Daily Taper Support Group

[[So...]]

Nope, I have had no problems. I asked, on here, before trying it, and was given the thumbs up.

 

So, that is why I started my tapering using it after I had a reaction to the Ora Plus.

 

I have been using it for a month now without problems.

 

Nana 

[[Ju...]]

 

Juliea that was not helpful...Sparingly doesn't tell me anything

Really?  Let me help you then, if you do not understand the word sparingly.  In this case it means poor solubility according to the source I referenced.

[[Ks...]]

Well that was kind of rude. I know what the word means. That does not tell me anything like what builder wrote about diazepam.  Sparingly is a subjective term and so is poor.

 

Anyhow, its solubility is apparently not that poor if it is working for others, so I guess I just will trust those with actual experience using it and try it.

[[mr...]]

SG57 explained the dissolved problem and cleared things up for me.

Benzo's do not dissolve in certain fluids, such as water or milk.

They break up into little pieces instead.

This is why some will grind up the pills to get it into a powder, but it still does not dissolve.

I tried dissolving an aspirin and a tylenol in alcohol and it didn't work.

It just broke up into little pieces.

 

 

 

[[Ks...]]

Is it suspended in the alcohol then?

[[Ju...]]

Well that was kind of rude. I know what the word means. That does not tell me anything like what builder wrote about diazepam.  Sparingly is a subjective term and so is poor.

 

Anyhow, its solubility is apparently not that poor if it is working for others, so I guess I just will trust those with actual experience using it and try it.

There was a discussion about solubility and I looked up a reference to be helpful.  I did not choose the word the professional scientists used do describe the nature of the solubility of Lorazepam in alcohol.  What I posted was a quote and I understand it perfectly.  Builder said Lorazepam had poor solubility in alcohol.  This is the same thing the reference I posted said but using the word sparingly --- which means, very little.

 

Xanax is poorly insoluble in both water and alcohol, yet many members titrate Xanax with water, very successfully.  It does't change the facts that both Xanax and Lorazepam are basically insoluble in these two liquids.  It just means that the alcohol or water do not melt the chemical. 

 

Yes, rather than a solution, when the benzo does not completely melt, it's called a suspension, (tiny particles, (sometimes not visible by the naked eye), float in the liquid).  This is why it's important to move very quickly when titrating an insoluble benzo.  Does not mean it's not possible!

[[So...]]

These pills will only suspend in an actual suspension fluid like Ora Plus.

 

But, if you get your technique down, you can use Vodka and water to make a semi-suspension fluid. But, you have to work quick, and learn little tips and tricks to keep the dissolved pills from settling to the bottom.

 

I put the needle into the fluid, draw some up and then push it back into the fluid. This keeps it stirred up nicely, while I draw up my cut back up.

 

I like being able to actually see the dissolved Ativan floating around. It gives me more peace of mind, than what the Ora Plus did. I couldn't see it in the Ora Plus.

 

I also never shake, only stir. Shaking leaves too much on the sides of the jar, and can lead to inaccuracy.

 

The point is, we all find our own way of doing things. There is no right or wrong way, unless it has been completely and totally proven. You just learn by trial and error. Just as I did.

 

Nana 

[[Ks...]]

All of this just stresses me out

 

So basically instead of removing what would ideally be a .002mg cut, one could just be removing whatever size particle the lorazepam breaks up into?

[[Ks...]]

Is there a video for proper "technique" when one cannot afford to make mistakes such as myself...

 

I have a very hard time in my mind converting words to actual visual representation

[[So...]]

Yes, I think that is true...to a point.

 

If you want a true solution, they do make liquid Ativan. But, even if a pharmacy was to compound it for you, it really is no different than making it yourself.

 

Every pill is different. I can see why a Tylenol wouldn't dissolve in Vodka. But, a baby aspirin does.

 

This is what I tried first. 

 

Nana 

[[So...]]

Is there a video for proper "technique" when one cannot afford to make mistakes such as myself...

 

I have a very hard time in my mind converting words to actual visual representation

 

Good question. You might try googling it.

 

Nana 

[[al...]]

but clonazepam does dissolve right>? so I do not have to worry about this? I just put the pill in the milk in the morning, let it dissolve throughout the day...give it a shake before I want to drink it and then extract my 1 or 5 or 8 mil's and then drink the rest right?

[[Ju...]]

but clonazepam does dissolve right>? so I do not have to worry about this? I just put the pill in the milk in the morning, let it dissolve throughout the day...give it a shake before I want to drink it and then extract my 1 or 5 or 8 mil's and then drink the rest right?

Klonopin and Valium are the easy one's to titrate, Bama.  They dissolve in 4% milk, (lipid).  Xanax and Ativan are not lipid, (fat), soluble.  This is the main reason I did not titrate my Xanax, that and my shaky hands while I was withdrawing. 

[[So...]]

Now, I can identify with the shaky hands!! 

 

Nana 

[[al...]]

thanks juliae..........that's what I thought.....

[[Ks...]]

Are the shaky hands due to muscle deterioration? I'm wondering because I've had this a long time. Before withdrawal started. I can't use utensils without shaking.

[[So...]]

Mine is more from being nervous, and the drug.

 

Nana 

[[mr...]]

Are the shaky hands due to muscle deterioration? I'm wondering because I've had this a long time. Before withdrawal started. I can't use utensils without shaking.

My mom was diagnosed with an essential tremor she had pre benzos.

5 months after tapering off lorazepam, her tremor was gone.

I did do quite a few different things including getting her D levels up, iodine and other supplements, as well as diet change.

Unfortunately, she reinstated and I have to wait until she is healed to see if it is gone.

[[Ks...]]

I started taking vitamin d. I have iodine but I've heard it can sometime worsen thyroid problems which I seem to have developed...the tremor is from psych med use/withdrawal I'm pretty sure, but I also lost lots of muscle before withdrawal so I don't know for sure.

[[mr...]]

I started taking vitamin d. I have iodine but I've heard it can sometime worsen thyroid problems which I seem to have developed...the tremor is from psych med use/withdrawal I'm pretty sure, but I also lost lots of muscle before withdrawal so I don't know for sure.

Yours is probably from the meds and will disappear after recovery.

 

With iodine it is extremely important to take the companion supplements just incase you have an underlying hashimoto's or graves disease.

The companions and the protocol is here

http://breastcancerchoices.org/iprotocol.html

 

Here is more info on thyroid and adrenals

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

 

[[bu...]]

Thanks again Nana, I take it you're not having problems?

 

Juliea that was not helpful...Sparingly doesn't tell me anything

 

"Sparingly" means exactly what I said... "... poor solubility in alcohol."

[[bu...]]

These pills will only suspend in an actual suspension fluid like Ora Plus.

 

But, if you get your technique down, you can use Vodka and water to make a semi-suspension fluid. But, you have to work quick, and learn little tips and tricks to keep the dissolved pills from settling to the bottom.

 

I put the needle into the fluid, draw some up and then push it back into the fluid. This keeps it stirred up nicely, while I draw up my cut back up.

 

I like being able to actually see the dissolved Ativan floating around. It gives me more peace of mind, than what the Ora Plus did. I couldn't see it in the Ora Plus.

 

I also never shake, only stir. Shaking leaves too much on the sides of the jar, and can lead to inaccuracy.

 

The point is, we all find our own way of doing things. There is no right or wrong way, unless it has been completely and totally proven. You just learn by trial and error. Just as I did.

 

Nana 

 

 

Not being argumentative, but just to expand a little further:

 

A solution means the med is uniformly and homogeneously absorbed into the liquid.  Once it goes into solution, it will not need to be stirred or shaken, it will remain uniformly homogenous.  Diazepam is completely soluble in alcohol, but not in water.  Lorazepam is not soluble in water, and only slightly soluble in ETOH.

 

A suspension means the dry material "floats" in a viscous liquid.  Given enough time, it eventually settle out, but will can remain fairly homogeneous for some time.

 

When you mix diazepam with water, or lorazepam with ETOH, what you actually get is a 'dispersion.  The dry material will disintegrate in the liquid, but it will NOT be uniformly and homogeneously distributed.  So there will likely be significant variations in benzo concentrations any time you withdraw your dose.  Think adding sugar to a cold liquid (iced tea)  It doesn't matter how much you stir it, the sugar will keep settling to the bottom.

[[Ks...]]

This is really stressing me out more. I was turning to liquid to have more accuracy because the scale is not accurate. Now I'm wondering if I should even bother.

[[or...]]

ks just curious. Why don't you c/o to valium? Then you could use the pharma grade liquid and have no worries. I can't tolerate it so make my own liquid v with vodka. Sorry if you've already answered this question before. But it seems to me that liquid v might take a lot of the stress out of your life? You could be really accurate and have confidence in a true solution.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Okatz

[[So...]]

There are so many on here having great success with water titration and tapering.

 

When things become too technical, or scientific, it becomes a really confusing mess for newbies to feel comfortable with.

 

People are telling them yes it can be done, and others throwing in big words and statements that make them think that it can't be done.

 

I know, because I went through this at the beginning as well. And, it had me ready to either just go c/t again, or end it all!! Until someone finally convinced me that my method was viable. I make sure to keep my water/vodka/ativan well stirred when making my cuts. So, it works for me.

 

This thread was meant for support, and was stated at the beginning that all questions about starting a daily taper should be posted in the tapering thread, where they can receive more diverse answers.

 

So many of the threads on BB have become so controversial, that it makes me want to throw my hands up and say to heck with this site.

 

If people can say "no, it can't be done that way", then they should please elaborate in simple terms how a liquid taper from Lorazepam can be accomplished.

 

Sorry for ranting, but I have just about had it with seeing newbies being completely confused and then left out in the cold to fend for themselves.

 

Nana