about the identity of a (former) member - the only 'knowledge' I have of this is from your unwarranted/needless/baseless speculation. You are, speculatively, attempting to both doxx and malign a fellow BB member. Your account here now lies on very thin ice.

 

You most certainly are biased against builder, his workable method and all of those who have been helped by him and speak up for him.  Just look at bella's disgusting, degrading and deplorable posting history with him which you allowed to continue.  It is no wonder that she is no longer a mod, thank God, and is hiding with shame under another name, yet still bellicosely barking with bias against builder and getting away with it.

 

As per my previous comments.

 

You seem determined to silence builder and suppress the method that has proven to work for hundreds on this board.  Cat dander and all!

 

Shame. On. You.

 

P.S.

Thank you very much for allowing "discussion around what people do for themselves and their subsequent reporting of the (mixed) results."  That is one step forward.

 

There has been no change - it has always been this way. Don't you dare attempt to imply otherwise.

 

Now, let's get back to helping HTDT, the OP, who has been so polite and patient whilst his thread was hijacked.  I apologize, HTDT.

 

Good grief.

 

No more chances, Al Sharp.

[[bu...]]

OK, my head hurts, so I'm going stop banging on the wall.  Y'all can just live with your conjecture and what-ifs.  Me, I'm fine with the concepts that are so simple they can obviously be understood by  junior high kids.

 

Y'all probably don't believe in climate change either!

[[...]]

Many folks find discontinuing benzos difficult.  That's because they have changed the way the biosystem responds to GABA.  If the benzo is discontinued to quickly, there can be significant withdrawal effects. 

 

The classic protocol has long been the cut&suffer method.  I know that term pisses Colin off, but most folks who have tried it will confirm that it's an appropriated description.  Basically, this method is to make a significant single cut, perhaps 5%, then hold at that dose for some period, perhaps 10 days, while (hopefully) the symptoms subside.  There are several limitations to this method.  1)  The initial shock of the cut, and the discomfort, will be the same no matter how long you hold. 2) Its challenging (sometimes impossible) to divide your tablets into small enough doses to make smal cuts.  This is especially true for high dose potency benzos like clonazepam.

 

So if cut&suffer doesn't seem to be working, we need to consider how to make smaller cuts, and maybe, smaller cuts, more often.  There are ways to do that.

Realistically, about the smallest you really divide a tablet with any kind of consistence is into 4 pieces.  But if you use a "precision" scale, you can measure out much smaller decrements.  This method will work.  There are a few drawbacks, though.  Obviously, its fiddly and labor-intensive.  Your trying to measure out tablet or powder weight to .001 g.  And those $20 precision scales that folks get from Amazon, really are NOT "precision".  And then there's the problem that the active ingredient is NOT uniformly distributed in a tablet, so you actually dose consistency is uncertain.  But, again, for most folks, this will work.

 

In the US there are 3 Rx liquid benzos, diazepam (2 formulations) lorazepam, and alprozalam.  There is no Rx clonazepam in the US, but there is many other countries.  All of them use either alcohol or propylene glycol as a base solvent.These can (and should be)  diluted to dilute concentrations like .1mg=1ml, which allows you to easily measure doses/decremetns to .01 (hundredth) of a milligram.  Rx liquid is the gold standard for a liquid taper.  It's manufactured under tight quality control, and its uniformity is completely reliable.

 

But...many docs are not even aware that Rx liquids are available, and/or are reluctant to Rx them .  So  in reality, Rx liquid is probably not an option for most folks.  But there is a simple alternative.  You can convert your tablets into a stable, uniformly distributed liquid by using either one of the same solvents that the pharma mfgr use, and dilute that with water, just like the pharma mfgrs do.

 

So here's the summary.  You can 1)  try the cut&suffer method, 2) get a scale and cut/scrape/grind, etc. your tablets, 3) ask your  doc for a scrip for liquid (unless you're on clonazepam), or  4 make your own.  You just combine 3 ingredients (benzo, solvent, and water),  kinda like stirring cream and sugar into your coffee.

 

Now, it's pretty obvious there is a concerted effort here on BB to create an aura of fear around the efficacy or safety of home made liquid (although there has been zero evidence presented to support that)  When I started my DLMT, I had reached a point where continuing the C&H was not even an option.  And I tried "water taper", whcich was a disaster.  I was miserable and wanted off of this debilitating drug (Colin has chastized me for callin it toxic).  So if options 1-3 aren't working for you, what's the risk of trying #4?

 

I totally agree. I had tried all of the methods mentioned, including a hellish C/T before we had all of this information. Cut and hold which at higher doses may not be too bad, but as one gets lower, it is rough and that is where many folks either stop, give up, up dose etc. I saw it many times with people on the very old forum. I did do the water taper which was all we knew at the time. Also rough. When I discovered the DLMT on here, it was like a new hope for me. I use the PG instead of alcohol, only because my gut is sensitive. I also used the pills in combo with the liquid. It works for me. Why diss it? I want quality of life and I refuse to suffer needlessly, so I have chosen the method that will help me get down safely and with minimal symptoms. Not everyone may like it, but why all of a sudden is there this uproar about it being so unsafe? There are many options, as Builder mentioned. Do the one that is right for you. I do know that it is about gradual tapering and not so much the precision. From my own experience. I was never put down or intimidated by Builder. I screwed up last May with my math and accidentally came down by .5mg of k in 5 days. I let him know and he gave me his advise and got my math straightened out. Never, did he make me feel like an idiot. Never! All I have seen is him trying to help people that ask him for it. If they don't like the method, then, again, try another option. Benzo withdrawal is not for everyone. It takes a lot of patience, determination, and in my case Faith. It is the hardest thing, I believe that any of us have had to endure.

I can only hope that things will settle down and there can be some Peace on here.