CONQUERING HEAVY ABUSE CLUB (CHAC?)

[[Lo...]]

Yes, Paul. You can always count on us. I think we have now what we didn't have then and what probably drove many of us to benzos: lack of support. I was so judicious and sparing with the use in the beginning, but the constant stress with lack of support and coping resources basically led me down the path we all know.

 

2 months ago, I thought I had no willpower to cut ativan and had to c/o all of it to valium. Now, I am realizing, "Hey, I can microtaper that ativan and hopefully have a meaningful life again".

 

I still think that I could have just walked off from the stuff in late November (as I went 4 days without a pill with some bad sxs, but not too bad), but, as MTFan said, am learning to forgive myself for that. Rinse and repeat 

 

I think it was shame and self-loathing keeping me from making progress, but am now gentler on myself and realize that it was the childhood wounds and shame from it, that were just feeding the anxiety, which was making me loathe myself because of anxiety. I think benzos were really just the final step in that whole cycle. Now it's time to decycle, right? 

[[MT...]]

Well said, LF. It's great to see you talking about self-forgiveness. It's something we all need to work on to beat back the shame and guilt monsters. There's so much that we can see now in hindsight that we missed at the time. I'm horrified by my arrogance back when I was taking all of those meds and some of my doctors expressed concern. I thought they were just being nervous nellies. I was so wrong but I understand more about medications now than I ever did before this mess. Rinse and repeat.

[[Lo...]]

Well said, MTFan. I'm rereading one of the books I bought in the 90's, talking about the dangers of long term benzo or AD use. Did I skip the chapter??? But then, 90's were good to me, and my anxiety was very tolerable.

 

One doc did say something like "benzos are a short term solution, and you have a long term problem". But he never really elaborated why. I wish he said "benzos are short-term solution because they're highly ADDICTING". Most literature I found at the time warned about craving for benzos and psychological addiction, but not enough about how they're physically addicting. But then, when you're dealing with an abrasive, abusive boss and jobs are not plentiful, what do you do???

 

I've always been a psychology buff, and I unfortunately bought into the whole psych paradigm. If you're anxious, you take anti-anxiety pills. If you're depressed, you get AD's. I think what got me on benzos and staying away from newer drugs was "hey benzos have been thee for decades, they've been proven to work, right?"

 

Interestingly how family members don't get it. I was just told not to be afraid/paranoid/whatever. Then I try to respond with "I feel fear regardless what thoughts I'm thinking or not thinking". This is hard to comprehend for people not in wd. They say "you were taking too low of a dose, and that was the problem". But, I think my long term PRN dosing messed me up and then I went too high for 2 months, and found myself in hell.

 

I no longer even believe in taking benzos "As needed". How do you define "as needed"? At first, it's once a week, then its' 2x week, then a few months of nothing, then 2x 3x a week, then 4x week. Finally you do get caught up in to daily use....

 

My life is at a complete standstill now. I guess being benzo-free is now the 1st and most important goal, and everything else will I hope follow. I hope we can rebuild from the rubble.

[[MT...]]

LF, I relate to a lot of what you wrote. I wish docs had talked about the addiction and wd bit. You're right on that those who haven't gone through this have a hard time believing that the anxiety/fear/panic thing can be separate from distressing thoughts. Everything can be cool and we can still have those emotional states. I'm seeing that improve some but it still happens.

 

Over the last two days I've been rereading a manuel related to my work. In it are techniques I used to use regularly as well as info. Not only do I not remember it I can't make it stick now when I review it. I feel so stupid and scared about working with a brain that can't leave. I wish I knew when my brain would come back. Some things have improved but not anything related to memory.

 

I did read a good quote though: "I was forced to enter the basement of my soul and look directly at what was hidden there, to choose, in the face of it all, not death but life." Henri Nouwen.

 

Feels like what we have to do throughout this process. So from the basement of my soul I'm thankful to be in this mess with such good people like you folks on this thread.

[[Lo...]]

Many years ago, I was prescribed Xanax 0.25mg. I think I took 6-7 pills total. I walked away unscathed. I think that left me with a sense of "hey, I can walk away from this stuff anytime".

 

Yes, my brain is in shambles too, but it's coming back bit by bit. I hope that because I was on a PRN dose until late last year, I may be a decent candidate for a recovery that hopefully won't last years. All I got to do now is manage situational anxiety and keep my microtaper.

[[on...]]

Hey all!  Since I've been trying to focus on work I've realized that it takes me three days to do what I used to do in one day.  I'm still feeling better but having troubles with my shrink.

 

First, I said this somewhere else but just reading what everyone has said even if I didn't have time to post was so encouraging to me.  I didn't feel good this morning, and after I read all of them I decided I could make it.  Thank you all.  Really, everyone's support of everyone else really makes me feel good.

 

A month ago I mentioned that I'm having muscle spasms and after 3 docs (neurologists) it is agreed that they need to rule out some of the more serious neurological diseases.  I told all of them about my benzo use, but I have symptoms that match some serious diseases.  So, I'm still being tested.  I can handle the wait right now even if it's hard to not get results.

 

I told my shrink that I was having trouble decreasing at 1.5 mg of K per day.  I took my wife again, and we both said that I needed to slow down the taper and get my feet under me.  I really think I need to hold where I am so I can get back to work and even not be afraid to talk on the phone.

 

I know that an indefinite hold is not the way to get off of benzos.  The way I see things I've still decreased 94% since I was at my worst, and I've cut 50% in the past year.  I just need to get adjusted.  Ashton says "choose your own path."  Well I'm actually scared now.

 

Sorry I've cried about this before, but when I do the Ashton equivalency for the xanax I was taking this equaled up to 600 mg. valium daily.  I'm really afraid that I did permanent damage to my mind.  At those amounts I don't think I should be here.  I'm lucky.

 

So my shrink.  He's very upset that I want to hold at 1.5 mg. K daily.  He has no clue how I feel  I tell him that I have anxiety when I have to work.  He said benzos are just like alcohol.  Well, I strongly disagree in one regard.  The alcoholics I know (father included) would have to last an entire day at work without a drink.  My father would sober up to work and drink as soon as work was done.  He wasn't conditioned to believe he needed a Budweiser in his hand while he did his job.

 

On the other hand, I had my pills with me all day, and I conditioned myself to believe that I needed pills to handle every hard deadline. and I kept them in my pocket day and night.  I took some every time I had a stressful meeting, presentation, speech, etc.  So, I've got to break that problem as well. 

 

So, I'm scared.  This post is like an upside-down rainbow.  I started high in the air feeling good, and dropped down to earth.  Now I have to figure out how to feel good and turn the rainbow back to the sky.  Silly analogy.

 

Hope everyone is well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Lo...]]

You've made an amazing progress, Paul. Nevermind what your shrink says. I'm having trouble getting down from a much lower dose, so I think you did fantastic. Does he know how high your Xanax usage got to?

 

I was pretty judicious with my benzo use, escalated in one month, and its taking me forever to recover. You're brave 

[[on...]]

It took over me.  I got up to 30 mg. a day when I had stress.  My body was just so used to it I could take a ton.  My one kidney paid the price.  Thank you for the support.  Like they say - everyone is different.  I was able to get through the xanax cut and withdrawal without docs - but am now stuck where I am and can't progress any more.

 

I think the docs look at my history and think that if I cut so much in the beginning, making cuts now should be easy.  I'm with you here.  The cuts now are really bad.  That's why I'm putting them off.

 

I know one theory is that I will never get rid of tolerance wd even if I can get stable where I am.

 

I just hope that if I hold here for a while I will feel better and go back to cutting in a couple of months.  Hope it works.

 

Hope you are well and take care.

[[MT...]]

Paul, I agree with LF. You've accomplished so much in cutting your Xanax. It's taken remarkable courage and determination. So few doctors have any clue about this process and give some baaaad advice (like coming off benzos is the same as alcohol or faster is better). You're wise to listen to your body as Ashton recommends. How are you doing with not taking any extra at the end of your month? i know that's been difficult so far.

[[on...]]

Thank you both.  I get 6 extra pills every month.  I confessed that this was the first month where I didn't take an extra pill after leaving the pharmacy just because I could and I'd convince myself that I needed it. 

 

I made it until today and took an extra pill today hours before my interview.  I felt I just wanted not to be afraid to freak out.  I understand that learning to deal with this means I can't go through life taking extra pills every time I have stress.  I did get hired part-time to do project work.  The hard thing is that he asked me to come meet a client tomorrow and start right away.  We'll see how I do.

 

Working and presenting myself is so difficult because I'm wearing clothes and trying to act professional doing things I haven't done in 2 years.  I haven't done my job without xanax or a benzo in 15 years. 

 

I know this is not the right way, but my wife (who did see me through the "cut your xanax 90% in 30 days) is wondering how bad I'd be if I hoard my pills and have an extra couple to use when I do have to present myself.  Taking an extra K really messes you up because it doesn't work right away, and it also stays in your system for longer and I feel that you pay more later.  If I could follow the rules, I wish my doc would give me 5 small rescue doses of ativan (only short-term I haven't used) instead of my 6 extra K pills every month.  If I even asked him such a thing he would stop treating me.   

 

It's been about three weeks since I've really contributed and supported others.  Instead I log on, read what everyone has posted, and then only talk about myself. 

 

I feel greedy, and I'll make up for it.  BUT, knowing you guys care and have my back means the world to me.

 

 

[[Lo...]]

Thank you both.  I get 6 extra pills every month.  I confessed that this was the first month where I didn't take an extra pill after leaving the pharmacy just because I could and I'd convince myself that I needed it. 

 

I made it until today and took an extra pill today hours before my interview.  I felt I just wanted not to be afraid to freak out.  I understand that learning to deal with this means I can't go through life taking extra pills every time I have stress.  I did get hired part-time to do project work.  The hard thing is that he asked me to come meet a client tomorrow and start right away.  We'll see how I do.

 

Working and presenting myself is so difficult because I'm wearing clothes and trying to act professional doing things I haven't done in 2 years.  I haven't done my job without xanax or a benzo in 15 years. 

 

I know this is not the right way, but my wife (who did see me through the "cut your xanax 90% in 30 days) is wondering how bad I'd be if I hoard my pills and have an extra couple to use when I do have to present myself.  Taking an extra K really messes you up because it doesn't work right away, and it also stays in your system for longer and I feel that you pay more later.  If I could follow the rules, I wish my doc would give me 5 small rescue doses of ativan (only short-term I haven't used) instead of my 6 extra K pills every month.  If I even asked him such a thing he would stop treating me.   

 

It's been about three weeks since I've really contributed and supported others.  Instead I log on, read what everyone has posted, and then only talk about myself. 

 

I feel greedy, and I'll make up for it.  BUT, knowing you guys care and have my back means the world to me.

 

 

Congrats Paul on mustering the courage to go on an interview. I guess a single updose isn't an end of the world. Maybe, instead of a benzo, you could do a beta blocker. I got into a habit of occasionally taking 1/2 of 50mg metoprolol (beta blocker) when I fell like I need another benzo. Ativan's turned on me before I even started to taper, so there's zero help from it. I could updose with a valium, but prefer not too. There's always Gabapentin, but that's got mixed reviews. Great job again 

 

I need to work on my lack of energy/panic attacks to get back to work myself. I think once I was at work, it be ok, but getting there is panic inducing. Just thinking what my options are. Still too agoraphobic at the moment, and hoping that lowering the ativan will take that away a bit. I feel guilty for not working, but the energy is so low 

[[MT...]]

Paul, you're really doing well (better than you feel) with interviewing for that job and accepting it. I relate to what you said about how hard the work is to dress and act professionally while suffering from wd. I often feel that it's all an act to look normal enough to "pass." Underneath the facade I can be shaking in my boots and feel like I'm going to crumble. It's not always that bad but it doesn't ever feel natural yet. I'm glad I'm having occasional good days but even on those days it's more like not being as distracted than not being distracted at all by my symptoms. So another reminder, we are all pulling for you and for each other :smitten:

[[Lo...]]

How are you doing with benzo flu and fatigue? That's been slowly improving, but it's still bad.

[[MT...]]

How are you doing with benzo flu and fatigue? That's been slowly improving, but it's still bad.

 

I know for me the past few days my fatigue and benzo flu have improved some after being exceptionally bad for about 6 weeks. How about the rest of you? Paul?

[[Lo...]]

Today was another cryfest. My life is ruined, I'll go broke, blah, blah kind of day. I am feeling a little better, but it feels that, as my mind is coming back, it's starting to worry more about the lack of ground support, lack of money, etc. etc.

 

I am going to go to an addiction recovery meeting tomorrow. Maybe I meet a real life friend who can provide some support.

[[on...]]

LF,  I think that's a normal thing and I'm glad you're going to meet live people.  I love this BB, everyone on it, and it has really helped me in more ways that I could ever count.  But, I think we all gotta be careful not to let it take over our human contact and relationships with others.

 

I had a friend really push me into AA meetings.  He used to tell me that he knew exactly how I felt because "xanax is just like alcohol."  Well, I disagree even though I know alcohol is dangerous.  AA isn't exactly for me.  However, getting out of the house, and just seeing others who have addiction problems made me feel better.

 

I know you can get through this.  Get out, meet people, and get through this rough time.  I know you will make it.  So does everyone else.  We're all behind you.  Can you pull out another literary quote to make you feel better?  Seems like you may get an escape from this.  I feel better when I read what you post.

 

MT, I am working some.  My problem is that I psych myself up to do some work, and use all my energy doing that.  Then I feel absolutely wasted.  It's hard for me to dress up.  Even that scares me.  Ever showering knowing I'm going to work.

 

I'm doing about 15 hours a week.  If somehow I can just keep this up and get the rest of my life back on track.  I'm really agoraphobic right now except when I'm forced to get out of the house.  Really scary.

 

Seems like everyone is hitting bumps in the road.  Glad we have each other.    Everyone hang on.  Even if it's a rough ride.

[[Lo...]]

LF,  I think that's a normal thing and I'm glad you're going to meet live people.  I love this BB, everyone on it, and it has really helped me in more ways that I could ever count.  But, I think we all gotta be careful not to let it take over our human contact and relationships with others.

 

I had a friend really push me into AA meetings.  He used to tell me that he knew exactly how I felt because "xanax is just like alcohol."  Well, I disagree even though I know alcohol is dangerous.  AA isn't exactly for me.  However, getting out of the house, and just seeing others who have addiction problems made me feel better.

 

I know you can get through this.  Get out, meet people, and get through this rough time.  I know you will make it.  So does everyone else.  We're all behind you.  Can you pull out another literary quote to make you feel better?  Seems like you may get an escape from this.  I feel better when I read what you post.

 

MT, I am working some.  My problem is that I psych myself up to do some work, and use all my energy doing that.  Then I feel absolutely wasted.  It's hard for me to dress up.  Even that scares me.  Ever showering knowing I'm going to work.

 

I'm doing about 15 hours a week.  If somehow I can just keep this up and get the rest of my life back on track.  I'm really agoraphobic right now except when I'm forced to get out of the house.  Really scary.

 

Seems like everyone is hitting bumps in the road.  Glad we have each other.    Everyone hang on.  Even if it's a rough ride.

 

Thanks oneyear. I had massive panic just getting my teeth cleaned. Some new cavities (small) and gum issues and enamel peeling off a bit. I suspect benzos, of course. Now, I am scared I'll turn into one of those toothless people who can't get work. My mind is really awful

Dealing with very heavy DP/DR/intrusive memories. Flood of memories from 5, 10, 15 years ago, and mind wishing it can correct the mistakes. It's very OCD and hard to stop. Real hard. I hope the teeth problems will be less as the benzo dosage gets lower. I'm so scared of dental work now  :'(

 

Going to work would be good for me, but I am fighting agoraphobia, too. Getting to that AA meeting was good. Just a year ago, I could drive anywhere, and now. I think when I realize I was dependent, my heart just sank.

 

They say nobody really dies from benzo wd. It's really more of money/health fears. Like you, I think I was overambitious for my anxious temperament, and I think it cost me. I needed some engaging but low-stress job from the get go, and was going for the challenge. So much tearful regret. It could be valium that's making me depressed, but without it, my heart would be jumping out of my chest with lorazepam only.

 

I hope I make it. I was crying most of the day today.

[[MT...]]

LF, I know what those crying days are like. I've had some that when I'm alone in the house I'll cry and wail. Sometimes it helps to get it out. This recovery process is such a long, terrifying ordeal. All of us have written about how difficult it is to get out of the house and function in what should be the simplest ways. Going to appointments is scary, getting dressed and ready is scary, making freaking breakfast is scary, making plans with someone and going is scary, pretty much any contact with someone becomes scary during all of this. At a few days shy of 7 months I'm seeing the intensity and frequency of that fear decreasing. I find the smallest worries, though, can whip up to an anxiety cyclone. I'll worry about whether I can do things around the house or my work tasks. My brain seems to like to revisit the terror of "will I ever be able to think clearly again?" I'm terrified that there's brain damage and it will be a long time before I know. I worry that my children see me as this unintelligent person because I have such trouble tracking and remembering.

 

I agree with you one year that we all need people contact outside of BB. That's actually been part of why I haven't been on much. I only have one friend who has gone through wd and she lives across the country but we email and talk. I'm trying to push myself more out of my comfort zone--like phone calls, making social plans, hiking, taking on manageable tasks that I've put off. I totally get what you mean about being wasted from all of the effort it takes to get ready and then get through a work day. I'm totally fried by mine and sometimes want to come home and curl up in the fetal position, depending on how it went. I'm really hard on myself as I imagine you both are too.

 

I found this quote today. I dedicate it to all of you as you face the fear of living through wd: "You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.'"

 

Eleanor Roosevelt

 

 

 

[[on...]]

Really good quote.  Thank you MT.

 

LF, I know how having memories arise from the past can be tough.  I still do things like call our dog "Puppy" (that was the name of our dog when I was a child) and have dreams as far back as elementary school.  Out of the blue I remember people I knew as a child that have been gone from my memory decades ago.  Then I dream about people I've forgotten as if I knew them today.

 

I feel like these old memories are going to come, and the sooner I get through them maybe my mind will stop.  Like there are so many I'm going to face before my mind really settles.  That may or may not be true, but I believe it and it makes these things easier to take.

 

I'm having a tough day today but I've lived through this horror so I can take the next thing that comes along.  Thanks for that quote MT.

 

Hang in there everyone. 

[[MT...]]

I'm sorry to hear you're having a rough day, Paul but I'm glad you're still fighting to get through this. The memory slam of wd is a tough ride. I found it, and the nightmares, eased up a few months after jumping.

 

I'm having a rough few days. My sleep has deteriorated and I'm super tired. I was hoping I had turned a corner with that but I guess it's going to take more time. ARgh.

[[Lo...]]

I feel like my brain is getting a little more lucid but body feels like it's 30 years older than it really is. The burning in the stomach is getting old. The chest pain is gone (thanks God). Plenty of mental torment. My brain is being creative in a very morbid kind of way, catastrophizing about everything. I hope the sxs lessen a bit as the dose goes down. I hope I am not in relative withdrawal (yikes), where the sxs stay awful all the way through.

[[on...]]

LF I know what it's like to catastrophize everything. I have a pile of pine needles outside my house and I sit and worry about what would happen if someone lit them on fire. Now I can't sleep. Makes me kind of crazy. When I was a child I used to dream that I could stop time for everyone else but keep time going for me - so I could finish my homework, do my chores, etc.

 

Now I wish I could stop time for a year so I could just recover.  Hang in there LF; I believe in you.  We're all in this together. 

[[MT...]]

It's very difficult not to react to the symptoms, thoughts and feelings that come with them (like catastrophizing). I'm reminded of how I once learned about how to work with someone with hallucinations. Basically you teach them to observe the hallucinations as they come and go, not to add to them or try to make them go away really. That just seems to give them more energy. Of course it's hard not to react to hallucination (or wd symptoms) but when we freak out about them that adds to the load. I do this quite imperfectly but I see it getting better. Sometimes I'll catch myself after minutes, or hours, or a day of being swept up by them. Then I try to return to the present and the breath and do some mindfulness things. Like: noticing the surfaces beneath me, my feet on the floor, what I'm hearing and seeing and the feeling of my breath in my belly. My mind may wander off a thousand times but every time I bring it back I strengthen the habit. That being said, misery is incredibly distracting. I feel for you when that misery is so intense.

[[on...]]

It's very difficult not to react to the symptoms, thoughts and feelings that come with them (like catastrophizing). I'm reminded of how I once learned about how to work with someone with hallucinations. Basically you teach them to observe the hallucinations as they come and go, not to add to them or try to make them go away really. That just seems to give them more energy. Of course it's hard not to react to hallucination (or wd symptoms) but when we freak out about them that adds to the load. I do this quite imperfectly but I see it getting better. Sometimes I'll catch myself after minutes, or hours, or a day of being swept up by them. Then I try to return to the present and the breath and do some mindfulness things. Like: noticing the surfaces beneath me, my feet on the floor, what I'm hearing and seeing and the feeling of my breath in my belly. My mind may wander off a thousand times but every time I bring it back I strengthen the habit. That being said, misery is incredibly distracting. I feel for you when that misery is so intense.

 

Thanks. I have so much trouble doing what I have been taught. I's like I just put it aside everything I have learned.  What you mention about starting by noticing surfaces beneath you and working up to your belly is very close to something I was taught. In working with meditation the therapist pointed out that many times the scripts that she was using or a recorded one she gave us would talk about starting relaxation with your toes and working our way up. What she reminded us is that even if this takes 20 minutes in meditation, that any time you have; even in seconds in an elevator, that you can do a "body-check" where you start up your toes, quick flex of every muscle set up to your head and realize every body part is working just fine and if your entire body is fine you can relax and get through a tough situation where you can't lay down and close your eyes.  Just takes seconds when you are stressed.  This helped me sometimes in the day; but I have just forgotten to use it. Thanks for posting what is useful and reminded me I need to stop forgetting that I have power to change how I deal with stress.  It is more than waiting for my next pill and I must remember this.

 

I don't mean to suggest that those who are struggling to get out of bed and really are handling one dose at a time aren't trying.  Just keep breathing.  I feel that every single day of breathing and staying on proper meds is huge accomplishment.  But I think that maybe there are more of us than me at this stage here.

 

I just feel like I have so much information that I don't use.  I learned something really important about my ability to relax yesterday.  I was forced to relax and I made it.

 

I had what I felt was the dreaded EMG test on my lowers and up the middle of my spine.  I had trouble earlier in the day being with family. I don't mean this to be fear-provoking, but hoping maybe it taught me and may teach others how strong the brain is when you must relax. Perhaps that can be used when we need to relax but our mind is saying we can't.  I don't want anyone to think of my story when they try to relax, but it really taught me something about myself and my brain's ability to do what it needs to do.

 

My eyes were closed and with an EMG the doc gives you some electrical shocks and you do have needles inserted into muscle tissue.  I just remember the neurologist gently touch my leg and telling me that I must relax.  When I was laying on the docs table with needles in my legs, that I better relax or I'd really be in trouble.  I relaxed the entire time and was emotionally better when I left.  I was forced to see that while in that situation that indeed I could make myself relax. I knew the alternative of getting up and running or having to do the test was far worse than just somehow relaxing.

 

So . . . when I am forced to relax because if I don't relax I would be in real trouble shows me that I have the ability to relax if I need to. 

 

Now, how do I get that much motivation to relax that I actually do it in real life?  i don't want to have to be on a docs table and have him order me to relax to get it done.  There has to be a way. 

 

I"m assuming I'm one of many who thinks that they can meditate, relax, etc., but that life is always so stressful that I just don't do it.  This has taught me that I have more strength than I thought.  However, I'm just not at the stage where I can use it.  I bet that today everyone here can use something they learned to deal that they can bring back into their daily routines.

 

Hope everyone is well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[MT...]]

Paul, what a great learning experience you had. You're right, if you can relax in that situation, you can in any situation. I'm glad the test is behind you. Let us know what you learn.

 

I think some of what we're all describing are the issues with motivation during wd. Most of us were pretty motivated people before and now find ourselves with little to no motivation. Motivation for work, home, family and even some self-care. I feel like I'm herding hostile cats when it's time to get myself to exercise or meditate, go to work or work around the house. Even the motivation to talk with or get together with friends is absent. So I do a lot of "as if" functioning. I try to function as if I felt motivated to do those things and then they usually work out. But after some time doing this I reach points where I'm so exhausted from all of the effort that I'm back to just surviving or chilling until I feel I can begin again. We're all in this together and we're learning a lot about ourselves and others as we go through the tight squeeze of this rebirth experience.