False Charge: BB Is Full of People with BPD

[[Co...]]

Talk about lack of empathy!!

 

The point of this space is for members to support each other, share ideas, and come to a better understanding of the breadth of how individuals are affected by benzodiazepines. We all come here with our own individual experiences and perspectives. It is not a lack of empathy - just a different perspective, understanding and prejudices (we all have those to varying degrees). Only by expressing those thoughts and ideas will we learn from each other. I have no problem with Scarlet expressing her views - I just don't agree with her (hence, my earlier comments).

[[ma...]]

Colin, let me explain. I found the tone very disturbing because Scarlet talked from the point of view of a health care professional. I think that kind of detachment (I won't call it lack of empathy this time) from health care professionals is one of the reasons why we are here. I also think that if someone wants to post as a health care professional on a forum full of people with huge problems because of the way they were treated by health care professionals, he/she should be very respectful towards the suffering of those people. But maybe this kind of occurrences helps improve the attitude of health care professionals, that would be nice

[[Fi...]]

Scarlett seems to be here because she had her own story of withdrawal.  Her observations were just her observations as a health care professional, something from which she can't really divorce herself, I imagine.

[[Ms...]]

Colin, let me explain. I found the tone very disturbing because Scarlet talked from the point of view of a health care professional. I think that kind of detachment (I won't call it lack of empathy this time) from health care professionals is one of the reasons why we are here. I also think that if someone wants to post as a health care professional on a forum full of people with huge problems because of the way they were treated by health care professionals, he/she should be very respectful towards the suffering of those people. But maybe this kind of occurrences helps improve the attitude of health care professionals, that would be nice

 

They all get that way though.  I can handle an non-empathetic provider.  I'm not there for emotional support, I'm there for sound advice.  Or was.  I can't handle a stupid one, though.  What a lot of us got was both, non empathetic and unintelligent in regards to the med we were prescribed. If my doctor was a douche canoe but right all the time (besides in their head) I'd be happy with that.

[[Co...]]

Colin, let me explain. I found the tone very disturbing because Scarlet talked from the point of view of a health care professional. I think that kind of detachment (I won't call it lack of empathy this time) from health care professionals is one of the reasons why we are here. I also think that if someone wants to post as a health care professional on a forum full of people with huge problems because of the way they were treated by health care professionals, he/she should be very respectful towards the suffering of those people. But maybe this kind of occurrences helps improve the attitude of health care professionals, that would be nice

 

I understand. But we all are here to learn from each other. Different members will have different strengths and weaknesses, and will grow in different ways. The perspective of a particular health professional might be disappointing, but is hardly a shock. To look at it this more positively, the frank admission from Scarlet is an opportunity for you and other members to explain why you feel she is wrong. Try to not take it personally. I know that can be difficult, particularly if you have already suffered from a lack of understanding with your healthcare provider(s). But if changing attitudes is your desired outcome (I'm sure that it is), then engaging in dialogue where your interlocutor is more likely to respond positively must be the better course of action.

[[or...]]

I think we're in for disappointment if we expect empathy from "doctors". And in that category of provider I include PAs, NPs, MDs, psychiatrists and yes, even psychologists.  They all have prescription pads.  At least in my state they do. They genuinely want to do something to make us feel better . . . and that's usually prescribing a pill. It would be nice if they were empathetic,  but that's not their job. And it's certainly not their training. For better or worse, prescribing drugs is their raison d'etre.

 

So many people here, I've noticed, are disappointed that they don't get understanding or empathy from their providers -- the people who put them on their drugs. I get it . . . I've been disappointed too. Why, oh why, I asked myself, didn't my NP, who prescribed my benzo for me, have a smidgen of empathy for the misery of my withdrawal? Because that's not her job. (Well, she could have believed me, or informed herself ahead of time about the drugs she prescribes, but those are other issues).

 

You know, there's an old Meat Loaf song that goes like this:

 

"You're looking for a ruby in a mountain of rocks,

"But there ain't no Coupe de Ville hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box."

 

In other words . . . yeah, you get it. Don't expect what a provider isn't trained to provide.

 

What I came to realize is that if I wanted empathy, to air my feelings, to be understood, I needed to seek out a psychotherapist. Someone who does not have a prescription pad. Someone who is trained to listen. Because that's what therapists do. In the old pre-drug days, that's what psychiatrists did. They listened. Alas, no more.

 

So, to help myself, I found a psychotherapist. An LCSW. She has several degrees and spent a couple of years at the Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy Study Center in NY. I am thoroughly pleased with her credentials. Moreover we "clicked". She's trained to listen, to talk, to ask questions, to call BS on me if necessary, to help me examine my feelings and expectations. To help me grow. I couldn't have made it through my taper without her. Most of all, she has empathy. And if I had found myself in the office of a therapist who clearly had none, no matter how wonderful her credentials, I wouldn't have stayed. (Oh, and in my state psychotherapists cannot prescribe drugs).

 

Anyhow, just my two cents' worth. I'm sure some people have psychiatrists with empathy, or NPs who listen, but those are not the majority of stories I'm hearing on here.

 

Again, just my experience. Hope it helps someone.

 

Katz

 

 

 

 

[[Fi...]]

I swear by the therapist I went to as well.  She really helped me hang onto myself even though she'd never dealt with somebody in quite my position before.  And Oregonkatz, since you told me once you were moving to my town, I'm wondering if there's any chance we had/have the same wonderful person?

[[be...]]

I think things coming out like thishttp://www.modernmedicine.com/sites/default/files/images/digital/PSY/psy0418_ezine.pdf *should* help professionals question themselves and be less defensive.

 

Interesting. A correction to the article though: BB does not receive 250,000 hits per month. 'Hits' is a technical term, and refers to the number of files and resources referenced to create/display a webpage (typically, many 'hits' for each webpage). I don't have those figures to to hand, by it will be in the tens of millions range per month. But 'hits' is a misleading term. As a single webpage might be returned with just a couple of hits, or with scores of hits (depend upon the site and the individual webpage). What the article writer probably means to indicate is the number of 'page impressions' (page views). I don't have those figures to hand for the entire BB website, but in reality, in December 2017 (according to the notes, the month used for the article*), there were 3,249,912 page impressions of the forum alone (and that was a comparatively quiet month - the total for 2017 (the forum alone) was 46,627,350).

 

* The article writer made use of a third party website (SimilarWeb. Benzodiazepines; 2017. https://www.similarweb.com/website/benzobuddies.org#referrals. Accessed December 13, 2017.) which 'estimates' the number of 'hits'. Since they have no access to any of our data (except what appears publicly at the foot of the forum), they are not expected to be remotely accurate.

 

Colin.

 

I read in a thread on SA.org that said B.B. gets that many hits in a month. Just sayin’

[[or...]]

I swear by the therapist I went to as well.  She really helped me hang onto myself even though she'd never dealt with somebody in quite my position before.  And Oregonkatz, since you told me once you were moving to my town, I'm wondering if there's any chance we had/have the same wonderful person?

 

Could be, FJ. 

 

The really great thing (among other great things) about her was that even though she knew nothing about benzos or benzo w/d, she believed me, and she learned. I gave her the Ashton Manual and she actually read it. She was the one who helped me devise a taper plan when my NP sat on her hands and said it was just silly, that I wasn't having withdrawals, that it was all anxiety, and why in hell don't you let me prescribe Lexapro? (To be fair the NP gave me all the valium I needed).

 

This is such an awful process, we really do need someone in our corner.

 

I can't say enough good things about psychotherapists. I'm glad you had a good one, too, FJ.

 

Katz

 

 

[[Fi...]]

Yes, what you said. She listened to me and she  believed me. One thing that helped me is that she already knew me as a writer and had read some of my books, so I was able to go into it with her ready to take me seriously as a solid person. With other folks where I sought help I felt like I was presumed to be a nutcase. It didn't help that doctors I'd been seeing for years retired and I felt like I had to start over.

 

I'm glad you found good help too. You must have started your taper before you moved here though right? Maybe we should take it as good news that there may be more than one good therapist out there, though!

[[Rx...]]

There is a saying, "Kindness is the greatest wisdom." - Unknown  I so love it.

[[be...]]

[[Co...]]

 

Colin.

 

I read in a thread on SA.org that said B.B. gets that many hits in a month. Just sayin’

 

Hi benzogirl.

 

I don't follow. Please rephrase.

 

Link?

[Guest [Kp...]]

 

Why does it take us an eternity to realize that the philosophers were right? Why is it so hard to understand that wisdom is useless without compassion? Why did it take Jesus the last supper to realize that his friends were also his worst enemies? And why is it that when he lamented, on the crucifix, that we should be suspicious of our best friend, reason, people wondered since when were a dying man's words to be taken seriously?

[Guest [Kp...]]

I am sorry. I have not read the thread. I was responding to bg's posted image and not the contents of the thread.

[[be...]]

 

Colin.

 

I read in a thread on SA.org that said B.B. gets that many hits in a month. Just sayin’

 

Hi benzogirl.

 

I don't follow. Please rephrase.

 

Link?

 

Not sure if I remember that link. I’ll look when I get a chance.

 

It was a link within a link. It was saying something like B.B. doesn’t know that much about benzo withdrawals because many people on B.B. give bad advice. But it said it was an option. This must have been an old sticky thread because they said TRAP was good.

[[Co...]]

 

Colin.

 

I read in a thread on SA.org that said B.B. gets that many hits in a month. Just sayin’

 

Hi benzogirl.

 

I don't follow. Please rephrase.

 

Link?

 

Not sure if I remember that link. I’ll look when I get a chance.

 

It was a link within a link. It was saying something like B.B. doesn’t know that much about benzo withdrawals because many people on B.B. give bad advice. But it said it was an option. This must have been an old sticky thread because they said TRAP was good.

 

I have no idea what the forum content was like at Trap, but Ross, the owner of the site, was/is a good man. On that basis, I assume that their forum was a good experience for its members. Having said that, what I do know is that TRAP operated a top-down form of support (from moderator to member). Conversely, BB is organised as a peer support environment. I think BB always operated differently from all the other large benzo support forums (there were at least four other running at the same time as BB) and we are now the only large group left. I think this is because we operate in a way that is best for both members and team members (I understand that burnout was a common problem for team members at TRAP). Besides, I do not pretend to have all the answers; I'm sure that our moderators and admins feel similarly. Peer support is the proper way to do this. I expect the vast majority of our members also appreciate the opportunity to share their thoughts and experiences as being just as valid as anyone from the team or other, longer term members.

[[Sc...]]

I have a psych nurse friend who is convinced that online forums, such as BB, are full of people with borderline personality disorders implying that they (the forums) should be avoided.  She is a professor of nursing at a highly prestigious university's graduate school of nursing and has a Post Masters in Psych-Mental Health Nursing.  She teaches graduate and doctoral students in that same program.

 

She has also made statements such as, "You may need to be on psych meds the rest of your life like a diabetic needs insulin."  As we know, these are statements that those in the uninformed medical community make when they are not educated about the risks of psych meds, having drunk the Kool-Aid of Big Pharma.

 

Is there any information I can use to counter this claim of "forums are full of people with BPD"?

 

People like that psych nurse is the one with the mental illness. She studies and advertises a pseudoscience that claims to read minds and that in itself is insane.

[[be...]]

 

Colin.

 

I read in a thread on SA.org that said B.B. gets that many hits in a month. Just sayin’

 

Hi benzogirl.

 

I don't follow. Please rephrase.

 

Link?

 

Not sure if I remember that link. I’ll look when I get a chance.

 

It was a link within a link. It was saying something like B.B. doesn’t know that much about benzo withdrawals because many people on B.B. give bad advice. But it said it was an option. This must have been an old sticky thread because they said TRAP was good.

 

I have no idea what the forum content was like at Trap, but Ross, the owner of the site, was/is a good man. On that basis, I assume that their forum was a good experience for its members. Having said that, what I do know is that TRAP operated a top-down form of support (from moderator to member). Conversely, BB is organised as a peer support environment. I think BB always operated differently from all the other large benzo support forums (there were at least four other running at the same time as BB) and we are now the only large group left. I think this is because we operate in a way that is best for both members and team members (I understand that burnout was a common problem for team members at TRAP). Besides, I do not pretend to have all the answers; I'm sure that our moderators and admins feel similarly. Peer support is the proper way to do this. I expect the vast majority of our members also appreciate the opportunity to share their thoughts and experiences as being just as valid as anyone from the team or other, longer term members.

 

I get that Colin:

 

I love this site. I did not like that post but held my tongue as once I suggested that someone who was in big trouble drug wise may want to see a psych. I got blasted for that. I am just the messenger. I think many people here belong to both sites. I very rarely go on there myself, as I think we know more about benzos then SA's section on the topic. There are other posts that applaud BB. So we get support here, that's the goal. Some posts may not be overly helpful while most are. Take what you want and leave the rest behind.

[[ca...]]

I am a health professional and I agree that it's better for patients to be informed and ask questions. The problem I have is when someone who I haven't even assessed yet demands to know if I will provide such-and-such treatment and I can't even answer that because I have not met them. Happens a lot.

 

Nurses in the US can be Nurse Practitioners and do many of the same things doctors do including prescribing.

 

I'm a psychotherapist. So far, I haven't seen anyone who looks obviously like a borderline personality here. Probably the moderators crack down on dysfunctional behavior and those people wouldn't hang around long.

 

But let me tell you what I have seen: I've been a substance abuse counselor and some people here engage in thought processes that are very familiar to me from working with addicts who relapse. Here are some examples, not direct quotes:

"Oh my god I can't stand this! [withdrawal] Is it worth it?! I feel like I'm going to die!"

"I didn't get out of bed for 7 months"

People who've been substance abuse counselors know that some of these people are setting themselves up for a relapse. They are people with low pain tolerance and poor coping skills who often don't reach out for help, who isolate themselves from friends, who avoid hobbies and jobs. They are seeking to justify their relapse by complaining about the pain and how unbearable life is. Then when they relapse they claim they had no choice because recovery was too difficult. Others are simply attention seeking, perhaps thinking if they don't make their problems seem like a crisis no one will respond. I can tell who these people are because a week later after getting some feedback they will miraculously be feeling a lot better.

I have a suspicion many people here may have gotten on benzos because they were detoxing from booze; it's one of the few legitimate reasons for benzos. Alcohol and drugs fry the brain and I think this could explain why some people are having more difficulty with withdrawal than others. Perhaps some don't want to admit they were in bad shape with booze, drugs or both before they ever did benzos.

 

You lost me Scarlet.  I of course cannot speak for everyone on this forum. I will speak for myself and I will relate what I have learned from those who have suffered as I have. Until this I was drug free and alcohol free! If you read my brief synopsis on how I got there, it will save me a great deal of time of not repeating myself about my journey. Believe me, I sought help from my physician and got nothing except to prescribe me a higher dose. I declined and went through a very uncomfortable taper. No doctor told me how to get off of this. From various web sites like this, I realized that you need to slowly taper off. I initially stopped taking this medication cold turkey. It almost killed me! Again, this medical system failed to inform or had no clue about the dangers of just stopping. I have read similar experiences on this message board.

 

What puzzles me from your remarks is how in the world someone in your professional position hasn't a clue about the effects that benzodiazepines have on the CNS. Here is the problem! If you don't know what it does, how can you possibly know how to treat it? You, in my opinion have insulted victims of our failing medical system. You are part of the problem when you say that people that complain about their pain and suffering have low coping skills or low pain tolerance. You are clueless and you have the audacity to judge people who were made sick by used car salesmen in white coats  Only those that have gone through this know the intensity of the pain and the suffering this has caused. It is shameful that you come on here with your lack of knowledge and make your arrogant, judgmental comments. 

 

[[Ha...]]

 

To look at it this more positively, the frank admission from Scarlet is an opportunity for you and other members to explain why you feel she is wrong. Try to not take it personally. I know that can be difficult, particularly if you have already suffered from a lack of understanding with your healthcare provider(s). But if changing attitudes is your desired outcome (I'm sure that it is), then engaging in dialogue where your interlocutor is more likely to respond positively must be the better course of action.

Thanks for your wise words Colin!  As you say, many of us feel misunderstood and judged by (some) health care providers, so it is so easy for us to take things personally. I was guilty of this only the other day. I went to a new doctor for an unrelated medical issue but when asked if I was taking any medication I answered honestly (normally I've learned not to disclose, but happy with my reduction progress I felt I had nothing to lose). Her body language was pretty typical of my past (bad) experiences where I had been wrongly accused of being a "drug addict". I guess I felt immediately judged (in reality I had  no idea what was going through her mind, I just jumped to conclusions), so I felt I had been "hard done by", and once again misunderstood. On reflection, for all I know, she may have simply felt overwhelmed, or was reflecting on some of her own bad past experiences, who knows? But if we truly want to bridge the gap of misunderstandings, we need to be open to discussion, we need to truly put ourselves in the other person's "shoes" and truly listen to their perspective. It would be good if Scarlet felt safe enough to respond, we may just all benefit.  Harmonee

PS I never thanked you for fixing my issue logging in from work; so here is a belated huge thank you  Colin!! 

[[Ca...]]

 

To look at it this more positively, the frank admission from Scarlet is an opportunity for you and other members to explain why you feel she is wrong. Try to not take it personally. I know that can be difficult, particularly if you have already suffered from a lack of understanding with your healthcare provider(s). But if changing attitudes is your desired outcome (I'm sure that it is), then engaging in dialogue where your interlocutor is more likely to respond positively must be the better course of action.

Thanks for your wise words Colin!  As you say, many of us feel misunderstood and judged by (some) health care providers, so it is so easy for us to take things personally. I was guilty of this only the other day. I went to a new doctor for an unrelated medical issue but when asked if I was taking any medication I answered honestly (normally I've learned not to disclose, but happy with my reduction progress I felt I had nothing to lose). Her body language was pretty typical of my past (bad) experiences where I had been wrongly accused of being a "drug addict". I guess I felt immediately judged (in reality I had  no idea what was going through her mind, I just jumped to conclusions), so I felt I had been "hard done by", and once again misunderstood. On reflection, for all I know, she may have simply felt overwhelmed, or was reflecting on some of her own bad past experiences, who knows? But if we truly want to bridge the gap of misunderstandings, we need to be open to discussion, we need to truly put ourselves in the other person's "shoes" and truly listen to their perspective. It would be good if Scarlet felt safe enough to respond, we may just all benefit.  Harmonee

PS I never thanked you for fixing my issue logging in from work; so here is a belated huge thank you  Colin!! 

Wow Harmonee, That jumped out at me..!!

I dont want to throw the thread off track... But I have been in this situation a bit of late...

I wonder if I dont take things too personally or read the worst into everything..  Defensive...

I have had a lot of new mental SX at this low dose, and wonder if WD is enhancing these things...

Trouble is that there IS real reluctance in this situation to accept BWS  as real... "Just stop the meds and be tough for a few weeks"..!!

But im wondering if im in defence ALL the time due to this, and cant see it..

 

Be Well...

 

[[ma...]]

she may have simply felt overwhelmed, or was reflecting on some of her own bad past experiences, who knows? But if we truly want to bridge the gap of misunderstandings, we need to be open to discussion, we need to truly put ourselves in the other person's "shoes" and truly listen to their perspective. It would be good if Scarlet felt safe enough to respond, we may just all benefit.  Harmonee

 

I understand but I don't think it's fair to ask this from people that are suffering. It would be if it were a balanced relationship, but it isn't: health care professionals may have their professional pride at stake but we have our health!

 

People that look for help from health care professionals are vulnerable (and often pay a lot of money which it's often difficult for them). I think they should do what is needed to solve their problems even if it includes not disclosing the truth. And they certainly have no obligation to bridge the gap.

 

Another reason is that it wouldn't change anything. Health care professionals, by default, just want to classify you in some way and then push some kind of medication (or therapy if they are therapists). That's what they were trained to do. They won't change. Quoting Max Planck: "a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it".

[[Ms...]]

 

Another reason is that it wouldn't change anything. Health care professionals, by default, just want to classify you in some way and then push some kind of medication (or therapy if they are therapists). That's what they were trained to do. They won't change. Quoting Max Planck: "a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it".

 

The one thing that seems to be constant is change.  I do think the current (failing) paradigm can be shifted for sure.  Not anti- versus pro- because I think that's ineffective but meeting professionals in reality and letting facts sort behavior.

 

I understand there are heavily financed third parties with ridiculous amounts of influence attempting to ensure facts don't get to be the decider, but their own altered facts, but they've lost before, and will again, they adapt and find a way to live in (and often ruin) the new system too.  Just an ongoing thing forever I'd imagine.  I think people outside of medicine, and some in, most mostly outside, are much more skeptical than they've ever been.  Medicine now is like politicians around Nixon.

[[Ru...]]

So your friend is now on Gabapentin to help with sleep. After the gabapentin she will probably go on something else and then the merry go round of psychotropics begin.

 

I have a nasty feeling that she may eat her words...and a lot of nasty chemicals too.

 

But what the hell do I know? I'm a bipolar, manic depressive malingerer with a personality disorder according to my docotrs notes!!!