CONQUERING HEAVY ABUSE CLUB (CHAC?)

[[Lo...]]

Thanks, MTFan. Your words of encouragement keep me from descending into suicidal ideation spiral. That is by far the worst symptom for me. I guess I've always worried about my heart. That's probably what motivated me to go on benzos. Now, I've got occasional tachycardia that I have to control with a beta blocker.  Funnny how things just slap you back in the face.

[[MT...]]

Yep, LF2015, this is brutal. I've got the palpitations and tachycardia but went off my heart meds last year since my heart rate and bp would go high then low. I find when my heart is racing I tend to feel more anxious--not that the anxiety is necessarily driving it. I think crud is released in our blood streams when we're tachy.

[[Lo...]]

I am going to see a pdoc in a couple of weeks and am wondering if I should tell him everything. If I do, then there's a chance he may not prescribe anything, but if I am not completely honest, I may not get the proper treatment as he may not understand the situation. Especially now with DEA and benzos being so tightly controlled, I am really scared one way or the other.

 

I was completely honest with my GP, but then he kept saying "oh, you're a smart guy. I don't think you're addicted, etc. etc". He now acts like that conversation never happened and I barely got some 10mg valium from him. Highly doubt I'll get a refill.

 

It's kind of hard when you screw up and then decide to clean up and look for meds (valium in my case) that will help me wean off of Ativan. Then I put myself in a Dr. shopper situation. Horrible. If there were a proper rehab for benzos, I'd go in a heartbeat.

 

I still feel like being totally honest with the guy. I was looking at rehabs, etc. but not one of them seem to be equiiped to deal with  benzo addiction.

[[MT...]]

LF2015, I think being honest, without being dogmatic, is the way to go. If you express your earnest desire to taper off, and describe what you've been doing and why, that you're dealing with wd, and so on, there's a chance the pdoc will be supportive and helpful. If he/she isn't it seems like arguing makes it worse. In that case you can say, "I understand your point of view. Would you be willing to continue to prescribe the valium as I work towards decreasing the dose?"

 

A trick I use is that I never expect my brain to come through during an appointment so I prepare ahead of time. I create a word document that has my name, date of birth, date, the doc's name, a list of all of my meds and dosages, my current symptoms, what I've been doing to help myself, my questions, and a list of prescriptions needed (and to what pharmacy). I organize it so it's easy to read and they can stick it in the chart. I have a copy for both of us so I can refer to my copy during the appt. and give them the other copy. This way if my brain short during the appt. I can go by what's on the paper. I hope this helps.

[[Lo...]]

How do you tell a seizure from the other sxs? Sometimes in March, I was substituting valium for Ativan to quickly and got this nasty electric shock feeling in my body and felt like I couldn't move. Went and updosed on A and gulped down a beta bliocker in panic. Then it went away. I was shaking, but it was scary as hell...

[[MT...]]

So many BB describe that electric shock thing that I think when that's going on you can know it's not a seizure.

 

When I used to see people seize regularly (I worked as a nurse) the movements looked more general. What we get in wd is more individual muscles twitching across our bodies. Also, after a seizure there's a period of time when folks are out of it. I'm no expert but those are my thoughts. I remember thinking I was seizing my first time off because I shook so violently but it was just different. All my muscles were going nuts. It passes. This time I had muscle spasms but not twitches for a couple of months. They don't happen anymore. I think exercise helped too. At the time I thought it was deconditioning. That may have been part of it but not most.

[[on...]]

I've had a number of problems that weren't "typical" withdrawal symptoms.  I just posted on another page, but the toes in my right foot have spasms 100% of the time and move as if they were possessed - sorry for this description but I have to describe it some how.  They never stop.  My toes are like miniature snakes that don't stop  :'(  I have actually developed sores on my toes because they won't stop rubbing against each other.

 

Because it inhibits me and I have trouble wearing shoes right now my doc is ordering neurological tests just to rule out anything more serious.  Everyone I talk to thinks it's my benzo use.  It came on over a year after I started cutting.  Bizarre but I think it's part of the benzo-wild ride we are all on.

 

LF I didn't quote you but I loved your comment below about you telling your doctor you had problems and he told you you were fine because 'you're a smart person and not addicted.'  For 7 years I had a shrink and I endlessly mentioned that I was scared.  I just have to laugh now - he always told me, like your doc did, that I was too smart to be addicted and since I knew so much about it (I didn't know that much) that I wouldn't allow myself to be addicted. 

 

I guess he didn't figure that "someone smart" can manipulate their own doctor!    A wild ride indeed.  Hang in there!

 

[[MT...]]

I'm sorry you're dealing with that misery one year. It sounds super distracting too. It sounds like your doc is being thorough. Hang in there.

[[Lo...]]

I've had a number of problems that weren't "typical" withdrawal symptoms.  I just posted on another page, but the toes in my right foot have spasms 100% of the time and move as if they were possessed - sorry for this description but I have to describe it some how.  They never stop.  My toes are like miniature snakes that don't stop  :'(  I have actually developed sores on my toes because they won't stop rubbing against each other.

 

Because it inhibits me and I have trouble wearing shoes right now my doc is ordering neurological tests just to rule out anything more serious.  Everyone I talk to thinks it's my benzo use.  It came on over a year after I started cutting.  Bizarre but I think it's part of the benzo-wild ride we are all on.

 

LF I didn't quote you but I loved your comment below about you telling your doctor you had problems and he told you you were fine because 'you're a smart person and not addicted.'  For 7 years I had a shrink and I endlessly mentioned that I was scared.  I just have to laugh now - he always told me, like your doc did, that I was too smart to be addicted and since I knew so much about it (I didn't know that much) that I wouldn't allow myself to be addicted. 

 

I guess he didn't figure that "someone smart" can manipulate their own doctor!    A wild ride indeed.  Hang in there!

 

One Year, I am amazed you're alive after such high doses. You must have tremendous willpower

(I was never exactly glass is half full kind of guy) to have made it. How in the world did you cope?

 

My false sense of security came from thinking that Lorazepam wasn't nearly as strong. When I was younger, I was prescribed a really weak benzo (Prazepam) for GI issues (gastritis). Used it short-term, stopped it CT. NO problems. Used some serax in the 90's very judiciously. Stopped it no problem. Used Xanax very short term in 2001-2002. Stopped it. no problem.

 

But then a lot of life stresses happened, and I got myself hooked on Lorazepam, foolishly thinking 0.5mg is a low dose. As the stresses piled up, I kept taking, and since most rebound sxs were identical to what I had in first place w/o benzos, I didn't connect 2 + 2. My now fired GP also said, "ah, you're just an anxious person". So he upped the dose. Then, the panic attacks and ER trips happened, and I got to 3.5mg ativan at one point, courtesy of getting 2mg ativan at the ER. Yuck!

 

I am feeling good that I've finally broken the 2mg/day ativan barrier. But the fact that I'm still mostly agoraphobic (never had that problem before) and that I can't go back to work is killing me. The people are nice and I miss the place.

 

Valium is definitely helping, but it's such a slow process and I am not a millionaire.

 

Now, I am at the crossroads and meeting a new pdoc in a week or so. Don't think he will support me being on 2 benzos, so it will either come down to klonopin or valium. I feel like a switch to K would make me more work-functional, but I am scared of K taper....

But another part of me is thinking, forget the job and just survive and continue substituting your Ativan with Valium no matter how long it takes...

 

 

 

 

 

[[Fi...]]

"We've ALL made mistakes. Every single one of us. Even the folks who say they're complete "accidental addicts" had to turn off some part of their brain to not pick up any red flags about benzos."

 

I would like to respectfully resist accepting this, MTfan.  I did not make any "mistakes." I never turned off any part of my brain.  I religiously adhered to my doc's admonition to not take Xanax more than two or three times a week and actually kept charts documenting every tab or half tab I ever took.  The first time my next doctor mentioned her concern with my use of Xanax, literally as I was going out the door, that was the night I cold turkeyed.

 

I think there are many people on this board who can claim complete adherence to doctors orders and have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.  I'm not saying that people who do have mixed feelings about their own part in accepting prescriptions for these drugs ought to sit around beating themselves up about it, but people who feel that way shouldn't try to comfort themselves by insisting other people did the same thing.

[[on...]]

I think there are many people on this board who can claim complete adherence to doctors orders and have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.  I'm not saying that people who do have mixed feelings about their own part in accepting prescriptions for these drugs ought to sit around beating themselves up about it, but people who feel that way shouldn't try to comfort themselves by insisting other people did the same thing.

 

I just think this needs to be a safe place for all of us to share our backgrounds without criticism.  Why do we need to even touch on whether we need to feel guilt or not?  I've made huge mistakes but got started by a doc who told me benzos were the greatest thing - and far better than barbiturates.  I think how I got addicted needs to be a part of my recovery. 

 

I went off the deep end when a family member of mine was the victim of a horrific crime.  I lost my career and our family's house.  My doc upped my dose to of xanax from 6 mg. to 8 mg. a day and told me that I had nothing to worry about.  I only saw my doc yearly.  We never talked on the phone.  He was calling in my scripts without any supervision by him.  He just kept writing scripts and telling me I was fine as my family member still suffers from this crime.  Yea, this is a different path and I have different things I need to deal with that others don't. 

 

LF and I do have a similar background in that our docs didn't warn us about benzos and probably weren't very knowledgeable about benzos.  I feel it's vital for us to safely be able to share our experiences so we can share in our recovery.  We all have different needs and support for recovery.

 

At the local NA meeting I can score crack or meth by people who think their path is entirely justified and normal.  I don't think less of them or need to say I'm better or less culpable than them because of how they got addicted.  I don't think anyone needs to judge them or quantify their level of culpability in their addiction.  It's just the path they came on.

 

I don't think anyone here, or in the "accidental addict" thread is making excuses.  LF isn't excusing behavior.  We are just seeking others who have walked similar paths to share things without judgement or measure of our culpability.  It's part of recovery and we are all different.

 

That difference in us is what makes this BB so great.  We can share the walk on the paths of others without judgement.

[[Fi...]]

Paul--I don't disagree with a single thing you say.  I think everybody here has been victimized by their doctors.  Coming through this, I have so much more compassion for anybody addicted to anything who is trying to get off.  I feel like if withdrawal has been difficult for me and I have a nice situation in life, how much harder must it be for people who've suffered tragedies such as yours or who have trouble with cravings they have to resist.

 

I was just rubbed the wrong way by MTfan's assertion that we must all accept blame.  I just won't, that's all, and I won't let her speak for me.  But please be assured I am not sitting in judgment of whatever choices others have made that got them to this point.  I don't even worry about trying to make sure nobody slaps me with the label of "addict."  My body's going through the same process no matter what anybody calls it, so there's been no percentage for me in trying to distance myself from what people refer to as "true addicts" or junkies.  Since I came off of Oxycodone too, I've had a close up look at how people addicted to opioids are treated.

 

To get well, each of us has to start with where we are now.  To the extent that each person has to deal with their own history and try to learn from it yes, absolutely, this is a good thing, but comparing "guilt" or trying to insist that everyone accept blame they don't deserve?  What good does that do anybody?

 

I feel terrible for you not just that you had this tragedy, but that your doc let you take this much Xanax.  I think it's criminal.  I admire you for trying to get well and wish you the very best in trying to heal. 

[[on...]]

LF, I am also struggling with balancing my need to find work and dealing with this.  This fight has really kept me from working except for a period when my cuts weren't very big.  I also feel like I'm having to choose whether to work or keep handling my taper which really requires all my effort. 

 

I'm scared but I decided to tell my shrink I need to level off where I am and get my feet back on the ground for a few months.  I know this will extend the hard times but I've got to work and parent.  Someday I may regret this.  Right now I feel helpless to do anything else so my plan has changed.  My shrink also opposed this - but I really pushed.  I think I need it for now.

 

Thanks for the comment about my use.  It really made me feel better because I am truly just lucky to be here.  Nothin' like taking a handfull of xanax along with some adderol or ritalin to get through the day!    It was off to the races on many days with this combo.  The problem is I'm not sure where I went every day!

 

Keep up the progress  and thanks.  Hope my decision to stop the taper a few months and settle down is the right one.  Time will tell. 

 

[[on...]]

But please be assured I am not sitting in judgment of whatever choices others have made that got them to this point.  I don't even worry about trying to make sure nobody slaps me with the label of "addict."  My body's going through the same process no matter what anybody calls it, so there's been no percentage for me in trying to distance myself from what people refer to as "true addicts" or junkies.  Since I came off of Oxycodone too, I've had a close up look at how people addicted to opioids are treated.

 

Got it.  Take care and keep it up. 

[[Ch...]]

I've had a number of problems that weren't "typical" withdrawal symptoms.  I just posted on another page, but the toes in my right foot have spasms 100% of the time and move as if they were possessed - sorry for this description but I have to describe it some how.  They never stop.  My toes are like miniature snakes that don't stop  :'(  I have actually developed sores on my toes because they won't stop rubbing against each other.

 

Because it inhibits me and I have trouble wearing shoes right now my doc is ordering neurological tests just to rule out anything more serious.  Everyone I talk to thinks it's my benzo use.  It came on over a year after I started cutting.  Bizarre but I think it's part of the benzo-wild ride we are all on.

 

LF I didn't quote you but I loved your comment below about you telling your doctor you had problems and he told you you were fine because 'you're a smart person and not addicted.'  For 7 years I had a shrink and I endlessly mentioned that I was scared.  I just have to laugh now - he always told me, like your doc did, that I was too smart to be addicted and since I knew so much about it (I didn't know that much) that I wouldn't allow myself to be addicted. 

 

I guess he didn't figure that "someone smart" can manipulate their own doctor!    A wild ride indeed.  Hang in there!

 

I've had problems with toes rubbing (unrelated to benzos) and have tried toe socks…each toe is separated with its own spot, like mittens.

Amazon has tons of them…I've tried the injinji's, which I think are the original toe socks.

[[on...]]

Thanks.  I'm gonna log on and shop.  I've seen plastic-like devices that distance runners put on their feet to keep their toes separate.  They are used to prevent toe injuries and the rubbing of the toes that distance runners deal with.  I didn't buy them because they are fairly hard and I didn't think I could wear them all day. 

 

And the thought of toe socks somehow seems very comforting.  I can let my toes go wild and not worry about them!  I appreciate it.

[[Lo...]]

Yes, I do not really care about labels anymore, etc. Like FinallyJoining63 said, we're all in a same boat. One thing that bugs me that I didn't recognize (and I am not the only one in that respect by any means) is how even initial PRN use of benzos has actually kept slowly but surely lowering my overall stress threshold. It is so subtle over time, that it is hard to notice. If I had a more stress-free life over the last few years, I'd probably pick up on it, but it just snuck up on me. And the sxs in the beginning were totally like my original anxiety & depression sxs. I wasn't getting the really weird ones until much later on when I ended up on a higher dose.

 

 

 

[[on...]]

I agree about benzos lowering stress threshold for me.  There are times I wonder if I'll be able to do the things I used to do.  I knew I was hooked, and like FJ63 I also had home-made charts about my dosing.  The problem was I probably started 30 charts and always failed.  I also have over 120 pages of journal writing from when I originally cut from lots of xanax in the two months before going to the hospital.  It's an amazing read.  There are things like comments I wrote at 3:00 a.m. describing how I could hear everyone in the house breathing from their different rooms, and it being very loud.  Notes about talking to my cats in the night about w/d when everyone was asleep.  Hopefully it will be helpful for me someday.

 

I really need a laugh today so here it is. For ten years I spoke throughout my state to people in the same profession as I am about substance abuse.  I am not a professional in that field, but was trained to give 2-3 hour speeches to professionals and students by the agency that licenses me.  They even had me listed as a public speaker on the subject for years.  I gave this series of speeches all over my state!

 

So, I'm talking to groups of professionals and students around my state about street drugs as I was taking xanax to give the speech, and keeping the bottle in my pocket!  I am personally terrified of many street drugs because I fear I would fall to them, and as part of my profession I've spent a good amount of time with prisoners who had addiction issues with street drugs.  Meanwhile I would hide my xanax under the front seat of my car as I would drive into the prison parking lots!

 

I was soooo soooo blind!  I just have to :laugh: about it now.

[[Fi...]]

Great story, Paul.  I agree, Xanax is insidious.  I had no idea I was teaching my brain to not allow me to sleep by taking a half tab every other night or so.  When I cold turkeyed, I wasn't even sure just how addicted I'd be, or if at all.  All I knew was that I was eight months off Oxycodone and still not getting well, so I thought it was worth a try.  Here I am 20 months later, still not 100% healed.  But I sleep through the night every single night which is amazing to me, seeing as how the Xanax had me thinking I was just a person who would invariably be awake at 3:00 am and pace the house.

[[Lo...]]

Great stories guys. I didn't know how insidious Lorazepam was, too. I thought by not taking every day and taking only 0.5mg, I'd be ok. I maintained a nice swimming regimen for 2 years while taking it (unable to do it now). There were hints and symptoms, but didn't recognize them as wd. I was drinking coffee even (probably to counter the loraz sedation in the morning).

 

My story is similar as I was also afraid of succumbing to street drugs and since I've always trudged along with mild/moderate depression, I thought anything that'd give me a high would get me addicted as I'd always been content but not truly happy. Always walking that line between elation and despair. I probably got in trouble with first loraz pill I took, where it made me feel calm like I haven't been in years. There wasn't a high or anything, it just made me feel normal.

 

When I took vicodin for medical reasons (wisdom teeth extractions, etc), I'd take them, and really liked the nice mellow high from them. But that euphoric feeling scared me, so I'd take them for the shortest possible time since I was too scared to get addicted. Yet, I had a total blind spot to benzos. Funny how that works, huh?

 

The irony of it is, I knew about Xanax and wouldn't take it because of its strength. Thought Lorazepam was just one of those run-of-the mill intermediate acting benzos. When I read the equivalent charts and realized that lorazepam was half as potent as Xanax, I freaked out big time. But then, I was on a big dose, and I was panicking big time.

[[Lo...]]

Actually, starting to feel better now that I've dropped ativan even a bit lower. I'm no longer ideating a lot. I've switched into survival mode, and am starting to think a touch more clearly. Now, the worries are more like: I'll run out of money, I'll run out of meds, I'll end up in psych ward and be CT'd against my will, I'll lose everything. But at least, I'm starting to chose living over checking out this time. Been listening to a lot of sad songs and crying a lot. But those songs got me through rough times before, and I hope they could again. The TV distraction seems to be of limited worth. Too many shows that are more aggravating then helping.

 

Also, I am trying to be useful here. If I can make someone's life a little better and/or give a good advice, it gives me a sense of purpose. It actually gives me way more purpose than my job ever did. So, that is a small comfort. I feel like I may be tapering too slow, but I've made some up/down dosing mistakes that have gotten me a bit fearful.

[[on...]]

Also, I am trying to be useful here. If I can make someone's life a little better and/or give a good advice, it gives me a sense of purpose.

 

Glad you are feeling a little better. You always help everyone with caring support and helpful advice.  All of us are better off because you are here.  Have a great tomorrow.

 

[[on...]]

Wow!!!  I finally read this from Ashton: "4mg alprazolam is approximately equivalent to 80mg diazepam."  I've never looked at equivalencies with diazepam.  So if I hit 30 mg. of xanax in a day, 30 (mg.) X 20 (mg - diazepam equivalent to 1 mg. X) - 600??? 

 

That terrifies me.  It means at times I was taking the equivalent of 600 mg. of diazepam a day.  I have to wonder what else this did to my body.  I feel like I shouldn't be alive.  Just had to write - I read this and wanted to jump out of my skin    Couldn't keep this to myself.  I also spent too much time online reading about studies regarding chronic abusers.  I think I'd better leave Google alone for a while.  I'll try to choose just to feel lucky I'm here.

 

I feel bad complaining after I just wrote in my last post how we are all okay!!!!    I'll settle down now.  Everyone try your best and we will make it.  Okay, now I can settle down for real.

[[Lo...]]

Wow!!!  I finally read this from Ashton: "4mg alprazolam is approximately equivalent to 80mg diazepam."  I've never looked at equivalencies with diazepam.  So if I hit 30 mg. of xanax in a day, 30 (mg.) X 20 (mg - diazepam equivalent to 1 mg. X) - 600???

 

That terrifies me.  It means at times I was taking the equivalent of 600 mg. of diazepam a day.  I have to wonder what else this did to my body.  I feel like

 

Wow! 600mg  valium. You're lucky to be alive, indeed 

 

How long have you been functional until the withdrawal hit you? Just curious....

[[on...]]

I couldn't function at all in December of 2013 - when I cut from my highest dose (30+) down to 4 mg. a day.  I did that on my own and it was torture and I was really afraid of seizures.  My wife was watching me and holding my meds.  A couple of times she had me take more when she was scared.

 

I really haven't returned to normal functioning and it really makes me insane.  I know that this is more than simple math but it bothers me.  If you take my highest dose and figure out what I'm on now I've reduced something like 94% of my benzo intake. Without knowing the hard road we're all on I want my body to start feeling a little better now.

 

I've cut from 3 mg. K to 1.5 mg. K for a year and four months.  That's really slow and I wish I had better relief now.  I thought that by now my body should give me credit for how far I'm come and the fact that I've tapered very slowly for the past year+.  :'( 

 

I know I won't really get a new start until I jump and can really start to heal.  The way I feel now I know that will be a while.  I'm still dealing with really bad symptoms that come and go.

 

Some of the scary things like paranoia and irrational phobias left me in March of 2014.  I was never really suicidal but I used to ponder the fact that if I didn't have a family I could just check out and not deal with this.  I would never have done it.  But I was very happy that this type of thinking left me in June of 2014.

 

I worry about permanent problems and stopped Googling again last week.  I just have to try to be myself and ignore the research on all the bad things that could have been, or still could be.

 

I'm very, very lucky.  Hope you are all still here when I really do jump.