Quebec City mosque shooter was taking Paroxetine at the time of the murders

[[La...]]

It would change medicine completely, I believe. There are so many adverse reactions to medications of all kinds, and if we have known biological indicators, then we can potentially minimize such reactions. There was a recent article in the Globe and Mail on this topic too, and I felt quite hopeful after reading it.

 

Years ago, I found out about a seven-year study that's been taking place at Toronto's Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, whereby people were giving DNA samples in order to find out which antidepressants and which antipsychotics might be better or worse for them. That study (IMPACT) was mentioned in the Globe article, and I believe the results should soon be available. By the way, I think it was a joint US/Canada study.

 

Cost would be an important factor to consider. Let's hope the tests would be affordable and accessible to all, since they'd be potentially lifesaving.

[[La...]]

Green Cup, I just wanted to follow up on something you mentioned above. This Quebec City shooter had some elements of what you referred to, i.e. he thought he was helping others, including his family, by "saving them" from possible terrorist attacks when he shot the people in the mosque. He stated that in his initial interview, of which we saw just a snippet this week. They haven't released the whole thing, but he was clearly agitated and crying, and he even said, "I hope I didn't hurt anyone." He had been drinking too, so that, too, would have clouded his judgment.

 

He had planned to commit suicide, but instead, he called 911 and turned himself in. The officer on the phone kept him talking for 50 minutes, so he never went to the forest to shoot himself, as he had planned.

 

I'm not sure whether he had a psychiatric assessment at the time of his arrest, and I can't tell either whether he was under the care of a mental health professional or not before the shooting. It's not clear who prescribed the paroxetine to him -- perhaps his family doctor. He was also on a leave from work due to anxiety, and his parents said he was "unstable", which is why he was staying with them for awhile. Again, there are questions that should have been raised about his fitness for legally owning and operating a gun under such circumstances. I'm unfamiliar with the facts around gun ownership here in Canada because, really, it's just not something I think about too much.

[[La...]]

Did others read this study?

 

"Paroxetine—The Antidepressant from Hell? Probably Not, But Caution Required"

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044489/ 

 

There's so much to be concerned about with this medication -- including breast cancer risks. The list is long. Wow.

 

 

And benzohno, thanks so much for posting this one too:

 

"The relevance of cytochrome P450 polymorphism in forensic medicine and akathisia-related violence and suicide"

 

Check the highlights. They confirm why pharmacogenetic testing is absolutely necessary.

 

Highlights

 

    •ADRs to akathisia-inducing drugs include toxic psychosis, homicide and suicide.

    •Genetically-determined metabolism of Cytochrome P450 contributes to toxicity.

    •Behavioural dyscontrol coincides with toxic or fast changing brain levels.

    •Three homicide studies elucidate how CYP450 enzymes interacted with drugs in use.

 

http://www.jflmjournal.org/article/S1752-928X(16)30005-1/fulltext

[[or...]]

Did others read this study?

 

"Paroxetine—The Antidepressant from Hell? Probably Not, But Caution Required"

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044489/ 

 

There's so much to be concerned about with this medication -- including breast cancer risks. The list is long. Wow.

 

I just read this, Lapis. Thank you for posting it.

 

Paxil is one of the ADs that I "failed" many years ago due to disabling dizziness. I'm glad I had to discontinue it. Heavens, what a horrible array of s/x.

 

Again, thank you for the informative articles you post.

 

Katz

[[ba...]]

Lapis,

 

As usual, you have presented a solid case against the prescriptive use of psychotropic medications.  I want you to know that I have used many of your linked articles, as well as medical journal studies, to hopefully convince family and friends to discontinue such medications. Unfortunately, only one person has listened to my (and my husband’s) advice.  The rest are on their own, and I’m sorry about that.  I wish them well...  Anyway, thank you for your perseverance!  And you too, FG!

[[La...]]

Hi babyrex,

I wasn't actually trying to build a case against antidepressants at all. I was just presenting a particular story and asking what role the medication might have played in this particular shooter's actions. We don't know and I don't believe we will know. But the questions should be asked and people should be aware of the possible effects of the medications.

 

Again, I don't think it's a black or white issue. I think people need to make informed decisions. I haven't ever told others what to do when it comes to these things, but I do think the information that's available to us at this point is phenomenal. We're living in a time when we can access a massive library at the touch of a few keystrokes. Amazing! Knowledge is power. If people take the time to inform themselves, then they can make their own decisions about what's right for them.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you've shared information with others, because that's the best thing you can do. I think some people reach a point where the cognitive dissonance is too much to bear, and they realize that the medication they're taking might be the cause of the problems they're having. That's when the tough questions come in and the decisions have to be made. I believe that's how it happened for many of us here on BB with benzodiazepines.

 

 

[Guest [Kp...]]

It's apparent to me that some of the members on this thread who have gotten off of psychiatric drugs have not exactly found the "promise land" that they were expecting, which people like Breggin and Whitaker were making them believe they would get to.

 

It is also apparent to me that some members on this thread here who have gotten off of their psychiatric drugs seem to have a very unhealthy obsession with media coverage of gun violence and seem to be so over-focused on the correlation of psychiatric drugs and violence to the extent that nothing else matters. I wonder why that is.

 

One would expect such folks who have gone through vicious psychiatric drug withdrawals and gone off their psychiatric drugs to maybe support the new members and help them out, rather than be so self-centered and just pump out these narratives of psych drugs and/or violence ad nauseum.

 

For those of you who are interested in correlation between psych drugs and violence to such an extent that nothing else really matters, why not go and find one of the 10,000 political or other media web sites and make your comments there and leave the rest of us alone and in peace? Why not "educate" people on those sites? Most people who come here are already on a mission to either reduce the number or dosages of the psychiatric drugs they are taking or trying to go off of them completely, and stories about mass shootings and psych drugs don't help such folks.

 

Also, if some of you on this thread are years off the psych drugs and claim to be much better off, why not just move on with your lives and forget the psychiatric drug chapter of your life and look forward to the better moments and better things to come your way?

 

The way it stands right now, some of you on this particular thread will never convince me that you are actually better off without psych drugs. Being several yeas off the psych drugs and getting so angry when someone dares to criticize Whitaker and Breggin is not a sign of a person who has an open mind and is appreciative to different perspectives and troubles people go through. It is a sign of someone who is still very angry and maybe needs to grieve his losses and find a path and a way that lets him move on, rather than lingering in the anger zone, permanently.

 

Awesome post Loraz! Very well expressed.

 

What I see happening here again and again is that newcomers quit their ADs before their benzo and before landing here. Of all their drugs, their AD is the easiest to quit and thus that is what folks like to start with when trying to get clean. It's quitting the AD that exposes them to tolerance withdrawal (not always) and the irrational fear mongering by select members here dissuade them from getting back on the AD to help taper (and then quit the AD again). I change the channel when I see such a member tapering in tolerance withdrawal because the pain was completely avoidable. For those who have never been on an AD before, three extraterrestrial creatures in the tree, after three doses of their AD over three days, convinces them that "some" BB members were right and that the whole attempt to try an AD was a terribe idea. Oh well. It is better to channel surf when you can't change the world.

 

I read a few of the links provided by Benzohno. The conclusions of the studies are not at all clear. Plus, as the writers confess, they are plagued by deep statistical bias (which is more common in studies on psychiatric drugs). The writers caution against interpreting the results without factoring out the bias.

 

I just proved in this thread that Canada is the most violent country in the world and that paroxetine kills. I used statistics! But nobody believes me. Why? Because the reality is that even the dumbest brain is very clever. It knows how to use statistics to validate its superstition.

 

But yes, these studies are to Peter Breggin and his followers, some of whom populate this thread, what a sprinting gazelle is to a hungry lion. They are priceless!

 

I'll read the other links provided by Lapiz today and see if there is anything worth commenting.

 

Note: Psychiatric drugs do not get people high. Psychiatric drugs are not street drugs. (With the exception of opioids, amphetamines and a few more that are used to treat conditions that warrant their use and are highly controlled.)

[Guest [Kp...]]

Statistics say that the stock market is perfectly random.

 

Then why do people invest in the stock market? Was the statistics collated with wrong data? If statistics is right, the stock market should be banned -- it led to mass suicides in 1929 and 2008.

[[Lo...]]

It's apparent to me that some of the members on this thread who have gotten off of psychiatric drugs have not exactly found the "promise land" that they were expecting, which people like Breggin and Whitaker were making them believe they would get to.

 

It is also apparent to me that some members on this thread here who have gotten off of their psychiatric drugs seem to have a very unhealthy obsession with media coverage of gun violence and seem to be so over-focused on the correlation of psychiatric drugs and violence to the extent that nothing else matters. I wonder why that is.

 

One would expect such folks who have gone through vicious psychiatric drug withdrawals and gone off their psychiatric drugs to maybe support the new members and help them out, rather than be so self-centered and just pump out these narratives of psych drugs and/or violence ad nauseum.

 

For those of you who are interested in correlation between psych drugs and violence to such an extent that nothing else really matters, why not go and find one of the 10,000 political or other media web sites and make your comments there and leave the rest of us alone and in peace? Why not "educate" people on those sites? Most people who come here are already on a mission to either reduce the number or dosages of the psychiatric drugs they are taking or trying to go off of them completely, and stories about mass shootings and psych drugs don't help such folks.

 

Also, if some of you on this thread are years off the psych drugs and claim to be much better off, why not just move on with your lives and forget the psychiatric drug chapter of your life and look forward to the better moments and better things to come your way?

 

The way it stands right now, some of you on this particular thread will never convince me that you are actually better off without psych drugs. Being several yeas off the psych drugs and getting so angry when someone dares to criticize Whitaker and Breggin is not a sign of a person who has an open mind and is appreciative to different perspectives and troubles people go through. It is a sign of someone who is still very angry and maybe needs to grieve his losses and find a path and a way that lets him move on, rather than lingering in the anger zone, permanently.

 

Awesome post Loraz! Very well expressed.

 

What I see happening here again and again is that newcomers quit their ADs before their benzo and before landing here. Of all their drugs, their AD is the easiest to quit and thus that is what folks like to start with when trying to get clean. It's quitting the AD that exposes them to tolerance withdrawal (not always) and the irrational fear mongering by select members here dissuade them from getting back on the AD to help taper (and then quit the AD again). I change the channel when I see such a member tapering in tolerance withdrawal because the pain was completely avoidable. For those who have never been on an AD before, three extraterrestrial creatures in the tree, after three doses of their AD over three days, convinces them that "some" BB members were right and that the whole attempt to try an AD was a terribe idea. Oh well. It is better to channel surf when you can't change the world.

 

 

I've seen another scenario here, too. A BB member starts with a benzo without any AD's (at least, none listed in the history). Then, the same member slowly gets into benzo tolerance and sinks knee deep into benzo withdrawal. At this point the member and possibly the doctor start trying all kinds of antidepressants to see if something sticks. Sometimes, a lot of short half life AD's like Paxil or Effexor are tried. The member has horrible reactions because the long-term benzo use has changed the brain chemistry to the point that antidepressants are not tolerated at all. This makes a BB member conclude that antidepressants are bad, so they tell others how bad antidepressants are. But, there have been people here who have lowered their benzo doses and have been able to save themselves from crushing depression by taking a small/sub thereapeutic dose of an AD, or a minimal starting dose of it.

 

But yes, some people in deep benzo withdrawal can become very resistant to antidepressants. The good news is that if this is a treatment resistant depression caused by benzo dependence, it will be very clear after a very short time. A good thing about antidepressants is that the ones that cause a lot of adverse effects in a person do so very early, so it is easy to just stop. Benzos are usually well tolerated from the start, so the problems usually occur later on.

 

I do, however have an utmost respect for the members here who have been forcibly treated with various psych drugs, and it is easy to see why they would not want to take pychiatric medications they were forcibly given. If someone ends up in a psych ward and gets benzos or AD's against their will, it's pretty much a guarantee that they will not like these medications and will stay away from them. When people take meds willingly and voluntarily, it is usually much harder to stop them, as there had been an expectation from moment one that they would actuallly help, or at least, not make things worse. What lapis2 said about cognitivie dissonance is very true. However, there is more to it, and it is the fact that benzo withdrawal becomes a much more pulverizing experience for some folks than the others, and then we end up with a forum with people in different stages of recovery and different levels/textures of suffering, and since it all varies (everyone has something going for them throguh this, and things going against them at the same time), a person with better ground support/family support/financial support/medical support will fare much better than someone who's alone and unsupported. I am pretty sure that people who live in loving and supportive environments can taper off their doses with much more ease than the ones who don't, regardless of the dose and the time on benzos. It is an aspect of the recovery that is not talked much on the forum, and I surely understand why, but when people write their success stories,I bet that there have been at least one or more people in these people's lives who have helped enough, so the member can finally get well and write a success story.

[[La...]]

I can't comment on any of that. I wasn't even on BB when I made my decisions about withdrawing from medications. And I haven't followed others' threads on these issues.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest [Kp...]]

Lorazepam, what a wonderful post! Who knew this discussion would take such beautiful twists and turns.

 

You know, when I was the worst I have ever been in life, for four months last year when I was in benzo tolerance withdrawal, I had thought that it would be the easiest time for me to quit chewing tobacco (an addiction I had nurtured for 25 years) because i rationalized my withdrawals could not get any worse if I quit it! But I could not quit it. Chewing tobacco brought me some relief, however miniscule. My brain refused to let go of that straw in the infinite ocean. Then two weeks after I started my antidepressant, I let go of tobacco. Who wants to chew tobacco when you can breathe air and feel you are alive? And it was then I felt that i was a very strange man once.

 

Two people from BB - to my little brain - will stand out as having suffered the most traumatic withdrawals for the longest period of their lives. Eli1111 and Jennifer Leigh. I have become a bit prejudiced against the latter (or perhaps I always was) because i feel she possibly dramatizes because she is a woman. But Eli spent two weeks in the ward where he was tried on SSRIs (and ECT). I think possibly one month in the ward for ECT itself takes two weeks - I will have to check. But, as you know, two weeks is to little time for an SSRI to work. And if you are trying it in acute then you will not be able to stand start ups: not because they increase your agony exponentially but because you are still alive to register that your pain has increased by 0.00001%.

 

And Eli went on to use mirtazapine as a crutch (second time in his life!). And his wife has been on zyprexa for BP 2 for longer than he can remember. He is not anti psychiatric drugs. He appreciates their role but cautions that they should be avoided.

[[Rx...]]

Lorazepam, what a wonderful post! Who knew this discussion would take such beautiful twists and turns.

 

You know, when I was the worst I have ever been in life, for four months last year when I was in benzo tolerance withdrawal, I had thought that it would be the easiest time for me to quit chewing tobacco (an addiction I had nursed for 25 years) because i rationalized my withdrawals could not get any worse if I quit it! But I could not quit it. Chewing tobacco brought me some relief, however miniscule. My brain refused to let go of that straw in the infinite ocean. Then two weeks after I started my antidepressant, I let go of tobacco. Who wants to chew tobacco when you can breathe air and feel you are alive? And it was then I felt that i was a very strange man once.

 

Two people from BB - to my little brain - will stand out as having suffered the most traumatic withdrawals for the longest period of their lives in BB. Eli1111 and Jennifer Leigh. I have become a bit prejudiced against the latter (or perhaps I always was) because i feel she possibly dramatizes because she is a woman. But Eli spent two weeks in the ward where he was tried on SSRIs (and ECT). I think possibly one month in the ward for ECT itself takes two weeks - I will have to check. But, as you know, two weeks is to little time for an SSRI to work. And if you are trying it in acute then you will not be able to stand start ups: not because they increase your agony exponentially but because you are still alive to register that your pain has increased by 0.00001%.

 

And Eli went on to use mirtazapine as a crutch (second time in his life!). And his wife has been on zyprexa for BP 2 for longer than he can remember. He is not anti psychiatric drugs. He appreciates their role but cautions that they should be avoided.

 

"...possibly dramatizes because she is a woman."?

[Guest [Kp...]]

Rx, that is why I say I am prejudiced. She could be a man and it is just that I am assuming he isn't! Her ID is recoveringfrombenzos and it is just that people associate that BB moniker with a person called Jennifer. We are not allowed to reveal real names in BB... So it has to be a prejudice of mine or somebody's in BB!

[Guest [Le...]]

This thread has wandered wildly off course.

 

Please start tangential topics elsewhere, and let this one return to its original topic, which is about the Quebec City mosque shooter and paroxetine.

 

Thank you.

 

This CBC article, entitled "Quebec City mosque shooter set off by Canada's open stance on refugees", reveals that the 28-year-old was taking Paroxetine when he entered a mosque, killed six men and injured many others. This is the first time I've seen such a detail. I'm not aware of any connection that has been made between the medication and the actions of this man thus far, but based on other incidents that have been discussed around here, it does beg the question, "Was the medication a factor?"

 

See the following excerpt:

 

The morning after the attack was supposed to be Bissonnette's first day back at his job, at Héma-Québec, where he looked for potential donors for the organization, which manages the province's blood supply.

 

Three weeks earlier, Bissonnette received a medical note granting him leave from work because of an anxiety disorder.

 

He was prescribed Paroxetine, he said, to replace the Fluvoxamine pills he was taking, which he didn't think were strong enough.

 

"I couldn't go on, with my job and my studies," he said.

 

Bissonnette had several suicidal episodes since high school, he said, but never told anyone.

 

"I always dealt with my own problems," he said, explaining that he didn't want to worry his parents.

 

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-mosque-shooting-bisonnette-sentencing-1.4618414

[[La...]]

Thanks, LeslieAsh.

[[La...]]

This radio interview took place on Mar. 30, 2018 on the Societe Radio-Canada, the French network of Canada'a national public broadcaster, CBC. The English translation of the interview is "Are antidepressants dangerous for mental health", and it featured an interview with an author and retired professor called Jean-Claude St.-Onge. He has written a book on the pharmaceutical industry called "Tous fous? L'influence de l'industrie pharmaceutique sur la psychiatrie", which means "Is everyone crazy? The influence of the pharmaceutical industry on psychiatry".

 

While Monsieur St.-Onge was not willing or able to weigh in on the specific case of Alexandre Bissonnette, the interview explored the possible connection between SSRI antidepressants and certain types of behaviour, including agitation, disinhibition, akathisia, psychosis, hostility, suicide, aggression, depersonalization and acts of violence, among others. He cited the hundreds of cases in the literature that referred to such behaviours while people were taking SSRIs -- often following a change to a prescription. He mentioned that people metabolize medications differently, and that in some people, there can be a very slow metabolization of the medication or a build-up of serotonin, which causes the serotonin syndrome. He also mentioned the work of Danish doctor, author and researcher Dr. Peter Gotzsche, the head of the Northern Cochrane Collaboration, who has done much work in the area of psychiatric medication and adverse outcomes.

 

I wish I could translate the whole 10-minute interview here, since it's really interesting. If anyone wishes to have a listen, I think this link should be available outside of Canada:

 

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/premiere/emissions/gravel-le-matin/segments/entrevue/65768/antidepresseurs-danger-effet-alexandre-bissonnette-paxil

[[jo...]]

Almost all mass shooting criminals are on some type of psych drug however it is usually kept secret. Big pharma means big profits for the wealthy as does the military machine , all at the cost of human beings.

[[...]]

This is not about pharmaceuticals.

It's about nuclear Nihilism.

The "you must understand" assertion is to blame.

[[be...]]

If weapons in the hands of civilians were to return to 1950s era capabilities, that would certainly make a difference, wouldn’t it.

 

Children exposed to domestic violence are more likely to become shooters. White males are most likely to become mass shooters.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/white-men-have-committed-more-mass-shootings-any-other-group-675602

 

Of course white males are to blame for every problem in the world, and since you personally are the product of a single parent home and you aren't a criminal that means that divorce isn't harmful to children. How silly of me.

 

Semi automatic weapons are hardly new technology, gun ownership in the US is declining and it is pretty well known that children who are raised without a father tend to do poorly. But that goes against The Narrative, therefore it should not be mentioned.

 

http://fathers.com/wp39/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/fatherlessInfographic.pdf

 

Boys are broken. Just put a band aid on it and hope it goes away, right? Kind of like taking a benzo instead of trying something like CBT that might actually address the root of the issue. Sounds like a solid plan.

 

FG:

 

That would be funny if it wasn't so sad. My life, as well as my siblings' lives, would have been far better off without my father. My mom stuck with him because she felt a two parent house would be better. How wrong! I got PTSD from his horrible behavior. And yes he loved guns. So much that when I was 10 years old, he put a large hand gun to my head and told me he was going to blow it off. Yes, I really enjoyed him as a parent. I hate the NRA and don't mind saying so.

[[Fl...]]

FG:

 

That would be funny if it wasn't so sad. My life, as well as my siblings' lives, would have been far better off without my father. My mom stuck with him because she felt a two parent house would be better. How wrong! I got PTSD from his horrible behavior. And yes he loved guns. So much that when I was 10 years old, he put a large hand gun to my head and told me he was going to blow it off. Yes, I really enjoyed him as a parent. I hate the NRA and don't mind saying so.

 

Sometimes people who aren't wearing a seat belt survive horrific car crashes because they were lucky enough to get thrown from the vehicle. Would it be wise to encourage people to refrain from using their seat belts just because a few people beat the odds? Of course not, because we all know that in most cases the odds of surviving a crash are much better when people wear seat belts.

 

Individual cases of "I would have been much better off without my dad at home" and "I was raised by a single mother and I turned out just fine" do not negate the overwhelming evidence that absent dads create a myriad of social problems, one of which being violent behavior.

[[be...]]

I do NOT own a gun nor am I violent. Actually it was my father who told me to take benzos. So there!

[[Er...]]

I stumbled onto this.  It seems like this kind of topic would be very upsetting to suffering people in withdrawal.  : (

[[be...]]

Yep. No more from me.........

[[La...]]

People are free to choose to participate in this discussion or not. I only posted this information about this particular case, because it's directly relevant to what we talk about on these boards. Psychiatric medications have been associated with violent behaviour numerous times in the news, and people have the right to know that.

[[La...]]

Can I also point out that the shooter in this case, i.e. the original topic, comes from a two-parent family? Those parents are deeply upset about what took place. It should also be noted that this man is a twin, and his twin brother has not taken part in any criminal activity that we've been told of.